1: that's a big stack of assumptions with numbers attached. Really it is.
All right then, let's see your math.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It's really quite simple, which no one seems to consider in all of the "Star Trek vs Wars/BSG/40K/Whatever the heck else"
Can the opponent stop a transporter beam? No?
Beam high-yield Photon/Quantum/Tricobalt/Gravimetric/Spatial Charges/whatever sort of extremely highly destructive boom-boom into their reactor room/engine room/ordnance room/bridge/etc etc etc.
The Dominion can even beam through standard Federation shielding, what chance does any group that hasn't even put prototypes for teleporters into production?
Heh, I don't have all the numbers, but... the first question to ask when figuring out what variables you need for the calculation is: "How does it work?"
Not all Star Wars beam weapons are analogous to real-world lasers. Some are, but not all. If the Death Star's planet buster is a giant blaster then.... that's a very different calculation than if we try to say it's a conventional laser(which really.... is kinda preposterous IMO). Why? well... real lasers can't be aimed the way it is shown to be aimable. There's more of course.... Real lasers are invisible unless they're pointed at you... :P
The Dominion can even beam through standard Federation shielding, what chance does any group that hasn't even put prototypes for teleporters into production?
An excellent point. Any race that doesn't even understand the basic fundamental principles of a transporter would either need to get lucky, or spend years of research to figure out how to block them.
Heh, I don't have all the numbers, but... the first question to ask when figuring out what variables you need for the calculation is: "How does it work?"
Not all Star Wars beam weapons are analogous to real-world lasers. Some are, but not all. If the Death Star's planet buster is a giant blaster then.... that's a very different calculation than if we try to say it's a conventional laser(which really.... is kinda preposterous IMO). Why? well... real lasers can't be aimed the way it is shown to be aimable. There's more of course.... Real lasers are invisible unless they're pointed at you... :PAn excellent point. Any race that doesn't even understand the basic fundamental principles of a transporter would either need to get lucky, or spend years of research to figure out how to block them.
It's also worth pointing out that Star Wars when compared to Star Trek is technologically stagnant to an obscene degree.
This is taking the EU into account, so if you want to ignore the EU, then my argument is null and void.
The civilizations in Star Wars have been using the same technology for several thousand years. The lightsabers they use in the movies are not that different from the ones in the Old Republic. Hyperdrive has been around for several thousand years, blasters have been around for several thousand years. Warships have been around for several thousand years.
Even in the game TOR you can see that technology used there is almost unchanged from the technology we see in the movies. Speeders, blasters, even the same industrial companies that have survived several thousand years.
But very few new things have been created. This is the biggest possible divide, because it seems that for all intents and purposes, the technology level of Star Wars has plateaued several thousand years before the movies and innovation is practically non-existant.
The IG-88 droids were prototype assassin droids, but assassin droids have been around for far longer -- and they aren't too dissimilar. You have the superweapons that have been pointed out, sure. But those are the exception to the rule. They've never gained widespread acceptance and they're almost always destroyed before they can do any damage, or they're destroyed not long after they perform a one-hit wonder of shock and awe.
Star Trek on the other hand continues to advance technology. Our technology in Star Trek never plateaus. There is always something bigger, better, and more advanced in the very near future.
The Empire might have raw numbers, but they lack the technological edge. They lack the information warfare element that made the Dominion so dangerous. They lack the biomorphic virus that Odo infected the female founder with because they don't have Odo to transmit the virus to begin with (which some would argue was the only way the Federation could win the Dominion War). And if after several thousand years of technological stagnation, something tells me they aren't going to be able to counter the Dominion being able to beam through their shields while they're still up in time to stop them from utterly decimating the Empire.
With or without the help from the vorta setting other factions against the Empire as part of their warfare tactics.
Actually that argument doesn't really require the EU, it's just way worse when you take the EU into account. Another is pieces of tech that require exotic materials. Like, Mandalorian armor, it can only be made with a special ore found on Mandalore's moon. And Lightsabers. they need a special focusing crystal...
Heh, I don't have all the numbers, but... the first question to ask when figuring out what variables you need for the calculation is: "How does it work?"
Not all Star Wars beam weapons are analogous to real-world lasers. Some are, but not all. If the Death Star's planet buster is a giant blaster then.... that's a very different calculation than if we try to say it's a conventional laser(which really.... is kinda preposterous IMO). Why? well... real lasers can't be aimed the way it is shown to be aimable. There's more of course.... Real lasers are invisible unless they're pointed at you... :P
What the hell does the exact mechanism by which the damage is done have to do with whether the damage was done?
