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STO is making 8472 dumb and dumber
tilarta
Member Posts: 1,799 Arc User
I've been concerned about this for some time now, but with the introduction of Undine Invasion, I'm truly questioning how far Cryptic is willing to go into taking away the natural intelligence of species 8472.
Voyager quite clearly established that Species 8472 are not idiots, they investigate, they learn and study their targets quite extensively before they take action, nothing is done on impulse and they don't react without a defined plan.
8472 Infilitrators are particularly savvy, as they take intensive training into imitating the target species they are impersonating.
Which is why Undine Invasion is so ridiculous, a properly trained 8472 Infilitrator would not make the mistakes these ones do.
For example, Celes asserting she has no interest in children when the real Celes has a 3 year old daughter!
And then we have the war issue.
Species 8472 invested a significant amount of effort in infiltrating the command structure of the Federation and Starfleet so they would have advance warning if Starfleet planned to attack them in open warfare.
So when Alpha Quadrant vessels starting arriving in Fluidic Space and attacking them, they would have contacted their Infilitrators and checked if there was actually a formal declaration of war.
Upon learning that there was not one, they would have started to wonder who was actually attacking them and why.
And given the advanced biotechnology of Species 8472, they would be scanning the portals opening in Fluidic Space and soon realize that an Iconian Portal is not a known technology in use by any Alpha Quadrant power.
Then we have the telepathy issue.
I'm assuming if Species 8472 truly wanted to know the truth, they could secretly scan the minds of anyone they wanted or do it openly to their captives.
And since there are no secrets to a telepath, they'd learn very fast that the invaders are not Alpha Quadrant species.
To me, it looks like Cryptic has reduced the natural intelligence and cunning of Species 8472 just to make them into another bad guy.
Voyager quite clearly established that Species 8472 are not idiots, they investigate, they learn and study their targets quite extensively before they take action, nothing is done on impulse and they don't react without a defined plan.
8472 Infilitrators are particularly savvy, as they take intensive training into imitating the target species they are impersonating.
Which is why Undine Invasion is so ridiculous, a properly trained 8472 Infilitrator would not make the mistakes these ones do.
For example, Celes asserting she has no interest in children when the real Celes has a 3 year old daughter!
And then we have the war issue.
Species 8472 invested a significant amount of effort in infiltrating the command structure of the Federation and Starfleet so they would have advance warning if Starfleet planned to attack them in open warfare.
So when Alpha Quadrant vessels starting arriving in Fluidic Space and attacking them, they would have contacted their Infilitrators and checked if there was actually a formal declaration of war.
Upon learning that there was not one, they would have started to wonder who was actually attacking them and why.
And given the advanced biotechnology of Species 8472, they would be scanning the portals opening in Fluidic Space and soon realize that an Iconian Portal is not a known technology in use by any Alpha Quadrant power.
Then we have the telepathy issue.
I'm assuming if Species 8472 truly wanted to know the truth, they could secretly scan the minds of anyone they wanted or do it openly to their captives.
And since there are no secrets to a telepath, they'd learn very fast that the invaders are not Alpha Quadrant species.
To me, it looks like Cryptic has reduced the natural intelligence and cunning of Species 8472 just to make them into another bad guy.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Post edited by tilarta on
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They should give us back the Undine scany thing from Terradome. Let us scan for them with the coin flip emote.
They are really dumb in the queued mission, but then, I regularly see players failing at discovering them. So, I guess some player are even dumber.
Not everyone has the intelligence of Sherlock Holmes or Bruce Wayne. And to be perfectly honest there are people who can barely turn on the computer by themselves.
By trying to get a quantity of players in the game rather than quality of players, these deductive reasoning missions are going to be watered down.
Not because the Undine are idiots, but because the players are and can't figure things out without it being completely spelled out for them who the infiltrators are. And even then I regularly see people failing to figure out who the correct infiltrators are.
Personally, I think the Elite version should be far more difficult to figure out in regards to the infiltrators, with various clues being more ambiguous and less subtle to denote their intelligence and skill at blending in with us.
They were planning on wiping out all life in the galaxy because the Borg invaded their realm.
They are convinced that the mere existence of our universe is a biological threat to them.
They are Xenophobic to the extreme, and mass incursions from our universe into fluidic space isn't exactly going to improve their disposition.
The same Voyager that gave us Fairhaven, the borg "kids" and Icheb, Paris and Janeway super evolving into reptiles that then propogated ...
Yeah, I dunno.
Whatever.
Even the Undine must know the prime universe is the only thing standing between the Iconians and them. Once we are gone, they'll get to them and destroy them.
And for now, they are fighting a war on 3 fronts. No need to be a great general to know it's not the best way to wage war.
And even if they are so dumb they think they can handle them AND us (and the Borgs), it's not their way to act as pawn for a weak and inferior race.
