Some people want to be tops in everything. That's a perfectly legit way to play. But they are choosing to play that way and choosing to do the content the way they need to get there. The game does not force them to do so. Cryptic does not force them to do so.
I don't play that way. When I log in each day I don't think "What do I need to do to progress?" I think "What do I want to do?" Sometimes I choose to do progression related things, sometimes I choose not to and just play whatever floats my boat, whether it progresses me or not. We all have the freedom to make that choice for ourselves.
Exactamondo.
It seems that this is one of those 'agree to disagree' situations.
You have always had this freedom. Grind is a choice.
Indeed, the game can take either patience or money..... the two items are interchangeable.... if you have neither you will not enjoy it, or much of anything else in life, really.
1. People play for different reasons. I play the game to have fun. Advancing can be fun, sure, but for me it isn't the end all be all of gaming. The experience is why I play. I can have a perfectly fun time playing STO without earning anything toward advancing my characters. At the same, I do advance my characters. I have T5 reps and associated gear on 18 characters. I chose to play the content to do that. I distinctly remember looking at the system and choosing to do it. It was not mandatory, and I can still play all of the available content without it. I'm also not an "RPer" there are more types of gamers than just hardcore and RP.
2. Yes the Foundry is fun, it is one of the main focuses of my gameplay experience, not because it advances my players, but because it is just fun to see what people come up with. What I get out of it is not tangible, but why does everything have to be? Why must every single moment of gameplay be "working" toward something?
3. I don't even consider things to be "grinds" if they are a) easy or b) fun. The anniversary event was so ridiculously easy as to not qualify. I chose to get one of the ships for each faction.
4. Ask yourself. Do I really want the reward for doing X over and over again? And also ask, is the content fun? Is it going to be fun doing it five times? I looked at the Solanae set and what content was needed to get it and said "Yeah, I'm ok doing this a couple times to get that reward." It was my choice to do so. Nothing forced me to grind for that set. My progression elsewhere in the game was not halted because I didn't have that set.
Some people want to be tops in everything. That's a perfectly legit way to play. But they are choosing to play that way and choosing to do the content the way they need to get there. The game does not force them to do so. Cryptic does not force them to do so.
I don't play that way. When I log in each day I don't think "What do I need to do to progress?" I think "What do I want to do?" Sometimes I choose to do progression related things, sometimes I choose not to and just play whatever floats my boat, whether it progresses me or not. We all have the freedom to make that choice for ourselves.
Hear hear. I agree with this assessment of players of this game who choose to do what they want, even when they want to be the best.
It's been so long I've played this game, but I keep telling myself, 'things will improve'. So far, the contrary. Season 9.5 sounds like the game is heading in the direction of a game you'd have for your tablet or cell phone.
I don't mind grinding, no really, I don't. I don't ever feel you should get stuff handed to you, but I need to have fun doing it. That is after all, the purpose of the game.
I fail to see how, clicking on menus counts as fun. I fail to see how playing the exact same mission over and over again counts as fun. I fail to see how increasing everything by 10 levels and obtaining T6 ships will make the game experience more enjoyable.
It's sad when I spend $4.99 on an 10+ year old game and it provides a lot more excitement and entertainment than this game.
But, I can still hope this game comes around and it'll be fun for me again.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
Y'know, I think I've finally understood the notion of these posts, especially after staying away from these forums for so long (except for a few replies here and there):
We got two groups of players: the players who still like STO despite its flaws and the players who have had enough and decide to quit or wean themselves off of it. The players who are weaning themselves off of it also get a really big thrill out of getting a rise out of the players who still enjoy STO for what it is and, instead of going quietly into the night, they decide to troll and attack.
We get posts like this about how they're so awesome for quitting the grind and how they're so much better off without this game made by Craptic and their Chinese Overlords and so on and so forth to lure out not only the players who will defend the game for its flaws, but also for those who are in the same mindset as the OPs. The latter will gladly attack the former for being mindless sheep and how their logic is so stupid and shoot back any attempts to fire back.
In other words, people like OP gets a real thrill out of trolling because they think that, because they quit the game, it makes them SO much better than those who genuinely enjoy the game and try to defend it.
