The price of things you can buy for 'free' (that is using currency such a dil, energy and lobi) in this game is orientated so that you're encouraged to buy zen instead. That will never change.
The skyrocketing price of Keys has caused less boxes to get opened and which has resulted in a ripple effect throughout the entire economy.
Um, no. The prices are rising because MORE people are opening boxes. Prices are rising because you can't undercut fast enough to affect the market price of keys - in other words, people are buying keys faster than they can be sold.
This suggests that the point where demand and supply meet for keys currently is north of 2.5M ec. This is not unfair. Yes, there is greed, but it is on both sides - and from the looks of things, it's more on the sides of buyers.
Thing with a completely free market like the Exchange is that if the demand goes down, the prices will go down. And vice versa. Speculators cannot keep raising the prices by themselves - there's no profit in buying high, and the demand would quickly fall. We see this in the real world, and the real world is far from a free market.
Ive been buying keys with dilithium (zen exchange) since i started playing. I never wasted EC to buy keys. I dont see the point. Not when with just 2 alts you can already buy a key with 16000 dilithium. Actually that was before the inflation lol, now you will need 3 alts to fill the 125 zen that a buy cost. But still, it is the fastest and more cheapest way.
And the only way to reduce the inflation on the exchange is to NOT buy for those abusive prices.
Ive been buying keys with dilithium (zen exchange) since i started playing. I never wasted EC to buy keys. I dont see the point. Not when with just 2 alts you can already buy a key with 16000 dilithium. Actually that was before the inflation lol, now you will need 3 alts to fill the 125 zen that a buy cost. But still, it is the fastest and more cheapest way.
And the only way to reduce the inflation on the exchange is to NOT buy for those abusive prices.
In what way is 2.4-2.7 million EC abusive pricing.
You just stated WHY it is perfectly legit pricing.
Your 3 alts playing enough to refine 8k each per day will easily make the EC to buy a key in vender junk alone.
So earn 8k on 3 toons... and get 2 keys pretty much. One for the D... and one from the EC earned playing those missions. Assuming you of course don't get some nice mk xii weapon drop from an infected run or something and make enough for 2 keys.
RIght now buying a key with Zen direct or from someone who spent the zen is about = game time.
On that fact... I would say the keys are priced pretty much where they should be.
And the only way to reduce the inflation on the exchange is to NOT buy for those abusive prices.
That's only half-right, and it's still the most sensible thing you've said all month - but the basic gist is true:
If you want the prices to go down, reduce demand.
Don't buy them, convince your buddies not to buy them, and the hundreds or thousands of other people trying to get a Nicor not to buy them, and the prices will drop like a rock.
Actually, another way is to increase supply, so if you want to take it upon yourself to buy hundreds (more like thousands) of keys and constantly undercut yourself, somehow faster than people can buy them, go ahead. That will decrease the price too.
In what way is 2.4-2.7 million EC abusive pricing.
In the way, it cost me more effort to gather 2,7 million ec than using 1 minute to refine 16000 dilitium and trade it for zen. With more than 5-6 alts, you only need 2 or 3 of em to buy a key. And less than 1 year ago, keys cost about 1,2 million EC...
You need to think that not everybody can play for 20 hours every day with 30 alts. People with 5-6 alts and not too much time to play cant grind EC to buy keys. That is a really huge waste of time.
Plain and simple.
And BTW, buying anything for EC is as well play time, if you know.
In the way, it cost me more effort to gather 2,7 million ec than using 1 minute to refine 16000 dilitium and trade it for zen. With more than 5-6 alts, you only need 2 or 3 of em to buy a key. And less than 1 year ago, keys cost about 1,2 million EC...
You need to think that not everybody can play for 20 hours every day with 30 alts. People with 5-6 alts and not too much time to play cant grind EC to buy keys. That is a really huge waste of time.
Plain and simple.
And BTW, buying anything for EC is as well play time, if you know.
1) 16,000 Dilihitum doesn't earn itself. You had to invest time to earn the unrefined stuff. It didn't take you one min to log into 3 toons and do 8k worth of stuff on them. You most likely did PvE missions that rewarded it and should have been vendering drops and earning EC. If I want to earn EC it takes around the same amount of time to earn 2.5mil as it does 24 thousand D.
