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Strenght and/or Damage boost. Which is which?
chrisbrown12009
Member Posts: 790 Arc User
I have been looking for a list of which is which. I would like to compile a list of the different ones so that i and others know which is which.
Ones i know that apply AFTER everything:
the AP two piece. +10% to AP.
the New undine two piece +7.5% to dis. and phas.
the Arkif two piece +7.5 to Plas.
where does the fleet cores fit?
other Plasma boosting gear?
Plasma rep gear?
Ones i know that apply AFTER everything:
the AP two piece. +10% to AP.
the New undine two piece +7.5% to dis. and phas.
the Arkif two piece +7.5 to Plas.
where does the fleet cores fit?
other Plasma boosting gear?
Plasma rep gear?
Post edited by chrisbrown12009 on
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While I don't think anyone has a complete list, the longest list I've seen is virusdancer's.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15821071&postcount=4
Also, what do you mean by "everything"? The formula for calculating damage looks like this:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16773851&postcount=2
VIRUS!!!!!
HELP!!!!!
Instead of "VIRUS!!!!! HELP!!!!!" you can consider taking the time to read other posts in that thread. Hint: It's in the post directly after his.:rolleyes:
Lol...me?
You've got frtoaster there...guy can drop out info/math that would make me look like I was sitting over in the corner drooling while picking my nose.
Hell, that first thread's full of folks that make me look like a sponge stuck on the beach as the tide rolled out...lol.
edit: Lol, besides - no matter how many times it's answered, for the life of me - I can never remember where [AMP] fits in. I can read the answer...and not even five minutes later, I'll have forgotten. It's kind of twisted. Perhaps one day I'll pick up [AMP] and might remember...but I'm guessing I'll still probably have to keep asking folks because I'll keep forgetting.
Ok, i have held back my comments but you must have caught me on an of daay so i am just going to flat out ask you.
Why is it even time you post to me you come off sounding rude, sarcastic, and an overall jerk?
what that post DOES not tell me, nor have you OR ANYONE answered is where on those list Fleet core bonuses to DMG sit.... Instead of being helpful and trying to answer, even in part one of my questions, AS USUAL, you post a snide remark designed to make someone look dumb by referring them to link, post, or other site which DOESNT EVEN ANSWER THE QUESTION, and in turn shows the rest of us that you're being obnoxious.
Try again, this time with manners, Here ill even ask the question again:
I hope that clears things up and points out the requested information.
Critical Severity is actually added to the Bonus boosts. It's a Damage Bonus that only applies to attacks which critically hit.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Amp is a Strength boost.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Weapon Power Boost is technically actually just part of the base magnitude of the power. But multiplication being commutative makes it work the same way in your formula as it does in ours.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
So Critical Severity isn't a boost to the bonus damage, but rather a bonus boost in of itself? Hrmm, for example...
Some VR Beam Array Mk XII
Base: 100
Weapon Power
125 Weapon Power: *2.5 = 250
Strength Boosts
VR: +18.75 = 268.75
MK XII: +300 (roughly) = 568.75
9 Weapons: +123.75 = 692.5
9 Energy: +123.75 = 816.25
4x ATVx: +319 = 1135.25
Bonus Boosts
EPtW1: +113.525 = 1248.775
APO3: +281.542 = 1530.317
CrtD (100%): +1135.25 = 2665.567
As opposed to the CrtD being calculated based on the figure after Bonus Boosts have been done? ie, the +100% would have added 1530.317 instead of 1135.25.
Does that apply to Weapon Abilities as well? Are those bonus boosts instead of an individual step in the process?
Don't care how many people or how many times people answer that...I won't remember! So there! :P
edit: Though, I might just bookmark that post.
Probably - can you give me a specific example of what you mean by Weapon Ability?
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Hrmm, in looking at it - I guess it would just fall into the base magnitude like weapon power. Was talking about something like BO...but yeah, that would just be base magnitude.
Base Magnitude * Strength * Bonus
Base 100
*2.5 (Weapon Power) = 250
*6 (fake BO amount) = 1500
*3.541 (VR Mk XII, 9 Weapons, 9 Energy, 4x ATVx) = 5311.5
*2.448 (EPtW1, APO3, 2pc Obelisk. 100% CrtD) = 13002.552
Would be along the lines of what we would be looking at then? Trying to simplify it for future and consistent explanations...and all that jazz.
edit: And thanks, Hawk...lil' surprised at CrtD being a bonus rather than a separate boost...but aye, definitely thanks for the info.
In the absence of debuffs, yep, that's how it works (where Strength = 1+Sum(Strengths) and Bonus = 1+Sum(Bonuses))
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Some being strength buffs and some being bonus buffs is just really odd. Retuning the bonuses and dealing with changing gear people already have is a hassle, but so are inconsistencies and people asking the same questions over and over.
Thanks again...lol, though I've got to ask since you mentioned that. You know, it's rarely something that comes up - I personally can't remember it coming up (but as many know, my memories not the best by a long shot)...but yeah, debuffs.
That's going to be things like Aceton Beam with it's varying degrees of debuffing Energy Weapon damage or a DOFF'd Sensor Scan reducing damage capability.
