test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Why do ST tv Captains wear red?

2

Comments

  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    artan42 wrote: »
    24th century colour codes are:

    Red- Command and tactical
    Yellow- Engineering and Operations
    Blue- Science
    Green- Medical

    Picard was a helmsman, Janeway a science officer, and Sisko an engineer before becoming commanders where they joined the command department and wore red.

    They would however routinely tweak a character's placement based on what looks good in a group shot or with an actor's complexion.

    Data was always supposed to be the science officer but yellow worked better with his makeup so they made him head of operations AND sciences.

    Likewise, I'm pretty sure they made Dax a science officer primarily to balance out the uniform colors. There isn't a LOT that hinged on her being a science officer, story-wise.

    Also, security could be considered operations or tactical depending on what costumes were available that day, what fit, and what looked flattering (actors shared costumes).

    In the Original Series (where colors were different), I seem to recall them trying to avoid putting women in gold because it looked less flattering and they even eventually got Kirk away from the gold towards the green and gold wrap. Marla McGivers, the social scientist from Space Seed, wore red almost purely because it was seen as having more sex appeal with her hair and skintone.

    So the rules are general and broken a fair amount.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    I noticed that Captains Sisko, Picard and Janeway (I am sure the other Captains too) are always wearing the colour red. Is it because they are all Tactical Officers promoted as Captains OR because it's merely the colours of Higher Ups? Please, no tv show spoilers about why or how it came to be (I am watching DS9, and don't want any spoilers related to any ST shows). All I want to know is why their uniforms are always red.

    yellow was used during ent and tos, during ent it was a yellow stripe around the shoulders to inner-upper chest area. tos it was all yellow, could be a jumper or a wrap around jumper, sometimes the captain could wear green. after this it was red because no matter the chosen field, to progress you needed to learn command and command was in red, pre ds9 it was a black jump suit with a red torso color front and black but not the sides. after this it was a black jumpsuit with colored shoulders and colored undershirt. then the dominion war came and it changed to a light pink shoulders with optional black jumpsuit or two piece black pants and black jacket with pink shoulders, undershirt was colored.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    In TOS, they'd break color rules for little reason. In TMP, there's still debate about what colors meant. By TNG, they'd come up with excuses to get people in the most flattering colors.

    If they'd had a security chief on a show who looked better in blue, I'm pretty sure they would have said the security chief was a weapon researcher or designer to justify putting them in blue.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Oh and as a sidebar, I believe we saw Geordi's father as the one admiral who wore department colors rather than command color primarily because they thought Ben Vereen looked better in blue or maybe because that was the color of the uniform that fit him.

    The uniforms were considered expensive at the time. Riker, Chakotay, and Sisko shared uniforms. They actually changed the designs in First Contact primarily to justify DS9 getting different uniforms than Voyager because the washing from sharing uniforms was starting to wear them out. To justify the cost of making more, they had to introduce a new design that would allow for new merch and write it off under a movie budget.

    Heck, in TNG's pilot, Riker takes a tour of the ship and wanders into engineering for only one reason: the pilot had a higher budget and Paramount wouldn't pay for an engineering set based on a normal episode budget. So they wrote a random scene with the warp core, extra hallways, and had lots of people on the bridge to get Paramount to let them use the pilot budget on more costumes and sets.

    If Riker had not wandered into main engineering in the pilot, they probably would have been forced to either have a cheaper warp core set or go the whole seven years without showing main engineering. (Keep in mind, none of the main cast in the pilot were even engineers. Geordi was a helm officer.) So without that random scene, they'd have probably spent seven years without showing engineering and they would have probably kept Geordi as a navigator.
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Oh and as a sidebar, I believe we saw Geordi's father as the one admiral who wore department colors rather than command color primarily because they thought Ben Vereen looked better in blue or maybe because that was the color of the uniform that fit him.

    Georgi's father held the rank of Commander, not Admiral.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    In TOS, they'd break color rules for little reason. In TMP, there's still debate about what colors meant. By TNG, they'd come up with excuses to get people in the most flattering colors.

    If they'd had a security chief on a show who looked better in blue, I'm pretty sure they would have said the security chief was a weapon researcher or designer to justify putting them in blue.

    during these movies all uniforms were all standard regulation one color and size fits all, however there were rank insignia to tell apart the different officers, but nothing beyond that.

    i will leave this right here: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_uniform
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • askatusaskatus Member Posts: 157 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    nikkojt wrote: »
    I thought Tactical and Operations were much the same in the 24th century. Worf wore gold as the Enterprise's tactical officer, and security teams were always in gold. Red was Command-only.
    Also, the colour distinction between science and medical was inconsistent at best. The EMH and Bashir wore blue.

