Everything in pvp has a counter. If you don't want these vapers...vaping you, build a ship to counter it. Don't expect to be 100% effective either. I have a very good anti vaper build and they still get me from time to time.
-TaylorSwift - PvPs most hated sci
-LindseyLohan - Under appreciated Rom Bug
-EmiliaClarke - Under construction engi recluse
I tended to think of the BO changes as a proactive nerf - because Cryptic knew what was coming. Could you imagine the 2x BO/3x BO with everything that's been added since? Heh...now that would be some complaining.
What Cryptic needs to do is remove the ability to trigger Elachi procs with Beam Overload and convert the Shield Bypass duty officer into a duty officer that decreases shield damage resistances. Lastly, toss on a 5 second shared cooldown between Beam Overload, Isometric Charge, Proton Barrage, Refracting Tetryon Cascade, Unstable Tetryon Lattice, and the Hirogen Tetryon Sniper Shot. Problem closed and solved, no more mega 1 second spike attacks without actually timing a Beam Overload + Torpedo High Yield strike against a target.
This guy threw literally over 70,000 damage with 1 single beam.
This guy literally did not.
In your mind, it went like this: two fighters walk to the center of the ring. One fighter throws one punch with superhuman strength which connects with the other fighter's jaw. The crowd roars, the other fighter staggers, wondering what could be his secret. Steroids? Crack? Robot?
In reality it went like this: two fighters eyeball each other from across the bar. It's on. But one fighter neglects to put the front two legs of his stool on the ground. Still leaning back at a jaunty angle, the other fighter kicks the stool out from under him so fast he doesn't even realize he's flat on his back on the floor. When the extremely average human fist connects with his jaw it seems so much worse than if he'd been on his feet protecting himself.
This guy literally did not, because he tractored you. 70K Anti-proton DBB BO3 crit against a held target? You got off light.
Am I right to assume the tick of EPTS in the log is the first? So you were in Ker'rat with un-hardened shields and no tractor immunity?
If you're going to cherry pick logs rather than posting an unedited vid to support your rant, next time don't leave in the stuff that wrecks your "argument."
Now, let me provide you with an argument that might hold some water. "Cryptic has done a TRIBBLE job of making core game mechanics accessible to the player base. Why don't they use the load screens to tell me how dangerous it is to be stopped dead in space instead of filling me in on Memory Beta near fanfic details of Captain Data? Maybe if everybody understood these mechanics PvP would be more accessible to the unwashed masses."
The question is do you think PVP is any good?, that is the question. I am not known for hax tools, so what other excuse are you going to spout for me?
There was a reason TSI and now unfortuntely the majority of Sad Pandas have left STO, go figure, if your too blind to notice this while stroking your epeen I rest my case.
Some of us wised up and left, some of you remain ignorant or at best prefer to pugstomp
I don't even know what you're talking about. I was replying to therealmt, not you.
And yes, I still think it's good. Could it be better? Yes, by a large margin. Not all PvP can be the best (StarCraft: BroodWar will never be dethroned, and especially not by STO). I do still find it fun though. Fun = good in my book.
Now, let me provide you with an argument that might hold some water. "Cryptic has done a TRIBBLE job of making core game mechanics accessible to the player base. Why don't they use the load screens to tell me how dangerous it is to be stopped dead in space instead of filling me in on Memory Beta near fanfic details of Captain Data? Maybe if everybody understood these mechanics PvP would be more accessible to the unwashed masses."
They used to but for whatever reason the only people that actually used it as a foundation were serious PvPers.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
i was going to address the op, then i realised that i am caring less and less about sto pvp. i seem to have crossed some sort of threshold...
i think you waited too long, cryptic.
What Cryptic needs to do is remove the ability to trigger Elachi procs with Beam Overload and convert the Shield Bypass duty officer into a duty officer that decreases shield damage resistances. Lastly, toss on a 5 second shared cooldown between Beam Overload, Isometric Charge, Proton Barrage, Refracting Tetryon Cascade, Unstable Tetryon Lattice, and the Hirogen Tetryon Sniper Shot. Problem closed and solved, no more mega 1 second spike attacks without actually timing a Beam Overload + Torpedo High Yield strike against a target.
Your alarmest response reeks of Soviet propaganda. I Pvp'd since Beta, actually leveled my first couple characters through PvP. Still have plenty of matches all night long 4 years later. What you should infer is that I think you should invest the time in being proficient in something rather than expect the game and everyone to change to suit your "casual style of play". It's not rocket science. Half your post is practically a troll thread on how bad it all is. Complete with wild claims of the end of PvP. Given Gozer's post you mentioned is 2 years old, I can reasonably say if you have time to dig up 2 year old irrelevant gloom and doom, you could be working on your build.
If you want everything the same kudos to you. Communism worked so well for the old USSR. You want to win, learn to play. Just like grinding dilithium, time equals profit. It doesn't take a master's degree to be good at this game's PvP.
For the record, even if cryptic changed the 90% of PvP, there would still be the elite, the learners and the casual criers begging for some developer to make it easier. No twisting of words required, sorry if life in an MMO doesn't always give you a victory medal for showing up with barely any work.
More hatred and name calling from the same guy. Is that all you have? Now I am a communist / troll eh? Haha!
We should go grind? No. It is a game. I do it for fun, not a job.
There is a huge difference between political systems vs equality of opponents in a GAME.
What?! I expect all players in monopoly to start with the same amount of money, chess players to start with the pieces in the same order, and checkers players to start with the same amount of pieces?! I must be a communist! How dare I think that you shouldn't have a clear advantage before we even start in a GAME? Hehe!
No, a person cannot have more pieces than another in checkers, nor do I feel a person should have more total character power than another in pvp in Star Trek Online. They can have a different build, but not more "build points," nor better gear. I guess I am in favor of letting players choose their builds, but equalized pvp.
Also notice that I opposed your IDEAS, not attacked you directly. Please don't do the same to me.
More hatred and name calling from the same guy. Is that all you have? Now I am a communist / troll eh? Haha!
We should go grind? No. It is a game. I do it for fun, not a job.
There is a huge difference between political systems vs equality of opponents in a GAME.
What?! I expect all players in monopoly to start with the same amount of money, chess players to start with the pieces in the same order, and checkers players to start with the same amount of pieces?! I must be a communist! How dare I think that you shouldn't have a clear advantage before we even start in a GAME? Hehe!
No, a person cannot have more pieces than another in checkers, nor do I feel a person should have more total character power than another in pvp in Star Trek Online. They can have a different build, but not more "build points," nor better gear. I guess I am in favor of letting players choose their builds, but equalized pvp.
Also notice that I opposed your IDEAS, not attacked you directly. Please don't do the same to me.
So you are still checking this thread? And you haven't responded to the fact that your own combat logs show your premise was flawed?
This thread reeks of the tale as old as time practice of getting killed in pvp and running to the boards with a tirade of how the game is flawed. The game is flawed, just not the way you think. Your log + your interpretation of your log reduce your credibility.