So, can you tell me, what do you do when you login? some doffs assignments, some queus, and thats it?? well, if you tell me that you only login for a few minutes... because everything else , it is GRIND. And the other things we can do are so broken that are not worthy to do anymore. I am not deciding anything because there is nothing to decide. Again, when you play STO, you are grinding 99% of the times. Sorry its a fact like a temple, again, you should check what game you playing. And the most weird part is, every MMORPG IS A GRIND, why this will be different?? the problem is, the grind on STO is not massive only, it is bad-made with a lot of fails everywhere.
Going into the Undine Battlezone may be grind. Or it may be fun blowing up Undine ships.
For me, it was a lot of the latter, with the former a great additional benefit.
When you do something just because you want the reward at the end, it may feel like a grind. But if you do something you like, and get a reward at the end, that's just playing a fun game.
If you don't like blowing up enemy ships, or kill NPCs on ground maps, then maybe you actually dislike this game's gameplay. Or at least got tired off it. But no matter whether they make elaborate story missions like Fluid Dynamics or whatever, or if they give you a Battle Zone. A core experience of that will almost always face the combat parts of the game, the central mechanical elements of most MMOs. If that fighting stuff is not enjoyable to you, then what are you even bothering to play any more? Guess what - even if they gave you all reputation items for free, and a set would require only doing a mission once and never again, you'd still need to deal with the game mechanics.
If all you want is a story mission where you just force yourself to the combat stuff to get to the story, stop grinding, and come back when the next story mission is out. You won't need that crazy reputation gear and all the Dilithium to experience story missions.
Your greatest wish perhaps, that there is a new mission with cool rewards every day or week, just will never happen. Because Cryptic needs money to make these missions, and people logging in weekly just to play one mission are not gonna spend money on C-Store Items or for gaining Dilithium or whatever. And they also don't attract other people that might, because they are barely there, only doing some solo stuff, no one will notice their presence or absence.
The only thing such people may be willing to spend money on is the mission itself - but Cryptic doesn't want to sell story content, and maybe for a good economical reason - it wouldn't pay itself.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Y'know, I think I've finally understood the notion of these posts, especially after staying away from these forums for so long (except for a few replies here and there):
We got two groups of players: the players who still like STO despite its flaws and the players who have had enough and decide to quit or wean themselves off of it. The players who are weaning themselves off of it also get a really big thrill out of getting a rise out of the players who still enjoy STO for what it is and, instead of going quietly into the night, they decide to troll and attack.
We get posts like this about how they're so awesome for quitting the grind and how they're so much better off without this game made by Craptic and their Chinese Overlords and so on and so forth to lure out not only the players who will defend the game for its flaws, but also for those who are in the same mindset as the OPs. The latter will gladly attack the former for being mindless sheep and how their logic is so stupid and shoot back any attempts to fire back.
In other words, people like OP gets a real thrill out of trolling because they think that, because they quit the game, it makes them SO much better than those who genuinely enjoy the game and try to defend it.
Absolutely.
"Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
I've been at this for a couple of years now. And the closest thing to a "grind" I've experienced here was during the first Risa event, trying to get the corvette on all my toons. (And even that was loosened up this year - earn it on one toon, and the others just had to do the required event once.)
Maybe it's a difference in playstyle. I play for maybe an hour or so when I log in; I run a mission or two, then someone around here needs something and I log out. My main's gotten through the Borg arc, but that's as far as I've advanced through the storyline. (I really ought to get back to that sometime...) Not having the "best" gear has never mattered to me in the slightest.
Basically, I'm of the opinion that I play a game for fun. Competitive games, like Scrabble or Munchkin, I play to win (and, in Munchkin, for the glory of wielding a Flaming Shiny Mallet of Kneecapping of Destiny of Doom!); noncompetitive games, like MMOs, have their own brand of fun to be had. If the only fun you have is in defeating competitors, perhaps you should look into something more PvP-oriented than Star Trek.
This is an interesting topic, and one I happen to have been thinking about lately. It's a pity that it has to become a contest over who dislikes or likes the game most, but I suppose that's the nature of the forums these days.
One of the things I've been wondering is whether the concept of a "grind" is even that useful. It seems something very much a part of computer game lingo, but I'm not really a gamer, and so maybe I'm more inclined to give the subject a little bit more critical thought.
