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Weapons and STO, what went wrong
talonxv
Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
Disclaimer: These are merely my views, I am not attempting to speak for everybody as a whole.
I have been thinking about ship weapons for a while now and I REALLY think PWE/Cryptic screwed the pooch as far as weaponry goes in this game. Except for levels deciding on how powerful a weapon is, you can have basically the same kind of weapon system build pretty much the same game.
While I like the level system, that can be added to and for certain classes and make it so there is more variety.
I'll start with cannons. For the most part the ground work is there, but they didn't really do a good job breaking up how each works and saying only certain classes can use certain weapons. For analogies I'll be using modern day ship weapons.
Also, I think PWE needs to stop tracking damage in DPS per weapon and needs to go more towards Damage per single shot, damage per firing cycle, how many shots are in a cycle, then how fast the weapon reloads. This will make more sense as I go on.
Starting out with the 360 cannon turret. To me, this weapon almost works like it should in the game and ofcourse should be able to be used by any ship in the fleet. They are the modern day CWIS gatling guns. Take down incoming projectiles and are hell against small fast moving fighters, which they do in the game and can toss in some dps for rear mounted guns against bigger ships but not too much. Low dmg per shot, HIGHEST RoF, and one of the fastest reload times.
Single cannons. Basically the utility 5 inch gun in the game. Any ship can use them ofcourse and their utility is decent dmg per shot, good RoF, 180 degree firing arc. Basically as we see now.
Ok here's where some changes go in.
Dual cannons. Basically a single cannon stuck with a second cannon. Double the damage per shot of a single, slightly longer cycle rate of firing because of the two cannons, but double the reload time because you have to charge up two cannons. They should get a 90 firing arc. So you get more damage, but less arc, and a longer reload than a standard cannon. In modern terms a dual mounted 5 inch cannon, but you have to take twice as long to reload as a standard cannon and you can't turn it as much because of more stuff going into the weapon
Quad cannons. Basically the strongest weapon an escort can mount. 4X the firepower, longer fighing cycle, but it pays for it as haivng 4 times the reload of a single cannon. So it's a good burst fire weapon, but once you shoot your wad, you got a while to wait before you load up again and fire. And only the standard 35 deg arc. Basically this is like having 4 5 inch guns grouped up to fire. You can get an impressive salvo out of them, but you're gonna have to wait to reload all 4 cannons.
Dual Heavy cannons. These bad boys should be the 16 inch guns of the game. They do the most damage per shot for a cannon, but have a slow cycle rate and a long reload like the quad cannons. I'd also give them 180 deg firing arcs And they are restricted to battle cruisers and up that can mount cannons.
Now by splitting cannons up like this, we start having different playstyles when it comes to cannons. If you want the big bad Dual Heavies, well you gotta play big ships that can mount them. Also by making the reload times different because of damage output, now you have to think about "OK do I want a burst heavy ship, but now i have X long reload, or do I want a steady rate of fire with single cannons."
With arrays, I think the same philosophy should follow.
360 arrays. Lightest damage arrays that can fire 360. Infact less damage than the 360 turret so you could spray with 8 of these, but you will not be doing really any damage. Usable on any ship.
Light arrays, 250 deg arc. Basically what the standard array is today. Fires quickly, does good amount of damage. Usable on any ship.
Heavy arrays. Limtied to cruisers. Fire slower than light arrays, but hit harder. And have a smaller Arc. Also a longer reload than the light arrays. Restricted to cruisers and up.
DBB: IMO this was a bad idea to allow any ship to use thses. These should be like the DHC I listed earlier. Smaller arc, HEAVIER beam, only can be used by the bigger ships. Basically Rear admiral class and up. Basically two heavy arrays tied together for a bigger punch. Heaviest damage out of an array style weapon, but a longer reload. Restricted to Heavy cruisers and up. Cannot be mounted on small escorts, but larger ones could mount them.
These are the ideas rolling around in my head. I am not saying "IT SHOULD BE THIS WAY ONLY!" This idea is merely a guide post to where I think STO weapons should head. Now if somebody has a better idea, or would like to change my ideas, please do so.
But I think there should be a change to how weapons work in this game.
