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Romulan Republic Alliance with both Fed and KDF is unrealistic...
jaguarskx
Member Posts: 5,945 Arc User
I haven't given the situation with the Romulan faction much thought until I created my Rom toon and reached the point I had to choose between aligning with the Fed or the KDF. Initially before I made my Rom toon, I thought when the player decides to choose either the Fed or the KDF you were making a unilateral decision for the Romulan Republic, not just yourself. This would lead to a sort of two parallel universes coinciding in one universe where the individual choices made by the players do not affect the main story line for each other.
From a reality point of view, the "equal" alliance with both the Fed and KDF during a time of war with between those two factions (at least according to Cryptic) is politically impossible. I don't know of any prominent point in history where a nation had an alliance with two warring nations. That nation would either need to choose a side, thus instantly becoming enemies with the other nation or be neutral with both nations so that it would not be dragged into a war.
I recall that when speaking with the Federation ambassador that he specifically told me if I sided with the Fed, then I as an individual would be an enemy to the KDF and not the Romulan Republic and would become enemies. So then how does this work? The Romulan Republic have an alliance with both the Fed and the KDF, however, the military that serves to project the Romulan Republic can choose to align with either the Fed or the KDF on an individual basis. This means Romulan commanders serving within the Romulan Republic Navy would potentially be enemies of each other since the commander of each ship is free to choose their own allegiance with either the Fed or KDF.
Assuming allegiance to the Romulan Republic trumps all, meaning Romulan commanders are forbidden to enter military engagements with either faction so that Romulan-Feds do not end up fighting Romulan-KDF, then what is the point of aligning with either faction? What actual benefit does the Fed and KDF get in an alliance with the Romulan Republic? Other than technology which the other side is going to get as well.
"I have decided to align with the KDF because you are stronger than the Fed. Our enemies will fear us... Huh... what's that? We are going be engaging in a military strike on the Fed Starbase XYZ tomorrow? Sorry, but I am going to sit that one out because I do not want to potentially fight my fellow Romulan commanders."
In the real world where two nations have a formal alliance with each other but one nation has a group of individuals who's agenda is to fight the other nation, those people would be labeled as terrorists. Is the military backbone of the Romulan Republic nothing more than just mere terrorists?
Perhaps there is more to the Romulan Republic than meets the eye. D'Tan seems to have formulated a master plan to tear apart the Fed and the KDF from the inside.... How very Tal Shiar of you.
From a reality point of view, the "equal" alliance with both the Fed and KDF during a time of war with between those two factions (at least according to Cryptic) is politically impossible. I don't know of any prominent point in history where a nation had an alliance with two warring nations. That nation would either need to choose a side, thus instantly becoming enemies with the other nation or be neutral with both nations so that it would not be dragged into a war.
I recall that when speaking with the Federation ambassador that he specifically told me if I sided with the Fed, then I as an individual would be an enemy to the KDF and not the Romulan Republic and would become enemies. So then how does this work? The Romulan Republic have an alliance with both the Fed and the KDF, however, the military that serves to project the Romulan Republic can choose to align with either the Fed or the KDF on an individual basis. This means Romulan commanders serving within the Romulan Republic Navy would potentially be enemies of each other since the commander of each ship is free to choose their own allegiance with either the Fed or KDF.
Assuming allegiance to the Romulan Republic trumps all, meaning Romulan commanders are forbidden to enter military engagements with either faction so that Romulan-Feds do not end up fighting Romulan-KDF, then what is the point of aligning with either faction? What actual benefit does the Fed and KDF get in an alliance with the Romulan Republic? Other than technology which the other side is going to get as well.
"I have decided to align with the KDF because you are stronger than the Fed. Our enemies will fear us... Huh... what's that? We are going be engaging in a military strike on the Fed Starbase XYZ tomorrow? Sorry, but I am going to sit that one out because I do not want to potentially fight my fellow Romulan commanders."
In the real world where two nations have a formal alliance with each other but one nation has a group of individuals who's agenda is to fight the other nation, those people would be labeled as terrorists. Is the military backbone of the Romulan Republic nothing more than just mere terrorists?
Perhaps there is more to the Romulan Republic than meets the eye. D'Tan seems to have formulated a master plan to tear apart the Fed and the KDF from the inside.... How very Tal Shiar of you.