Moreover, there is too much healing in the game actually, so high spike damage actually is the only way to destroy an opponent.
Indeed. You are right. I am actually not so much complaining about high damage, nor high defense or healing though. The high damage is necessary to kill a high defense character as you said, and the high defense is necessary to survive a high offense character, so I can't really be critical of the people who are almost invincible either.
It is more like... the potential gap in power between players is MUCH too wide. They don't "mind the gap."
I don't like how the game effectively says, "Ok we are starting a 10v10 pvp match. There is your 10 people on 1 team and 10 on the other. It is balanced." Except it isn't because there is this one guy who is 3 times more powerful than anyone else here. Haha. That guy is going around like a juggernaut wrecking everyone.
I think matchmaking is all that is required. I would love to be able to go into a PVP match against players in the same ship that i use for PVE. This would require almost 0 changes to my build, and also open up a whole other facet on STO for me.
As it is, I don't spend enough time playing to get items and build quality of many other people, so why should I be expected to jump into an arena with a bunch of OP adversaries who can blow me away instantly, when i could jump into an arena with other players with similar build levels (which would also usually mean more evenly matched player skill levels) and enjoy myself, and leave the high enders to smack away at each other.
But then, those at the peak of the game play would have to be matched against others of the same ilk, and then there's no more easy one shot show boating to be had, hence all the hostility towards the idea from said players.
[Combat (Self)] J'Moda deals 86906 (84640) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to you with Dual Elachi Banks - Overload III.
And that one is fresh off a PvP match that just ended. Insta killed my Voth Palisade from full health and shields.
I propose the potential difference in how much more powerful one person can be compared to another person in pvp to be reduced. Actually, eliminated, would be ideal.
You know I'm the guy who did that and I do have to say, while my Vex character can vary day by day from doing really really well to just being a free target. It really just depends who's on your team and what your up against, and to your thing about no one can survive that... My eng has a cruiser and has only been successfully alpha'd twice, besides that it took either multiple people to kill it or one of those attack ships that are just ridiculously good and squishy but... I'm healing so how am I going to kill it :L One of the times the person even told me that he had to get me to use every ability I had and had to wait for every rep ability and use every console he had.
What I'm trying to say is, it is possible to make a cruiser that cant be alpha'd, just takes 3 neutroniums and some good piloting, no +damage resistance consoles or shield emitters needed. Ill admit its in the bastion but if you can pilot your ship right you can be very hard to kill, I honestly dont try to be unkillable in it i like to have some offense.
Ive seen escorts survive them which may even be easier because they have Attack Patern omega but what are you going to do.
Hmm. Now, I am actually going to agree with you here, but let me take this point by point.
Therefore, if the enemy team is geared to the teeth, and we aren't, we'll probably lose.
I would prefer if it were based more on who has more skill, or who is better with making a build with the same amount of points as everyone else rather than who has better stats.
"My eng has a cruiser and has only been successfully alpha'd twice..."
Yes, even my original post mentioned that defense can get way too high in the first 2 sentences. Your character that has only been successfully vaped twice is an example of the other end of the spectrum that I am also complaining about.
Again, please don't assume I am attacking YOU personally. Also, I think that in the CURRENT SYSTEM, both the high dps and survivability are BOTH necessary. (I am calling for a change to the current system though.)
Consider your 2 ships. Clearly your one ship's high dps would be necessary to fight your ship with the high survivability. The problem I am referring to is the power gap. Weaker players in between your 2 extremes is screwed.
"What I'm trying to say is, it is possible to make a cruiser that cant be alpha'd, just takes 3 neutroniums and some good piloting, no +damage resistance consoles or shield emitters needed."
When you blew me up, I had 4 neutronium armors, 3 field generators, on an obelisk carrier, which is one of the highest base hull ships in the game, and at the time I was hit, 34% damage reduction to shields, over 55% damage reduction to hull, 12,000 shields, and 61,000 hull. Engineering team x 2, Hazard Emitters, Auxiliary to Structural, Emergency power to shields x 2, Science Team x 2. Still died.
I didn't actually die from that 1 blast though. I would say my ship is an example of one of the ships that should not be able to be that defensive. I also have a little ship that can vape almost as hard as yours. That probably shouldn't be allowed either.
Yes, I am shooting myself in the foot for saying that. Again, I am not being critical of any 1 person. I am also guilty of the same things that I am saying should not be allowed because in the current system those builds are the best. They are necessary. I am blaming the game developers for allowing this nonsense to continue. I am interested in GAME BALANCE, not making ME personally more powerful, while suppressing everyone else. (Not that I am accusing you of anything either. It is just the specific example we are using.)
In your mind, it went like this: two fighters walk to the center of the ring. One fighter throws one punch with superhuman strength which connects with the other fighter's jaw. The crowd roars, the other fighter staggers, wondering what could be his secret. Steroids? Crack? Robot?
In reality it went like this: two fighters eyeball each other from across the bar. It's on. But one fighter neglects to put the front two legs of his stool on the ground. Still leaning back at a jaunty angle, the other fighter kicks the stool out from under him so fast he doesn't even realize he's flat on his back on the floor. When the extremely average human fist connects with his jaw it seems so much worse than if he'd been on his feet protecting himself.
This guy literally did not, because he tractored you. 70K Anti-proton DBB BO3 crit against a held target? You got off light.
Am I right to assume the tick of EPTS in the log is the first? So you were in Ker'rat with un-hardened shields and no tractor immunity?
If you're going to cherry pick logs rather than posting an unedited vid to support your rant, next time don't leave in the stuff that wrecks your "argument."
Now, let me provide you with an argument that might hold some water. "Cryptic has done a TRIBBLE job of making core game mechanics accessible to the player base. Why don't they use the load screens to tell me how dangerous it is to be stopped dead in space instead of filling me in on Memory Beta near fanfic details of Captain Data? Maybe if everybody understood these mechanics PvP would be more accessible to the unwashed masses."
Yes. He LITERALLY did shoot me for over 70k with one beam attack. You are simply wrong, and there is the screen shot to prove it. Your "2-fighters in the ring argument" made no sense to me. I also posted my stats and shield status at the time in this post for the record. It still happened.
Ok, so he used a tractor beam. So what? Tractor beam does not raise the amount of damage I take. It only reduces my defense, which makes him more likely to hit, but if he had hit me without the tractor beam going, it would have done the exact same amount of damage, so that makes no difference.
Also, I had 2 Emergency Power to Shields, so my shields were actually hardened. I rotate them, but even if I didn't, I don't see how that makes any difference regarding the point I am making since the purpose of a vape build is to decloak and obliterate your opponent BEFORE they have a chance to do anything, which is one of the main points I am complaining about.
Post an UNEDITED vid?! That is unnecessary. Nothing could ever be proven to chlamidiot no matter what. chlamidiot could argue with the statement that "the earth is round."
Yes. He LITERALLY did shoot me for over 70k with one beam attack. You are simply wrong, and there is the screen shot to prove it. Your "2-fighters in the ring argument" made no sense to me. I also posted my stats and shield status at the time in this post for the record. It still happened.
