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Ker'rat PvP A2B/A2D hybrids...
cbrjwrr
Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
Build: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=usslibertyv1_0
Everything Fleet Mk XII/Rep/antiproton is staying, rest will be replaced with better stuff in due course.
As you can see, currently use single A2D (with Blue Doff) And it works well - trouble is, most of my deaths are because a KDF gets a vaping run in while my TT or RSPs are on cooldown, and well, its the next thing to change, so I want to run A2B/A2D combination to bring cooldowns down, especially the RSP.
Now, this is the Boff layout I want to run:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=usslibertyv2_0
Question is, will one A2B2 with only Blue Doffs be enough, or should I save my somewhat limited resources?
Everything Fleet Mk XII/Rep/antiproton is staying, rest will be replaced with better stuff in due course.
As you can see, currently use single A2D (with Blue Doff) And it works well - trouble is, most of my deaths are because a KDF gets a vaping run in while my TT or RSPs are on cooldown, and well, its the next thing to change, so I want to run A2B/A2D combination to bring cooldowns down, especially the RSP.
Now, this is the Boff layout I want to run:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=usslibertyv2_0
Question is, will one A2B2 with only Blue Doffs be enough, or should I save my somewhat limited resources?
Post edited by cbrjwrr on
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Neutroniums - already use Mk X Fleet ones, and will swap to Mk XII eventually.
Doffs - VRs are out of budget, but I can afford 3 blues.
Surviving vapes - well, they either succeed first time (less and less frequently it seems) or it gets dragged out to them needing repeated attempts - what I'm trying to do is further increase how many attempts it takes...
FPB/sci skills - I don't much like A2B either, but the cooldown bonus seems too useful...
@DevolvedOne
RSP has a cooldown of 2 minutes, and starts a 1 minute cooldown on additional RSPs - adding another wont help.
Well I think he was making a comment on RSP not being an ideal survival tactic. As far a second copy well your right on the global times... but that is what you want to attempt to do with the a2b is it now... drop it to global. 2 copies is global 1min shared is the global. 2 copies you have one every 1 min. A2B you have 1 copy up almost every 2 min.
..... Of course now I went to look at your build... and well you do have 2 copies... You also have A2S and A2D which don't play all that well. Adding a2b on top would be just a nightmare of cool downs.
On your build I want to give you some honest advice. Thank you for coming here and asking for help. Here are a few suggestions.
1) The ship choice is sub par... you likely know that the mirror ships are a little bit less. Having said that it is workable until you can get a better fleet or lockbox. Don't let that keep you from trying pvp. Just set expectations accordingly.
2) The mix of torps and energy by most folks is frowned on. You just don't have any buffs at all for the torps... having said that there are plenty of Acetons around right now so its not a bad choice. I would not run the counter command console though. Its not doing anything for qunatum torps. Or switch to photons. The rep ones (Dyson Grav torp... and Undine Bio enhanced would work in replacement if you want to use that console)
3) if you do choose to run A2B you don't need 2 copies of RSP anymore... so remove one.
Here is a suggestion to make that ship somewhat more workable.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=libertyhus_0
Forget a2b ... run something like that with dual a2d instead. with the doff you will have 100% uptime on damp and all the extra resist and turn. You will also always be immune to pushes and pulls.
One RSP is more then enough. Load a tractor instead of the PH... you have tons of armor yes it breaks tracotrs but honestly when that happnes just evasive out Tractor and lay the plasma.
Doffs run 2 Dmg control... the Anti matter doff for A2D.. and 2 Tac team doffs. (if you don't have a 6th slot yet... just run 1 Tac team doff for now.)
To be honest I would even consdier playing around with some other mirror ships even. The Mirror Universe Heavy Cruiser Retrofit would fit well with a sci. It has a lt cmd sci boff so you could run something like a GW 1 along with an Eject warp plasma... trade the EPTW for an EPTE and at least you would have a way to stop people... time a sub nuke and a scan right and you might even kill someone.
