Put Aux2Bat on a star cruiser, is it going to break 10k DPS? Maybe depending on how you build it. Is it going to break 20k DPS? Unlikley.
Put Aux2Bat on a Rom ship (E.g. Scimitar). Is it going to break 10k DPS? You would want to hope so. Is it going to break 20k? Probably. 30k? Depends on the build but also possible.
Notice how most of the Aux2Bat nerf calls have occured since LoR? Before it was heralded as an amazing build to make cruisers more viable in 'Escorts Online', now that romulans can use it, it's OP?
Nerfing Aux2Bat isn't going to reduce these obsene DPS numbers we're seeing by much, but it will make a lot of cruisers less viable than they are now.
Put Aux2Bat on a star cruiser, is it going to break 10k DPS? Maybe depending on how you build it. Is it going to break 20k DPS? Unlikley.
Put Aux2Bat on a Rom ship (E.g. Scimitar). Is it going to break 10k DPS? You would want to hope so. Is it going to break 20k? Probably. 30k? Depends on the build but also possible.
Notice how most of the Aux2Bat nerf calls have occured since LoR? Before it was heralded as an amazing build to make cruisers more viable in 'Escorts Online', now that romulans can use it, it's OP?
Nerfing Aux2Bat isn't going to reduce these obsene DPS numbers we're seeing by much, but it will make a lot of cruisers less viable than they are now.
Reducing the 'uptime' of the main defensive buff on most DPS builds would have made tank designs even worse? Most of my escorts at the time relied on EPtS, TSS, and HE as their primary methods to staying alive. That change would have made them actually squishy for the first time. My hull tanking Neg'Var of the time didn't even run EPtS and wouldn't have even noticed.
Regardless of if you agree with that specific change the concept itself was a good one. Less 'buff buff smash' and more 'this is a good time to use ability X' would be good for STO.
Most escorts can't chain EPtS back-to-back for 100% uptime without sacrificing other aspects of their precious damage output, so EPtS is still often a reactionary power on their end, which is what the devs apparently intended for it to be used as. But cruisers, with all their extra engineering slots, are able to, and usually do, run EPtS for 100% uptime. The problem with reducing that is then cruisers lose the one thing going for them - defense via damage reduction. Escorts and other tactical-heavy ships have other defensive options available to them, usually in the form of running away, and often have higher evasion values, but cruisers are often forced to remain in the battle until it ends. Making cruisers more squishy without massively reducing escort survivability (which that change probably wouldn't have) was too one-sided.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Most escorts can't chain EPtS back-to-back for 100% uptime without sacrificing other aspects of their precious damage output, so EPtS is still often a reactionary power on their end, which is what the devs apparently intended for it to be used as. But cruisers, with all their extra engineering slots, are able to, and usually do, run EPtS for 100% uptime. The problem with reducing that is then cruisers lose the one thing going for them - defense via damage reduction. Escorts and other tactical-heavy ships have other defensive options available to them, usually in the form of running away, and often have higher evasion values, but cruisers are often forced to remain in the battle until it ends. Making cruisers more squishy without massively reducing escort survivability (which that change probably wouldn't have) was too one-sided.
They can't? Most of mine now not only chain EPtS they have thrown EPtW or E into the mix as well thanks to DCE doffs. All but my poor defiant which is a bad escort layout to begin with. My Steamrunner, Akira, and Risan Corvette are keeping 100% uptime on two EPtX powers.
I swear, we are all playing different games.
Additionally I wish if this game was going to remain mindless buff smash we could just have a toggle autocast on boff abilities. Save me the effort of making keybinds...
Additionally I wish if this game was going to remain mindless buff smash we could just have a toggle autocast on boff abilities. Save me the effort of making keybinds...
I'd recommend a gaming keyboard with built-in macro support. ;-)
Oh no worries I have a keyboard and mouse that work very well to make sto more .. enjoyable. I dont think macros are officially alloed tho so yeah.
Pfft seriously it's not allowed? I am too lazy to do it, but I can program my keyboard to press, for example ctrl+8 any time I hit one of my programmable "G" keys on my Logitech G15 keyboard... And that's technically not allowed? That's silly.
They can't? Most of mine now not only chain EPtS they have thrown EPtW or E into the mix as well thanks to DCE doffs. All but my poor defiant which is a bad escort layout to begin with. My Steamrunner, Akira, and Risan Corvette are keeping 100% uptime on two EPtX powers.
I swear, we are all playing different games.
Additionally I wish if this game was going to remain mindless buff smash we could just have a toggle autocast on boff abilities. Save me the effort of making keybinds...
Slotting DCEs is an example of what I meant by sacrificing damage output. I didn't say it's impossible to run EPtS 100% uptime on an escort, just that it requires the captain to make sacrifices elsewhere, and from my experiences with escort captains they're rarely willing to do so. I ran a Chimera with 100% uptime on EPtS and EPtW as a damage/tank hybrid for a while, but I've always built my ships survivability-first while throwing as much damage in to make use of the survivability in team situations by being able to effectively tank.
In other MMOs, the tank doesn't just have more hitpoints, he also has (barring debuffs) 100% uptime of greater damage mitigation, usually through armor and passives. Cruisers can equip more armor consoles, but STO doesn't fully have that mechanic in shields due to the fact that everyone can equip the same shield systems and have exactly the same damage mitigation with minor variations in shield HP. Only activated abilities change the system there, and EPtS is the only 100% uptime shield damage mitigation power in the game.
Perhaps what needs to be done is move the EPtX powers to a higher tier of slots (i.e. move EPtX 1 from ensign to lieutenant, etc.) and move some of the other utility powers down a notch to compensate (Aux to Dampeners, Aux to SIF maybe) and for the love of Q make a new power or two for low-level engineering. Shifting the abilities up would reduce escort shield damage reduction by forcing them to use lower level versions of the power but cruisers could still slot the higher-tier powers with some modification and it would reflect the fact that cruisers have larger warp cores and therefore greater power generation. Of course, moving powers from one rank to another is non-trivial so this likely wouldn't even be considered (a Dev commented on something along these lines a long time ago, don't recall where).
And now that I'm thoroughly off-topic...
I've tried A2B builds before, but I always felt that they reduced my survivability too much by reducing the effectiveness of Aux heals, which comprise almost all of the hull heals. Of course, I haven't had an A2B build since the Team cooldown split, so Eng Team and Sci Team become more viable, but I'm still curious how players manage their other heals (if they use any others). Waiting for Aux power to return is usually not a good idea because you need the heal "now" and slotting EPtA to give yourself "emergency" Aux power never seemed to work for me either because it threw off the cooldown on EPtS.
Pfft seriously it's not allowed? I am too lazy to do it, but I can program my keyboard to press, for example ctrl+8 any time I hit one of my programmable "G" keys on my Logitech G15 keyboard... And that's technically not allowed? That's silly.
Game companies often put in stuff about not being allowed to automate the game in their ToS, especially MMOs, usually so they have enough of a legal stance to take action against botters such as gold farmers without being sued for taking the action. Software macros are usually easily detected, but hardware macros are harder to trace since you're still technically sending all the information the same way.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
First off sorry for not responding to my thread sooner, I had a lot going on.
Second, I'm very impressed on how well this conversation is going, I've seen some very good points brought up from both sides of the fence.
Congratulations to you guys, good job keeping it civil!
Now, the problem that I see with the aux2bat is not that is allows people to achieve high dps, although it does do this to an extent. I can achieve a high dps without aux2bat, but I don't gain the survivability with it that I do with aux2bat. Basically, aux2bat is the best of both worlds great survivability, and great dps. Usually one has to give up something to gain something. With aux2bat you really do not have to give up very much, to gain a whole lot more. This is a direct result of the Cool-Down time, constantly being refreshed across the board. Allowing one to consistently use their Bridge Officer Abilities, This alone is the general issue with the build.
Furthermore, and probably more importantly...
From what I can tell, aux2bat is the end all/be all build. In saying this I mean to say that, it would appear to me, and also from what I hear other players saying as well, that aux2bat is the best viable build for not only Engineer/Cruisers. But, for every Class/Ship (or Arch-type+Ship) in the game. Meaning that not only "Tanks" are using this. Science Officers, Engineer Officers, and Tactical Officers, all use this with pretty much any ship, excluding a few ships that just won't support it very well. However, this is easily negated simply by the players choosing not to fly that ship.
In closing, what this effectively does is make otherwise very effective ships, and builds become easily over-looked by a vast majority of players. In other games this is typically most commonly referred to as "The Flavor of the Month". Because generally in most other games that I have played, these sort of things get "Adjusted", and/or "Balanced". Within a few months. This has been going on for quite some time. Which will make it that much harder on the player base when it does finally get "Adjusted".
Because, if they are willing to finally get around to fixing issues like Autonomous Regeneration, they will most certainly get around to fixing issues with Aux2Bat. It's really not a question of "Will they do it?", is is a question of "When are they going to do it?".
Thank you all for reading, and providing your logical feedback.
Furthermore, and probably more importantly...
From what I can tell, aux2bat is the end all/be all build. In saying this I mean to say that, it would appear to me, and also from what I hear other players saying as well, that aux2bat is the best viable build for not only Engineer/Cruisers. But, for every Class/Ship (or Arch-type+Ship) in the game.
Very untrue. Top-DPS is not achieved with Aux2Batt. Top Science is not achieved with Aux2batt. The heights of Zombie Tanking are not achieved with Aux2batt. And healers definitely don't run it.
Aux2Batt does two things well:
1. It turns marginal layouts that have insufficient Tac power slots into ships that can become damage-dealing powerhouses.
2. It is CHEAP. Yes, you think, "But people pay 13M+ per Tech!". Those people are fools. This is a build that costs nothing to build. That's what makes it work, that you don't have to spend an arm and a leg in an attempt to turn your ship into an Escort, or otherwise fly an Escort. Because that's what it's always about, turning your ship into what amounts to an Escort.
If you want to make a ship that reaches the top-tier of any class, you have to dump Aux2Batt. Aux2Batt is for building a functional ship on a budget, and for turning an otherwise worthless ship into a decent ship. But it won't make you the best. But ships with layouts like the Assault Cruiser(FreeSov, MUAC, Gal-X, Vorcha, etc.), or worse, the Galaxy, NEED it. Otherwise they'd be worthless trash.
Comments
This, pretty much.
^^ This, pretty much.
Most escorts can't chain EPtS back-to-back for 100% uptime without sacrificing other aspects of their precious damage output, so EPtS is still often a reactionary power on their end, which is what the devs apparently intended for it to be used as. But cruisers, with all their extra engineering slots, are able to, and usually do, run EPtS for 100% uptime. The problem with reducing that is then cruisers lose the one thing going for them - defense via damage reduction. Escorts and other tactical-heavy ships have other defensive options available to them, usually in the form of running away, and often have higher evasion values, but cruisers are often forced to remain in the battle until it ends. Making cruisers more squishy without massively reducing escort survivability (which that change probably wouldn't have) was too one-sided.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
They can't? Most of mine now not only chain EPtS they have thrown EPtW or E into the mix as well thanks to DCE doffs. All but my poor defiant which is a bad escort layout to begin with. My Steamrunner, Akira, and Risan Corvette are keeping 100% uptime on two EPtX powers.
I swear, we are all playing different games.
Additionally I wish if this game was going to remain mindless buff smash we could just have a toggle autocast on boff abilities. Save me the effort of making keybinds...
I'd recommend a gaming keyboard with built-in macro support. ;-)
Oh no worries I have a keyboard and mouse that work very well to make sto more .. enjoyable. I dont think macros are officially alloed tho so yeah.
Pfft seriously it's not allowed? I am too lazy to do it, but I can program my keyboard to press, for example ctrl+8 any time I hit one of my programmable "G" keys on my Logitech G15 keyboard... And that's technically not allowed? That's silly.
Slotting DCEs is an example of what I meant by sacrificing damage output. I didn't say it's impossible to run EPtS 100% uptime on an escort, just that it requires the captain to make sacrifices elsewhere, and from my experiences with escort captains they're rarely willing to do so. I ran a Chimera with 100% uptime on EPtS and EPtW as a damage/tank hybrid for a while, but I've always built my ships survivability-first while throwing as much damage in to make use of the survivability in team situations by being able to effectively tank.
In other MMOs, the tank doesn't just have more hitpoints, he also has (barring debuffs) 100% uptime of greater damage mitigation, usually through armor and passives. Cruisers can equip more armor consoles, but STO doesn't fully have that mechanic in shields due to the fact that everyone can equip the same shield systems and have exactly the same damage mitigation with minor variations in shield HP. Only activated abilities change the system there, and EPtS is the only 100% uptime shield damage mitigation power in the game.
Perhaps what needs to be done is move the EPtX powers to a higher tier of slots (i.e. move EPtX 1 from ensign to lieutenant, etc.) and move some of the other utility powers down a notch to compensate (Aux to Dampeners, Aux to SIF maybe) and for the love of Q make a new power or two for low-level engineering. Shifting the abilities up would reduce escort shield damage reduction by forcing them to use lower level versions of the power but cruisers could still slot the higher-tier powers with some modification and it would reflect the fact that cruisers have larger warp cores and therefore greater power generation. Of course, moving powers from one rank to another is non-trivial so this likely wouldn't even be considered (a Dev commented on something along these lines a long time ago, don't recall where).
And now that I'm thoroughly off-topic...
I've tried A2B builds before, but I always felt that they reduced my survivability too much by reducing the effectiveness of Aux heals, which comprise almost all of the hull heals. Of course, I haven't had an A2B build since the Team cooldown split, so Eng Team and Sci Team become more viable, but I'm still curious how players manage their other heals (if they use any others). Waiting for Aux power to return is usually not a good idea because you need the heal "now" and slotting EPtA to give yourself "emergency" Aux power never seemed to work for me either because it threw off the cooldown on EPtS.
Game companies often put in stuff about not being allowed to automate the game in their ToS, especially MMOs, usually so they have enough of a legal stance to take action against botters such as gold farmers without being sued for taking the action. Software macros are usually easily detected, but hardware macros are harder to trace since you're still technically sending all the information the same way.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Second, I'm very impressed on how well this conversation is going, I've seen some very good points brought up from both sides of the fence.
Congratulations to you guys, good job keeping it civil!
Now, the problem that I see with the aux2bat is not that is allows people to achieve high dps, although it does do this to an extent. I can achieve a high dps without aux2bat, but I don't gain the survivability with it that I do with aux2bat. Basically, aux2bat is the best of both worlds great survivability, and great dps. Usually one has to give up something to gain something. With aux2bat you really do not have to give up very much, to gain a whole lot more. This is a direct result of the Cool-Down time, constantly being refreshed across the board. Allowing one to consistently use their Bridge Officer Abilities, This alone is the general issue with the build.
Furthermore, and probably more importantly...
From what I can tell, aux2bat is the end all/be all build. In saying this I mean to say that, it would appear to me, and also from what I hear other players saying as well, that aux2bat is the best viable build for not only Engineer/Cruisers. But, for every Class/Ship (or Arch-type+Ship) in the game. Meaning that not only "Tanks" are using this. Science Officers, Engineer Officers, and Tactical Officers, all use this with pretty much any ship, excluding a few ships that just won't support it very well. However, this is easily negated simply by the players choosing not to fly that ship.
In closing, what this effectively does is make otherwise very effective ships, and builds become easily over-looked by a vast majority of players. In other games this is typically most commonly referred to as "The Flavor of the Month". Because generally in most other games that I have played, these sort of things get "Adjusted", and/or "Balanced". Within a few months. This has been going on for quite some time. Which will make it that much harder on the player base when it does finally get "Adjusted".
Because, if they are willing to finally get around to fixing issues like Autonomous Regeneration, they will most certainly get around to fixing issues with Aux2Bat. It's really not a question of "Will they do it?", is is a question of "When are they going to do it?".
Thank you all for reading, and providing your logical feedback.
Aux2Batt does two things well:
1. It turns marginal layouts that have insufficient Tac power slots into ships that can become damage-dealing powerhouses.
2. It is CHEAP. Yes, you think, "But people pay 13M+ per Tech!". Those people are fools. This is a build that costs nothing to build. That's what makes it work, that you don't have to spend an arm and a leg in an attempt to turn your ship into an Escort, or otherwise fly an Escort. Because that's what it's always about, turning your ship into what amounts to an Escort.
If you want to make a ship that reaches the top-tier of any class, you have to dump Aux2Batt. Aux2Batt is for building a functional ship on a budget, and for turning an otherwise worthless ship into a decent ship. But it won't make you the best. But ships with layouts like the Assault Cruiser(FreeSov, MUAC, Gal-X, Vorcha, etc.), or worse, the Galaxy, NEED it. Otherwise they'd be worthless trash.