Ok, so he used a tractor beam. So what? Tractor beam does not raise the amount of damage I take. It only reduces my defense, which makes him more likely to hit, but if he had hit me without the tractor beam going, it would have done the exact same amount of damage, so that makes no difference.
Also, I had 2 Emergency Power to Shields, so my shields were actually hardened. I rotate them, but even if I didn't, I don't see how that makes any difference regarding the point I am making since the purpose of a vape build is to decloak and obliterate your opponent BEFORE they have a chance to do anything, which is one of the main points I am complaining about.
Post an UNEDITED vid?! That is unnecessary. Nothing could ever be proven to chlamidiot no matter what. chlamidiot could argue with the statement that "the earth is round."
Just for the sake of clarity, Tractor Beam drops your defense to almost zero, resulting in higher crit chance and crit severity from accuracy overflow, boosting the damage done, as that shot was a critical hit. Those are antiproton weapons, so add even more crit severity.
That's the reason for the analogy.
Furthermore, the 70K figure in the screenshot is base damage, IIRC. His shot actually did about 39K to you.
The problem with PvP in STO is that there IS PvP in STO. Let's face it, the game is not designed for it. There are far too many abilities and way too much dps to have a successful PvP arena. There's always going to be groups of players who's only focus is max damage, at any cost, and that's where this game falls far short. PvP games have limits and strict presets on just how much damage. An be done and what you can take with you.
For example. The newest cod games have a point system that governs what you can use. There's no way to squeeze more damage out of it, and no way to completely outclass others. You have to choose whether to be offensive or defensive, long range combat or high speed close quarters. You can't have the best of everything and be able to do everything. This is balance, and its what makes a game good for pvp. This is something STO severely lacks. Instead, we have the same exact abilities in PvP that we do everywhere else. Nothing is governed, and nothing is restricted. Andbpremade teams are always given a huge advantage over pugs because of this. We don't have so much as a premade queue separate from a pug queue. Its rather amazingly pathetic that such an oversight exists. Even more so that players with too much time on their hands have to take full advantage of this fact and gang up on casual players.
Just for the sake of clarity, Tractor Beam drops your defense to almost zero, resulting in higher crit chance and crit severity from accuracy overflow, boosting the damage done, as that shot was a critical hit. Those are antiproton weapons, so add even more crit severity.
That's the reason for the analogy.
Furthermore, the 70K figure in the screenshot is base damage, IIRC. His shot actually did about 39K to you.
Yes, that is all true, but it still happened. I was referring to the base damage as an example of how the extremes of what people can throw and what other people can shrug off are both way too high. And again, I will point to my previous statement: "I don't see how that makes any difference regarding the point I am making since the purpose of a vape build is to decloak and obliterate your opponent BEFORE they have a chance to do anything, which is one of the main points I am complaining about." I didn't have time to finish activating all my defenses before I was dead despite the fact that I have a separate hotkey just for defenses that will activate them as fast as the game will allow. You don't have time to get a polarize hull up when someone just says, "BLAM! Yer dead!"
But as you said... just for clarity. Very well.
By the way, is that poll you were talking about conducting done yet? I am anxious to read the results.
Anyways, splitting hairs trying to reduce the validity of the screenshot aside... There are people on top of the power pyramid. Those people are going to win way more often than they lose. They explain it by pointing out that they still lose SOMETIMES, and that they only win more often than they lose because they are soooo skillful - that it is not because their gear is way better than most the people they destroy. They also neglect to mention that when they do lose, it is often only because they were just caught off guard, or completely outnumbered, but the fact that they lose once in a while is proof that it is balanced.
Obviously, many of those people are going to say, "What? I don't see any problem with the way things are." We should always consider whether our statements are biased.
I am basically for equalized pvp, but still allowing you to have the build / ship / abilities you want. Probably not the duty officers, and certainly, the gear should be equalized bringing low people up.
So there should be no difference between Lifers and F2Pers?
I really believe this game started turning for the worst when PWE took over and had Cryptic make a Free to Play model
Correct, I believe this, or at least no more than a 20% maximum power difference.
Consider the alternative: "Lifers should have an advantage in pvp vs F2Pers. The battlefield should be slanted in their favor. Pay to win."
Hmm. I wonder if this next statement would get less backlash:
"I LOVE vaping / alpha striking. It is the best thing to ever happen to pvp. I want no opponent to last longer than 5 seconds against me. I am "hardcore" and don't want anyone to think of me as "casual" because that is a dirty word. Anything being easier, equalized or more fair is being more "casual." I want more people to pvp because I want more victims, but the pvp community being underpopulated is a price I am willing to pay to stay on top. I spent years getting to the point where I am more powerful than most other people, and I want to keep it that way. Making it easier for other people to compete so that the pvp community grows again is a bad idea. Anyone who wants to compete with me should have to trudge through all the crud I had to in order to gain my power. The game was worse in my day. Forget the idea that it is a game, and it should be fun. I had it hard, so new players should too even though it wouldn't really affect me in any way except that I have my 85% win ratio to think about in pvp! I think that more than 50% of the reason I am so powerful ISN'T mostly because because I have spent 4 years to nickel and dime my stats up, and get better gear. It is because I am so much more skillful than everyone else. *wink* *wink* Of course, if I am so skillful, then equalizing everyone wouldn't actually affect me at all, but still... don't do it."
Now just consider... that IS the general mentality (more or less) of how a good number of people think. They would never admit it because saying it like that makes it obvious how unfair it is though. I am not saying anyone here thinks that way, but I feel equalized pvp would take us away from that statement. Hmm. Maybe I should start a "How do you guys feel about equalized pvp?" thread.
The problem with PvP in STO is that there IS PvP in STO. Let's face it, the game is not designed for it. There are far too many abilities and way too much dps to have a successful PvP arena. There's always going to be groups of players who's only focus is max damage, at any cost, and that's where this game falls far short. PvP games have limits and strict presets on just how much damage. An be done and what you can take with you.
For example. The newest cod games have a point system that governs what you can use. There's no way to squeeze more damage out of it, and no way to completely outclass others. You have to choose whether to be offensive or defensive, long range combat or high speed close quarters. You can't have the best of everything and be able to do everything. This is balance, and its what makes a game good for pvp. This is something STO severely lacks. Instead, we have the same exact abilities in PvP that we do everywhere else. Nothing is governed, and nothing is restricted. Andbpremade teams are always given a huge advantage over pugs because of this. We don't have so much as a premade queue separate from a pug queue. Its rather amazingly pathetic that such an oversight exists. Even more so that players with too much time on their hands have to take full advantage of this fact and gang up on casual players.
ok im just gona come out and say it the biggest problem with sto pvp is its venomous community that cant get beat with out some one "hacking/cheating or using op stuff" every tournament there has ever been has ended in one team ******** about another and how unfair it was......
if you are getting beat and not winning games get over it and get better.....
its not that hard but you need to put the effort in to know exactly what your opponent is doing and how to beat it not just spam your ability's and hope you get a kill......