So would the debuffs fall into the base magnitude calculation or would they be dropped into either the strength or bonus calculation? Are we looking at a 1-debuff modifier or a -debuff modifier for either strength or bonus?
For example, the DOFF'd Sensor Scan on one of my guys has 42.9 listed as the value the target's damage gets degraded. So is the damage multiplied by 0.571? Is .429 subtracted from either the Strength or Bonuses calculations?
And er...I nominate frtoaster to type this all up. I'm going to go drool in the corner while watching the wallpaper peel...lol.
You mean the...
2pc Ancient Obelisk Technology: +10% Bonus Antiproton
2pc Enhanced Projectile Efficiency (T'varo): +10% Bonus Projectile
2pc Counter-Command Ordnance: +7.5% Bonus Phaser/Disruptor
2pc Apex Predator: +7.6% Strength Tetryon
2pc Breen Absolute Zero: +32.5 Strength Transphasic
2pc Jem'Hadar Mk XI: +8.1% Strength Polaron
2pc Jem'Hadar Mk XII: +13.1% Strength Polaron (I believe that's the amount, but I don't have the Mk XII)
2pc Klingon Honor Guard: +25% Strength Torpedo (listed as Bonus)
2pc Nukara Appropriated Munitions: +7.6% Strength Tetryon
2pc Protonic Arsenal: +22.9% Photon
2pc Romulan Singularity Harness: +7.6% Strength Plasma
2pc Silent Enemy: +7.6% Strength Disruptor
2pc Temporal Warfare: +27.4% Strength Chroniton
Then there's that +2.5% All Weapon Damage boost on the 2pc Nukara Strikeforce Technologies...which reads like a bonus boost, but I don't have it to check.
Solanae Energy Lattice " Improves Proton Damage by 17.5%"
Improves = Strength? or Bonus? wouldn't it be easier if we didn't have to ask?
And there are the oddball ones like Enhanced Tactical Systems "+12 Starship Projectile Weapon Damage" a skill bonus, 'cause two different ways for 2-piece set bonuses to work wasn't enough we needed a third!
Virusdancer and I have discussed the commutativity of multiplication before. That formula grew out of various discussions in this forum about how damage is calculated. We've only recently learned of the strength vs. bonus distinction from a post by borticuscryptic. More precisely, we knew about the distinction, but didn't know what Cryptic called it. Since we don't know Cryptic's internal terminology, we've had to come up with some of our own; there have been debates about that too.
By "weapon ability", we mean boff abilities like CRF, CSV, BO, BFaW, THY, and torp spread.
If I understand you correctly, then the following formula would compute the damage done to an unshielded target by an energy weapon:
Base
* 0.02 * WeaponPower
* (1 + WeaponAbility)
* (1 + sum(Strengths))
* (1 + sum(Bonuses))
* (1 - HullResist)
In the above formula, critical severity is included in Bonuses, and the [AMP] warp core modifier is included in Strengths. I'm not sure where damage debuffs would appear in the above formula.
You seem to remember many details that I always have to look up. That's why I linked to your posts above.
This surprises me too. I know some people have done extensive crit testing. I'm surprised no one noticed during testing.
I might type it up if I'm convinced we have the complete formula. From adjudicatorhawk's comments, it seems we are missing a few things. In particular, how do damage debuffs (as opposed to damage resistance debuffs) work? Another thing I seldom see mentioned in these forums is damage variance. Remember this patch note:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=516551
This suggests that each weapon type has a built-in variance. I think what we've been discussing so far is the mean of the distribution. We don't know the variance. Moreover, we don't know what the probability distribution looks like. Is it uniform? Gaussian? something else?
Personally, I think I might have mentioned it 2-3 times if that. Most of the times the formula stuff gets tossed around is in helping folks figure out how they got the numbers they see in the tooltips/infoboxes - then some extrapolation for what folks might see in parses.
Which does bring up two other items that may have a related formula with different constants for the modifiers: falloff and radius.
The falloff aspect comes up often in discussions regarding Beams vs. Cannons.
Radius probably comes up less than variance, but with the Radius modifier being added to certain mines (and potentially other mines down the road) - that's going to be an aspect. I mean, it already is with the splash damage from mines and heavy torpedoes - but it might be something more folks become interested in with the Radius mod. (Heh, I've only noticed the difference personally because of the number of times I get caught in the splash of heavy torps - lol.)
But yeah, it was pretty awesome for Hawk to share some info there. It's always pretty nifty when Hawk, Bort, Gorngon, and the others do.
The Nukara Strikeforce boost is a bit of an odd one. I don't have it either, but I came across a few posts the other day which seemed to show that it was a Strength buff... so I had to go back and amend some maths appropriately in that Tetryon thread "just in case"...
As far as I know Critical Hits are treated as a seperate category that applies to your shots just before they impact on an enemy (at which point they'd get affected by enemy resistances). It's nice to finally have confirmation on this... But it does confirm once and for all that [Dmg] is the worst Weapon modifier since it just grants additional base damage and the [Acc] [CritD] and [CritH] modifiers all scale an awful lot better
Sensor Analysis is another odd fish - it gets applied to all damage after other buffs. If I had to guess, I'd assume that the actual damage buff part of it is coded similarly to Space Warfare DOFFs (but it only applies against one single enemy ship instead of a specified enemy faction).