Have fun in any case... also don't count out playing an actual sci ship. Right now scis are in a great place in the game, our traits are great and the synergies with a good sci ship with Sensor Analysis can be down right heck to play against. There are a couple mirror ones you could toy around with on the cheap.
@DevolvedOne
You're not going to do any type of damage worthwhile in that ship so just give up on the emergency power to weapons- it's useless in this case. And RSP is not going to save you in Ker'rat. One copy is good for emergencies, but 2 is overkill. It will get nuked off or waited out and you will die.
A decent science ship can dish out a lot more damage than that cruiser any day of the week and just be a lot more useful and versatile overall. Hop in a science ship, try to come up with a build, and we can take it from there. The ship that you chose is pretty much horrible at everything and does not benefit a science captain in any way.
@DevolvedOne
You can just right click the item to disable visuals, 2 piece borg and resilient resA/resB fleet shield is a very strong option in pvp.
Also aux to battery, aux to dampeners and aux to sif cooldowns all clash so using atb with atd or ats is a bad idea since when you use atb, your atd will enter cooldown and will be useable at the same time you can atb again. 3 blue technicians is the minimum for atb to be effective in my opinion
If you are going to use aux2batt for cd reduction, than I suggest do it right with 2 copies, but if you decide to forego it, than slot in ep2s3, keep the ep2s2 in the rsp1 slot, and pop in an ep2e1 where old ep2s1 was.
Doff your aux2id for energy DR, and keep your empwr2xsystems doffed, so they can keep cycling quickly.
Sci team is nice for a quick shield heal, and cleanse of certain debuffs, but offers no DR, so you may rethink it and use TSS in its place.
Weapons layout is somewhat basic, and using 2 torpedoes on a cruiser in a pvp environment isn't always the optimal choice, but it can work.
The biggest issue is to get the vapers/cloakers/nimbles to hold still, which is a bit difficult since you have little sci abilities, so this can be one of the biggest issues for you.
You also have a tad too many eng consoles IMO, you really only need 1, and I suggest moving the 3 UNI-consoles up to eng slots, and put in maybe 1-2 dyson sci consoles for some extra shield healing/capacity, or just go for more shield capacity in general.
With no room for an APO, GW's are going to be a doozy for you, so you will need in those situations to make heavy use of brace4impact/aux2id + eng console to provide a high level of kinetic resistance.
Get yourself some Deuterium, and make use of it along with ep2e, and if need be evasive to try and free yourself from being a sitting duck.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Its maintaining, in its current state, a more than acceptable to me kills/deaths ratio - it just needs a little bit extra off cool down times, which is what a Doffed A2B could provide.
Hence why I only intend to use one A2B2, may as well get better use of my sacrificed Aux...
Also, RSP has saved me, very often. Whole reason why I run two copies.
Ship choice - Yeah, practically any ship except the Galaxy would be objectively better. I don't give a damn. I want to use my Sovereign-Class Star Cruiser, and I'm going to make it effective, with or without your, sarcastic sounding, help. (I wont judge it, wit doesn't convey well on the internet after all)
I don't want to fly some science ship, or some lockbox ship, or anything else - I want to fly a Sovereign, it feels like home. Same with Phasers plus Quantum Torps, its what a canon Sovereign uses, so it is what I use.
Yes, almost any other weapon type would be better - but that isn't enough to make me swap away from what it should use. Same with Torps - I know torps are useless in STO, but they are a fundamental part of Star Trek weapons. I will not compromise that for the sake of gameplay.
And if that means I lose a PvP battle, so what? I PvP for fun, and if I win its a bonus. If I lose, well, I turned up in a Star Cruiser built like the above, against dedicated and skilled PvPers in Fleet/Rep equipped lockbox or lobi ships.
Effectively, I can only win, or do as reasonably expected.
Well poking at you with some sarcasm, but canon sovereign doesn't use a 360 ap beam, nor a KCB, and like the Enterprise-E had both photon & quantum torpedoes on hand.
Oh, and torpedoes are far from useless.
:P
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Yeah, those are the compromises I've already made...