9 times out of ten i "vape" my opponent because im looking for the opening in there epts that that spam....
I didn't have time to finish activating all my defenses before I was dead despite the fact that I have a separate hotkey just for defenses that will activate them as fast as the game will allow. You don't have time to get a polarize hull up when someone just says, "BLAM! Yer dead!"
Um...saying you don't have time to pop PH is not the same as saying you "don't have time to finish activating all my defenses"...
PH sports I believe the typical 0.5s Activation delay, figure there's going to be at least another 0.5s or more that comes about from potential input lag. Blah, blah, blah - bunch of mechanics and timing and stuff...
Thing is, are you thinking you're hitting the PH to break the Tractor so it won't hit as hard? Or are you doing it to buff you damage resistance? Cause sure, you'll break the Tractor if you're still alive - but the to-hit rolls for what's going to be hitting you have already been made. It's not going to help - outside of buffing your damage resistance - with that.
What's your next step? Get away? Heal? If you just try to get away, you're likely leaving yourself exposed. If you just try to heal, you're just sitting there.
But in the end, this is all taking part in the discussion too late. Why did they decide to attack you at the point that they did, eh? Did you have an exploitable gap in your buff cycle that they have been watching? So they knew when to hit you? Did you need to have that gap? Were you overbuffing and not holding anything in reserve? Were you listening to what was going on around you? Did you hear buffs and not see anybody that would account for them? Were you alone? How did you get to the point that they picked you and picked that moment to attack you?
Don't get me wrong, damage in the game is ludicrous - but that's partially just because healing and damage resistance/reduction are ludicrous. All sorts of ludicrous going on...without those epic roll of the dice mega hits; well - who would actually get blown up these days? Ever watched a group of folks going at it in Ker'rat and nobody's dying? Then boom - somebody dies? Some folks will say it was their epic timing - but I'd ask - the fight's been going on long enough that their epic timing had nothing to do with it before when the target didn't die. It's just a series of random procs, random crit rolls, and somebody dies. Note, I said that's with folks going at it for a period of time. Folks disappear in the blink of the eye all the time because of how they built their ship, not paying attention, being predictable.
I'm not saying any of this as a vaper. I couldn't decloak kill anybody if they were afk grabbing a sandwich...it's from years of trying to pay attention to how I died, reviewing things when I wasn't sure how I died, and even asking folks about what might have caused that death. It's like the old Thissler vids - I point to them not as how to vape/ambush - but how to survive them...don't make the mistakes the targets in the vids make.
And in the end, you have to accept that there is only so much you can do on your own...have friends, you watch their back, they watch your back...and well...tends to go better for everybody except the folks trying to kill you. Whether you're in the queues or Ker'rat, it's still a team game...
Yes, that is all true, but it still happened. I was referring to the base damage as an example of how the extremes of what people can throw and what other people can shrug off are both way too high. And again, I will point to my previous statement: "I don't see how that makes any difference regarding the point I am making since the purpose of a vape build is to decloak and obliterate your opponent BEFORE they have a chance to do anything, which is one of the main points I am complaining about." I didn't have time to finish activating all my defenses before I was dead despite the fact that I have a separate hotkey just for defenses that will activate them as fast as the game will allow. You don't have time to get a polarize hull up when someone just says, "BLAM! Yer dead!"
But as you said... just for clarity. Very well.
By the way, is that poll you were talking about conducting done yet? I am anxious to read the results.
Okay then. It was just because your previous post made it seem like the Tractor Beam would not make any difference to the damage dealt.
On the poll, I'll be finishing up in about 2 days.
Indeed. You are right. I am actually not so much complaining about high damage, nor high defense or healing though. The high damage is necessary to kill a high defense character as you said, and the high defense is necessary to survive a high offense character, so I can't really be critical of the people who are almost invincible either.
It is more like... the potential gap in power between players is MUCH too wide. They don't "mind the gap."
I don't like how the game effectively says, "Ok we are starting a 10v10 pvp match. There is your 10 people on 1 team and 10 on the other. It is balanced." Except it isn't because there is this one guy who is 3 times more powerful than anyone else here. Haha. That guy is going around like a juggernaut wrecking everyone.
Yeah. Matchmaking is another way to do it.
I propose the potential difference in how much more powerful one person can be compared to another person in pvp to be reduced. Actually, eliminated, would be ideal.
Hmm. Now, I am actually going to agree with you here, but let me take this point by point.
Therefore, if my team is geared to the teeth, I'll probably win even if I am not.
Therefore, if the enemy team is geared to the teeth, and we aren't, we'll probably lose.
I would prefer if it were based more on who has more skill, or who is better with making a build with the same amount of points as everyone else rather than who has better stats.
Yes, even my original post mentioned that defense can get way too high in the first 2 sentences. Your character that has only been successfully vaped twice is an example of the other end of the spectrum that I am also complaining about.
Again, please don't assume I am attacking YOU personally. Also, I think that in the CURRENT SYSTEM, both the high dps and survivability are BOTH necessary. (I am calling for a change to the current system though.)
Consider your 2 ships. Clearly your one ship's high dps would be necessary to fight your ship with the high survivability. The problem I am referring to is the power gap. Weaker players in between your 2 extremes is screwed.
When you blew me up, I had 4 neutronium armors, 3 field generators, on an obelisk carrier, which is one of the highest base hull ships in the game, and at the time I was hit, 34% damage reduction to shields, over 55% damage reduction to hull, 12,000 shields, and 61,000 hull. Engineering team x 2, Hazard Emitters, Auxiliary to Structural, Emergency power to shields x 2, Science Team x 2. Still died.
I didn't actually die from that 1 blast though. I would say my ship is an example of one of the ships that should not be able to be that defensive. I also have a little ship that can vape almost as hard as yours. That probably shouldn't be allowed either.
Yes, I am shooting myself in the foot for saying that. Again, I am not being critical of any 1 person. I am also guilty of the same things that I am saying should not be allowed because in the current system those builds are the best. They are necessary. I am blaming the game developers for allowing this nonsense to continue. I am interested in GAME BALANCE, not making ME personally more powerful, while suppressing everyone else. (Not that I am accusing you of anything either. It is just the specific example we are using.)
Yes. He LITERALLY did shoot me for over 70k with one beam attack. You are simply wrong, and there is the screen shot to prove it. Your "2-fighters in the ring argument" made no sense to me. I also posted my stats and shield status at the time in this post for the record. It still happened.
Ok, so he used a tractor beam. So what? Tractor beam does not raise the amount of damage I take. It only reduces my defense, which makes him more likely to hit, but if he had hit me without the tractor beam going, it would have done the exact same amount of damage, so that makes no difference.
Also, I had 2 Emergency Power to Shields, so my shields were actually hardened. I rotate them, but even if I didn't, I don't see how that makes any difference regarding the point I am making since the purpose of a vape build is to decloak and obliterate your opponent BEFORE they have a chance to do anything, which is one of the main points I am complaining about.