Because no matter the mechanism by which the energy is applied, to cause an Earth-size planet to go pop like that requires you to impart a minimum of 1E38 Joules to it. It could've been done with the world's biggest potato gun, and it would still have required you to impart 1E38 Joules. And in support of Alderaan being Earth-size, I point at the epilogue of Revenge of the Sith, featuring a scene on Alderaan's surface and filmed in live-action, with Bail Organa, an ordinary human wandering around as if he was on Earth. Gravity is directly proportional to mass, ergo Alderaan's mass is the same or close to Earth's.
And for the exact procedure for getting that number, link one, link two.
An excellent point. Any race that doesn't even understand the basic fundamental principles of a transporter would either need to get lucky, or spend years of research to figure out how to block them.
Hardly, because as I have pointed out repeatedly, transporters get blocked by every damn thing. The only thing we have observed Dominion transporters defeating was Federation deflector shields.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Really depends on whether or not one is including EU into the mix. Going by just the movies/TV series, I'd say it really could go either way. Barring aside the fact that Stormtroopers are commonly known as horrible shots (despite they were probably ordered not to hit people important to evil plans) and such, I'd think that the two factions would be fairly even.
Mostly because no hard numbers were given in the ~6 hours of screentime the Empire got.
Now, if we're including EU into there, well... Quite frankly, I don't see it as a contest at all. The Empire's main ship of the line, your average Joe Star Destroyer's hypermatter reactor peaks at around 7.73
Again, it doesn't matter how big your fleet is, or how much power your ships produce (This one has bullcrap written all over it, thanks to the fact that Star Wars is rated somewhere in the negative factor of the Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness, because it's Medieval Fantasy, in SPAAAACE, while Star Trek is rated pretty Hard in the Scale.)
You cannot defend against a transporter beam placing a live warhead into your bridge, or perhaps worse, a boarding party of Jem'Hadar warriors.
Star Destroyers do not have any secondary bridges or command interfaces.
All it took was a single A-Wing, the lightest and smallest of the Rebellion fighters, crashing into the Super Star Destroyer's unshielded bridge to scrap her.
Guess what the Dominion like to do? Yes, that's right, they love their Ramming Speed. Yes, that's right, they love utilizing transporters, and seem to be able to transport in whenever and where ever they damn well please.
This is not even a discussion, so really, stop trying.
Again, it doesn't matter how big your fleet is, or how much power your ships produce (This one has bullcrap written all over it, thanks to the fact that Star Wars is rated somewhere in the negative factor of the Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness, because it's Medieval Fantasy, in SPAAAACE, while Star Trek is rated pretty Hard in the Scale.)
That is ****ing bull**** and you bloody well know it. "Hard" science fiction is sci-fi that makes an effort to be factually accurate. Star Trek is no more grounded in reality than Star Wars is. Star Trek is the setting where the event horizon of a black hole can acquire a crack (VOY: "Parallax"), where people's imaginations run amok can nearly destroy a star system (DS9: "If Wishes Were Horses..."), where there are subatomic bacteria (TNG: "A Matter of Honor"), and where planets ejected from their solar systems and floating in deep space have Earthlike environments (ENT: "Rogue Planet").
And that's just my personal favorites. Outside of that we've got telepathy, telekinesis, godlike aliens (protip: there's no functional difference between someone who is a god and someone who isn't but has godlike powers), and all sorts of other TRIBBLE, but because ST gives technobabble explanations which are still scientifically TRIBBLE, and SW doesn't try to technobabble anything because it's not important to the ****ing story, it's somehow harder sci-fi than SW.
You cannot defend against a transporter beam placing a live warhead into your bridge, or perhaps worse, a boarding party of Jem'Hadar warriors.
Transporters get blocked by people sneezing too hard in their vicinity, for Pete's sake.
Star Destroyers do not have any secondary bridges or command interfaces.
Just because they were never mentioned because they were never relevant doesn't mean they don't exist. It's a basic common-sense engineering principle to have secondary controls.
All it took was a single A-Wing, the lightest and smallest of the Rebellion fighters, crashing into the Super Star Destroyer's unshielded bridge to scrap her.
