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Sci Torp Boat-Photon or Transphasic?
vangreal
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
So I have two spins on a build right now...
I am currently using a Aves Dyson destroyer with 2 transphasics and a beam array up front, with a transphasic torp and mine in the back with another beam array. Solenae Set with Reman shield for looks (looks awesome on the dyson ship) and all transphasic tac consoles.
For my build I cloak, prefire torp spread 3, then break cloak with Sen Analysis, then grav well, tacyeon beam1 on my target, fire ts3, then high yield 1, and then fly over and hit em with photonic shockwave and drop a dispersal beta on em with the mines. Blows up groups quite nicely. So far no rep gear but just hit T2 on everything so I was gonna grind out some marks and dil and start crafting.
I'm torn between sticking with transphasics on this build and just getting some rapid fires, cluster launchers, and the breen set OR going with this photon torpedo build...
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=dysontorps_0
I only included the specific traits for the build, and what I thought the other traits would be.
If I stick with trans, my boosted damage can be 41.9%(breen set and rule 32 console) + 3 trans tac consoles.
If I switch to photon, and get the Adapted Maco set, my photons would be boosted by 36.4%(Adapted Maco set and rule 32 console) + 2 photon tac consoles, 26.2% from Counter command console, and 22.9% +3% critH +20% critD from Protonic Arsenal Set.
That works out to...
Trans- 41.9+(3*28.1)=126.2% trans damage
Photon- 36.4+(2*28.1)+26.2+22.9+3% critH +20% critD=141.7% photon damage +3% critH +20% critD
The question is, is the extra shield pen from transphasic better than the extra photon damage and critX than I can get, plus the extra effects of the grav torp and bio torp?
Also, any refinements you can see on the build for either option?
I am currently using a Aves Dyson destroyer with 2 transphasics and a beam array up front, with a transphasic torp and mine in the back with another beam array. Solenae Set with Reman shield for looks (looks awesome on the dyson ship) and all transphasic tac consoles.
For my build I cloak, prefire torp spread 3, then break cloak with Sen Analysis, then grav well, tacyeon beam1 on my target, fire ts3, then high yield 1, and then fly over and hit em with photonic shockwave and drop a dispersal beta on em with the mines. Blows up groups quite nicely. So far no rep gear but just hit T2 on everything so I was gonna grind out some marks and dil and start crafting.
I'm torn between sticking with transphasics on this build and just getting some rapid fires, cluster launchers, and the breen set OR going with this photon torpedo build...
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=dysontorps_0
I only included the specific traits for the build, and what I thought the other traits would be.
If I stick with trans, my boosted damage can be 41.9%(breen set and rule 32 console) + 3 trans tac consoles.
If I switch to photon, and get the Adapted Maco set, my photons would be boosted by 36.4%(Adapted Maco set and rule 32 console) + 2 photon tac consoles, 26.2% from Counter command console, and 22.9% +3% critH +20% critD from Protonic Arsenal Set.
That works out to...
Trans- 41.9+(3*28.1)=126.2% trans damage
Photon- 36.4+(2*28.1)+26.2+22.9+3% critH +20% critD=141.7% photon damage +3% critH +20% critD
The question is, is the extra shield pen from transphasic better than the extra photon damage and critX than I can get, plus the extra effects of the grav torp and bio torp?
Also, any refinements you can see on the build for either option?
Post edited by vangreal on
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Transphasics simply do not have the punch, even with shield bleedthrough. The issue is they have simply the lowest base damage in the entire game for projectile weapons. The only weapon that really shines is the Breen Cluster, and that does not benefit from "Torpedo" boosts, but it benefits from "Mine" and "Transphasic" boosts.
Just an FYI: Specific damage type projectile boosts enhances both the torp & mine variants of the same type. So a "Photon Projectile" boost enhances both torp & mine weapons that are for this type.
2nd FYI: Nukara Mines do not benefit from any mine type damage boosts at all, even generic mine damage. Critical boosts, yes, but not raw damage boosts. However, they will perform better with Attack Pattern Omega / Alpha and very high Aux Power is a must for them. Your Rule 62 Console will help your torps but not your Nukara Mine.
For what you have in your proposed build, Gravity Well + APO + APA if TAC + TS3 + Dyson Grav Torp will be your bread and butter in dealing with massed NPCs. It seems you have decent Particle Generator but very basic Graviton Generators. The rifts caused by your Dyson Grav Torps are enhanced by Particle & Graviton Generators. Graviton increases the range of your GW pull and how strongly the Dyson Grav Torp rifts yank ships back into the center. Particle Generators increases the strength of your rift damage. Skill these things up high enough, and GW + APO + TS3 is literally the only thing you have to do in dealing with grouped up ships.