2) Yes 1 year ago they where half the price... and 1 year ago a loaf of bread cost me 50 cents less then it did this morning... its called inflation even fake economies have that.
3) The real reason the key is now worth 2x as much as it was 1 year ago. There has been 3 more lock boxes since then. In those boxes there have been ... New Traits (didn't exist a year ago)... New Kits...New Doffs... New Ships... Lockbox weapon types that are in demand. Of course a key sells for 2.5 million when you can open say an elachi box and a looser box gives you a weapon pack worth almost as much as the key.
The lockboxes now turn out more high value items, so there pricing has been set accordingly. As those items have high value because they have actual high demand.
You should grind dil, not ec. You're meant to make EC by selling the things you get for dil, or buying and selling things to obtain profit.
.
.
.
To get things, you have to increase the percentage of the EC in the game that you have. Adding more EC to the game doesn't really serve this end, only obtaining EC that is already in the game.
Do your part to stop inflation- stop grinding EC.
I do my part.
I got a really nice very rare weapon drop. It was disruptors of some sort with [crtd]x3. Highest price on the Exchange was 200 million EC and the lowest price was 50 million EC.
I undercut the lowest price by offering it for 33.333 million ECs; a 33% discount. It got sold within 3 days.
I made a good profit without too much price gouging. Just a simply transfer of assets.
Now I just need to grind another 170 mil EC for a Galor.
People have a hard time learning how to navigate the river.
Its just like the real world. If it wasn't for the less motivated, educated and intelligent people who would work the counter at the fast food joints and take out the trash in my office building?
People in this game grind and grind and grind until their eyes bleed. They then either buy my inflated lock box ship that I am flipping for 10 Million, the equivalent of a THIRTY or so fed farms or buy keys until they pluck a ship and then without proper market knowledge post the shiny for 3-10 Million LESS and a shark like me buys it up and extracts value.
These are also the same working class heroes as in real life cry for social justice and try to shame the wealthy for doing what the working class heroes are either too lazy or unable to do, enrich themselves. If everyone in STO knew the secret to making massive wealth, then nobody would be a STO billionaire.
Bendalek, out of curiosity, would you answer a few questions?
Let's say for the sake of argument that I am a profiteer who has earned many hundreds of millions of ec in profit from my activities, and that those activities are whatever ones you think are the worst kind.
You stated that no one "deserved" or "needed" that much money. So, what should be done with it?
Should it be distributed as alms to the poor against my will? Just deleted?
Do the poor deserve it more than I do? Do they deserve it because I worked for it and they didn't?
Does my earning it hurt my cause at keeping it?
---
Many allusions and references are made to "fairness," and I would say that only one kind of transaction is truly fair, a transaction in which both parties are volunteers, and where both sides come to an agreement on some price.
Any other transaction must be unfair, because one side or the other must disagree with the price or be unwilling to make the trade.
All such transactions being fair, I would say that any distribution of property that arises from these transactions is also fair.
How could it be that after some number of fair exchanges, exchanges become unfair without in any way changing their character? What number of fair exchanges do you suppose it takes before fair turns, for reasons passing all human understanding, mysteriously to unfair?
---
Do you belive that people in the game have a right to obtain certain things for a set, defined amount of work?
For example, should any player who spends, say, 50 hours playing, be entitled to a certain ship?
Isn't this system already in place? Aren't there already fleet ships and things that one can earn on a strictly gated time-served system?
Isn't it better for any system, or any game, if there is diversity? Isn't it better when there are more options and choices, more alternatives, more things to do and paths to take?
Isn't fit wrong to force everyone to do the same thing? Isn't it bad design to force each player to be just like every other player? Doesn't it take the joy and fun out?
Basically what keys seller's are doing, by forcing people if they want keys with EC's, to pay hyper inflated prices.
Shouldn't people with different interests and priorities be allowed, even encouraged to do different things, to develop themselves in their own ways? Isn't that the fundamental premise of society in Star Trek, that each person should develop himself to his own full potential?
What good, aside from gratifying the laziness of people unwilling to work, would it do to tie the hands of people who play the game, to force them, like prison laborers, to abandon what they enjoy and toil instead at the behest of another?
So key buyer's can best be described as lazy as well, seeing how they prefer gaining EC's with no effort to grind up EC's themselves, all while again enforcing OP keys into the market.