Post an UNEDITED vid?! That is unnecessary. Nothing could ever be proven to chlamidiot no matter what. chlamidiot could argue with the statement that "the earth is round."
I'm just going to throw this out there... have you ever considered using a NEUTRONIUM?!?!? my escorts can use 2, my cruisers usually only use three and that's about it. Even with 3 my cruiser has only been successfully alpha'd 3 times, twice the person has even told me that it took everything they had :L. Now imagine adding along side this field generators (which I'm not even using)? Ok now the average cruiser that's 50% resistance and idk 16-20k shields... throw in tac team. That's 80k shields to get through. Granted your not going to be alphaed with tac team by anyone who knows what they are doing... but that has added to your survival. This is not even including shield damage resistance though I have absolutly no idea how this works, I'd assume that its the same as hull damage resistance and caps at 75%.
The funny thing is the person posting this was using an oblisk. That is not going to be putting out a tremendous amount of damage so the only other option is to tank. I do believe those have a 1.1 shield modifier so you know this should be a really easy thing to counter.
A good cruiser should also always have up Emergency Power to Shields... this is really not negotiable unless your one of those dps cruisers but you know... that's another story. So really all it takes is idk maybe 1 million EC and you can survive most alphas...
Before someone yells at me saying: "But Vex, your eng is in a Bastion" lets think of it this way... Romulan ships don't make the best tanks in the first place but look at the fleet Ha'apax... high hull, high shields, if you want to pvp as a Romulan tank in a Romulan ship you should be using this anyways.
Try a set up like this: (Just going to put what matters)
Escort: Attack Patern Omega!!!!!
Cruiser: 3 Neutroniums, 2 Field Generators, Eng team 3, Emergency Power to shields 1, Reverse shield polarity 1...
If you want to get fancy thrown in a polarize hull somewhere. The screams to nerf those who can do damage I get but the screams are usually coming from someone who is not equiped to counter it. Not trying to be rude but just a little bit of investment will make you start rocking.
I can be convinced. There's plenty of examples of me changing my mind and admitting I'm wrong, though you might have to check the archives under a different handle.
Sometimes ad hominem is mean spirited, sometimes it's to cover up when one side has a weak argument, and sometimes it's relevant.
You are not qualified to espouse any changes to game mechanics. Here are some reasons why:
You've got a basic lack of understanding of game fundamentals.
You still have the shiney newbness that makes you believe that some players are invincible. That's been the belief of new players since the dawn of STO pvp. It wears off because they learn to play, or they leave. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but it does tell me that you are unqualified to be making arguments about "game balance.")
You talk about "game balance" like it's a place to go. Like once you get there you'll slam a flagpole in the ground and heave a sigh of relief.
Lots more to say, but instead I'll just suggest you read and re-read virusdancer's last post for the high level of truthiness he's supplying. Especially the part about why you made it into somebody's target selection. Also play some more, hopefully learning to do so in the process.
I'm just going to throw this out there... have you ever considered using a NEUTRONIUM?!?!? my escorts can use 2, my cruisers usually only use three and that's about it. Even with 3 my cruiser has only been successfully alpha'd 3 times, twice the person has even told me that it took everything they had :L. Now imagine adding along side this field generators (which I'm not even using)? Ok now the average cruiser that's 50% resistance and idk 16-20k shields... throw in tac team. That's 80k shields to get through.
I'm just going to throw this out there... Have you ever considered reading the post you just quoted? As I said, I was using 4 neutroniums and 3 field generators at the time you blew me up.
For clarity, that was 12,000 shields per facing obviously, and yes tac team was running. 12,000x4 would be about 48,000, but if I were using a covariant sheild with [cap]x3 instead of my resilient shield for the 5% less bleed through, then yeah I might be able to get it that high.
Also, tac team does not necessarily mean that you get to add all shield facings together to assume that all 4 must be reduced to 0 before you get killed. Sure tac team redistributes them fast, but not as fast as one single giant 70k damage blast. People die all the time with tac team going and most of their shields still up, so saying it is 80k shields to get through is not entirely accurate. I see what you mean though. Yes tac team helps a lot. Fantastic skill. I have it x2. I rotate them.
Why are you asking me if I use neutroniums and field generators, when I clearly posted that I did in the very post you quoted before you even asked the question?
I keep getting all this criticism from different people assuming that I am a newbie and I am obviously not smart enough to know how to build a ship. I keep pointing out that I actually was doing everything they suggest I should have done, and Vex STILL did that much damage.
I feel that bolsters my point.
Again, I am definitely NOT suggesting that burst damage be nerfed without defense being nerfed too. The difference between the normal players' and top end pvpers' offense / defense power gap is too wide. We need to mind the gap. Right now the burst damage is the only thing that can get through the mega defense people, so I am not criticizing Vex for having a ship that can kill me. If you couldn't do that... you would have never killed me, so indeed, it was warranted and needed.
I am suggesting pvp would probably be considerably more fun if vape-ing were removed, and defense were reduced to the point where you don't have to vape / alpha strike to kill a person even if they are defense based. I think it would be better if you can whittle people down steadily, but slowly enough that they have chances to respond to what you are doing, fight back, and maybe win. Again... emphasis on defense being nerfed to the point where that extra time is NOT going to let them become almost unkillable to you. If they chose to activate defense and repairs, it would just buy them a little more time.
I believe that would be an excellent change. Others in this discussion have also posted excellent ideas on what could be done regarding matchmaking, cooldown alteration, starting cooldowns on other abilities to control how much damage can be burst out all at once, equalized pvp, and a variety of other good options.
Despite some bickering, as the internet will always have, I think we have come up with some good ideas here if the devs want to read about it. I hope it isn't premature to declare a successful thread.
I'm just going to throw this out there... have you ever considered using a NEUTRONIUM?!?!? my escorts can use 2, my cruisers usually only use three and that's about it. Even with 3 my cruiser has only been successfully alpha'd 3 times, twice the person has even told me that it took everything they had :L. Now imagine adding along side this field generators (which I'm not even using)? Ok now the average cruiser that's 50% resistance and idk 16-20k shields... throw in tac team. That's 80k shields to get through. Granted your not going to be alphaed with tac team by anyone who knows what they are doing... but that has added to your survival. This is not even including shield damage resistance though I have absolutly no idea how this works, I'd assume that its the same as hull damage resistance and caps at 75%.
The funny thing is the person posting this was using an oblisk. That is not going to be putting out a tremendous amount of damage so the only other option is to tank. I do believe those have a 1.1 shield modifier so you know this should be a really easy thing to counter.
A good cruiser should also always have up Emergency Power to Shields... this is really not negotiable unless your one of those dps cruisers but you know... that's another story. So really all it takes is idk maybe 1 million EC and you can survive most alphas...
Before someone yells at me saying: "But Vex, your eng is in a Bastion" lets think of it this way... Romulan ships don't make the best tanks in the first place but look at the fleet Ha'apax... high hull, high shields, if you want to pvp as a Romulan tank in a Romulan ship you should be using this anyways.