For single targets, TS3 is mediocre (better for PVP since its a guaranteed hit, but you made no expression for PVP anyways).
For such a situation, HYT is superior with the Enhanced BM Torp. It does large damage and insane criticals if you boost things right. It also has a MASSIVE blast radius to the point where you will be surprised how far away targets get hit from the blast area. It does not bypass shields but relies on sheer damage and criticals. Even if the target you fired at is destroyed, the torp still travels and explodes where the target was at when it was destroyed, so it can still damage other targets in the area. The Enhanced BM Torp however has no shield bypass mechanic. It relies on sheer damage and radius. It also is untargetable in HYT or TS fire.
HYT with the Dyson Grav Torp is AOE, very high damage, and practically a guarantee to proc a massive rift. There are 2 issues to be aware of:
1. In HYT it is targetable.
2. In HYT, the explosion can cause splash damage to the firer.
You have none of those issues firing HYT with the Enhanced BM Torp but it does not have the rifts like the Dyson Grav Torp.
For most of your work, TS3 for your Dyson Grav Torp will be best. For single targets, I'd pop in a HYT1 instead of that TS1 so you can use the Enhanced BM Torp in that mode.
Last note, not sure if you noticed it yet, but Photonic Shockwave can knock targets away. There are times you do not want that, esp if you're using Grav Well and relying on Dyson Grav Torp rifts. You're trying to keep the targets in the rifts for shield bypassing damage, not give them a means to escape.
I do not have an answer to your question. It depends on what photons and transphasics you are using. It looks as though the answer would be photons however I have not parsed or calculated different builds. The only Transphasic weapon I am currently a fan of is the Breen Cluster Torpedo.
Transphasics are great against shielded targets and not the best torpedo vs unshielded targets. I've read that Tacs can really boost torpedo damage and if this is the case perhaps you can make them a good spiking weapon. I play a Fed Sci and have tinkered around with the Chel Gret and a transphasic build using the free rapid reloads and the Breen Cluster. Run the Breen series for the torpedoes and XI set if you want to max out Transphasic damage. Note the Breen set is XI which makes it underpowered in some areas in comparison to other sets. I found this very frustrating.
I've also played around with all Grav Torp/Bio. Molec. photon builds (plus the EPW) on the Dyson and Intrepid-I just collected purple drops from the Undine rep. boxes. I even played around with a Grav Torp/Fleet photon build when the new torp first came out.
Do you have the 360 deg. beam installed for subsystem targeting? If you can afford to play with the build I'd suggest testing a photon in it's place, especially since you have Photon Tac consoles. I'd suggest a Core that transfers an extra % of primary power setting to a desired secondary.
It seems that you have your build set and I do not see TYB, but I'd suggest playing around with powers that complement the Secondary Deflector.
If you can transfer enough of the enemies shields using/investing in flow caps and using complementary Secondary Deflector powers you can drop a facing or the shields and hit their bare hull with a HYT Enhanced Bio. torp. I ran my Dyson only in Sci mode. My advice is for PvE only.
Yes, so far with Transphasics the damage is okay, but it's not "!!!".
Since I am a Sci captain, no APA, but even without with APO, GW, TS3 with grav torp does a gravimetric tonne of damage lol.
I had no idea the enhanced bio torp had a unique AOE explosion with THY. That works great then, grav torps with TS3, bio torps with THY1. How do you effectively boost the damage on the bio torp explosions?
I have the Photonic Shockwave for the rare chance I need to stun someone. I also got a few of the duty officers so that it procs extra shockwaves off targets. Works great in a group when grav well is down.
I do think I will buy the duty officer to reverse TBR, that way I can pull enemies into mines and grav wells, or away from teammates, objectives, etc. Same damage right?
I swapped out the 360 beam array, gonna put some photon mines back there, that way they drop and the nukara ones provide the CC.
I did put a TYB in the build, swapped out the tractor beam for it. Works great on finding a weak target in the AOE, and setting off some warp core explosions.
I do want to get a better core, but that free one works for now. Will probably get A->E or S, depending on how the build feels.
I'd suggest replacing PSW with something that you will be using more often. And shields effect it's damage. If it is working for you then ok. Note: Deflector Officer's can have a chance to reduce Deflector ability cooldown time and you can slot up to three.
TBR pull is half the magnitude (thanks jaegemi!) and the doff is 7 mil on the exchange I think, it could be 3 mil. I was just looking at it on the exchange last night.