I have been thinking about ship weapons for a while now and I REALLY think PWE/Cryptic screwed the pooch as far as weaponry goes in this game. Except for levels deciding on how powerful a weapon is, you can have basically the same kind of weapon system build pretty much the same game.
While I like the level system, that can be added to and for certain classes and make it so there is more variety.
I'll start with cannons. For the most part the ground work is there, but they didn't really do a good job breaking up how each works and saying only certain classes can use certain weapons. For analogies I'll be using modern day ship weapons.
Also, I think PWE needs to stop tracking damage in DPS per weapon and needs to go more towards Damage per single shot, damage per firing cycle, how many shots are in a cycle, then how fast the weapon reloads. This will make more sense as I go on.
Starting out with the 360 cannon turret. To me, this weapon almost works like it should in the game and ofcourse should be able to be used by any ship in the fleet. They are the modern day CWIS gatling guns. Take down incoming projectiles and are hell against small fast moving fighters, which they do in the game and can toss in some dps for rear mounted guns against bigger ships but not too much. Low dmg per shot, HIGHEST RoF, and one of the fastest reload times.
Single cannons. Basically the utility 5 inch gun in the game. Any ship can use them ofcourse and their utility is decent dmg per shot, good RoF, 180 degree firing arc. Basically as we see now.
Ok here's where some changes go in.
Dual cannons. Basically a single cannon stuck with a second cannon. Double the damage per shot of a single, slightly longer cycle rate of firing because of the two cannons, but double the reload time because you have to charge up two cannons. They should get a 90 firing arc. So you get more damage, but less arc, and a longer reload than a standard cannon. In modern terms a dual mounted 5 inch cannon, but you have to take twice as long to reload as a standard cannon and you can't turn it as much because of more stuff going into the weapon
Quad cannons. Basically the strongest weapon an escort can mount. 4X the firepower, longer fighing cycle, but it pays for it as haivng 4 times the reload of a single cannon. So it's a good burst fire weapon, but once you shoot your wad, you got a while to wait before you load up again and fire. And only the standard 35 deg arc. Basically this is like having 4 5 inch guns grouped up to fire. You can get an impressive salvo out of them, but you're gonna have to wait to reload all 4 cannons.
Dual Heavy cannons. These bad boys should be the 16 inch guns of the game. They do the most damage per shot for a cannon, but have a slow cycle rate and a long reload like the quad cannons. I'd also give them 180 deg firing arcs And they are restricted to battle cruisers and up that can mount cannons.
Now by splitting cannons up like this, we start having different playstyles when it comes to cannons. If you want the big bad Dual Heavies, well you gotta play big ships that can mount them. Also by making the reload times different because of damage output, now you have to think about "OK do I want a burst heavy ship, but now i have X long reload, or do I want a steady rate of fire with single cannons."
With arrays, I think the same philosophy should follow.
360 arrays. Lightest damage arrays that can fire 360. Infact less damage than the 360 turret so you could spray with 8 of these, but you will not be doing really any damage. Usable on any ship.
Light arrays, 250 deg arc. Basically what the standard array is today. Fires quickly, does good amount of damage. Usable on any ship.
Heavy arrays. Limtied to cruisers. Fire slower than light arrays, but hit harder. And have a smaller Arc. Also a longer reload than the light arrays. Restricted to cruisers and up.
DBB: IMO this was a bad idea to allow any ship to use thses. These should be like the DHC I listed earlier. Smaller arc, HEAVIER beam, only can be used by the bigger ships. Basically Rear admiral class and up. Basically two heavy arrays tied together for a bigger punch. Heaviest damage out of an array style weapon, but a longer reload. Restricted to Heavy cruisers and up. Cannot be mounted on small escorts, but larger ones could mount them.
These are the ideas rolling around in my head. I am not saying "IT SHOULD BE THIS WAY ONLY!" This idea is merely a guide post to where I think STO weapons should head. Now if somebody has a better idea, or would like to change my ideas, please do so.
But I think there should be a change to how weapons work in this game.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
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It was so rare for multiple arrays to be fired at once on screen that the Fire at Will ability would have more than adequately represented it in game.
Very VERY VERY bad idea, these things are as OP as they need to be, a 180 arc would toss beam arrays and all the other things off the list of weapons to use, and cause EVEN LESS people to use cruisers, carriers or science vessels
Depends. I'm not talking about DHCs as they are now. I'm talking a DHC set where it can turn and fire, and you have a LOOONG reload. Not DHC as they are now.