Try a set up like this: (Just going to put what matters)
Escort: Attack Patern Omega!!!!!
Cruiser: 3 Neutroniums, 2 Field Generators, Eng team 3, Emergency Power to shields 1, Reverse shield polarity 1...
If you want to get fancy thrown in a polarize hull somewhere. The screams to nerf those who can do damage I get but the screams are usually coming from someone who is not equiped to counter it. Not trying to be rude but just a little bit of investment will make you start rocking.
The argument isn't about if it CAN be countered. I can take my galaxy or my odyssey to the dyson sphere contested zone and continuously tank through and destroy voth ships without pause. So obviously dps and defense ability are equal. Its about the fact that they are both far too high to have a good PvP system. A player with a basic setup (evenly distributed tac, eng, and sci) and mk10 white gear has no chance against a player fully specced into 1 of the 3 careers and with fleet gear. This was evident when I was challenged to a duel by a defiant. Not only did my galaxy take zero hull damage from his attacks, but my phaser beam overload tore right through his shields and my high yield photon torpedo attack cratered his hull. Not only should this not have happened, he should have been able to slowly whittle down my shields and hull while I did the same. In the end he gave up and flew in circles until I killed him. I shudder to think what would have happened to him against a scimitar or other high dps ship.
How much rant in this thread :eek:
Seriously stop drinking coffee.
To the one complaining about being pwned while running field gens, neutronium and blablabla, you definitely don't know what the heck you're talking about and QQing about vape. I can see your friend list empty.
getting angry for such reasons and trying to look like a total pro in showcasing all your resists? There's nothing worse to prove your lack of skills than ranting on forums.
Nothing is wrong.Being blind every 3 seconds is cool,i even think I'll remove a eye ball to be blind in real life too cuz why not Mr Miagy can do it why not me ,having to fight t8 ships aka romulan ships (built in romulan jump console with AoE sensors BS ...totally not broken) with normal ships is also cool ,having to fight with ingame effects and laggy UI...most awesome thing ever.
To the one complaining about being pwned while running field gens, neutronium and blablabla, you definitely don't know what the heck you're talking about and QQing about vape. I can see your friend list empty.
but thats true...I can avoid being vaped if I don't get stuck in invisible plasma/theta /etc or if I dont get vaped in the first 3 seconds when I do pvp bootcamp with my pug.Also normaly vapers should exist in a game in which the UI works...I don't see that happening....40 clicks for 1 rsp ,200 for 1 tt which also needs 1s to activate....my main enemy is the game then the vaper.
Also I dont have any friends cuz I'm antisocial :rolleyes:
The game engine cannot keep up with all the TRIBBLE that can be brought bear in a match. the other night when I was pvping and I got into a match that had team spamming GW/TR/TBM/TBR/Pets when I died my ship never exploded on my screen it almost looked like it was froze there. That same match I had to click APA 10 times to get it to activate while cloaked. :rolleyes: This game has such poor performance that really reaction time is an engagement to engagement thing. Same match I went to alpha and was watching the targets buff bar, the screen jumped and the guy went from no buffs to at least 6 in 1 second.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
Comments
-LindseyLohan - Under appreciated Rom Bug
-EmiliaClarke - Under construction engi recluse
What Cryptic needs to do is remove the ability to trigger Elachi procs with Beam Overload and convert the Shield Bypass duty officer into a duty officer that decreases shield damage resistances. Lastly, toss on a 5 second shared cooldown between Beam Overload, Isometric Charge, Proton Barrage, Refracting Tetryon Cascade, Unstable Tetryon Lattice, and the Hirogen Tetryon Sniper Shot. Problem closed and solved, no more mega 1 second spike attacks without actually timing a Beam Overload + Torpedo High Yield strike against a target.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
This guy literally did not.
In your mind, it went like this: two fighters walk to the center of the ring. One fighter throws one punch with superhuman strength which connects with the other fighter's jaw. The crowd roars, the other fighter staggers, wondering what could be his secret. Steroids? Crack? Robot?
In reality it went like this: two fighters eyeball each other from across the bar. It's on. But one fighter neglects to put the front two legs of his stool on the ground. Still leaning back at a jaunty angle, the other fighter kicks the stool out from under him so fast he doesn't even realize he's flat on his back on the floor. When the extremely average human fist connects with his jaw it seems so much worse than if he'd been on his feet protecting himself.
This guy literally did not, because he tractored you. 70K Anti-proton DBB BO3 crit against a held target? You got off light.
Am I right to assume the tick of EPTS in the log is the first? So you were in Ker'rat with un-hardened shields and no tractor immunity?
If you're going to cherry pick logs rather than posting an unedited vid to support your rant, next time don't leave in the stuff that wrecks your "argument."
Now, let me provide you with an argument that might hold some water. "Cryptic has done a TRIBBLE job of making core game mechanics accessible to the player base. Why don't they use the load screens to tell me how dangerous it is to be stopped dead in space instead of filling me in on Memory Beta near fanfic details of Captain Data? Maybe if everybody understood these mechanics PvP would be more accessible to the unwashed masses."
I don't even know what you're talking about. I was replying to therealmt, not you.
And yes, I still think it's good. Could it be better? Yes, by a large margin. Not all PvP can be the best (StarCraft: BroodWar will never be dethroned, and especially not by STO). I do still find it fun though. Fun = good in my book.
@DevolvedOne
They used to but for whatever reason the only people that actually used it as a foundation were serious PvPers.
i think you waited too long, cryptic.
free jkname
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I was there, I was there! :cool:
We had epic fun, 10vs10 "primate" at 90 kills, two times. Had great time with both my Scimi and Avenger
I strongly recommend people to participate in such matches and organize them ad well.
I do not use the shield penetration doff on my vape setup
3 batt doffs to buff damage,
1 batt cooldown,
2 tac team reduction
Now this is a good idea.
More hatred and name calling from the same guy. Is that all you have? Now I am a communist / troll eh? Haha!
We should go grind? No. It is a game. I do it for fun, not a job.
There is a huge difference between political systems vs equality of opponents in a GAME.
What?! I expect all players in monopoly to start with the same amount of money, chess players to start with the pieces in the same order, and checkers players to start with the same amount of pieces?! I must be a communist! How dare I think that you shouldn't have a clear advantage before we even start in a GAME? Hehe!
No, a person cannot have more pieces than another in checkers, nor do I feel a person should have more total character power than another in pvp in Star Trek Online. They can have a different build, but not more "build points," nor better gear. I guess I am in favor of letting players choose their builds, but equalized pvp.
Also notice that I opposed your IDEAS, not attacked you directly. Please don't do the same to me.
So you are still checking this thread? And you haven't responded to the fact that your own combat logs show your premise was flawed?
This thread reeks of the tale as old as time practice of getting killed in pvp and running to the boards with a tirade of how the game is flawed. The game is flawed, just not the way you think. Your log + your interpretation of your log reduce your credibility.