As I pointed out when Iconians brought it up, freak million-to-one accident. Required A) the deflector shields to be brought down first, otherwise it would've gone splat, and the Executor to be pointed at something big enough to cause damage when it went out of control, a big fat unlikelihood in space. Logically, the Empire is more concerned about somebody trying to take over the ship than about the unbelievably-huge-number-to-one odds that they would be pointed at something big enough to damage them when control was lost, so logically restoring control from a secondary area, like a reactor room, would not be easy to do.
This is not even a discussion, so really, stop trying.
No, it's most certainly not a discussion when people keep bringing up arguments that have already been soundly refuted a dozen times over like a broken ****ing record.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You say that transporters are horribly unreliable, even if it's part of the plot (Yet completely ignoring all of the times they were used in fantastical ways) but then you turn around and say that a lone A-Wing crippling a Super Star Destroyer was a freak accident, even though it was also part of the plot?
Man...just...man...
You know you tripped someone's nerve when they start throwing around that much invective.
The Dominion because the Galactic Empire is the single most incompetent Empire to ever exist. Troops were not properly trained, they blew billions of credits on two battle stations with the EXACT same fatal design flaw and it was commanded by the WORST Sith Lords to ever exist. Palpatine and Vader sucked so hard, if they lived during the glorious Sith Empire, they would have been found dead inside Naga Sadow's tomb before the new student transport ships even left orbit.
They are embarrassments to the name Sith. A crybaby and an electroshocking TRIBBLE job.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
Who would win in a war, the Dominion or the Galatic Empire (Star Wars episodes 3-6).
Everything is allowed.
In Straight Space Strength of Arms Empire. Star Trek ship sizes do not compare to Star wars sizes and armor means everything in a fight like this. Even with their shields disabled Star Destroyers take incredible amounts of punishment. The bridge kill that took out the Imperial Star Destroyer in 6 (The small ones are called Victory) happened because they managed to disable the BRIDGE deflector system
If we go to a combination of Ground and Space harder to call. Dominion ships have atmospheric capabilities making the AT-AT and AT-ST perfect targets. Star Destroyers have no way of operating in those conditions and the empire in general does not have the ships like an X-wing or Millennium Falcon style frigate that could go head to head with those ships in an atmosphere. They are capable of orbital bombardment but that just turns a planet to glass. Only works on a Scorched earth setting.
Ground Troop wise they're about equal on the short term with the long term edge going to the jem'Hadar. Throw Changlings into the mix on one side and you have potentially the ultimate in infiltration able to throw entire armies into chaos with no real counter. That can swing battles and ultimately the war.
If we throw bosses into the crossfire it gets even more complicated. Changelings are nearly impossible to kill lightsabers would at best have a limited effect and there's no way to know if Force Lightning would even scratch them. But at the same time can they deal with someone with that kind of telekinetic power? The only recorded race that comes even close to what they have outside of the Q would be Vulcans and that power was lost to the ages. No one's truly prepared for that kind of Telekinetic onslaught. It's not impossible given the actions of Vader and the Emperor in the past that they might be able to rip apart changlings at the molecular level. So too many unknowns to call a clear winner.
On a straight battle of ships Empire.
Space+ground without scorched earth tactics Dominion
Unlimited Warfare... Empire with a few * attached.
I'm leaving it conventional because if we throw in super weapons then the Empire wins hands down.
You say that transporters are horribly unreliable, even if it's part of the plot (Yet completely ignoring all of the times they were used in fantastical ways) but then you turn around and say that a lone A-Wing crippling a Super Star Destroyer was a freak accident, even though it was also part of the plot?
Once is a freak occurrence. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is a pattern. How many times have transporters failed to work because of naturally occurring or artificially generated phenomena of how many different varieties, again?
Default assumption is that when dealing with weird ****, the transporters won't work, the holodeck safeties will fail, and the warp core ejection system will go offline, because that's the pattern of the show.
You know you tripped someone's nerve when they start throwing around that much invective.
That's the way I talk when I think someone's an idiot. If you weren't an idiot you might have noticed before.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You say that transporters are horribly unreliable, even if it's part of the plot (Yet completely ignoring all of the times they were used in fantastical ways) but then you turn around and say that a lone A-Wing crippling a Super Star Destroyer was a freak accident, even though it was also part of the plot?
Man...just...man...
You know you tripped someone's nerve when they start throwing around that much invective.