And strictly, Photon and Quantum Torps are launched from the same launchers, and as that isn't actually reflected in current STO mechanics, I went Quantums as they are more identifiable with the Sovereign than Photons.
If you have no planes of changing anything about your build why ask for advice or other thoughts at all.
You asked if 1 a2b with blue doffs would do. I think your mostly hearing no not really. However it sounds like you know what you want to do anyway. So just do it I guess.
The advice you got about the sci ship... was sound. In general sci/sci is more effective then a sci cruiser. If your weapons and ship are RP choices. Then there it is I guess. Sift thought the advice you got and change what your feel like if anything I guess.
Last week I put A2D on it - and it was a very good change, made it fast enough and turn well enough to keep on target against BoPs, and added a fair whack to survivability. So, now I want to run A2B as well to reduce some cooldowns - TT and BFAW are most important, and RSP would be nice, if A2B works on it.
Now, as I understand it, I can use 5 Doffs, so I have Law working on torpedoes, 3 blue Doffed A2B and Doffed A2D gives me 2/3rds uptime on A2D, and 6 to 8 seconds taken off BFAW and TT, and means I cant run HE while A2B is up for obvious reasons. Now that sounds workable.
However, because of the expense of the proposed 3 blue A2B Doffs, I want to know if I what I want my proposed A2B/A2D to do will actually work.
@DevolvedOne
Actually more like a good few minutes for an average KDF, but don't let the truth get in the way of your little rant.
Anyway, if you cant adapt to opponent strategy then you need to gtfo - no sense in whining just because Feds are more numerous. You KDF'ers sign up to taking on 4 to 5 feds in Fedballs on your own or with one or two others as soon as you entered Ker'rat as a KDF, so to use a phrase you would use, stfu and stop complaining, or get more players and beat Feds at their own game of making balls, like HoBO does whenever their scouters get killed and send for backup.
But no, you all just complain that Feds form Fed balls; of course they will, its Ker'rat, a lonely Fed is a dead Fed from being vaped.
You lot build ships capable of critting for 50k plus, so I build my ship to deal with it - I don't complain you lot crit to much, you are completely within your rights to crit for high 5 or 6 digit numbers, its what you need to get through Fedballs, as we all know what happens when a KDF cant kill the ball - they either die, or becoming increasingly common, run. What happened to "Today is a good day to die", and "Prepare for ramming speed!"
dood, you do come off a bit sarcastic there...but i think its a valid feeling of eye rolling i got while reading the thread...lol
@cbrjwrr
man....i dont even know where to start....if you are new player i understand your questions...and i feel you have gotten great responses to push you towards optimizing your build for kerrat
but your last post man....i have to break it down a little...
you think a sovy is going to be able to "keep up" with bops? man no matter what you run you are so rarely gonna land a solid torp hit....and to use that cooldown doff using 1 torp fore and aft? yikes man. i would advise against that so highly i wouldnt know the words to begin the conversation with.
also you speak of being able to run hazzard emitters more because of a2b.... you do know hazzards is aux power dependent right? and unless you have some magical batteries ive not heard of there is no way you will get anything beneficial as far as hull heals out of an a2b cooldowned haxzzards.
if you want this build to work man, try taking the advice laid out for you above. or just fly how you want and disregard maxing your build....thats up to you.
edit: i also see you are running the impulse cap cell....why are you running away in a cruiser?
"RPing" your "PVP" is such a hard thing to do man.
have fun kill bad guys
tt1, faw2
epts1, rsp1, eptw3, dem3
et1, a2id, dem2
ph1, he2
st1
8 beam arrays
2pc borg set (with visuals turned off!)
core with [amp] mod
good resil shields
2x neutroniums, plas leech, jump console (for nuke)
2x shield somethings...maybe cap bonus or whatever
2 phaser consoles
3 purp dmg ctrl doffs, 1 tac team doff, a2id doff
i mean....really that ship is not built to do any kind of damage....but if i were going to use it for general suppression and a bit of tanking, this is what i would do.
but honestly....its just the wrong ship to try and do anything offensive in. you can tell from the console layout that its designed for a support role....hopefully as an engineer.
eh, idunno man...i feel like your performance is going to suffer as a sci captain in a cruiser....i mean....at least go a full tac heavy cruiser like the fleet sovy. excel, avenger.....
hope that helps....not sure it will based on your responses from some very good players...
have fun kill bad guys
You need to actually read what I wrote again - I said it kept on target, not keep up with, massive difference. Also I said I would have to run HE less often, not more often. Honestly, I don't critique builds very often, but if I did I would at least read what they actually wrote.