Indeed. You are right. I am actually not so much complaining about high damage, nor high defense or healing though. The high damage is necessary to kill a high defense character as you said, and the high defense is necessary to survive a high offense character, so I can't really be critical of the people who are almost invincible either.
It is more like... the potential gap in power between players is MUCH too wide. They don't "mind the gap."
I don't like how the game effectively says, "Ok we are starting a 10v10 pvp match. There is your 10 people on 1 team and 10 on the other. It is balanced." Except it isn't because there is this one guy who is 3 times more powerful than anyone else here. Haha. That guy is going around like a juggernaut wrecking everyone.
Yeah. Matchmaking is another way to do it.
I propose the potential difference in how much more powerful one person can be compared to another person in pvp to be reduced. Actually, eliminated, would be ideal.
Hmm. Now, I am actually going to agree with you here, but let me take this point by point.
Therefore, if my team is geared to the teeth, I'll probably win even if I am not.
Therefore, if the enemy team is geared to the teeth, and we aren't, we'll probably lose.
I would prefer if it were based more on who has more skill, or who is better with making a build with the same amount of points as everyone else rather than who has better stats.
Yes, even my original post mentioned that defense can get way too high in the first 2 sentences. Your character that has only been successfully vaped twice is an example of the other end of the spectrum that I am also complaining about.
Again, please don't assume I am attacking YOU personally. Also, I think that in the CURRENT SYSTEM, both the high dps and survivability are BOTH necessary. (I am calling for a change to the current system though.)
Consider your 2 ships. Clearly your one ship's high dps would be necessary to fight your ship with the high survivability. The problem I am referring to is the power gap. Weaker players in between your 2 extremes is screwed.
When you blew me up, I had 4 neutronium armors, 3 field generators, on an obelisk carrier, which is one of the highest base hull ships in the game, and at the time I was hit, 34% damage reduction to shields, over 55% damage reduction to hull, 12,000 shields, and 61,000 hull. Engineering team x 2, Hazard Emitters, Auxiliary to Structural, Emergency power to shields x 2, Science Team x 2. Still died.
I didn't actually die from that 1 blast though. I would say my ship is an example of one of the ships that should not be able to be that defensive. I also have a little ship that can vape almost as hard as yours. That probably shouldn't be allowed either.
Yes, I am shooting myself in the foot for saying that. Again, I am not being critical of any 1 person. I am also guilty of the same things that I am saying should not be allowed because in the current system those builds are the best. They are necessary. I am blaming the game developers for allowing this nonsense to continue. I am interested in GAME BALANCE, not making ME personally more powerful, while suppressing everyone else. (Not that I am accusing you of anything either. It is just the specific example we are using.)
Yes. He LITERALLY did shoot me for over 70k with one beam attack. You are simply wrong, and there is the screen shot to prove it. Your "2-fighters in the ring argument" made no sense to me. I also posted my stats and shield status at the time in this post for the record. It still happened.
Ok, so he used a tractor beam. So what? Tractor beam does not raise the amount of damage I take. It only reduces my defense, which makes him more likely to hit, but if he had hit me without the tractor beam going, it would have done the exact same amount of damage, so that makes no difference.
Also, I had 2 Emergency Power to Shields, so my shields were actually hardened. I rotate them, but even if I didn't, I don't see how that makes any difference regarding the point I am making since the purpose of a vape build is to decloak and obliterate your opponent BEFORE they have a chance to do anything, which is one of the main points I am complaining about.
Post an UNEDITED vid?! That is unnecessary. Nothing could ever be proven to chlamidiot no matter what. chlamidiot could argue with the statement that "the earth is round."
Just for the sake of clarity, Tractor Beam drops your defense to almost zero, resulting in higher crit chance and crit severity from accuracy overflow, boosting the damage done, as that shot was a critical hit. Those are antiproton weapons, so add even more crit severity.
That's the reason for the analogy.
Furthermore, the 70K figure in the screenshot is base damage, IIRC. His shot actually did about 39K to you.
For example. The newest cod games have a point system that governs what you can use. There's no way to squeeze more damage out of it, and no way to completely outclass others. You have to choose whether to be offensive or defensive, long range combat or high speed close quarters. You can't have the best of everything and be able to do everything. This is balance, and its what makes a game good for pvp. This is something STO severely lacks. Instead, we have the same exact abilities in PvP that we do everywhere else. Nothing is governed, and nothing is restricted. Andbpremade teams are always given a huge advantage over pugs because of this. We don't have so much as a premade queue separate from a pug queue. Its rather amazingly pathetic that such an oversight exists. Even more so that players with too much time on their hands have to take full advantage of this fact and gang up on casual players.
Yes, that is all true, but it still happened. I was referring to the base damage as an example of how the extremes of what people can throw and what other people can shrug off are both way too high. And again, I will point to my previous statement: "I don't see how that makes any difference regarding the point I am making since the purpose of a vape build is to decloak and obliterate your opponent BEFORE they have a chance to do anything, which is one of the main points I am complaining about." I didn't have time to finish activating all my defenses before I was dead despite the fact that I have a separate hotkey just for defenses that will activate them as fast as the game will allow. You don't have time to get a polarize hull up when someone just says, "BLAM! Yer dead!"
But as you said... just for clarity. Very well.
By the way, is that poll you were talking about conducting done yet? I am anxious to read the results.
Anyways, splitting hairs trying to reduce the validity of the screenshot aside... There are people on top of the power pyramid. Those people are going to win way more often than they lose. They explain it by pointing out that they still lose SOMETIMES, and that they only win more often than they lose because they are soooo skillful - that it is not because their gear is way better than most the people they destroy. They also neglect to mention that when they do lose, it is often only because they were just caught off guard, or completely outnumbered, but the fact that they lose once in a while is proof that it is balanced.
Obviously, many of those people are going to say, "What? I don't see any problem with the way things are." We should always consider whether our statements are biased.
I am basically for equalized pvp, but still allowing you to have the build / ship / abilities you want. Probably not the duty officers, and certainly, the gear should be equalized bringing low people up.
Correct, I believe this, or at least no more than a 20% maximum power difference.
Consider the alternative: "Lifers should have an advantage in pvp vs F2Pers. The battlefield should be slanted in their favor. Pay to win."
Hmm. I wonder if this next statement would get less backlash:
"I LOVE vaping / alpha striking. It is the best thing to ever happen to pvp. I want no opponent to last longer than 5 seconds against me. I am "hardcore" and don't want anyone to think of me as "casual" because that is a dirty word. Anything being easier, equalized or more fair is being more "casual." I want more people to pvp because I want more victims, but the pvp community being underpopulated is a price I am willing to pay to stay on top. I spent years getting to the point where I am more powerful than most other people, and I want to keep it that way. Making it easier for other people to compete so that the pvp community grows again is a bad idea. Anyone who wants to compete with me should have to trudge through all the crud I had to in order to gain my power. The game was worse in my day. Forget the idea that it is a game, and it should be fun. I had it hard, so new players should too even though it wouldn't really affect me in any way except that I have my 85% win ratio to think about in pvp! I think that more than 50% of the reason I am so powerful ISN'T mostly because because I have spent 4 years to nickel and dime my stats up, and get better gear. It is because I am so much more skillful than everyone else. *wink* *wink* Of course, if I am so skillful, then equalizing everyone wouldn't actually affect me at all, but still... don't do it."