Tachyon Beam only removes shields, and I'd only advise using it on very specific builds buffed by flowcaps, other synergy abilities, and the Secondary Deflector. But feel free to play around with it though; I found the Tac. Target Shields ability to be superior.
Damage is the same. It's the repel magnitude (negative repel with doff) that's halved.
The Dyson and 8472 torpedo launchers seem to be "the thing" now - the 8472 torpedo due to its high damage output when using T:HY, and the Dyson launcher for its gravimetric properties as well as its 3pc set bonus.
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Perhaps, but they still jack squat if shields are up and all it takes is a sliver to ruin your day...
Kinetic Sheering makes Transphasics stonger...not to mention to get those Photon damage bonuses you kinda have to be wasteful...
You would have to use the PPS...which the majority of the stats are wasted or have little effect, you would have to use the EPW for the 3 set bonus...which not only isn't affect by SST it woul do little damage since you put weapon power low, then you need to use the C-CM-ER which has wasted damage stats and you lose out on a fleet console.
The Dyson Torp doesn't need to do that. Matter of fact, when dealing with a bunch of ships, GW + Torp Spread of Dyson Grav Torp is all you need and I don't care what state of shields the enemies are at. They can be full hull and shields for all I care. I don't care. No need to do any sort of draining ability where you have to excessively spec into it at the cost of other ship performance aspects.
And for the Enh.BM Torp, I will repeatedly fire HYT with it into the enemy regardless of the state of its shields.
1. If it crits, it crits for massive damage.
2. The AOE with HYT fire is guaranteed to hit nearby targets caught in the blast area. And if it crits...
Also, there's more than enough Energy Weapons focused ships out there to worry about shields in a team environment.
Even so, if your science ship is holding down an area by itself, the classic GW+TS+Dyson Grav Torp trick is the perfect answer 100% of the time.
And none of this requires extensive energy weapon use by my science ship nor any drain abilities. To do this, you simply need the proper weapons and proper spec into Particle & Graviton Generators. You can even carry both Enhanced BM Torp & Dyson Grav Torp to suit different situations better.
Or you can try things out and discover things on your own and not wait on someone's permission.
My comment and use of your quote were directed at the OP and used to describe how to create better opportunities to use the Enhanced Bio. torp, which you initially outlined, to better effect.
As for Transphasic they work fine but have a much lower DPS over other torps with most content. I did over 100 hours of testing and both Photons , Plasma and quantum did more DPS by a noticeable amount. Something like a Grav Torp will do more hull damage, more shield damage and more spike damage and more DPS then Transphasics.
Keep in mind torps have a global cd. Photon dps is based on high firerate and low dmg per shot. With 3x purple projectile doffs, you can run into torp global cd wall with as little as 2 photon launchers. The end result is both photon and transphasic torp boats spew one torp every 1.5 sec (1 sec global cd, 0.5 sec activation), the difference is transphasics boat penetrate shields and do more damage per shot. If you're using a Kumari or Avenger for torp boat, use transphasics, since the 4th and 5th photon torp wouldn't contribute to dps anyway, but 4th and 5th transphasics would. If you're using a science boat with only 3 front weapons, photon is fine, the 3rd photon launcher can serve as reserve when you don't get lucky with projectile doff activation.
Transphasics cluster is another issue. Cluster builds utilize 2x high rof torps for projectile doff activation (usually rapid reload transphasics, but some ppl also use photons) and 2x clusters for extreme spike (due to 80% shield penetration of mines). Kumari or Avenger can fit 3x clusters without running into debilitating cd issues due to not enough high rof torps for projectile doff activation.
Yeah...how often is a shield going to regenerate to 50-100? We're talking the Borg and other npc's here...and if we're talking PvP, I don't think there is a shield players would take that doesn't have at least a 100 regen...before stat boosts.
What kind of set(s) and gear were you using during these tests not to mention where were you doing them?
Maybe they're better dps...I haven't tested...I prefer plasma on a torp boat...but still doesn't address the fact that you need so much useless gear to make a Photon boat so efficient.
Normal plasma does rather poor dps. If you're talking about Romulan Plasma, it's in a different league from normal torps. Every torp is aoe and cast aoe burn. A single Romulan Plasma launcher easily outdps Counter Command and Gravimetric photon torps combined, but only if they hit. Against borg, they hit. Against faw spamming voth, they never hit.
Tried pretty much every combination possible on a fed from x2 rapid fire Transphasics with x2 cluster to x1 Cluster with x4 Fleet Transphasic (Avenger) and all the other combinations. Even tried rear disputer turrets to lower hull resistance alongside pattern beta but it didnt work well. Transphasic worked absolutely fine but the kill time and DPS for both solo and in groups was noticeable lower than other torpedoes.