If by grind, we mean doing the same things over and over, well, that's kind of life. I get up every morning, go through my routines, go to work, do pretty much the same thing every day with some minor variations, come home, etc. Most of life really doesn't offer that much variety. I've known people who needed more variation, who became hopelessly bored with "ordinary" life, and had to make all sort of changes just to feel ok. Usually, they paid some hefty prices for their need for constant variation in the form of ended relationships or lost jobs and the like.
I don't know this for a fact, but that leads me to wonder if some people are coming to online games in search of that newness that they don't get in everyday living. But, as it turns out, the online world isn't all that different than the real one, plus the inherent limitations of a computer program. And, in their disappointment, they denounce the "grind." But that's an aside, and probably more psychoanalysis than is polite.
Back to the point I want to make. I think it all comes down not to what you do but how you approach what you do. I've had jobs that involved fairly repetitive tasks. When I hated the jobs, I might have described them as "grindy." When I loved the jobs, then the repetition could actually be kind of comforting. It was part of my routine. The difference between a routine and a grind then seems to largely be about whether you enjoy what you're doing.
It's up to everyone to find ways of enjoying the "grind" or ordinary life. No one is going to hand you the means to do that. You find it yourself. If something is a grind and you can't find a way to make it fun or enjoyable or at least tolerable (though I'd say that a game should be more than tolerable), then you move on, if you can. That's easier for a game than a job.
In the end, I think the standard concept of a "grind" is really pretty unhelpful. It obscures far more than it reveals, though it's so often said as if it's nature is self explanatory.
None of this is to say that there's no reason to advocate to changes in the mechanics of the game that might help to make it more enjoyable. But the sad fact is probably that there will always be a subset of people for whom the game isn't fun, no matter what changes might get made.
In other words, people like OP gets a real thrill out of trolling because they think that, because they quit the game, it makes them SO much better than those who genuinely enjoy the game and try to defend it.
Well now, once you get off your pedestal and finish judging everyone, perhaps we can have a conversation.
I never mentioned quitting the game, which if you'd actually read my OP you'd know.
I think some people get a buzz out of looking for things to shout at and tell them they're being wrong.
When the only thing you can do in a game is "grind", no, there is no choice there... im tired of playing the same over and over again because the creators of the game dont have imagination to do better things.
Another forumite here has a singature saying "Only internet users deal in absolutes". I'm sure you can remember where that quote is from.
He's pretty much spot on with his sig about the forum here. However, with assumptions like these you only contribute to making it even more true.
My main's gotten through the Borg arc, but that's as far as I've advanced through the storyline.
What's that mean? The borg missions in the episode queue or whatever it is? Or the Borg STFs?
Sorry, it's just not clear to me what the borg arc really is anymore as most of those borg missions I did waaaaay back when. And then only recently redid on one character when they were updated.
But the STFs ... I've done them so many times and I haven't even read the text in a single STF in 2014, that much I do know. Probably a lot longer.
This is an interesting topic, and one I happen to have been thinking about lately. It's a pity that it has to become a contest over who dislikes or likes the game most, but I suppose that's the nature of the forums these days.
One of the things I've been wondering is whether the concept of a "grind" is even that useful. It seems something very much a part of computer game lingo, but I'm not really a gamer, and so maybe I'm more inclined to give the subject a little bit more critical thought.
If by grind, we mean doing the same things over and over, well, that's kind of life. I get up every morning, go through my routines, go to work, do pretty much the same thing every day with some minor variations, come home, etc. Most of life really doesn't offer that much variety. I've known people who needed more variation, who became hopelessly bored with "ordinary" life, and had to make all sort of changes just to feel ok. Usually, they paid some hefty prices for their need for constant variation in the form of ended relationships or lost jobs and the like.
I don't know this for a fact, but that leads me to wonder if some people are coming to online games in search of that newness that they don't get in everyday living. But, as it turns out, the online world isn't all that different than the real one, plus the inherent limitations of a computer program. And, in their disappointment, they denounce the "grind." But that's an aside, and probably more psychoanalysis than is polite.