I am a strong believer in diversity. I believe people with different priorities should be able to pursue different interests and goals. I think it is heinously awful when everyone is forced, ether overtly or through more insidious means, to all be alike.
If you don't like doing what you do, or the outcomes you've obtained, I strongly believe in being able to tell you to do something else, and knowing that the options are always there if you'd prefer to avail yourselves of them.
Also, I belive in the best things being hard to get. It's the only way anyone can ever appreciate them.
Sorry keys are not hard to get, they are as simple as pending zen.
I can tell you in all candor that if I here to buy, say, a dozen Voth Bastions during the time they were cheap and plentiful, and then wait a long while to sell them, waiting for the price to go up, and for them to become much rarer and harder to get, that the person who eventually ended up saving his money, working hard, and paying me my asking price for one would enjoy it more than I had.
To me, such a ship is cheap and common, just a line of pictures in the grid of the bank, but to him, who has worked hard for it, has obtained something rare, has sanctified its value by paying dearly for it, it is a quite a thing to have. Something to cherish and enjoy.
I have done him a service by reserving these ships for him to buy later on, when fewer are to be found. And I gave done a service to anyone who wins one in a box, for I have helped build value for his prize as well.
Each of us benefits in turn. He who wants the rare ship pays dearly for it, and esteems it a thing of great value, and himself having accomplished a great thing by getting it. He who gambles and wins, has benefitted because his prize is worth all the more. And I have obtained profit, I have more than I did before, of the thing I care the most about, money.
This is a circle of fair exchanges. Each person agreeing to the terms, each person a willing participant, each person benefitting in his own way.
This is the right order of things.
The last part is not really doing anyone a service, outside of ripping them off thru market manipulation strategies.
A recent post got me thinking. The OP was complaining that people who posted keys for sale on the exchange were undercutting the market by posting lower than the current price.
Any time i sell keys, I usually put them up for 1.5 mil.... mainly because I feel like some of the prices tend to be a bit rediculous, for one key just 2-3 days ago it was selling for 5.4 mil I mean come on... its not even worth that much and ive seen much higher, it seems to be a trend atm.
I refuse to scam the player base tbh no matter the state of the games economy + its extremely difficult for new comers to buy off the exchange (EC exchange) at those prices.
Any time i sell keys, I usually put them up for 1.5 mil.... mainly because I feel like some of the prices tend to be a bit rediculous, for one key just 2-3 days ago it was selling for 5.4 mil I mean come on... its not even worth that much and ive seen much higher, it seems to be a trend atm.
I refuse to scam the player base tbh no matter the state of the games economy + its extremely difficult for new comers to buy off the exchange (EC exchange) at those prices.
If I had the opportunity, it would be nice to flood the market with cheap keys consistently, so the market manipulator's would drain themselves dry of EC's quickly, trying to buy them up for reselling.
If I had the opportunity, it would be nice to flood the market with cheap keys consistently, so the market manipulator's would drain themselves dry of EC's quickly, trying to buy them up for reselling.
But they have the edge as it stands, for now!
Although it would be annoying having to log into the mule accounts for more EC... I don't think you would have to much success.
Seriously though... if people think the price is to high simply don't buy. The fact that the price can drift up on a saturday afternoon is because obviously there are people willing to spend the EC. If not the price would drift down as one ferengi undercut the last.
Although it would be annoying having to log into the mule accounts for more EC... I don't think you would have to much success.
Seriously though... if people think the price is to high simply don't buy. The fact that the price can drift up on a saturday afternoon is because obviously there are people willing to spend the EC. If not the price would drift down as one ferengi undercut the last.
The only problem, is almost nobody needs to undercut each other, because they know people who want them have to spend tons of EC's to get them, or simply wait till someone does buy them.
The only other solution is with zen, but most if not half of the key buyer's do not want to spend zen on them, so are instead forced to pay the OI price, only so key seller's can benefit twice as much.
The only problem, is almost nobody needs to undercut each other, because they know people who want them have to spend tons of EC's to get them, or simply wait till someone does buy them.
The only other solution is with zen, but most if not half of the key buyer's do not want to spend zen on them, so are instead forced to pay the OI price, only so key seller's can benefit twice as much.