I never managed to get Transphasic anywhere close to what Photon or Quantum can do. The problem is Photon or Quantum do double to triple the damage to shields taking shields down over twice as fast. Once the shields go down 1 hull shot was triple the damage to hull over what Transphasic did. By the time Transphasic had got most targets down to 50% hull Photon or Quantum had stripped the shields away and are 1 or 2 hit away from doing 20k+ hull. 1 in 4 shots of mine do over 20k damage to hull if shields are down.
A prime example are the probes in the STF heading from the gate to the portal. Quantums would do well over 1000 damage to shields after resistance so torpedo spread would pretty much strip the probe groups shields away. Another volley and the probes are all dead if they didnt die from crits in the first volley.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=torpboat_7183
STFs and Azure nebular are my favorite testing grounds.
I'm not sure what you mean by "debilitating" CD issues. Usually with the cluster mine torpedoes, a 3rd launcher is on the same CD rotation as one of the other 2, making it useless to put 3 forward clustermine torps since the 3rd might fire every now and then. If one is in the rear, however, you may be able to make better use of it after launching 1 forward clustermine and other forward torps and turn to expose rear torps. This assumes some long CD torps up front like tric's, hargh'peng, etc, which should force your play style to have to turn to expose the rear weapons to the target. With some short CD torps up front, like photons, you'd still be able to fire forward torps since the CDs are going to make another torp available soon or constantly.
Most ships have weak shields and strong hulls so spend more time with shields down then up. Over an entire mission, event, STF or whatever you are doing on average Transphasic do less damage per shot. Not all the time but on average. I used to sit on probe duty in STFs to test on and Transphasic took much longer to kill them.
ryakidrys beat me to it but I have already written this post so my as well post.
I found x2 Photon with x1 Cluster would out damage x2 Transphasic with x 1 Cluster. The trick is to use slow firing torpedoes in the 3rd to 5th slots if you have 5 slots. The first two torpedoes fire almost none stop but when they dont fire the slower firing torpedoes kick in and fire. This maximizes your DPS. Every 30 seconds or so one of your torpedo is replaced by a high powered shot.
A sci boat with x2 Photons and x1 Cluster or harghpeng over Cluster is far superior to pure Transphasic.
x3 Cluster front is normally a waste of time unless for some reason you are not running Projectile doffs. I would rather have x1 harghpeng and x2 Cluster or even fit in a Bioneural warhead.
I have found with all the resists/traits/OP doffs/fleet gear etc that have come in the last 2 years have made torp boats almost useless for PvP. I used to be pretty effective with a Transphasic build in PvP - but as each new piece of equipment got buffed and more and more resists were added - torps became less and less viable. There have been no buffs to transphasics in years, the new shearing trait helps a bit and there is another trait coming in crafting which adds 10% more shield penetration- so that might help a bit - but torps have been given the back of the bus treatment in this game for a long time.
PvE is different - it is still quite viable to run a torp build as NPC's don't regen shields and they don't have a million and one traits and resists to back stop hull damage. People keep saying the game is to easy - one fix that would really put the hurt on is to give the all NPC's basic Boffs skills like TT or TSS or RSP - that would seriously make the game a whole lot harder without just bumping up the NPCs hit points.
But the whining would be epic on the forums if the Borg got these skills in the next patch - so doubt that will happen.
My favorite torp build testing ground is crystal elite. Nearly stationary target. No shields. lots of stuff to dodge if you want to practice piloting with hit and run tactics. Works well with HY, TS and even mine patterns if you want mines too.
That's just the first build test mission.
Once I was satisfied that I understood the timings of the weapons and BO abilities and got the piloting down, I'd move up to sheilded targets like borg STFs.
The Borg don't do much area attack/ FAW/ spread stuff, except the queen in onslought, so they don't shoot alot of heavy torps/ HY stuff down.
The last step was voth/ undine missions since they tend to do some FAW stuff, and see how the builds work there.