It's much more fun to constantly point it out - even for Hawky... :P
If I understand adjudicatorhawk correctly, he's saying that critical severity doesn't have its own category; it belongs to the same category as APO, EPtW, and some of the 2-piece set bonuses.
Yeah, it's still striking me as odd - but I asked/re-asked and it was answered/re-answered that's the way it was answered...
Definitely leaves me to wonder about some of the crits that I see out there - they lend themselves to CrtD being it's own thing sort of thing. With them being a bonus instead, well - that points to stacked debuffs being much more massive an aspect than the already massive aspect that many folks make them out to be, eh?
Hmmm so APBeta3 is a much better damage buff than APOmega3, based on this?
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
You'd think so, but then you have to factor in that resistances (so buffs and debuffs alike) encounter diminishing returns. If you have several sources of APB (or even APB and Disruptors) on a normal PVE target then you'll start getting softcapped pretty hard.
I'm not entirely certain the way Bosses like the Planet Killer works though - it seems to have high resistances to all types of damage- and APB/Disruptors should reduce that considerably... but they don't seem to. In City Of Heroes there was a mechanism where the more "damage resistance" a character had, the greater they resisted the effects of "damage resistance debuffs". And higher ranked foes had greater debuff resistances in general than lower ranked ones. I wonder if there's a similar sort of thing in this game: the higher rank you are and/or the resistance you have, the less effect APB has on you?
Bah! Silly complicated numberthings! :P
That's the way I read the response too... but it doesn't quite mesh with what I've observed.
Well, if Critical Severity indeed is treated as a Damage "Bonus" (like EPTW and APO/APA and a few of the odder set bonuses) - then stacking those kind of buffs will technically dilute its effectiveness. For example: a Tactical Captain with the Obelisk bonus running EPTW3; would technically get a little less benefit than they'd expect from stacking CritD.
I'm not complaining really. All this is just making my Polarized Disruptor + Undine builds look better and better: draining an enemy's shield power, slowing them down to increase my accuracy overflow, and then stacking resistance debuffs... hmm
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16363731&postcount=45
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16368561&postcount=49
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16633391&postcount=64
rbaker82's only got 3 posts on the forums...all three in that thread...and if it weren't totally creepy, I'd build a little shrine to them for the magic the worked for the resistance/resistance debuff discussion.
My guess for the new actually resistant mobs is simple. More than one form of damage resistance just like some of our new traits work.
So say they start out at I dunno, 50% reduction plus another 60% reduction. So 80% total reduction right?
But let us say only that first 50% can be effected by our fancy disruptor and APBs. So even if we get a stupid amount of -DR on 'em enough to lower that first 50% reduction into a 20% boost to our damage thanks to the second reduction the mob still has a 48% reduction.
Heck it might even explain why Sensor Scan never worked right math wise stacking with the APB, might be a separate category entirely.
I, too, find it odd. Some players have done extensive crit testing. I would think they would have noticed. But maybe, no one has tested crits with attack patterns, EPtW, or set bonuses.
Rbaker82's formula fits the data that virusdancer provided a while ago, but guriphu recently told me that it doesn't work with stacking debuffs. I asked him for his data, but he never replied.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16869361&postcount=11
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16875711&postcount=12
I've summarized rbaker82's posts here:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16865841&postcount=10
My summary contains no data, just formulas and references.
I mean, heck, he returned results that matched the expected numbers - where I was babbling around the forums looking for help because the formula I was working with only matched in certain cases.
There is a little bit of a difference in how Debuffs are implemented.
Resistance buffs can be either a straight stat buff belonging to only one owner (like Skillpoints) or an active power with a passive buff attached that can belong to a seperate owner and target (like Aux2SIF)... but Resistance debuffs tend to always work by having an original owner activate an ability which then applies a seperate passive power (the debuff) to a new owner.
The final strength of stacked debuffs will depend on the point at which Diminishing returns is applied: are multiple debuffs added and THEN DR gets applied to the cumulative total (like what we'd expect with Resistances); or is DR applied seperately to each debuff depending on its magnitude? What about if two players (thus two different "original owners") activate similar debuffs on the same target?
We already know that STO's code can make different magnitudes of DR kick in against different sources of the same type of debuff - for example, power drains.
Consider three Resistance debuff powers:
(A) of -80 res; and (B) and (C) both of -40 res.
Diminishing Returns applies as a Bell Curve based around an "ideal sweet spot" - usually zero.
If Diminishing Returns is calculated based entirely on the target's final resistance values after all buffs/debuffs; or on the SUM of all the debuffs added together, then (A) or (B + C) will cause an identical effect.
If Diminishing Returns is based upon the individual debuffs themselves separately; then (A) or (B + C) will cause DIFFERENT effects - (A) will be hit much harder because it's so far outside the sweet spot on the bell curve; so (B + C) will technically be more powerful.