Thanks for the laugh.
I hate to do this to you but: That wasn't a super.
That was an Imperial star destroyer. Second grade of the three grades of destroyer. (Victory which is the smallest) Imperial which is what's used in Episode 4 (first shot) And Super Revealed in 5 and 6. There was only one super in the battle of Endor and that didnt go down until after the imperial got nailed.
I hate to do this to you but: That wasn't a super.
That was an Imperial star destroyer. Second grade of the three grades of destroyer. (Victory which is the smallest) Imperial which is what's used in Episode 4 (first shot) And Super Revealed in 5 and 6. There was only one super in the battle of Endor and that didnt go down until after the imperial got nailed.
It was an Executor Class Super Star Destroyer also known as a Executor Class Dreadnaught, the A-Wing destroyed the Executor not an Imperial Class.
There are three classes of Destroyer: Imperial I, II, and Tector.
About power levels of Imperial ships (I cannot do maths so no numbers):
-Minimum energy needed to destroy a Earth sized planet = Death Star I's approximate power output
-Size of DS II compared to I
-Size of DS II's power core (scaled using the Falcon and X-Wing)
-Calculate approximate size of the DS I's power core
-Calculate the size and power levels of a Star Destroyers core (the hemispherical lump on the bottom of the ship).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Actually that argument doesn't really require the EU, it's just way worse when you take the EU into account. Another is pieces of tech that require exotic materials. Like, Mandalorian armor, it can only be made with a special ore found on Mandalore's moon. And Lightsabers. they need a special focusing crystal...
Redundant , A vibro Pike ( carried by the Elite Red Guards ) can go toe to toe with a saber, and they are publically availible weapons on the open market in Star wars, they will slice a Ships bulkhead in half
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Heh, I don't have all the numbers, but... the first question to ask when figuring out what variables you need for the calculation is: "How does it work?"
Not all Star Wars beam weapons are analogous to real-world lasers. Some are, but not all. If the Death Star's planet buster is a giant blaster then.... that's a very different calculation than if we try to say it's a conventional laser(which really.... is kinda preposterous IMO). Why? well... real lasers can't be aimed the way it is shown to be aimable. There's more of course.... Real lasers are invisible unless they're pointed at you... :PAn excellent point. Any race that doesn't even understand the basic fundamental principles of a transporter would either need to get lucky, or spend years of research to figure out how to block them.
Actually you are able to see real world lasers. Have you ever shined a high powered green laser off into the distance at night? And the Darth star basically shot a giant green turbolaser.
And as for the firepower and capabilities of a Star destroyer and sour star destroyer, I found these:
One of the problems I have always had with comparing Star Trek tech to Star Wars is the fact that in Star Trek you see very clearly what is possible on screen where as with Star Wars you actually get very little from what you see on screen.
Just from watching the movies with the exception of the Death Star, Star Wars tech doesn't look nearly as impressive as Star Trek. Blowing up a planet in one shot is damn impressive but aside from that Star Wars tech doesn't appear nearly as advanced as Star Trek tech. The Star Wars lore however makes Star Wars tech sound much better as you hear about the insanely vast numbers of ships and the size of the Empire etc, but on screen all I see a few flights of X-Wings destroying a Death Star and teddy bears beating an entire legion of the Emperor's finest troops. To me there is some disconnect between the two which makes it hard to say how powerful they actually are.
With Star Trek I just feel that what you see on screen does a better job with matching with the wider lore, where as with Star Wars the movies seem to paint a different picture to the wider resource material.
In terms of the high of destructive power then the Empire can create Death Stars. I think the most destructive thing you see from the Dominion was their attempt to detonate the Bajoran sun and wipe out the Bajoran system with a trilithium, tekasite, and protomatter bomb.
I play Star Wars TOR, and I can tell you the Dominion would get so destroyed!!! Stealth is useless against a Jedi or Sith, and their lightsabers make those energy weapons and polearms useless in ground fighting! The Dread Masters would make those water people dry up fast too!
I would also like to make a note to the Devs; please give us better dress options like the one my toon uses in TOR. The dresses you have now look like nighties and slips!
Just like in the first two episodes of Season 5 of Doctor Who:
Doctor #11: "Is there anything you'd like to say? I've heard them all."
Amy Pond: "I'm in my nightie."