Post edited by jaguarskx on
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The two powers may have a great deal of animosity, but they also have a number of mutual enemies. By the time the summit at Khitomer starts, the Borg have invaded both powers. The offer of Romulan ships and technology to their individual struggles in exchange for helping to settle a single world must have been very tempting.
Of course, it is still not enough to make them agree, until the Tal Shiar tries to backstab everyone. Oh look, yet another mutual enemy that the Republic could help get rid of.
As for D'Tan tearing apart both powers from the inside, that would be kind of dumb of him. He'd have all the power in the Quadrant, until he gets replaced by an Undine, assimilated by the Borg, or just flat-out killed by the Iconians.
As the seventy-fourth Rule of Acquisition clearly states, knowledge equals profit. And I am a very rich Ferengi.
True, but nevertheless they are still "at war" with each other. However, the war seems to have fell flat on it's face based on how Cryptic tried to or did not even bother to implement it. Offering the same technology to both sides during a time of war does not make sense. I does not really give the Fed or KDF an advantage over the other side.
Reminds of weapon dealers profiting by selling weapons to both sides of the war. It has happened in real life, but typically it occurred behind closed door and not overtly out in the open.
For the moment the Tal Shiar and the remnant Romulan Star Empire are in a state of turmoil and are fighting amongst themselves for power. Not an immediate threat and based on how slowly time passes by in STO compared to real life, I don't really expect any significant return of those two until probably 2016 or 2107.
I am not saying that is what D'Tan wants to do, however, for the Romulan Star Empire / Tal Shiar that would be paradise. It would give them an opportunity to attempt to dominate the Alpha Quadrant and they did not need to lift a finger to instigate anything.
Btw what create at least one space station for romulans in Gasko station style?
Technically, they're still at war when they form Task Force Omega to fight the Borg, and that has Starfleet and KDF ships operating and fighting together under a joint leadership structure long before peace is official.
In fact, that is why the war "fell flat". Borg pushed as far as the Orion Sector into Federation space, and the Klingons are even worse off. Quay'ghun is a "battlefield" between Borg Drones and Klingon Warriors, and it's only two lightyears away from Q'rono's! That's closer than Wolf 359 is to Earth! We never see the initial invasion of Klingon space, but it must have been rough.
By the time the game actually starts, they are still "at war", but the actual conflicts between the two are limited, as both sides are getting ready to resist the Borg invasion. There's no official peace, but they stop large scale fighting outside of the contested Neutral Zone as a matter of practicality.
And offering the same technology to both sides makes perfect sense, unless one of them wants to be the one without Romulan cloaking technology, while their enemies get it.
These two ideas kind of contradict. They either are not a threat, or they are about to lay waste to two major powers . . . somehow . . . using D'Tan.
French / poles/cheks/other european army retreated to thye UK then reinvaded europe at D-Day as armys to reclainm there homelands
Same thing just no starships
Some of those who stayed behind joined the germans.........it wasnt pretty when the two meet
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Fully agreed... It does not make a whole lot of sense.
The difference is those were conquered French, Poles, etc. Thus, those nations / people were absorbed into the German 3rd Reich, thus into the German military.
In STO Romulans allying with the Fed or the KDF are still citizens of the Romulan Republic. If Romulan military ends up fighting itself based on which faction each player chooses, then that would erupt into civil war / military coup until with the Romulan-Fed or the Romulan-KDF prevails.
Another option would simply be to have a total of 3 different Romulan factions. The Romulan Star Empire (with the Tal Shiar), Romulan-Fed faction and the Romulan-KDF faction. The Romulan Star Empire would be the mutual enemy of the Romulan-Fed and Romulan-KDF factions. This would further weaken the Romulans who wish to be free of the Romulan Star Empire because resource with divided between the two. Eventually that would also mean that there could be a resource war between the Romulan-Fed and Romulan-KDF factions as they attempt to lay claim valuable resources to stabilize and eventually expand their respective republics.
If the current war were actually an all out war, it would be a major issue and an impossible situation. But the war never was all out --- it seemed to mostly consist of small raiding parties and harassment/piracy. Given that, it seems possible enough.
Honestly the "war" and other conflicts are all there just to give the players something to do. The "minor species of aliens" to fight thing wears thin, and its a combat game so we need *someone* to shoot at, so....... you see where that goes.