Back to the point I want to make. I think it all comes down not to what you do but how you approach what you do. I've had jobs that involved fairly repetitive tasks. When I hated the jobs, I might have described them as "grindy." When I loved the jobs, then the repetition could actually be kind of comforting. It was part of my routine. The difference between a routine and a grind then seems to largely be about whether you enjoy what you're doing.
It's up to everyone to find ways of enjoying the "grind" or ordinary life. No one is going to hand you the means to do that. You find it yourself. If something is a grind and you can't find a way to make it fun or enjoyable or at least tolerable (though I'd say that a game should be more than tolerable), then you move on, if you can. That's easier for a game than a job.
In the end, I think the standard concept of a "grind" is really pretty unhelpful. It obscures far more than it reveals, though it's so often said as if it's nature is self explanatory.
None of this is to say that there's no reason to advocate to changes in the mechanics of the game that might help to make it more enjoyable. But the sad fact is probably that there will always be a subset of people for whom the game isn't fun, no matter what changes might get made.
Fairly said.
I'd go further and suggest that, for most people, there'll be a part of the game they never really get to grips with.
It might be ground, or PvP, or the crafting system...could be anything.
Doesn't necessarily mean the particular mechanic is broken, though it may be, just that it's doesn't gel with that player.
One common motivation for many, I'd guess, is a sense of moving forward.
The effect of the recent announcements has put me, for one, inna sort of limbo vis a vis progression.
Comments
Exactamondo.
It seems that this is one of those 'agree to disagree' situations.
Indeed, the game can take either patience or money..... the two items are interchangeable.... if you have neither you will not enjoy it, or much of anything else in life, really.
I don't mind grinding, no really, I don't. I don't ever feel you should get stuff handed to you, but I need to have fun doing it. That is after all, the purpose of the game.
I fail to see how, clicking on menus counts as fun. I fail to see how playing the exact same mission over and over again counts as fun. I fail to see how increasing everything by 10 levels and obtaining T6 ships will make the game experience more enjoyable.
It's sad when I spend $4.99 on an 10+ year old game and it provides a lot more excitement and entertainment than this game.
But, I can still hope this game comes around and it'll be fun for me again.
We got two groups of players: the players who still like STO despite its flaws and the players who have had enough and decide to quit or wean themselves off of it. The players who are weaning themselves off of it also get a really big thrill out of getting a rise out of the players who still enjoy STO for what it is and, instead of going quietly into the night, they decide to troll and attack.
We get posts like this about how they're so awesome for quitting the grind and how they're so much better off without this game made by Craptic and their Chinese Overlords and so on and so forth to lure out not only the players who will defend the game for its flaws, but also for those who are in the same mindset as the OPs. The latter will gladly attack the former for being mindless sheep and how their logic is so stupid and shoot back any attempts to fire back.
In other words, people like OP gets a real thrill out of trolling because they think that, because they quit the game, it makes them SO much better than those who genuinely enjoy the game and try to defend it.
Going into the Undine Battlezone may be grind. Or it may be fun blowing up Undine ships.
For me, it was a lot of the latter, with the former a great additional benefit.
When you do something just because you want the reward at the end, it may feel like a grind. But if you do something you like, and get a reward at the end, that's just playing a fun game.
If you don't like blowing up enemy ships, or kill NPCs on ground maps, then maybe you actually dislike this game's gameplay. Or at least got tired off it. But no matter whether they make elaborate story missions like Fluid Dynamics or whatever, or if they give you a Battle Zone. A core experience of that will almost always face the combat parts of the game, the central mechanical elements of most MMOs. If that fighting stuff is not enjoyable to you, then what are you even bothering to play any more? Guess what - even if they gave you all reputation items for free, and a set would require only doing a mission once and never again, you'd still need to deal with the game mechanics.
If all you want is a story mission where you just force yourself to the combat stuff to get to the story, stop grinding, and come back when the next story mission is out. You won't need that crazy reputation gear and all the Dilithium to experience story missions.
Your greatest wish perhaps, that there is a new mission with cool rewards every day or week, just will never happen. Because Cryptic needs money to make these missions, and people logging in weekly just to play one mission are not gonna spend money on C-Store Items or for gaining Dilithium or whatever. And they also don't attract other people that might, because they are barely there, only doing some solo stuff, no one will notice their presence or absence.
