I'm not understanding the Enterprise/Xindi Hate. It's unhealthy.
I do not hate the Xindi per se. I am just dubious about how truly Canon they are. They may exist but a lot of the story around them with the Sphere Builders and all that nonsense could have just been fantasy but it is impossible to know for sure.
As for Enterprise I liked some of it but the parts that break previously established Canon and others parts that were just plain stupid (Temporal Cold War anyone?) are a lot harder to swallow. The Canon following historical parts of it were fun to watch and quite good IMHO. I even kind of liked the Mirror Universe episodes even though they had next to no place in the show. It was still fun to see the fate of the Defiant but they were probably just fantasy as well.
Humans dealt face to face with Ferengi in 1947. From Deep Space Nine episode Little Green Men. Canon and everything.
Yet that incident altered time a bit and was obviously covered up by the government. However, the incident on Enterprise should have been well documented, reported, and later studied. Unless you want to assert that the Enterprise crew was that bad at their job and that unprofessional. (I hate to say it but the argument COULD be made but I suspect that it was unintentional that they behaved in that fashion)
Yeah, but the poster who keeps talking about Acquisiton, the Ferengi episode of ENT, either never saw it or hasn't seen it in quite some time. The episode never reveals the ferengi ARE ferengi. So the continuity of Last Outpost is maintained.
So since they want to hammer home canon, I'll keep bringing up the fact that DS9 threw Quark back in time to 1947, where he interacted with humans quite a bit.
Because I am sure in the report of the incident that the crew really gave a pretty poor description of the Ferengie to the point where the Federation would be holistically incapable of comparing said descriptions to those given of the Ferengie by other species and make a reasonable assumption that they matched. After all, Ferengie look pretty distinct and act pretty distinct from other species.
Also to counter "The Borg were in it therefore it cannot be a holoprogram!" argument: A holonovelist would know about the Borg by this time the TNG timeline, the events of First Contact have happened in the future and in the past and therefore this novelist could have known about the Ramblings concerning creatures that sounded much like the Borg from history. It is a sensational thing in the Novelist's time and so including a supposed explanation as to why the Borg attacked Earth would be very sensational and a good hook to those who played it. The Mirror Episodes are also a perfect example of something a novelist may wish to include to explain what supposedly happened to a ship that went missing a long time ago.
I will grant the show is obviously fiction itself but I think it is very likely based on how it plays out and the last episode and the two Canon breaking issues (trying to ignore the time traveling crud and how in DS9 there was the strong indication that Earth had never been attacked directly by an alien enemy before which could be another bit of Canon breaking directly related to the Xindi) that it is all Metafiction. It is a work of fiction within a fiction. Now there may be historical elements worked in but discerning what is actually fairly realistic and what is embellishment is impossible.
Enterprise happened. People need to get over their fantasies about wanting to negate it simply because they don't agree with it or didn't like it.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
the whole enterprise is a holonovel btw has one major flaw.
when captain archer is taken aboard the Enterprise J the ships in the battle include a Promethius class starship which hadnt been built by then and was a secret prototype that starfleet didn't tell people about even if they had plans on the drawing board.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
If we did get playable Xindi I wonder how often we'll have to explain that we'll never get playable whales because there's no underwater mechanics in the game and whales can't walk around on dry land. :P
yes whales can walk around on dry land....my ex is living proof of that.....wait what??
the whole enterprise is a holonovel btw has one major flaw.
when captain archer is taken aboard the Enterprise J the ships in the battle include a Promethius class starship which hadnt been built by then and was a secret prototype that starfleet didn't tell people about even if they had plans on the drawing board.
you seem to think so many things here.....the Enterprise-J was freaking in the far far far future.
the damn thing is described to be so large that there are several parks, and it even was designed to hold Galaxy Class Sized starships like shuttles.
the Prometheus is an antique in that time frame.
and Enterprise wasn't a holonovel, the last episode was just a sendoff to express all three enterprise focused shows, a farewell if you would.
btw it also had the dauntless from Voyager...so a lot of stuff was in it. I'm pretty sure the Enterprise J carried every ship there....it is called a Universe Class Starship for a reason, and that it explored galaxies.
you seem to think so many things here.....the Enterprise-J was freaking in the far far far future.
the damn thing is described to be so large that there are several parks, and it even was designed to hold Galaxy Class Sized starships like shuttles.
the Prometheus is an antique in that time frame.
and Enterprise wasn't a holonovel, the last episode was just a sendoff to express all three enterprise focused shows, a farewell if you would.
btw it also had the dauntless from Voyager...so a lot of stuff was in it. I'm pretty sure the Enterprise J carried every ship there....it is called a Universe Class Starship for a reason, and that it explored galaxies.