The idea that it is only a small scale war is the best way to explain it (although - a full-time-marauding/ military session on a romulan-KDF-Ship could mean A LOT of attacs against the Federation in short time...:D)
For a significantly weakened nation like the Republic to attempt this and more-going so far as to send armed and crewed warships to fight in the Navies of the KDF and Federation-that just seems monumentally foolheardy. realistically I imagine such a scenario would end with the annexation of the Republic by one of the combatants-probably the Klingons in this case. I really can't imagine the Klingons thinking playing the two sides against each other such as the Republic is openly doing as remotely 'honorable' and imagine they would think of it as typical Romulan scheming and grounds for invasion. They already tried to invade the Empire earlier in the backstory for far less provocation when they appeared weak, it's hard to imagine them letting this opportunity pass them by.
And with the number of enemies both have the end of the end of the cold war couldn't come fast enough.
Well, cold war did end rather quickly. It started sometime in 2409 and it ended at the beginning of 2410. That's is potentially less than one year.
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You're not offering technology. You're offering material and personnel. Put it another way. One Romulan joins the Fed, one joins the KDF. These two loyal officers of the Romulan Republic are now obligated to shoot at each other.
That's where things go wonky.
As the seventy-fourth Rule of Acquisition clearly states, knowledge equals profit. And I am a very rich Ferengi.
The poster is likely referring to situations where the Fed fleet and KDF fleet engage in space combat. This would be a common occurrence in war time conditions. The Fed fleet would likely have have Romulan Fed Aligned starships while the KDF would have Romulan KDF Aligned starships. The Fed and KDF are at war with each other. However, the Romulan ships on both sides are loyal to the Romulan Republic.
What happens in this situation? Obviously the Fed and KDF starships will fight each other. But what about the Romulan starships? It is important to note that the Romulan starships are part of the Romulan Republic Navy, they are not privateers.
Will the Fed aligned and KDF aligned Romulan starships attack each other? In all likelihood no. The Romulan Republic is not at war with itself. If Romulans attack Romulans, then this could end up starting a civil war and military coup in the Romulan Republic.
How about if the Romulans starships only attack Fed or KDF starships depending on which faction they are aligned with? In either case both the Fed and KDF would accuse the Romulans of aiding the enemy. This is kinda like a three sided war. Fed attacks KDF. KDF attacks Fed. The Romulans attacks both Fed and KDF.
On the flip side, what happens when Fed starships fires on Romulan KDF-Aligned starships or vice versa, KDF starships fires on Romulan Fed-Aligned starships? The Romulans have an alliance with both Fed and KDF. How would the Romluan Republic respond when either the Fed or the KDF attacks Romulan starships? The Romulan are allies with the Fed, but the Fed attacked Romulan Republic starships who's captains decided to align themselves with the KDF. The Romulans are allies with the KDF, but the KDF attacked Romulan Republic starships who's captains decided to align themselves with the KDF. All Romulan starship captains regardless if they are Fed or KDF aligned are loyal to the Romulan Republic.
How about if the Romulan starships simply do not attack anyone? This prevents a possible civil war and military coup in the Romulan Republic which is a good thing. However, both the Fed and KDF can accuse the Romulans of breaking the terms of their alliances. In times of war allies help fellow allies. However, helping both the Fed and the KDF brings the Romulan back to the point of a possible civil war and military coup.
Does any of this make any sense?
But now with S9 the war ended and the triple member alliance is suitable.
But a bit of the game is rather bad in promoting the feel the war is over. As a KDF guy, I can still go on Marauder missions to capture Federation personnel and sell them to Orion Slavers, or raid Federation facilities for whatever. I can go on Espionage missions to sabotage Reman facilities, etc., despite the Empire being allied with the Romulan Republic (and thus the Reman Resistance led by Obisek, who is subordinate to D'Tan).
The idea of the alliance made no sense because this game's writing and direction made no sense for such a long time.
Jeez guys, we were literally fighting Dinosaurs that shoot Lasers from their friggin' heads with S8!
Now, personally, in my own perfect world with STO, there would be a full fledged war between the Federation, Klingon Empire, and a playable Romulan Star Empire that's trying to gather the pieces since Romulus' doom. 3 separate, playable, fleshed out factions.
Yeah, never going to happen.
Correct. There's a major difference between lesser political agreements... similarly aligned powers working with each other due to shared interests. Then there's the most significant of political agreements, to be allied with someone or others. This isn't just political. It's military. Attacking one member is an attack on all, and all members work toward a common strategy and goal against a particular enemy (or enemies). Help from an ally is expected.