If we could assemble experts on the Galactic Empire and the Dominion together in one studio and try to empirically measure out the killing effectiveness of the weapons they bring to the match, strategic implications aside, we could at least determine who would be the Deadliest Warrior.
Melee: Force Pike vs. Kar'takin
Short Range: DH-17 Blaster Pistol vs. Jem'Hadar Polaron Beam Pistol
Long Range: E-11 Blaster Rifle vs. Jem'Hadar Full Auto Rifle
Explosives: Thermal Detonator vs. "Houdini" Subspace Anti-personnel Mine
Fighter: TIE Interceptor vs. Jem'Hadar Fighter
Capital Ship: Imperial II-class Star Destroyer vs. Jem'Hadar Dreadnought
If we could assemble experts on the Galactic Empire and the Dominion together in one studio and try to empirically measure out the killing effectiveness of the weapons they bring to the match, strategic implications aside, we could at least determine who would be the Deadliest Warrior.
Melee: Force Pike vs. Kar'takin
Short Range: DH-17 Blaster Pistol vs. Jem'Hadar Polaron Beam Pistol
Long Range: E-11 Blaster Rifle vs. Jem'Hadar Full Auto Rifle
Explosives: Thermal Detonator vs. "Houdini" Subspace Anti-personnel Mine
Fighter: TIE Interceptor vs. Jem'Hadar Fighter
Capital Ship: Imperial II-class Star Destroyer vs. Jem'Hadar Dreadnought
I'm going to say which one would probably win in the other that you mentioned them.
Melee: force pike wins.
Short range: DH-17 pistol.
Long range: E-11 rifile.
Explosives: Thermal detonator.
Fighter: Jem'Hadar fighter.
Capital ship: Star destroyer.
However if the dominion brought a whole fleet of Jem'Hadar fighters against star destroyers then I would have to hand it to the Dominion because the fighters are faster and more agile than the star destroyers and would be harder to hit.
It was an Executor Class Super Star Destroyer also known as a Executor Class Dreadnaught, the A-Wing destroyed the Executor not an Imperial Class.
There are three classes of Destroyer: Imperial I, II, and Tector.
About power levels of Imperial ships (I cannot do maths so no numbers):
-Minimum energy needed to destroy a Earth sized planet = Death Star I's approximate power output
-Size of DS II compared to I
-Size of DS II's power core (scaled using the Falcon and X-Wing)
-Calculate approximate size of the DS I's power core
-Calculate the size and power levels of a Star Destroyers core (the hemispherical lump on the bottom of the ship).
And the really funny thing is, the maximum yield numbers given for turbolasers in the Incredible Cross-Sections books are actually several orders of magnitude less than what you'd get by scaling down from the Death Star.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
any one says dominion lives in a dream land hands down star wars because star wars is fantasy star wars use ships 5 times bigger then most of all star trek ships but giving a select few
Actually you are able to see real world lasers. Have you ever shined a high powered green laser off into the distance at night? And the Darth star basically shot a giant green turbolaser.
And as for the firepower and capabilities of a Star destroyer and sour star destroyer, I found these:
Turbolasers aren't lasers because they don't behave like lasers. A laser would be invisible in hard vacuum, for one (what you're seeing in the quoted example is the laser reflecting off of airborne particles and air molecules).
The EU explanation is that all "blaster" and "laser" weapons are in fact plasma throwers, and the movie-level canon ROTJ novelization indicates when Leia shoots a scout trooper that they work by thermal action, not technobabble.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
any one says dominion lives in a dream land hand say star wars because star wars is fantasy star wars use ships 5 times bigger then most of all star trek ships but giving a select few
Not the "Star Wars is fantasy" argument again. Let me just quote what I said on the last page.
That is ****ing bull**** and you bloody well know it. "Hard" science fiction is sci-fi that makes an effort to be factually accurate. Star Trek is no more grounded in reality than Star Wars is. Star Trek is the setting where the event horizon of a black hole can acquire a crack (VOY: "Parallax"), where people's imaginations run amok can nearly destroy a star system (DS9: "If Wishes Were Horses..."), where there are subatomic bacteria (TNG: "A Matter of Honor"), and where planets ejected from their solar systems and floating in deep space have Earthlike environments (ENT: "Rogue Planet").