He was actually trying to provide proof to debunk the holonovel theory by sighting the inclusion of a Prometheus class starship in the supposed holonovel.
The supposed holonovel would've needed to have been written before or around Stardate 47457.1 (ST:TNG "The Pegasus") which is when Riker visited the holodeck to view the events that took place in ST:ENT "These Are The Voyages...". Since the USS Prometheus (prototype of the class) wasn't launched until Stardate 50749.5 and at the time of its launch, the Prometheus was so highly classified that only four officers in all of Starfleet were trained to operate the prototype (ST:VOY "Message in a Bottle"), it's highly unlikely, nigh impossible, that such a highly classified ship (which would've still been in development, if at all) could've been included in a supposed holonovel that would've had to have been written, at the latest, 3 years before that ship's launch date.
This is, of course, going on the assumption that, as some would have us believe, the entire Enterprise series was nothing more than holodeck fantasy and therefore that theory could be disproven by pointing out that the inclusion of the Prometheus is a paradox.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
He was actually trying to provide proof to debunk the holonovel theory by sighting the inclusion of a Prometheus class starship in the supposed holonovel.
The supposed holonovel would've needed to have been written before or around Stardate 47457.1 (ST:TNG "The Pegasus") which is when Riker visited the holodeck to view the events that took place in ST:ENT "These Are The Voyages...". Since the USS Prometheus (prototype of the class) wasn't launched until Stardate 50749.5 and at the time of its launch, the Prometheus was so highly classified that only four officers in all of Starfleet were trained to operate the prototype (ST:VOY "Message in a Bottle"), it's highly unlikely, nigh impossible, that such a highly classified ship (which would've still been in development, if at all) could've been included in a supposed holonovel that would've had to have been written, at the latest, 3 years before that ship's launch date.
This is, of course, going on the assumption that, as some would have us believe, the entire Enterprise series was nothing more than holodeck fantasy and therefore that theory could be disproven by pointing out that the inclusion of the Prometheus is a paradox.
ah....well this is where commas and periods and better wording would have prevented my misunderstanding of his words.
ah....well this is where commas and periods and better wording would have prevented my misunderstanding of his words.
Yeah. I just prefer to go with the "it was never the writers' intention, nor has it ever been stated anywhere, that the ST:ENT Series Finale intended to show that the whole TV series was a holodeck fantasy." But what ya gonna do? Haters gonna hate. :rolleyes:
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Yet that incident altered time a bit and was obviously covered up by the government. However, the incident on Enterprise should have been well documented, reported, and later studied. Unless you want to assert that the Enterprise crew was that bad at their job and that unprofessional.
I try to only deal with what's on screen. Should have been is just too slippery a slope. What happened on screen is that they never knew they were called Ferengi. So Last Outpost is preserved.
Whether that meets your standards for "quality" Trek is too subjective for me to really get into. I mean there's examples of bad Trek in each series.
But overall, the story of Last Outpost is maintained. Stretched, but maintained.
Comments
something about aliens....and one has to have a beard.
honestly I forgot.
I do not hate the Xindi per se. I am just dubious about how truly Canon they are. They may exist but a lot of the story around them with the Sphere Builders and all that nonsense could have just been fantasy but it is impossible to know for sure.
As for Enterprise I liked some of it but the parts that break previously established Canon and others parts that were just plain stupid (Temporal Cold War anyone?) are a lot harder to swallow. The Canon following historical parts of it were fun to watch and quite good IMHO. I even kind of liked the Mirror Universe episodes even though they had next to no place in the show. It was still fun to see the fate of the Defiant but they were probably just fantasy as well.