Which is why the Romulan Republic's alliance with the then at war Federation & Klingon Empire was stupid. Allies expect obligations to be fulfilled when under duress. If you can't fulfill your end as a close friend (which is what an ally is), then what good are you? And why are you still my ally if you refuse to help me against an enemy, which, as an ally, you are obligated to fight against?
And IF the Romulan captains detached to aid their Federation or Klingon allies come across each other, WTH are they supposed to do? Fight against each other despite being from the same navy? That's stupid? Then WTH are their allies seeing if they cannot be of help if they don't join the fight as an ally?
STO just made it a mess until the war was ended.
An alliance in actual history was the closest form of commitment you could make politically and militarily. It was the same in Star Trek. The shattering of the Federation - Klingon alliance in TNG was a horrifying prospect, one that Picard under the direction of the Federation took great strides in preventing. The shattering of the alliance just before the Dominion War only weakened the Klingon Empire before the REAL fighting began, and in effect, put the Federation in a bind when the alliance was restarted... after all, the Klingons lost a number of ships when repulsed by the Cardassians with their new Dominion ally.
Or, you know, the idea that every piece of content predating season 9 still takes place in 2409.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Firstly, Republic forces would be prohibited from being used in engagements with the Federation/Klingons, nor in support of the ongoing Federation/Klingon War. This means no Republic ships would ever have the chance of engaging each other and minimizes the chance of the loss of Republic personnel.
What good does this do for the Klingons/Federation? Quite simple: it frees up manpower to fight the war. Nausican Pirates on the frontier nowhere near the front? Send in the Romulans. True Way acting up? Send in the Romulans. Civilian scientists needing a starship to chart a dangerous nebula? Send in the Romulans. Breen raiding your borders? Send in the Romulans (they may even do that one gratis). The Federation and Klingon Empires are BIG, and even if they were at all out total war (which they never really were), they can not commit 100% of their fleets to the war, they need to maintain supply lines, deal with behind the lines issues, maintain their borders with other neighbors. For all those things, the Republic's Warbirds can step into the gap, freeing up ships to go fight the on the front. It also means that scientific projects that would have had to been sidelined due to the starships being needed elsewhere could still push forward (remember, the Romulans were just as scientifically minded as the Federation, so committing a warbird to chart something/research something isn't seen as a junk job like it is with the Kliingons).
Federation and Klingon planners know that Republic ships would refuse to engage one another and complicate things. They wouldn't put them in circumstances where they would be put into those circumstances.
Given this knowledge, the size of the Federation and Klingon Empires, this is the OBVIOUS solution to this dilemma, and in fact the non-Romulan featured episodes that the Romulans get reflect this, at least Federation side (I cannot comment on Klingon side as I have no Kling aligned Rommies).
This isn't even that hard to reason from the information and circumstances provided in game. What do you expect from Cryptic, to be handed a detailed 1000 page worldbook outlining how exactly everything works? Yeah, sometimes they do need more detail, but at the same time, I hoped people had a miocum of intelligence when it comes to logistics and deployment...
They are not by any means obligated to shoot at one another, because they have joined neither the Klingon Empire nor the United Federation of Planets. They have allied themselves with one or the other. Alliance is neither membership nor citizenship.
Yes, thank you. As allies of the Federation war effort, Fed-Romulans were obligated to offer battle to, if not seek and destroy, Klingon forces. As allies of the Empire, KDF-Romulans were obligated to destroy Federation forces.
This idea could have worked if the Romulan players were remnants of a destroyed civilization, allying themselves with existing powers as a means of survival. Romulans-as-privateers would fit this dynamic perfectly. Instead we get the Republic and, well, no. Logic puts a phaser to its head and sets for maximum kill.
As the seventy-fourth Rule of Acquisition clearly states, knowledge equals profit. And I am a very rich Ferengi.
The best and the brightest captains of the Republic are out serving Starfleet and the KDF, doing some of their missions for them and basically saving them manpower. For every mission where a Romulan Republic ship is sent out to do it is one less Starfleet/KDF vessel out doing something dangerous and can be sent elsewhere.
Particularly in Starfleet's case, they do get cloaks and singularity cores in a sense. Due to some treaty (which I see no point it anymore given the RSE's current weak state) we can't use cloaks ourselves...
But if we do have a mission that requires cloaking, we now have our friendly Romulan Republic captains go do it for us.
This isn't very unusual though. Volunteers (and even military observers/attachments) has been made for both sides in a conflict several times.
But never officially backed volunteers for both sides provided by the same group.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/