And that's just my personal favorites. Outside of that we've got telepathy, telekinesis, godlike aliens (protip: there's no functional difference between someone who is a god and someone who isn't but has godlike powers), and all sorts of other TRIBBLE, but because ST gives technobabble explanations which are still scientifically TRIBBLE, and SW doesn't try to technobabble anything because it's not important to the ****ing story, it's somehow harder sci-fi than SW.
Either SW and ST are both science fantasy, or neither of them are.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
waves jedi hand star wars wins no ifs ands or buts to it
You're missing the point, daan2006. I'm not arguing that ST wins. I'm arguing that SW has just as much of a right to be called science fiction as ST does (and as much of a right to be called "hard" science fiction, which is to say, none at all).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Can the opponent stop a transporter beam? No?
Beam high-yield Photon/Quantum/Tricobalt/Gravimetric/Spatial Charges/whatever sort of extremely highly destructive boom-boom into their reactor room/engine room/ordnance room/bridge/etc etc etc.
The Dominion can even beam through standard Federation shielding, what chance does any group that hasn't even put prototypes for teleporters into production?
Not all Star Wars beam weapons are analogous to real-world lasers. Some are, but not all. If the Death Star's planet buster is a giant blaster then.... that's a very different calculation than if we try to say it's a conventional laser(which really.... is kinda preposterous IMO). Why? well... real lasers can't be aimed the way it is shown to be aimable. There's more of course.... Real lasers are invisible unless they're pointed at you... :P An excellent point. Any race that doesn't even understand the basic fundamental principles of a transporter would either need to get lucky, or spend years of research to figure out how to block them.
My character Tsin'xing
I have a Chiss cipher agent in SWTOR too. I call him Chisscheese.
It's also worth pointing out that Star Wars when compared to Star Trek is technologically stagnant to an obscene degree.
This is taking the EU into account, so if you want to ignore the EU, then my argument is null and void.
The civilizations in Star Wars have been using the same technology for several thousand years. The lightsabers they use in the movies are not that different from the ones in the Old Republic. Hyperdrive has been around for several thousand years, blasters have been around for several thousand years. Warships have been around for several thousand years.
Even in the game TOR you can see that technology used there is almost unchanged from the technology we see in the movies. Speeders, blasters, even the same industrial companies that have survived several thousand years.
But very few new things have been created. This is the biggest possible divide, because it seems that for all intents and purposes, the technology level of Star Wars has plateaued several thousand years before the movies and innovation is practically non-existant.
The IG-88 droids were prototype assassin droids, but assassin droids have been around for far longer -- and they aren't too dissimilar. You have the superweapons that have been pointed out, sure. But those are the exception to the rule. They've never gained widespread acceptance and they're almost always destroyed before they can do any damage, or they're destroyed not long after they perform a one-hit wonder of shock and awe.
Star Trek on the other hand continues to advance technology. Our technology in Star Trek never plateaus. There is always something bigger, better, and more advanced in the very near future.
The Empire might have raw numbers, but they lack the technological edge. They lack the information warfare element that made the Dominion so dangerous. They lack the biomorphic virus that Odo infected the female founder with because they don't have Odo to transmit the virus to begin with (which some would argue was the only way the Federation could win the Dominion War). And if after several thousand years of technological stagnation, something tells me they aren't going to be able to counter the Dominion being able to beam through their shields while they're still up in time to stop them from utterly decimating the Empire.
With or without the help from the vorta setting other factions against the Empire as part of their warfare tactics.
My character Tsin'xing
Chiss just feel perfect for cipher agents. Vicio is my Chiss cipher agent. (as in "vicious")
Because no matter the mechanism by which the energy is applied, to cause an Earth-size planet to go pop like that requires you to impart a minimum of 1E38 Joules to it. It could've been done with the world's biggest potato gun, and it would still have required you to impart 1E38 Joules. And in support of Alderaan being Earth-size, I point at the epilogue of Revenge of the Sith, featuring a scene on Alderaan's surface and filmed in live-action, with Bail Organa, an ordinary human wandering around as if he was on Earth. Gravity is directly proportional to mass, ergo Alderaan's mass is the same or close to Earth's.
And for the exact procedure for getting that number, link one, link two.
Hardly, because as I have pointed out repeatedly, transporters get blocked by every damn thing. The only thing we have observed Dominion transporters defeating was Federation deflector shields.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Mostly because no hard numbers were given in the ~6 hours of screentime the Empire got.