Cluster cd is 45 sec. Cluster global is 15 sec, not additive to universal torp global of 1 sec. The 3rd cluster torp goes out at 31 sec mark (2x 15 sec cd + 2x 0.5 sec activation). Projectile doff have 20% chance of reducing cd by 5 seconds. They may not always reduce cluster cd from 45 sec to 30 sec. "Debilitating" cd issues of fitting 3x clusters are due to having only 1 high rof torp to trigger projectile doff, in a ship with 4 front weapons. It may not even be enough to keep up with torp spread/hy skill that only affect the 1 normal torp and activate per 15 sec, or 2 in 15.5 sec if you preload. In a ship with 5 front weapons, there's room for 2 high rof torps in addition to 3 clusters. It's more desirable and produce higher dps as well as additional spike, since the alternative is fitting 3 high rof torps and 2 clusters, with the 3 high rof torps consistently hitting global cd wall, doing not much more dps than 2 high rof torps which already hit global cd wall often, and sometimes delaying cluster spike by spewing single low dmg torps that fire too frequently for spread/hy that activate per 15 sec to affect them.
Like I said before 3 clusters is always a bad idea. Even with only 1 high rof torp 3 clusters are very bad for damage/DPS.
You also have your torp timings wrong.The cool down limit is 2seconds not 1.5. Even with 5 photons and 4 purple projectiles doffs the average time betweenprojectiles hits will be 2 seconds.
EDIT:
“It's more desirable and produce higher dps as well as additional spike, since the alternative is fitting 3 high rof torps and 2 clusters, with the 3 high rof torps consistently hitting global cd wall,”
3 clusters lowers your spike damage and lowers your DPS. For example 2 high RoF torps and slower 1 Har Peng or bio neural will keep the remaining 2 clusters at max fire rate. So you get a cluster every 15seconds, another powerful shot every 10 seconds then the rest of the shots are the 2 high RoF shots. Or if you go for the bio you get a 2 clusters fireing every 15second but every so often the very powerfull Bio triggers. Overall more DPS then 3 clusters.
Chance based projectile doffs may not always activate often enough to knock down clusters to the point that 2 will saturate their 15 sec shared cd. And when they do, they'll also run the 3 high rof torps into global wall, where they can hog cd and spew out single torps unmodified by spread/hy instead of a cluster that's otherwise ready to fire, reducing dps. 2 high rof torps are already almost at global, leaving just enough gaps for clusters to fire as soon as they're ready. The rule of "no more than 2x clusters" are cited with 4 front weapon ships in mind, not 5 front weapon ships.
Kind of brings up the old saying... "You can't critz if you can't hitz" :cool:
I use the Battleship/Ship generator missions in the Foundry to test builds, piloting, and torpedo timing.
From there I'll run Fleet Alerts and Defenses, concentrating on how long it takes to destroy single targets. I'm particularly interested in Alpha (Coordinated Boff, Torp Special attacks and Captain Abilities) strikes and off-Alpha attacks.
When I'm more confident in a build and it's ability to contribute to the team I'll run STF's.
The rule of no more than 2 clusters for 4 front weapons is even more valid for 5 front weapons. 5 front weapons means 3 clusters are a waste with projectile doffs and 2 high rof torps .
For example 2 high ROF torps with x2 cluster and Hargh’Peng or 2 high ROF torps with x2 cluster and Bio Neural Warhead will out damage 2 high ROF torps and 3 clusters. The first two setups will keep the 2 clusters at 15 second global cooldown and you get extra hard hitting shots from the Bio Neural Warhead or Hargh’Peng which trigger the doffs keeping the cluster firing at max speed.
Look at it this way. Removing the Hargh’Peng or removing the Bio Neural Warhead and fitting a 3rd cluster would give you no extra cluster shots. Which in turn means no extra cluster damage. But you did lose damage and DPS from the Hargh’Peng or Bio Neural Warhead which ever you chose to fit. So why fit 3 clusters when there is no advantage only a distavatge?
EDIT: Another way to look at it.
cluster fires, cluster fires, high rof torp fires, high rof torp fires, nothing fires as the remaining cluster is on 15second cooldown shared with the other clusters and the high ROF torps are 2 second away from firing. By the time the 3rd cluster can fire the 2nd cluster is ready to fire again. Leaving you with a wasted 3rd cluster that isn’t firing.
Or you take the other option cluster fires, cluster fires, high rof torp fires, high rof torp fires, Hargh’Peng fires, clusters ready to fire again. Replace Hargh’Peng with Bio Neural Warhead if hargh peng is too close to globe cool down.
Between 3x high rof torp + 2 cluster, and 2x high rof torp + 3 cluster, both will pump out one torp per 1.5 sec. The difference is in the former, slightly more of these torps will be single low dmg torps instead of clusters.
The 2x high rof torps are there to trigger doffs, not meant to actually do the killing. More of them than necessary is not useful.
There are fits where ppl actually use the ferengi rapid fire missile, which has rof of 2 sec, to trigger doffs, in order to cut trigger launchers down to 1x, for even more room for high dmg low rof specialty torps.