I honestly haven't sold all that many keys... however the handful of times I did... I made my keys 1000 ec lower then the lowest and it sold in minutes.
If people where marking keys up and waiting for weeks for them to sell I would say ya that is an issue.
Thing is there is obviously demand. There is no way resellers are all over 1000 ec profit on 2+ million EC investments.
I honestly haven't sold all that many keys... however the handful of times I did... I made my keys 1000 ec lower then the lowest and it sold in minutes.
If people where marking keys up and waiting for weeks for them to sell I would say ya that is an issue.
Thing is there is obviously demand. There is no way resellers are all over 1000 ec profit on 2+ million EC investments.
I am sure they would if they get 10, or more at 1k cheaper.
That spells 10k in EC's gain, little yes I know, but penny pincher's go for it.
If people want keys, they should get them with dil/zen.
I have almost no interest at all in the key market.
My best advice for anyone though is not to grind EC.
People grinding EC is why we have inflation. Grind dil, use that to get keys and things.
I myself do not even grind EC's, yet I still wind up with millions of EC's.
EC's are infinite currency, they never cease, and are only controlled by a regulating system in place, to try and prevent to many from being developed by loot, or by running the Tour.
Otherwise there is no potential limit, other than a EC cap.
Only people deflate the EC, not EC's themselves, as does only people cause inflation, not EC's themselves.
Comments
Um, no. The prices are rising because MORE people are opening boxes. Prices are rising because you can't undercut fast enough to affect the market price of keys - in other words, people are buying keys faster than they can be sold.
This suggests that the point where demand and supply meet for keys currently is north of 2.5M ec. This is not unfair. Yes, there is greed, but it is on both sides - and from the looks of things, it's more on the sides of buyers.
Thing with a completely free market like the Exchange is that if the demand goes down, the prices will go down. And vice versa. Speculators cannot keep raising the prices by themselves - there's no profit in buying high, and the demand would quickly fall. We see this in the real world, and the real world is far from a free market.
Nice joke!! (that was a joke, right?):P
Ive been buying keys with dilithium (zen exchange) since i started playing. I never wasted EC to buy keys. I dont see the point. Not when with just 2 alts you can already buy a key with 16000 dilithium. Actually that was before the inflation lol, now you will need 3 alts to fill the 125 zen that a buy cost. But still, it is the fastest and more cheapest way.
And the only way to reduce the inflation on the exchange is to NOT buy for those abusive prices.
In what way is 2.4-2.7 million EC abusive pricing.
You just stated WHY it is perfectly legit pricing.
Your 3 alts playing enough to refine 8k each per day will easily make the EC to buy a key in vender junk alone.
So earn 8k on 3 toons... and get 2 keys pretty much. One for the D... and one from the EC earned playing those missions. Assuming you of course don't get some nice mk xii weapon drop from an infected run or something and make enough for 2 keys.
RIght now buying a key with Zen direct or from someone who spent the zen is about = game time.
On that fact... I would say the keys are priced pretty much where they should be.
That's only half-right, and it's still the most sensible thing you've said all month - but the basic gist is true:
If you want the prices to go down, reduce demand.
Don't buy them, convince your buddies not to buy them, and the hundreds or thousands of other people trying to get a Nicor not to buy them, and the prices will drop like a rock.
Actually, another way is to increase supply, so if you want to take it upon yourself to buy hundreds (more like thousands) of keys and constantly undercut yourself, somehow faster than people can buy them, go ahead. That will decrease the price too.
In the way, it cost me more effort to gather 2,7 million ec than using 1 minute to refine 16000 dilitium and trade it for zen. With more than 5-6 alts, you only need 2 or 3 of em to buy a key. And less than 1 year ago, keys cost about 1,2 million EC...
You need to think that not everybody can play for 20 hours every day with 30 alts. People with 5-6 alts and not too much time to play cant grind EC to buy keys. That is a really huge waste of time.
Plain and simple.
And BTW, buying anything for EC is as well play time, if you know.
1) 16,000 Dilihitum doesn't earn itself. You had to invest time to earn the unrefined stuff. It didn't take you one min to log into 3 toons and do 8k worth of stuff on them. You most likely did PvE missions that rewarded it and should have been vendering drops and earning EC. If I want to earn EC it takes around the same amount of time to earn 2.5mil as it does 24 thousand D.