Now, if we're including EU into there, well... Quite frankly, I don't see it as a contest at all. The Empire's main ship of the line, your average Joe Star Destroyer's hypermatter reactor peaks at around 7.73
You cannot defend against a transporter beam placing a live warhead into your bridge, or perhaps worse, a boarding party of Jem'Hadar warriors.
Star Destroyers do not have any secondary bridges or command interfaces.
All it took was a single A-Wing, the lightest and smallest of the Rebellion fighters, crashing into the Super Star Destroyer's unshielded bridge to scrap her.
Guess what the Dominion like to do? Yes, that's right, they love their Ramming Speed. Yes, that's right, they love utilizing transporters, and seem to be able to transport in whenever and where ever they damn well please.
This is not even a discussion, so really, stop trying.
And that's just my personal favorites. Outside of that we've got telepathy, telekinesis, godlike aliens (protip: there's no functional difference between someone who is a god and someone who isn't but has godlike powers), and all sorts of other TRIBBLE, but because ST gives technobabble explanations which are still scientifically TRIBBLE, and SW doesn't try to technobabble anything because it's not important to the ****ing story, it's somehow harder sci-fi than SW.
Transporters get blocked by people sneezing too hard in their vicinity, for Pete's sake.
Just because they were never mentioned because they were never relevant doesn't mean they don't exist. It's a basic common-sense engineering principle to have secondary controls.
As I pointed out when Iconians brought it up, freak million-to-one accident. Required A) the deflector shields to be brought down first, otherwise it would've gone splat, and
No, it's most certainly not a discussion when people keep bringing up arguments that have already been soundly refuted a dozen times over like a broken ****ing record.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You say that transporters are horribly unreliable, even if it's part of the plot (Yet completely ignoring all of the times they were used in fantastical ways) but then you turn around and say that a lone A-Wing crippling a Super Star Destroyer was a freak accident, even though it was also part of the plot?
Man...just...man...
You know you tripped someone's nerve when they start throwing around that much invective.
Thanks for the laugh.
They are embarrassments to the name Sith. A crybaby and an electroshocking TRIBBLE job.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
In Straight Space Strength of Arms Empire. Star Trek ship sizes do not compare to Star wars sizes and armor means everything in a fight like this. Even with their shields disabled Star Destroyers take incredible amounts of punishment. The bridge kill that took out the Imperial Star Destroyer in 6 (The small ones are called Victory) happened because they managed to disable the BRIDGE deflector system
If we go to a combination of Ground and Space harder to call. Dominion ships have atmospheric capabilities making the AT-AT and AT-ST perfect targets. Star Destroyers have no way of operating in those conditions and the empire in general does not have the ships like an X-wing or Millennium Falcon style frigate that could go head to head with those ships in an atmosphere. They are capable of orbital bombardment but that just turns a planet to glass. Only works on a Scorched earth setting.
Ground Troop wise they're about equal on the short term with the long term edge going to the jem'Hadar. Throw Changlings into the mix on one side and you have potentially the ultimate in infiltration able to throw entire armies into chaos with no real counter. That can swing battles and ultimately the war.
If we throw bosses into the crossfire it gets even more complicated. Changelings are nearly impossible to kill lightsabers would at best have a limited effect and there's no way to know if Force Lightning would even scratch them. But at the same time can they deal with someone with that kind of telekinetic power? The only recorded race that comes even close to what they have outside of the Q would be Vulcans and that power was lost to the ages. No one's truly prepared for that kind of Telekinetic onslaught. It's not impossible given the actions of Vader and the Emperor in the past that they might be able to rip apart changlings at the molecular level. So too many unknowns to call a clear winner.
On a straight battle of ships Empire.
Space+ground without scorched earth tactics Dominion
Unlimited Warfare... Empire with a few * attached.
I'm leaving it conventional because if we throw in super weapons then the Empire wins hands down.
Default assumption is that when dealing with weird ****, the transporters won't work, the holodeck safeties will fail, and the warp core ejection system will go offline, because that's the pattern of the show.
That's the way I talk when I think someone's an idiot. If you weren't an idiot you might have noticed before.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I hate to do this to you but: That wasn't a super.
That was an Imperial star destroyer. Second grade of the three grades of destroyer. (Victory which is the smallest) Imperial which is what's used in Episode 4 (first shot) And Super Revealed in 5 and 6. There was only one super in the battle of Endor and that didnt go down until after the imperial got nailed.