Basically the cannon fires 4 times in a cycle. Then it has say a 20 second reload. So big burst but long reload.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Again, I am just trying to get the overall idea out there, but hey tweak away.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
It seems a lot of the proposed cannon changes keep dps the same for all types, just with different burst damage. I'm not sure how good this would be. The current system bases dps on firing arc, and only exchanges burst damage for firing speed between DC's and DHC's. So with the OP's system, a gun you can only fire when you get the enemy lined up just right would do the same dps as a cannon you can keep trained on the enemy and firing 90% of the time, due to a wider firing arc. Not really sure if that'd be an improvement or step backwards.
Having more choice in trading burst damage for firing rate would be interesting, but I'm not a huge fan of basing futuristic energy weapons on modern naval guns. There's bound to be similarities, but Trek ships don't fly around with big armored turrets like battleships, and their weapons don't have to necessarily be constrained by modern conventions.
Something that would be cool, along the OP's lines of cruiser-exclusive weapons, would be joined arrays. Instead of firing individual beams, all Joined Arrays on a cruiser would fire together, perhaps sacrificing some proc chance for extra Beam Overload power and maybe general DPS boost. FAW would maybe default to firing individual arrays for its duration. Essentially, activating one Joined Array takes the number of other Joined Arrays equipped into account when calculating damage, but puts them all into cooldown.
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'd also like to see something done with torps. They're so badly misrepresented in this game that it's just sad. They should be the big, bad, heavy hitting weapons that we often see in the shows. Just something other than the sad state of torps we have now.
Mine Trap Supporter
hello there i made a similiar threat maybe we can get that together or something:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1127291&highlight=Modular+Weapons
Dual Cannons should be able to be mounted on the rear arc, and all of them should have their arcs increased to 90 degrees. This would further incentivize strafing run tactics and not just parking an escort and firing. DHCs stay the same, Single Cannons can also be mounted on the aft.
Turrets should be able to be affected by ALL boff skills, meaning CSV, CRF, and BFAW, BO. Now you don't need to include an entirely separate item type in the game to complement the DBB/Turret build common to many scis.
Certain ship types, I'm thinking Fed Cruisers, Flight-Deck Cruisers, and Dreadnoughts should be able to load a new weapon type, beam lances. Replace the innate ability on the Gal-X with a unique phaser lance fused to a fifth fore slot, and have the old cooldown become a new three piece set bonus for having all the Galaxy consoles equipped on the ship. Lances would be heavy damage long recharge weapons with high drain. Give them bonus kinetic damage against unshielded targets, and make them much less effective against things with their shields up. Against bare hull though, they'd be monstrous. Maybe let them fire at range without damage drop off, too. Unsure as to what the arc should be on these, I'd say something like 200, not full beam range but enough to do a broadside if you position carefully.
Things could have gotten interesting if energy weapons were actual entities tha had to hit the target.
For instance, DHC's could be a slow powerful type energy blast, ideal for hitting large and slow heavily shielded targets, but a poor choice for taking out a fast and nimble escort.
DC's could then have been great dogfighting weapons, but not ideally suited for taking out cruisers, making a "mixed" synergy desirable, or all out the one or the other if you wanted to build an intereceptor or a tank destroyer so to speak.
All awesome ideas and fitting for how weapons actually work on ships/vehicles of war. I do like the heavy beam array too, this would be an ideal weapon for the larger less manueverable cruisers. I suggested the heavy beam array once before and also the ability to have mounting points for light turrets which would be useful against fighters and heavy torps.
i think torps should stay as they are in function, but the damage should be universal 2000 points of damage to either shields or hull. the limiting factor being you only get x amount of torpedoes before you have to reload. in addition, loadouts would be based on size of ship. just to put rough numbers, a defiant would have 25 an excelsior say 75 a galaxy would have 150 and the Odyssey 200. you would have the choice of what torpedo you load. so if you wanted 50 photons 40 transphasics 20 chronitons and the rest plasma, so be it.
just as refitting any other consumable you would have to buy replacements
I like this idea, I suggested something similiar with grenades.