The only thing such people may be willing to spend money on is the mission itself - but Cryptic doesn't want to sell story content, and maybe for a good economical reason - it wouldn't pay itself.
Absolutely.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Maybe it's a difference in playstyle. I play for maybe an hour or so when I log in; I run a mission or two, then someone around here needs something and I log out. My main's gotten through the Borg arc, but that's as far as I've advanced through the storyline. (I really ought to get back to that sometime...) Not having the "best" gear has never mattered to me in the slightest.
Basically, I'm of the opinion that I play a game for fun. Competitive games, like Scrabble or Munchkin, I play to win (and, in Munchkin, for the glory of wielding a Flaming Shiny Mallet of Kneecapping of Destiny of Doom!); noncompetitive games, like MMOs, have their own brand of fun to be had. If the only fun you have is in defeating competitors, perhaps you should look into something more PvP-oriented than Star Trek.
One of the things I've been wondering is whether the concept of a "grind" is even that useful. It seems something very much a part of computer game lingo, but I'm not really a gamer, and so maybe I'm more inclined to give the subject a little bit more critical thought.
If by grind, we mean doing the same things over and over, well, that's kind of life. I get up every morning, go through my routines, go to work, do pretty much the same thing every day with some minor variations, come home, etc. Most of life really doesn't offer that much variety. I've known people who needed more variation, who became hopelessly bored with "ordinary" life, and had to make all sort of changes just to feel ok. Usually, they paid some hefty prices for their need for constant variation in the form of ended relationships or lost jobs and the like.
I don't know this for a fact, but that leads me to wonder if some people are coming to online games in search of that newness that they don't get in everyday living. But, as it turns out, the online world isn't all that different than the real one, plus the inherent limitations of a computer program. And, in their disappointment, they denounce the "grind." But that's an aside, and probably more psychoanalysis than is polite.
Back to the point I want to make. I think it all comes down not to what you do but how you approach what you do. I've had jobs that involved fairly repetitive tasks. When I hated the jobs, I might have described them as "grindy." When I loved the jobs, then the repetition could actually be kind of comforting. It was part of my routine. The difference between a routine and a grind then seems to largely be about whether you enjoy what you're doing.
It's up to everyone to find ways of enjoying the "grind" or ordinary life. No one is going to hand you the means to do that. You find it yourself. If something is a grind and you can't find a way to make it fun or enjoyable or at least tolerable (though I'd say that a game should be more than tolerable), then you move on, if you can. That's easier for a game than a job.
In the end, I think the standard concept of a "grind" is really pretty unhelpful. It obscures far more than it reveals, though it's so often said as if it's nature is self explanatory.
None of this is to say that there's no reason to advocate to changes in the mechanics of the game that might help to make it more enjoyable. But the sad fact is probably that there will always be a subset of people for whom the game isn't fun, no matter what changes might get made.
Well now, once you get off your pedestal and finish judging everyone, perhaps we can have a conversation.
I never mentioned quitting the game, which if you'd actually read my OP you'd know.
I think some people get a buzz out of looking for things to shout at and tell them they're being wrong.
--Red Annorax
Another forumite here has a singature saying "Only internet users deal in absolutes". I'm sure you can remember where that quote is from.
He's pretty much spot on with his sig about the forum here. However, with assumptions like these you only contribute to making it even more true.
What's that mean? The borg missions in the episode queue or whatever it is? Or the Borg STFs?
Sorry, it's just not clear to me what the borg arc really is anymore as most of those borg missions I did waaaaay back when. And then only recently redid on one character when they were updated.
But the STFs ... I've done them so many times and I haven't even read the text in a single STF in 2014, that much I do know. Probably a lot longer.
Fairly said.
I'd go further and suggest that, for most people, there'll be a part of the game they never really get to grips with.
It might be ground, or PvP, or the crafting system...could be anything.
Doesn't necessarily mean the particular mechanic is broken, though it may be, just that it's doesn't gel with that player.
One common motivation for many, I'd guess, is a sense of moving forward.
The effect of the recent announcements has put me, for one, inna sort of limbo vis a vis progression.
Which is not necessarily a bad thing.