Using Law is just a suggestion - I currently use a Doff to reduce TTs cooldown, and with that reduction now taken care of by A2B, I could put someone else there.
The Impulse isn't for running away - the opposite actually, because using Full Impulse to catch someone up, or get somewhere faster redistributes your power to engines, most likely at a time when you want to keep power to your other systems. It is also has the advantage that it is faster than full impulse while it is on.
It actually isn't very good as a run away tool, as not only does it takes a second or so to prime up and accelerate, leaving enough time for your opponent to finish you off, but it also kills your turn rate at a time when you most likely want to dodge out of fire - Evasive Manoeuvre's serves far better in that regard thanks to its various bonuses like added turn rate and defence.
using impulse cap to get into a fight on a cruiser is...almost laughable....
also, chasing someone in a cruiser that does no damage equally as laughable.
impulse cap cell is absolutely the best "run away" tool...
but to use it on a cruiser....leaves me wondering why?
now im not trying to poke fun at you man, and i may have missed something in your posts, thats true...
but it seems like your just not listening...
do you not see all the great pvp guys in here trying to help you? husanak asked the question, and ill ask it again...what exactly are you looking for?
Right now, I'm looking at adding A2B and revising my existing Boff layout to accommodate its changes to reduce cooldowns on non-aux based skills. (for obvious reasons why, as Aux-based skills I wont use During A2Bs duration)
There is a long to do list, which includes skill re-specs and replacing most of the equipment - but right now, I'm looking at one aspect - and as no one has said something like "yeah, A2B/A2D does work", or "it does work provided you fly it like this" and everyone is suggesting Dual A2B or no A2B, I wont bother, and just learn to fly around what made me want to run A2B in the first place.
Now; Impulse Capacitance Cell - I use it the way I've described. I do not use it as a run away tool, as there are better ones.
I will listen to suggestions - provided you actually explain them, and how it will be more effective. Take DEM - I tried DEM a few months back when I only did PvE, and it didn't seem to make a difference for its massively long cooldown, so I dropped it for RSP, which did.
Now, armed with far more understanding, I see you've suggested two copies - I can see why now that I know DEM needs to include the Marion Doff, and well, I need the EC cap removal in order to afford Marion, as last time I checked he was well out of budget - So, DEM will be a long term change.
I am listening - 99% of what has been said I'm noting for future use for this character, my other characters, and to help others, and the only bits of advice I'm discarding completely is being told to gtfo. But just because I don't seem to notice on it doesn't mean I'm ignoring it - at the end of the day, I have 3 of my 4 mains in Ker'rat regularly, and they will use all the bits I'm not using for my Vulcan's Star Cruiser.
As one example, the gravimetric torpedo suggested by antoniosalieri I will use, my Altmeri char has it slotted as a project, and will be using it soon. I mean, a grav well spawning torpedo is just too good to ignore...
yes, a2b/a2d hybrid is not only viable, its damn effective. i run an a2b/a2d hirogen hunter on my main. its so effective i have had the jhas in drydock for... well, as long as the hunter has been available.
x3 techs, a cleanse doff, and an matter/antimatter a2d doff are a sweet spot.
imo running 2 copies of a2b is nearly redundant. there are a few seconds of 'downtime', but the added bonus of a2d and the resist the a2d doff gives me are well worth the minimal sacrifice.
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try this.
EPTW1(Consider EPTE1 Instead) ATD1 EPTS3 RSP3 (Might aswell use EWP3 or DEM3)
ET1 ATB1 (Whatever you want, EWP1 maybe? or DEM2)
Get rid of torpedoes, they do no good, 7 Beams + KCB is good. Don't use mixed energy type, Get rid of Omni.