2) Yes 1 year ago they where half the price... and 1 year ago a loaf of bread cost me 50 cents less then it did this morning... its called inflation even fake economies have that.
3) The real reason the key is now worth 2x as much as it was 1 year ago. There has been 3 more lock boxes since then. In those boxes there have been ... New Traits (didn't exist a year ago)... New Kits...New Doffs... New Ships... Lockbox weapon types that are in demand. Of course a key sells for 2.5 million when you can open say an elachi box and a looser box gives you a weapon pack worth almost as much as the key.
The lockboxes now turn out more high value items, so there pricing has been set accordingly. As those items have high value because they have actual high demand.
I do my part.
I got a really nice very rare weapon drop. It was disruptors of some sort with [crtd]x3. Highest price on the Exchange was 200 million EC and the lowest price was 50 million EC.
I undercut the lowest price by offering it for 33.333 million ECs; a 33% discount. It got sold within 3 days.
I made a good profit without too much price gouging. Just a simply transfer of assets.
Now I just need to grind another 170 mil EC for a Galor.
People have a hard time learning how to navigate the river.
Its just like the real world. If it wasn't for the less motivated, educated and intelligent people who would work the counter at the fast food joints and take out the trash in my office building?
People in this game grind and grind and grind until their eyes bleed. They then either buy my inflated lock box ship that I am flipping for 10 Million, the equivalent of a THIRTY or so fed farms or buy keys until they pluck a ship and then without proper market knowledge post the shiny for 3-10 Million LESS and a shark like me buys it up and extracts value.
These are also the same working class heroes as in real life cry for social justice and try to shame the wealthy for doing what the working class heroes are either too lazy or unable to do, enrich themselves. If everyone in STO knew the secret to making massive wealth, then nobody would be a STO billionaire.
Remember this from one of my favorite movies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiRGRvE_Wqg
And good thinking.
The last part is not really doing anyone a service, outside of ripping them off thru market manipulation strategies.
You stink of greed with those words, badly.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
What started as a simple post about the relationship between ec and dilithium as the cost of a key sparked one heck of a debate.
That wasn't my intention, but I have read the reply's with a lot of interest.
Admiral Thrax
Any time i sell keys, I usually put them up for 1.5 mil.... mainly because I feel like some of the prices tend to be a bit rediculous, for one key just 2-3 days ago it was selling for 5.4 mil I mean come on... its not even worth that much and ive seen much higher, it seems to be a trend atm.
I refuse to scam the player base tbh no matter the state of the games economy + its extremely difficult for new comers to buy off the exchange (EC exchange) at those prices.
If I had the opportunity, it would be nice to flood the market with cheap keys consistently, so the market manipulator's would drain themselves dry of EC's quickly, trying to buy them up for reselling.
But they have the edge as it stands, for now!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Although it would be annoying having to log into the mule accounts for more EC... I don't think you would have to much success.
Seriously though... if people think the price is to high simply don't buy. The fact that the price can drift up on a saturday afternoon is because obviously there are people willing to spend the EC. If not the price would drift down as one ferengi undercut the last.
The only problem, is almost nobody needs to undercut each other, because they know people who want them have to spend tons of EC's to get them, or simply wait till someone does buy them.
The only other solution is with zen, but most if not half of the key buyer's do not want to spend zen on them, so are instead forced to pay the OI price, only so key seller's can benefit twice as much.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I honestly haven't sold all that many keys... however the handful of times I did... I made my keys 1000 ec lower then the lowest and it sold in minutes.
If people where marking keys up and waiting for weeks for them to sell I would say ya that is an issue.
Thing is there is obviously demand. There is no way resellers are all over 1000 ec profit on 2+ million EC investments.
I am sure they would if they get 10, or more at 1k cheaper.
That spells 10k in EC's gain, little yes I know, but penny pincher's go for it.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Yes, and people like yourself influence them to sell at those prices, all while keeping those who want keys to still pay OI prices.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I myself do not even grind EC's, yet I still wind up with millions of EC's.
EC's are infinite currency, they never cease, and are only controlled by a regulating system in place, to try and prevent to many from being developed by loot, or by running the Tour.
Otherwise there is no potential limit, other than a EC cap.
Only people deflate the EC, not EC's themselves, as does only people cause inflation, not EC's themselves.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!