    In the very first series of TNG Worf wore red at first, and filled in on a variety of posts. Then Tasha Yar died and he became security and tactical officer, and switched to a gold uniform. He stayed in gold until he returned to command branch on DS9.
    You shoot me down
    But I respawn
    I am duranium!
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    nikkojt wrote: »
    I thought Tactical and Operations were much the same in the 24th century.
    Half and half. Every helmsman(tactical) wore command colors as far as I can remember(the Sulus, the redshirt from First Contact, etc)

    STO just ordered them better IMO.

    Edit: Though either way, Tuvok would be wearing red anyway. 8D
  • eisenshorneisenshorn Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    TOS Movies:

    Everyone=Red

    This isn't true.

    The colours in the movies were:

    White = Command
    Gold = Operations (Engineering and Helm branch)
    Grey = Operations (Navigation/Astrometrics, Communications, Scientific Research and Technical)
    Light Green = Science & Medical
    Windsor (Dark) Green = Security
    Sky Blue = Special Services (Starfleet Branch)
    Dark Blue = Special Services (Federation Branch)
    Red = Cadet and Trainee Junior Officers
    Black = Enlisted
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    during these movies all uniforms were all standard regulation one color and size fits all, however there were rank insignia to tell apart the different officers, but nothing beyond that.

    i will leave this right here: [url][/url]

    The TOS movies (outside of TMP) did have division colors. These movies and ENT were the only ones with more subtle division markings.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • admrenlarreckadmrenlarreck Member Posts: 2,041 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    artan42 wrote: »
    24th century colour codes are:

    Red- Command and tactical
    Yellow- Engineering and Operations
    Blue- Science
    Green- Medical

    Picard was a helmsman, Janeway a science officer, and Sisko an engineer before becoming commanders where they joined the command department and wore red.

    This is almost right, I have read so many Technical manuals that I cant remember which one had the info but the colors were

    TOS (source is the Starfleet Technical manual copyright 1970's)

    gold command and ships Operations
    Red Engineering and Security
    Blue Medical and sciences



    From TNG onward (I think this color source is the Next Generation Technical Manual. I just dont feel like pulling out the manuals right now.)

    Red- command and Ships Operations
    Gold- Engineering and ships Security
    blue/teal- Science and medical.
    fayhers_starfleet.jpg


    Fleet leader Nova Elite

    Fleet Leader House of Nova elite
    @ren_larreck
  • foundrelicfoundrelic Member Posts: 1,380 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Becasue Tactical and COmmand share the color.

    Command track puts you in a red uniform even if your speciaty is Engineering or Science.

    EX: Janeway was a scientist but upon changing to the command track she was placed in a red uniform.

    Same with Crusher in All Good Things, red uniform.


    Infact there has only ever been ONE instance of a command officer (An Admiral in this case) wearing anything other than red, Deep Space Nine, It was literally one scene and it hasn't happened since.
  • mosquito214mosquito214 Member Posts: 138 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Honestly, I like the way STO handles it more than the shows. Mixing security and engineers together was kind of odd, and the whole "Command" division doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I get having captains and first officers in their own color, but all the ensigns and helmsmen, too?

    Meanwhile, STO creates the three distinct divisions, and with the new 2410 unifom, also sets captains apart by giving them the fancy white shoulders instead of dark grey. So if we put all the old captains in STO uniforms, they'd all have white shoulders on the black jumpsuit, but Janeway would have the blue stripe, Sisko would have the gold, and Picard and Kirk would have red. Or maybe Picard would be blue, wasn't he a xenoarchaeologist?
  • maracroftmaracroft Member Posts: 201 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Because it's the colors Gene "The Great Bird of the Galaxy" Roddenberry decided on.
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    TOS:

    Command=Yellow
    Medical/Science=Blue
    Engineering/Security=Red


    TOS Movies:

    Everyone=Red


    TNG Onward:

    Command=Red
    Medical/Science=Blue
    Engineering/Security=Yellow


    STO:

    Command/Security=Red
    Medical/Science=Blue
    Engineering=Yellow




    In the Original Series, Operations was also color-coded red.


    In STO, Operations, as it was in The Next Generation, is color-coded yellow/gold.
  • t0xsick2t0xsick2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    Is this a thread for people who never watched the show at all? :P
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    t0xsick2 wrote: »
    Is this a thread for people who never watched the show at all? :P

    What I've learned from the STO forums is exactly how many self-professed fans of the show and movies are unfamiliar with what was actually on the show and movies.
  • stf65stf65 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    tekehd wrote: »
    What I've learned from the STO forums is exactly how many self-professed fans of the show and movies are unfamiliar with what was actually on the show and movies.
    +1 to this for being so true.
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The TOS movies (outside of TMP) did have division colors. These movies and ENT were the only ones with more subtle division markings.