It was an Executor Class Super Star Destroyer also known as a Executor Class Dreadnaught, the A-Wing destroyed the Executor not an Imperial Class.
There are three classes of Destroyer: Imperial I, II, and Tector.
About power levels of Imperial ships (I cannot do maths so no numbers):
-Minimum energy needed to destroy a Earth sized planet = Death Star I's approximate power output
-Size of DS II compared to I
-Size of DS II's power core (scaled using the Falcon and X-Wing)
-Calculate approximate size of the DS I's power core
-Calculate the size and power levels of a Star Destroyers core (the hemispherical lump on the bottom of the ship).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Redundant , A vibro Pike ( carried by the Elite Red Guards ) can go toe to toe with a saber, and they are publically availible weapons on the open market in Star wars, they will slice a Ships bulkhead in half
Actually you are able to see real world lasers. Have you ever shined a high powered green laser off into the distance at night? And the Darth star basically shot a giant green turbolaser.
And as for the firepower and capabilities of a Star destroyer and sour star destroyer, I found these:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_II-class_Star_Destroyer
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor
Just from watching the movies with the exception of the Death Star, Star Wars tech doesn't look nearly as impressive as Star Trek. Blowing up a planet in one shot is damn impressive but aside from that Star Wars tech doesn't appear nearly as advanced as Star Trek tech. The Star Wars lore however makes Star Wars tech sound much better as you hear about the insanely vast numbers of ships and the size of the Empire etc, but on screen all I see a few flights of X-Wings destroying a Death Star and teddy bears beating an entire legion of the Emperor's finest troops. To me there is some disconnect between the two which makes it hard to say how powerful they actually are.
With Star Trek I just feel that what you see on screen does a better job with matching with the wider lore, where as with Star Wars the movies seem to paint a different picture to the wider resource material.
In terms of the high of destructive power then the Empire can create Death Stars. I think the most destructive thing you see from the Dominion was their attempt to detonate the Bajoran sun and wipe out the Bajoran system with a trilithium, tekasite, and protomatter bomb.
Just like in the first two episodes of Season 5 of Doctor Who:
Doctor #11: "Is there anything you'd like to say? I've heard them all."
Amy Pond: "I'm in my nightie."
Melee: Force Pike vs. Kar'takin
Short Range: DH-17 Blaster Pistol vs. Jem'Hadar Polaron Beam Pistol
Long Range: E-11 Blaster Rifle vs. Jem'Hadar Full Auto Rifle
Explosives: Thermal Detonator vs. "Houdini" Subspace Anti-personnel Mine
Fighter: TIE Interceptor vs. Jem'Hadar Fighter
Capital Ship: Imperial II-class Star Destroyer vs. Jem'Hadar Dreadnought
Literary Challenges Entries- Star Trek Online: Lord English
Dramatis Personae of Star Trek Online: Lord English
I'm going to say which one would probably win in the other that you mentioned them.
Melee: force pike wins.
Short range: DH-17 pistol.
Long range: E-11 rifile.
Explosives: Thermal detonator.
Fighter: Jem'Hadar fighter.
Capital ship: Star destroyer.
However if the dominion brought a whole fleet of Jem'Hadar fighters against star destroyers then I would have to hand it to the Dominion because the fighters are faster and more agile than the star destroyers and would be harder to hit.
And the really funny thing is, the maximum yield numbers given for turbolasers in the Incredible Cross-Sections books are actually several orders of magnitude less than what you'd get by scaling down from the Death Star.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Super Star Destroyer is all i need to take out your star trek univers
system Lord Baal is dead
Turbolasers aren't lasers because they don't behave like lasers. A laser would be invisible in hard vacuum, for one (what you're seeing in the quoted example is the laser reflecting off of airborne particles and air molecules).
The EU explanation is that all "blaster" and "laser" weapons are in fact plasma throwers, and the movie-level canon ROTJ novelization indicates when Leia shoots a scout trooper that they work by thermal action, not technobabble.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Not the "Star Wars is fantasy" argument again. Let me just quote what I said on the last page.
Either SW and ST are both science fantasy, or neither of them are.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
waves jedi hand star wars wins no ifs ands or buts to it
system Lord Baal is dead
You're missing the point, daan2006. I'm not arguing that ST wins. I'm arguing that SW has just as much of a right to be called science fiction as ST does (and as much of a right to be called "hard" science fiction, which is to say, none at all).
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/