Yet that incident altered time a bit and was obviously covered up by the government. However, the incident on Enterprise should have been well documented, reported, and later studied. Unless you want to assert that the Enterprise crew was that bad at their job and that unprofessional. (I hate to say it but the argument COULD be made but I suspect that it was unintentional that they behaved in that fashion)
Because I am sure in the report of the incident that the crew really gave a pretty poor description of the Ferengie to the point where the Federation would be holistically incapable of comparing said descriptions to those given of the Ferengie by other species and make a reasonable assumption that they matched. After all, Ferengie look pretty distinct and act pretty distinct from other species.
Also to counter "The Borg were in it therefore it cannot be a holoprogram!" argument: A holonovelist would know about the Borg by this time the TNG timeline, the events of First Contact have happened in the future and in the past and therefore this novelist could have known about the Ramblings concerning creatures that sounded much like the Borg from history. It is a sensational thing in the Novelist's time and so including a supposed explanation as to why the Borg attacked Earth would be very sensational and a good hook to those who played it. The Mirror Episodes are also a perfect example of something a novelist may wish to include to explain what supposedly happened to a ship that went missing a long time ago.
I will grant the show is obviously fiction itself but I think it is very likely based on how it plays out and the last episode and the two Canon breaking issues (trying to ignore the time traveling crud and how in DS9 there was the strong indication that Earth had never been attacked directly by an alien enemy before which could be another bit of Canon breaking directly related to the Xindi) that it is all Metafiction. It is a work of fiction within a fiction. Now there may be historical elements worked in but discerning what is actually fairly realistic and what is embellishment is impossible.
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
when captain archer is taken aboard the Enterprise J the ships in the battle include a Promethius class starship which hadnt been built by then and was a secret prototype that starfleet didn't tell people about even if they had plans on the drawing board.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
yes whales can walk around on dry land....my ex is living proof of that.....wait what??
you seem to think so many things here.....the Enterprise-J was freaking in the far far far future.
the damn thing is described to be so large that there are several parks, and it even was designed to hold Galaxy Class Sized starships like shuttles.
the Prometheus is an antique in that time frame.
and Enterprise wasn't a holonovel, the last episode was just a sendoff to express all three enterprise focused shows, a farewell if you would.
btw it also had the dauntless from Voyager...so a lot of stuff was in it. I'm pretty sure the Enterprise J carried every ship there....it is called a Universe Class Starship for a reason, and that it explored galaxies.
He was actually trying to provide proof to debunk the holonovel theory by sighting the inclusion of a Prometheus class starship in the supposed holonovel.
The supposed holonovel would've needed to have been written before or around Stardate 47457.1 (ST:TNG "The Pegasus") which is when Riker visited the holodeck to view the events that took place in ST:ENT "These Are The Voyages...". Since the USS Prometheus (prototype of the class) wasn't launched until Stardate 50749.5 and at the time of its launch, the Prometheus was so highly classified that only four officers in all of Starfleet were trained to operate the prototype (ST:VOY "Message in a Bottle"), it's highly unlikely, nigh impossible, that such a highly classified ship (which would've still been in development, if at all) could've been included in a supposed holonovel that would've had to have been written, at the latest, 3 years before that ship's launch date.
This is, of course, going on the assumption that, as some would have us believe, the entire Enterprise series was nothing more than holodeck fantasy and therefore that theory could be disproven by pointing out that the inclusion of the Prometheus is a paradox.
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
ah....well this is where commas and periods and better wording would have prevented my misunderstanding of his words.
Yeah. I just prefer to go with the "it was never the writers' intention, nor has it ever been stated anywhere, that the ST:ENT Series Finale intended to show that the whole TV series was a holodeck fantasy." But what ya gonna do? Haters gonna hate. :rolleyes:
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
I try to only deal with what's on screen. Should have been is just too slippery a slope. What happened on screen is that they never knew they were called Ferengi. So Last Outpost is preserved.
Whether that meets your standards for "quality" Trek is too subjective for me to really get into. I mean there's examples of bad Trek in each series.
But overall, the story of Last Outpost is maintained. Stretched, but maintained.