    The Motion Picture did have divisional colors. They were included as the colored background, on the circular Enterprise uniform badge.




    Command=White

    Operations=Pale Gold

    Medical=Pale Green

    Science=Orange

    Security=Grey

    Engineering=Red
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    The Motion Picture did have divisional colors. They were included as the colored background, on the circular Enterprise uniform badge.




    Command=White

    Operations=Pale Gold

    Medical=Pale Green

    Science=Orange

    Security=Grey

    Engineering=Red

    Additionally the small shoulder pieces where TRIBBLE was displayed also had division based colors under the rank markings.... using the same color scheme as the badge background.
  • stf65stf65 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    tekehd wrote: »
    Additionally the small shoulder pieces where TRIBBLE was displayed also had division based colors under the rank markings.... using the same color scheme as the badge background.
    TRIBBLE? Did elmer fudd invade the forum? :D
  • aaronh42aaronh42 Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    In TNG, DS9 and VOY it was a more broad distinction, it wasn't broken down by department but function:

    Command was red (This is specfically high level command, IE: Station commanders, ship captains, admiralty and their staff.)
    Ship functions were Yellow (This is why engineering/maintaining the ship and security of the ship are both yellow)
    Sciences were blue (This is why until DS9 we didn't have a main character who was science except the doctors division. They were mostly researchers and analysts. Medical is considered science because they engaged in more than just treating people, every scientist we saw also ran medical experiments and acted as xenobiologists.)
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    aaronh42 wrote: »
    Sciences were blue (This is why until DS9 we didn't have a main character who was science except the doctors division.)

    Spock called and said he wants to have a word with you.
  • aaronh42aaronh42 Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    tekehd wrote: »
    Spock called and said he wants to have a word with you.

    Specifically talking about the TNG era
  • bhthephoenixbhthephoenix Member Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    flash525 wrote: »
    Pretty much bang on, although there are exceptions here such as Tuvok being a Tactical Officer and wearing Yellow.

    Security always wears yellow/gold.
  • zipagatzipagat Member Posts: 1,204 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    aaronh42 wrote: »
    Specifically talking about the TNG era

    Probably because the operations officer seemed to replace the science officer on the bridge during the TNG era, Data and Harry Kim being the examples of this.
  • thratch1thratch1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    aaronh42 wrote: »
    Command was red (This is specfically high level command, IE: Station commanders, ship captains, admiralty and their staff.)

    This isn't necessarily how it went in the show, though.

    While Command always wore Red, Red was not exclusively the color of Command.

    In both TNG and VOY, Ensign-ranked Helmsmen wore Red uniforms (Wesley and Paris). These were decidedly not anywhere near Command positions, and in fact the Helm fits squarely in the domain of Starship Operations (as it is the most literal operation of the ship).

    How do you define Command anyway? Worf wears Red as the Strategic Operations Officer of DS9, but he largely fills the same role he had as Chief Tactical Officer on the Enterprise, minus the Security command. He had fewer actual Command duties there than he did on TNG, yet wore Yellow in TNG and Red in DS9.

    So who knows.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    clarifying something about Picard. His archeologist thing? a hobby. He was actually a pilot.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    tekehd wrote: »
    Spock called and said he wants to have a word with you.
    Speaking of Spock, as I recall he was the only #1 that didn't wear command colors.

    Unless mirror T'Pol counts.
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited May 2014
    thratch1 wrote: »
    This isn't necessarily how it went in the show, though.

    While Command always wore Red, Red was not exclusively the color of Command.

    In both TNG and VOY, Ensign-ranked Helmsmen wore Red uniforms (Wesley and Paris). These were decidedly not anywhere near Command positions, and in fact the Helm fits squarely in the domain of Starship Operations (as it is the most literal operation of the ship).

    How do you define Command anyway? Worf wears Red as the Strategic Operations Officer of DS9, but he largely fills the same role he had as Chief Tactical Officer on the Enterprise, minus the Security command. He had fewer actual Command duties there than he did on TNG, yet wore Yellow in TNG and Red in DS9.

    So who knows.

    "Command" is a bit of a misnomer, it's not so much that people in red are senior in authority, but they operate within the ship's command and administrative department. That being said, Helm in red makes sense, since Helm answers only to command, and no other department. Navigation on the other hand answers to both command and navigation, security answers to both operations and command, engineering answers to operations and command, etc. Ships administration falls under the pervue of Command, not operations. Much like modern vessels the XO (First Officer) is head of the ships administative department, and as such people fulfilling administrative roles (like yeomen) wear the command color, and not operations color.
Sign In or Register to comment.