Get Plasmonic Leech
Get 1 copy of field generator
Replace 2 Neutros with those
Consider removing the impulse burst, and consider adding Nukara console.
in terms of item sets... Retro 2 set piece is (decent)good(with elite core and resilient shields), FULL Solanae works too, up to you.
Just throwing out there, take it where it comes from.
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Reviewing what you've suggested, perhaps?
EPTS1, ATD1, EPTW3, RSP3
ET1, A2B1, RSP2/DEM2 (once I have Marion)
Eject Warp Plasma is something else I've tried like DEM, and as far as I could tell it just made me a sitting duck...
Is the universal seeming recommendation of A2D1/A2B1 instead of A2D2/A2B2 something to do with the skills themselves, or because of all the other abilities you can use in a Lt. Cm. Engineer relegating A2X abilities to Lt.? Because I want to run A2D2 because of its resistance bonuses over A2D1.
Plasmonic Leach - another one on the to get list already, Field Generator can wait until more crafters compete to bring price down, and plus 10% accuracy for beam weapons sounds very useful, Ill start a project for that. Got the freebie mission replay Solanae Set already, so Ill try it today.
That's useful to know - next questions are about using it...
Obviously you cycle them, but is it better to do A2D first, or A2B?
And how does the overlap when A2B removes Aux power affect the A2D handling and resists?
And how does A2B actually affect cooldowns? Does it affect it like a Conn Officer takes a chunk off TT, so if you click TT in A2Bs duration it removes the 7 seconds off the timer, or does it only affect abilities already running on cooldown?
Actually, better use an example. Assuming the first scenario using Boff layout I've listed above,
I enter a fight against, say a simple Borg Cube. I would use EPTW3, DEM2, BFAW2 - now, at what point should I use A2B such that I can use BFAW2 again the quickest? (as weapon power wont need the additional boost) Before or after?
If you want to fly a Sovereign, get a Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit ASAP, even if a Fleet Avenger is superior to it.
However, I'd stick with a Fleet Excelsior. Awesome boff seating, awesome console layout (4/2/4), turns and stops like a dime, fast and great looking, a Mr. tactical cruiser. It has bonus passive power to all subsystems and a handy Transwarp ability that can bring you to any sector of the quadrants, Borg, Klingon and Undine's ones apart.
In the meantime, here's a cookie cutter setup for your current ship:
TT1/APB1
EPTW1/ATB1/EPTS3/DEM3
ET1/ATB1/RSP2
HE1/ST2
TSS1
DOFFs: WCE cleanse, x2 BFI shield distribution officers, x3 AtB technicians. If you miss the sixth slot upgrade, remove the WCE.
This way you focus especially on tanking, avoiding to enhance damage too much that, on this ship, can't be done. What is this ship for is beyond me...
You won't explode immediately, as you're essentially tanking only with plenty of shield and hull healing... but still dead weight for your team. That's why you should work towards a better ship. IMO, a Mirror Universe Patrol Escort will work better, helps pew pew through content to get gear faster.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1155351&highlight=green+knight
Build: http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=youkiddingright_5833
In fact, it isn't even a cookie cutter, this is an Oddy Build whacked onto a Star Cruiser with no testing, the OP reckons its good for a 30k DPS ISE run once optimised.
I'm not saying your build is bad - at this stage of development it probably is better, make myself attractive bait, find a Fed-Rom as an anti-vaper, use a bit of teamwork and easy kill on an unsuspecting KDF who obviously hasn't read this thread and learnt to ignore me to save being counter-vaped. But I am saying you are wrong to say a Star Crusier cant do damage.