As for Voyager, they have shown the Undines are not so limited. They made peace with Janeway, and promised to talk to the other member of their kind. In fact, without the false incursion in their space, they wouldn't have attacked us again.
unfortunately, this is absolutely true. Look at the forum complaints we got in the past when an FE required any sort of reasoning skills, like the puzzles or the math equations, heck, people couldn't even figure out how to fly their ships through the loops in the mission where you had to slingshot around a star.
I can solve the problem for you here. They are on Bajor... That entire place lowers your intelligence. The longer you are in orbit, on DS9, or Q forbid on the surface of the planet the dumber and dumber you become. DS9 clearly establishes this with how Sisko makes less and less intelligent and logical decisions in the war with the Dominion and eventually even forgets that space is vast and his ships all have Warp Drive and therefore cannot be halted by some arbitrarily placed line of ships as if they are a wall.
They never took control of fluidic space, they are the only sentient life native to fluidic space.
Janeway made peace with one group of Species 8472.
The Boothby impersonator said he would talk to his superiors, but that he could not make any kind of guarantees.
In addition Species 8472 are immensly powerful, they can destroy planets with a handfull of ships and were on the verge of wiping out the entire Borg collective in a matter of weeks.
And I honestly question wether or not the Iconians are actually powerful enough to fight them, as right now the Iconians don't even seem powerful enough to take on any power head on for that matter.
Instead they are playing a little game of divide and conquer.
You're just assuming this, as no other species were mentioned in the shows. For all we know, Fluidic Space could contain billions of sentient species, but because we only saw it for five minutes, we only saw the Undine in the tiny region shown.
So very much so. I doubt the Undine actually care about who is actually sending the ships, the fact of the matter is they're xenophobic *******s. They see our galaxy as a constant annoyance and they've finally decided to fumigate the entire thing regardless of who's responsible.
It's like the old adage: "Kill them all and let God sort them out."
Nope, I'm not.
Kes: "Yes. I can hear them. They come from a place where they're alone. Nothing else lives there."
It doesn't make sense for a highly xenophobic faction to only hit one side, and play pawn to another faction. If they were so highly xenophobic, they would at the very least attack both side. And let us fight the Iconians (after all, that's basic strategy, let the others fight your war).
Some people don't even read the clues, they just jump on the suspect.
He is mine, you cant take him ::P:P:P
I guess that meant there is a region of space with thinner walls between the dimensions.
Fluidic Space was established as an entirely different reality.
And overthinking lackluster story consistency is Trekky enough for us. :P
This is what I came up with:
Their initial hostility towards all humanoid life was an error of assumption on their part.
Like Kes explains, species 8472 are all alone in their home, so I'm reasoning that the idea of more then one species inhabiting a region simply did not occur to them, as they had not encountered this situation before now.
From their point of view at this time, the Borg were the only sentient species and they assumed all humanoids were Borg, being unable to tell the difference.
Also, I'm assuming the Borg are not receptive to telepathic communication, so when Species 8472 demanded an explanation for their intrusion into fluidic space, no response was given.
It's only when they came into close proximity to Kes that they realized communication was actually possible.
The construction of the Delta Quadrant Terraspheres was an attempt to learn more about Alpha Quadrant species, specifically the races of the Federation.
So I'm assuming by becoming more informed, they learned to moderate their earlier aggressive disposition.
The fact that Valerie Archer (an 8472) disobeys her commander and gives classified information to Janeway would suggest that they are not above reason and compassion.
Even Boothby (another 8472) was persuaded to accept Janeway's offer of a treaty.
And that's what I find inconsistent, given that 8472 had taken the first steps towards diplomatic negioations, why did they simply not send Valerie and Boothby to meet Janeway in person and find out if Starfleet was truly attacking them?
But I suspect Cryptic are ignoring all that just so they can have another bad guy.
And another thing I wonder about that seems to have slipped past.
In that episode, Janeway gives species 8472 the full specifications of the nanoprobes they developed as weapons.
And in return, they recieved the details of the isomorphic injections that allow species 8472 to take on the physical characteristics of other species.
That was 25 years ago.
So in the intervening time, it's not unreasonable to expect both sides would have studied the information they were given.
Species 8472 should have invented a defense against the weaponized nanoprobes.
And Starfleet would developed a method of detecting isomorphed 8472.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
ummm, just watch starwars a new hope... pretty much gonna look the same. cryptic has this obsessive need to put everyother sci fis stuff into the star trek universe.
As we are still struggling to understand single celled organisms and still fail to properly understand why the house cat wont learn a new trick in spite of new kibble, or indeed STO captains difficulty in reliably controlling tribble population numbers, it seems extremely unlikely Cryptic could design a species of Undine more intelligent than the average player.:rolleyes: