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FAW Vesta?
spaceeagle20
Member Posts: 971 Arc User
While playing and repping up my sci toon, I am encountering a problem which I've not encountered with my Tac Rom and my Tac human.
Lack of DPS? Not really ... or maybe, yes, it's related to it.
My human sci toon is always kind of running short of expertise, despite doing more or less the same amount of stfs and so on ...
I guess this is a matter of DPS and/or of amount of killing stuff, and moving him from my beloved Voyager to the Dyson Destroyer didn't change things too much.
So I've decided to buy for him a good powerful science ship and, looking out there, the famous tactical Vesta looks like the best one for the job, a ship that I'd purchase and try anyway.
Now, I'd happily spend 5000 zen and buy the full-pack if I had 5000 zen right now but I don't have them.
So, I was wondering whether I could get away well with just one of the Vesta ships.
I am not concerned about the consoles which seem like 95% of the special bundle packs consoles out there ( Spinal Lance, Thalaron pulse, Disruptor autocannons ... I've got them ) good for the lulz but not convenient in the long run ( well, actually , with the present nerfed Thalaron it's the NPCs who lulz at you.)
So , as you may guess, I am concerned about the aux dual heavy phaser cannons ( 1 for every Vesta ship ) and the balance between weapons power and aux power in a sci tactical ship like the Vesta.
My question to those who've already used a Vesta is : is FAW viable on a Vesta ? Or the sacrifice of either weapon power or aux power or both is not worth it?
Lack of DPS? Not really ... or maybe, yes, it's related to it.
My human sci toon is always kind of running short of expertise, despite doing more or less the same amount of stfs and so on ...
I guess this is a matter of DPS and/or of amount of killing stuff, and moving him from my beloved Voyager to the Dyson Destroyer didn't change things too much.
So I've decided to buy for him a good powerful science ship and, looking out there, the famous tactical Vesta looks like the best one for the job, a ship that I'd purchase and try anyway.
Now, I'd happily spend 5000 zen and buy the full-pack if I had 5000 zen right now but I don't have them.
So, I was wondering whether I could get away well with just one of the Vesta ships.
I am not concerned about the consoles which seem like 95% of the special bundle packs consoles out there ( Spinal Lance, Thalaron pulse, Disruptor autocannons ... I've got them ) good for the lulz but not convenient in the long run ( well, actually , with the present nerfed Thalaron it's the NPCs who lulz at you.)
So , as you may guess, I am concerned about the aux dual heavy phaser cannons ( 1 for every Vesta ship ) and the balance between weapons power and aux power in a sci tactical ship like the Vesta.
My question to those who've already used a Vesta is : is FAW viable on a Vesta ? Or the sacrifice of either weapon power or aux power or both is not worth it?
Post edited by spaceeagle20 on
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As for the question "is FAW a viable option?", I'd say yes. The main problem is keeping both aux and weapon power at the highest possible levels. My fed sci uses a science vesta, can't recall the precise name, and is able to run with power lvls around 125/80/50/110. This way I'll be able to use energy weapons and aux dependant sci abilities but I'll sacrifice some defence: not an extremely high shield power for instance.
My main power boost is however plasmonic leech that gives +16 to all power lvls (with 9 points in flow capacitors), balancing my subsystems without it would be a lot harder.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=tralalala_0
any suggestions ?
Wait a min ... you mean that I can just get one Vesta at 2500 zen and then reclaim it the ship 3 times? It sounds strange ... don't those heavy dual cannons work like ... consoles, and there's one on each of the vestas, whose pack is 5000?
Maybe the comparison is a little ... off the scale but with my scimitar I run with very low shield power level too at the start, then of course I have the plasmonic leech there, EPTS, the warp core energizer, 6 points in shield performance ... and maybe they get around 80? never checked that but I know they are not an issue.
110 is not bad ... after all I think I can just tell that , after placing the mandatory consoles, I'll have room for only a maximum of 3 partgens, in case I want to boost GW3, which after all , is great for keeping the npcs in one place ( CC is the name? ) but it can never reach the damage level of fully charged energy weapons ( it's kinetic damage if I recall well, right? )
Anyway, if I can get away with 2500 zen and 3 dual heavy cannons, I'll try the Vesta cannons too.
Yes, for PvE it's TRIBBLE ... I PvP very very rarely but once, at least, I've PvPed against a Vesta and I think it's TRIBBLE for PvP too.
I have facepalmed over 9000 times and the 9000th time was when I saw that you run the Science flagship of the Federation with GW3 and without ANY skillpoints in auxiliary performance. :eek::mad:
Even aux2bat cruisers have at least 3 points there.
Claim the ship, take off the cannons, dismiss the ship, then rinse and repeat. They aren't like the consoles at all. Though personally I would say take the three pack.
The main boon of the Vesta line is that it has the DHCs that run of aux power, so you can have max aux to power your sci skills too. It has a versatile BOFF layout so you can make it what you want, the hangar is just the icing on the cake.
The cannons are nice, but if you are trying to maximize your DPS, FAW is the answer. The cannons do some nice burst, and are certainly viable, but if you don't want to use them... you will likely end up more effective.
Of course, you lose the ability to use your sub system targeting... :rolleyes:
If you are trying to use Aux cannons, you still need to keep your weapon power up, or your rear weapons aren't worth jack.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
360 Anti-proton lets you use TSS.
Where rear weapons are concerned turrets don't do much anyway so use them as an addition chance for the proc. If you are luck enough to have a fleet or the required level you can use the warp core from the mine that increases your weapon power by a percentage of your aux.
I find things die faster with my Vesta then they ever did with my previous sci ship beam boat.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=vescort_0
Power levels 100/40/20/40
True on a beam build, but as I read the post I was replying to the poster was saying you lose TSS if you go for the aux cannons. I was just posting a work around for that.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sciscivesta_0
Doffs
3xdamage control engineers
1xgravimetric (chance for multiple grav wells)
1xTBR with pull effect
This ship is not built for pure dps, rather for a mix of damage and crowd control. May not be a dps monster but it gets the job done and its fun to fly.
The TBR with the pull effect is incredibly helpfull both for dealing damage and for pulling around npcs. Having two copies of it means I'll be running it 50% of the time, with 10s uptime and 10 downtime.
Such a boff layout can also be tested easily by getting a mirror reconissance science vessel from the exchange.
About using the aux cannons on the vesta I want to point out some of the issues I had when using them.
1) cannon boff powers require you to use the ltcom universal as a tactical boff, therefore limiting you to having a limited number of sci abilities.
2) running max aux will increase the dmg of the cannons but not that of your aft weapons if you use for example 2xturrets and a borg cutting beam for example since your weapon power would be lower. Even using torpedoes or mines back will lower your dmg output since you will have to turn every time you have to fire them.
3) since you probably won't be using EptW you won't be taking advantage of the increase in energy dmg the power gives.
4) in order to keep your target (especially stationary targets such as borg structures) in your 45° arc, you will probably end up parking yourself, go to 0% defence and get hit with everything the borg fire at you. This is something related to cannons in general and not only the aux ones.
It's a beam build with Grav Well and Eject Warp Plasma. Gravwell to bring the mobs alltogether, then EWP to eat them up. FAW when able. The A2B w/ 3x techs means you can lay dowm the Grav Well and EWP every 30 seconds. Full weapon power, beam and FAW, Grav and EWP all add up to a lot of damage.
Aggro tends to be a problem with the build, but I'm an engineer which really boosts survivability. The biggest weakness of the build is hull healing. I run 2 Emergency Power, 2 A2B, and 1EWP so I'm out of engineering slots. In science I have a Hazard Emitters, but with the Aux power flatlined by A2B I don't get much out of it. I really lean on the Engineering captain abilities. I don't know how viable it is for a science captain.
But, that 360 AP Beam is a good suggestion. It won't gain from your phaser consoles, but if you are running low weapon power anyway it won't matter, and it lets you still use your target sub system targeting on forward facing targets while you use your aux cannons.
That is how I currently run mine (Yes I know I said FAW was more DPS, but my Vesta is a funship, not my DPS machine. I run her loaded with all of her toys on :cool:)
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
DPS is basically always going to be better with Aux DHCs on the Vesta than normal DHCs
+ Go for the Recon Vesta (it has an extra Tac Console slot)
+ Dismiss and reclaim the ship until you have three Aux DHC Cannons.
+ Fill up the front slots with the Aux DHCs (or 2 and a torpedo launcher)
+ In the back slots, use the Borg Kinetic Cutting Beam and two Phaser Turrets.
BOFF slots should be something like:
LC Universal (Tac): TS1, CSV1, CRF2
E Universal (Eng): EPTS1
Lt Tac slot: TT1; APB1
Lt Eng slot: EPTS1; Aux2SIF1
Com Sci: [Take your pick, personally I'd use TSS1, TBR1, HE3 and GW3]
(Replace TS1 with TT1 if not using a Torp Launcher. For the torp version you can use two Conn Officer DOFFs to reduce the cooldown on Tac Team so you maintain maximum uptime)
Console loadout should be obvious enough:
Tactical: 4x Phaser Damage;
Engineering: Two Neutronium Alloys
Science: Assimilated Console/Plasmonic Leech (Optional: Quantum Field Focus, Vent Theta Radiation, Field Generator... etc.)
Quantum Field Focus's blast works well with the Phaser Tac Consoles and High Aux Setting but has a long cooldown (3 mins?).
If opting for a torpedo I'd pick the Romulan Hyper Plasma Launcher and use the Adapted MACO Deflector and Engine (2-piece set bonus grants +Aux setting and +Torpedo Damage). If not, go for the Assimilated Engine and Deflector as usual. For the Shield and Warp Core; the elite fleet versions would be the obvious choices.
For the Hangar Bay, it really has to be Elite Scorpions.
If you REALLY REALLY want to use Beam Target Subsystem commands, you can swap out the Kinetic Cutting Beam for an Omnidirectional Antiproton Beam Array (and use the Obelisk Subspace Rift Warp Core for a little extra damage). But realistically speaking I'd not bother.
Jack your Aux Power setting up so that it sits at 125 without any buffs (Or higher depending on your Warp Core - it might raise the cap); then do the same for shields so that with Full Plasmonic Leech (~+16 power depending on build) and EPTS1 (~24 power depending on build) it hits 125. Then transfer the rest to Weapons to boost the DPS of the rear turrets a little bit. You normally shouldn't need to boost your Engine power much.
Finished build should look a little like this.
Funsies
I am planning to make it a funship too : my Scimitar is more than enough as my DPS machine :P ... and my Avenger is not that bad either ... and still a work in progress.
Anyway, I get what you mean ... with that Lt. Commander? universal station, I have room for a subsystem targeting beam and also for 2 copies of CSV if I want to run them but, still, in PvE I don't see subsystem targeting so useful : shields go down fast anyway and I'd lose a phaser turret which would benefit from my tac consoles and from CSVs. Why not 2xEptW1 and 1 RSP ? I saw that combination in an old Vesta thread by ferdszo0 or whatever his name, the cardassian guy ... and I found it interesting.
And I can still use TSS to reinforce shields and/or a strong shield like the Adapted Maco and/or even a Dicrok if needed.
I don't see the usefulness of torps in a sci ship with 3 weapons fore and 3 aft : I don't use any of it even on my Scimitar ( talking of PvE ).
And I'd try to use PartGens plus the mandatory consoles (Leech, Borg, ROm ) then ... if I am dying too often and the Borg assimilated 2-pc set is not enough to keep me alive ... I'll reconsider. I wouldn't like to use aux2bat on the Vesta right from the start.
I did use it on my Scimitar for a while and now I am beyond it.
I'll probably have to stick with it on my Avenger.
Moreover, GW damage is not influenced by Aux Power? Since GW is considered to be the most powerful sci ability, wouldn't that result in a considerable DPS loss?
Consider also the S9 revamp where Nukara passive T4 will bost damage coming from high aux levels ...
I think you're underestimating AoE Torp abilities combined with GW... at least for PVE.
And Torps don't depend on Weapon damage; so they go ESPECIALLY well on a Vesta.
GW is one of the most damaging Sci abilities, but its damage can't be buffed that much via consoles or skillpoints (region of +12% from a full skillpoint spec IIRC) - it's mainly just pushing up your Aux level that helps its DPS (region of +70% going via tooltips); but even then the actual effectiveness in game will vary vastly depending on what pixel the enemy ship happens to be sitting on at the time.
GW3 damage pales in comparison to just bunching a load of stuff up with GW1; applying a few debuffs (CSV+APB?) and then hitting them with overlapping Torpedo Spread splash damage.
For Single Targets? Sure. But then you can Debuff and PowerDrain Single Targets into oblivion and swap to CRF instead of CSV. There's nothing to stop you bringing both a Launcher and another DHC along; since having the ability to use a Torp Launcher only really costs you one Ensign Tactical Slot.
Min/Maxxing really.
Running EptW boosts your damage output a little bit, at the cost of a lot of survivability. RSP is a one-use "Save me" power but won't help in a prolonged fight the way that EPTS's shield resists will, and you'll lose some BIG Hull Heals from Aux2SIF (for both yourself and allies).
There's also power level balancing to consider: due to Power efficiency bonuses; it's more efficient point-for-point to set Weapons Power and Engine Power LOW (letting your power efficiency bonuses bring them up to around 50-55 all by themselves) and set Shield Power and Aux Power High (efficiency bonuses won't work, but the inherent Ship/Warp Core/2set Aux bonuses and EPTS, and Plasmonic Leech all will). You basically end up being able to run both Shields and Aux at 125-130; whilst keeping Engines just over 75 and Weapons up around 90. All this will make you as survivable and damaging as possible, whilst kicking in the maximum amount of [AMP] bonus from an Elite Fleet Warp Core.
Fore:
2 DHC's (at least [Acc] x2)
(I like to use the Aux cannons with an all Phaser setup and high Aux, but you can use any energy type if you're willing to sacrifice Aux power, I like a little variety)
1 Beam Array (at least [Acc] x2)
Aft:
1 Beam Array (at least [Acc] x2)
Kinetic Cutting Beam Mk XII [Dmg]x3
Breen Transphasic Cluster Torpedo(I sometime switch with mines, Trics, or a Har'Peng depending on the situation)
Elite Fleet Axion Deflector Array MK XII [PartG] [CoSys] [SsD] [SciCdr]
(for the Sci power cool down)
M.A.C.O. Impulse Engines Mk XII
M.A.C.O. Resilient Shield Array Mk XII (both for the two piece bonus reducing power cool down)
Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XII [Bat] [W->S] [ACap] [EWS] [SSS]
Eng Consoles:
Console - Universal - Assimilated Module
Console - Engineering - Enhanced Neutronium Alloy Mk XII [+HullRep]
Console - Universal - Point Defense System (yes, I like it)
Sci Consoles:
Console - Science - Emitter Array Mk XII [-Th] [Pla]
(adds Plasma damage proc to my energy weapons)
Console - Science - Particle Generators Mk XII [HuH] [-Th]
Console - Science - Shield Refrequencer Mk XII [+ShHP] (adds Protonic damage to my Sci abilities)
Console - Science - Field Generator Mk XII
(I use the negative threat generating consoles, because.. well face it; its a Sci ship, not a tank)
Tac Consoles:
x3 - Console - Tactical - Phaser Relay Mk XII
(I switch the Tac consoles depending upon my energy/ weapon type)
Hangar:
Yellowstone Runabouts (for CC), or Elite Scorpion Fighters (for DPS)
BOFF Setup
Ens Uni: TT1
Lt Tac: BO1, CSV1
(depending on enemy type, PvE map, or just because I may use FAW1, CSV1)
Lt Eng: EptS1, RSP1
LtCmdr Uni: SciTm1, TSS2, TBR2
Cmdr Sci: PH1, HE2, PSW1, GW3
(subject to change when I feel like it)
DOFF Setup:
I try to use all Very Rare Doffs when possible
Energy Weapon Officer: reduce cool down on cannons
(or Energy Weapons Officer: Chance to gain shield power with energy attacks)
Deflector Officer: Reduce cool down on deflector abilities
(or Quartermaster: reduces cool down on batteries)
Tractor Beam Officer: TBR now pulls, rather than pushes
Gravimetric Scientist: Chance to create Aftershock Gravity Wells
(with high Aux this DOFF is ridiculous)
Photonic Studies Scientist: Chance to trigger Photonic Aftershocks with PSW
I recently (since the new MI event) started using an all Transphasic build with virtually no weapons power and very high Aux. It really increases the damage from the Sci abilities and I found it to be highly effective on large crowds of NPCs and PvP spam:
Fore:
Rapid Reload Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk XI
Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk XI [Acc]x3
Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk XI [Acc]x3
Aft:
Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk XI [Acc]x3
Breen Transphasic Cluster Torpedo
Omni-Directional Antiproton Beam Array [Acc] [Dmg] [Arc] (sub-system targeting ability is not power dependant)
All other items and personnel are the same except for:
Instead of Point Defense console,
Console - Universal - Isometric Charge
Tac Consoles:
x3 - [Console - Tactical - Transphasic Compressor Mk XII]
Lt Tac: THY1, TS2
Projectile Weapons Officer: chance to reduce recharge on torpedos.
All this is still a work in progress but the results are phenomenal.
Hitting GW3 spawning multiple anomalies, flying into a crowd, engaging TBR's that pull and then hitting a PSW with multiple shock waves is an incredible sight. Add in a Transphasic Torp spread, Isometric Charge bouncing around, and the Tetryon Warp plasma from the Yellowstone Runabouts or HY Plasma torps from Elite Scorpions,... it makes for quite a killing field with incredible crowd control.
Here is my build skill tree inculded (I welcome all critiques too):
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=ezrascivesta_0
My DOFF's are:
3 - Purple Damage Control Engineers (EPtX cooldown)
1 - Purple Gravimetric Scientist (Grav Well Aftershock)
1 - Purple Deflector Officer (Deflector Ability Cooldown)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
When I can finally afford my vesta for my science officer, I plan to run mine as mainly a torp/mine layer while using gravity well to trap opponnents. I'll have the 360 ap array so I can use the beam targeting, and keep a set of the aux cannons that way I can throw my power to aux/engines.
Should be an interesting setup.
Plan to have:
Front
180 quantum torp from the Regent(yes I haz assault refit, fun beam ship)
breen transphasic rapid reload torp(till i can get the voth anti proton torp)
aux cannons
Rear
Transphasic mines
breen cluster torp
360 AP array
Should be a fun time.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
I see what you did there : a ... Gravimetric Vesta ;-)
The problem with torps is that Kinetic damage in PvE kind of ... sucks.
There's that shield resistance ( even with 0,1% shield ) that reduces torps' damage, not to mention that every torp has got a cooldown and the best torp out there is very slow.
While beams fire all the time and , in the long run, are more damaging.
So ,since Kinetic damage is what it is , what you said about GW is interesting ... at full or half aux, GW1 or GW3 is not such a big deal, as FAW1 or FAW3 would be.
However, I don't see attack-focused science abilities that might effectively replace GW in PvE, because, anyway, GW is great for CC.
However, I see your point about energy balancing : you might want to keep aux higher than 75 in a Vesta, at least for the healing advantages coming from it, not just for the AMP bonus.