30k DPS in PvE means nothing in PvP. People have defense, resists, healing, in a way that you won't keep up. TBH, that above build is little to no use in PvP, as it's going to explode big time with just EPTS1, ST2 as direct shield heals. RSP saves from a dramatic moment, but you pop seconds after it. Oh and I see no Neutroniums.
hi, i think that my experience on the subject could help.
why?
i am like you and just want to fly the ship i like even if it is not a top ship.
what is the ship i fly? the galaxy x.
and to be more precise i COULD NOT fly other ship anymore, like... i just can't.
to give you an example i have grind the breen cruiser in the winter event because i really love the design of the ship ( took me 3 week if i remind correctly ), when i finally have it i have just done 2 missions before going back to my galaxy x.
it been more than 2 years now that i strictly fly this ship only.
i have made all kind of build with it and known what work on it and what not.
with the reboot of the galaxy i have move the tactical ensign to science ensign to have better protection against sci in pvp, so i now end up with a bo layout similar to your mirror star cruiser, just less turn rate.
so i really known what you can do with a ship with that bo layout and that turn/inertia /speed value and let me tell it right now, it is a pain.
you will never be able to do great things with it, no matter how you play, no matter what is your build, gears, rep, ect ect
just a lt tact and a lt sci is too limiting expecially when it is combined with these turn/inertia stats.
too slow to enter the battle, to escape, not enought firepowered to punch back, not enought sci power to cc, really nothing more than a punchbag.
with training and experienced you will be able to rolfstomp newbies, to kill average pvp players but that it, against good players in better ship your performance will sound like this: meh:(
now, don't misanderstand me, i don't want to convinced you to change ship at all cost if that not what you really want.
but i really want to make sure that you known what your are going throught ( because i really wish that i wasn't as stubborn as i am in my choice it would allow me to taste what is it to be efficient in this game, really ).
that being said, you said you want to fly the sovereign, in that case switch to the regent, it can have the sovereign skin and no one would notice, it got a better bo layout and can be upgrade later to fleet level ( 10% more shield and hull, 10 console slot )
also, if you are doing kerrat it mean a gameplay comparable to pug, so, i am sorry, but a double auxtobat is the best way for these ship.
no matter how strange it could sound to you a double auxtodamp is less tanky in the long term with ship like this, you will loose firepower and long term survivability.
and an auxtobat/auxtodamp hybrid won't cut it either, unless the new xindi bo make up for it ( didn't try this out )
hybrid auxtobat/auxtodamp is better on an avenger
i will not give you build because this is really dependant to your playstyle and what you want to do, but if you got specific question about anything concerning these ship i am all your
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
It needs modifications I agree, especially defensive ones and accuracy boosting ones, but once altered it would be good enough for the normal Ker'rat I face.
My build listed in the OP runs 4k DPS in PvP, and I last in normal being vaped situations for 2.8 uses of RSP - which means in an average fight I die long before they do unless I'm in a 2 vs 1 (a very easy situation to arrange at Ker'rat unless you get into a 1 vs 1 at the cracked planetoid)
Once adjusted for PvP, that build would do closer to 10k DPS while lasting for about the same time - to me, that sounds a good deal better, as the average KDFer can fend off by various means for equivalent 6 to 8k HPS/SPS, meaning 7k goes towards covering their defences, and 1-3k to taking them down - for a 40k Hull/10k shield BoP, that means, in mathematic theory at least, they go down first.
Obviously, it wont stop an expert PvPing KDF in a Lobi/Lockbox ship - but against an average one it would have a good go at.
i use a2b, then use a2d once the aux has recovered a sufficient amount of power.
once a2b finishes and goes into cd, aux power begins to replenish. the longer you wait the higher your aux power will get. and the higher your aux power is when you execute a2d the more effective a2d is.
a2b with 3 purple techs will reduce any boff skills currently in cd to global.
in your borg scenario you would pop your ep2w, dem, bfaw, tacteam, etc. then you would fire off a2b to invoke the cd reduction. a2b does seem to afford you a small (perhaps .5 second) grace period, so if you faw or whatnot doesnt actually activate until after the a2b there is a good chance it will inherit the cd reduction anyway. but a2b is always the last skill you want to execute.
at this point you would likely come under fire from the borg and be looking for a2b to expire so you can use a2d. once a2d is finished most everything except your dem should be ready for another cycle. dem has a very long cd and youre not going to be able to run it on every rotation.
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