Now just consider... that IS the general mentality (more or less) of how a good number of people think. They would never admit it because saying it like that makes it obvious how unfair it is though. I am not saying anyone here thinks that way, but I feel equalized pvp would take us away from that statement. Hmm. Maybe I should start a "How do you guys feel about equalized pvp?" thread.
Well said sir.
if you are getting beat and not winning games get over it and get better.....
its not that hard but you need to put the effort in to know exactly what your opponent is doing and how to beat it not just spam your ability's and hope you get a kill......
9 times out of ten i "vape" my opponent because im looking for the opening in there epts that that spam....
Um...saying you don't have time to pop PH is not the same as saying you "don't have time to finish activating all my defenses"...
PH sports I believe the typical 0.5s Activation delay, figure there's going to be at least another 0.5s or more that comes about from potential input lag. Blah, blah, blah - bunch of mechanics and timing and stuff...
Thing is, are you thinking you're hitting the PH to break the Tractor so it won't hit as hard? Or are you doing it to buff you damage resistance? Cause sure, you'll break the Tractor if you're still alive - but the to-hit rolls for what's going to be hitting you have already been made. It's not going to help - outside of buffing your damage resistance - with that.
What's your next step? Get away? Heal? If you just try to get away, you're likely leaving yourself exposed. If you just try to heal, you're just sitting there.
But in the end, this is all taking part in the discussion too late. Why did they decide to attack you at the point that they did, eh? Did you have an exploitable gap in your buff cycle that they have been watching? So they knew when to hit you? Did you need to have that gap? Were you overbuffing and not holding anything in reserve? Were you listening to what was going on around you? Did you hear buffs and not see anybody that would account for them? Were you alone? How did you get to the point that they picked you and picked that moment to attack you?
Don't get me wrong, damage in the game is ludicrous - but that's partially just because healing and damage resistance/reduction are ludicrous. All sorts of ludicrous going on...without those epic roll of the dice mega hits; well - who would actually get blown up these days? Ever watched a group of folks going at it in Ker'rat and nobody's dying? Then boom - somebody dies? Some folks will say it was their epic timing - but I'd ask - the fight's been going on long enough that their epic timing had nothing to do with it before when the target didn't die. It's just a series of random procs, random crit rolls, and somebody dies. Note, I said that's with folks going at it for a period of time. Folks disappear in the blink of the eye all the time because of how they built their ship, not paying attention, being predictable.
I'm not saying any of this as a vaper. I couldn't decloak kill anybody if they were afk grabbing a sandwich...it's from years of trying to pay attention to how I died, reviewing things when I wasn't sure how I died, and even asking folks about what might have caused that death. It's like the old Thissler vids - I point to them not as how to vape/ambush - but how to survive them...don't make the mistakes the targets in the vids make.
And in the end, you have to accept that there is only so much you can do on your own...have friends, you watch their back, they watch your back...and well...tends to go better for everybody except the folks trying to kill you. Whether you're in the queues or Ker'rat, it's still a team game...
Minimax that dirt bag hit me today with a proton barrage when I had impulse burst + deuterium just activated
Fun **** haha
Okay then. It was just because your previous post made it seem like the Tractor Beam would not make any difference to the damage dealt.
On the poll, I'll be finishing up in about 2 days.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I'm just going to throw this out there... have you ever considered using a NEUTRONIUM?!?!? my escorts can use 2, my cruisers usually only use three and that's about it. Even with 3 my cruiser has only been successfully alpha'd 3 times, twice the person has even told me that it took everything they had :L. Now imagine adding along side this field generators (which I'm not even using)? Ok now the average cruiser that's 50% resistance and idk 16-20k shields... throw in tac team. That's 80k shields to get through. Granted your not going to be alphaed with tac team by anyone who knows what they are doing... but that has added to your survival. This is not even including shield damage resistance though I have absolutly no idea how this works, I'd assume that its the same as hull damage resistance and caps at 75%.
The funny thing is the person posting this was using an oblisk. That is not going to be putting out a tremendous amount of damage so the only other option is to tank. I do believe those have a 1.1 shield modifier so you know this should be a really easy thing to counter.
A good cruiser should also always have up Emergency Power to Shields... this is really not negotiable unless your one of those dps cruisers but you know... that's another story. So really all it takes is idk maybe 1 million EC and you can survive most alphas...
Before someone yells at me saying: "But Vex, your eng is in a Bastion" lets think of it this way... Romulan ships don't make the best tanks in the first place but look at the fleet Ha'apax... high hull, high shields, if you want to pvp as a Romulan tank in a Romulan ship you should be using this anyways.
Try a set up like this: (Just going to put what matters)
Escort: Attack Patern Omega!!!!!
Cruiser: 3 Neutroniums, 2 Field Generators, Eng team 3, Emergency Power to shields 1, Reverse shield polarity 1...
If you want to get fancy thrown in a polarize hull somewhere. The screams to nerf those who can do damage I get but the screams are usually coming from someone who is not equiped to counter it. Not trying to be rude but just a little bit of investment will make you start rocking.
Sometimes ad hominem is mean spirited, sometimes it's to cover up when one side has a weak argument, and sometimes it's relevant.
You are not qualified to espouse any changes to game mechanics. Here are some reasons why:
You've got a basic lack of understanding of game fundamentals.
You still have the shiney newbness that makes you believe that some players are invincible. That's been the belief of new players since the dawn of STO pvp. It wears off because they learn to play, or they leave. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but it does tell me that you are unqualified to be making arguments about "game balance.")
You talk about "game balance" like it's a place to go. Like once you get there you'll slam a flagpole in the ground and heave a sigh of relief.
Lots more to say, but instead I'll just suggest you read and re-read virusdancer's last post for the high level of truthiness he's supplying. Especially the part about why you made it into somebody's target selection. Also play some more, hopefully learning to do so in the process.
I'm just going to throw this out there... Have you ever considered reading the post you just quoted? As I said, I was using 4 neutroniums and 3 field generators at the time you blew me up.
For clarity, that was 12,000 shields per facing obviously, and yes tac team was running. 12,000x4 would be about 48,000, but if I were using a covariant sheild with [cap]x3 instead of my resilient shield for the 5% less bleed through, then yeah I might be able to get it that high.
Also, tac team does not necessarily mean that you get to add all shield facings together to assume that all 4 must be reduced to 0 before you get killed. Sure tac team redistributes them fast, but not as fast as one single giant 70k damage blast. People die all the time with tac team going and most of their shields still up, so saying it is 80k shields to get through is not entirely accurate. I see what you mean though. Yes tac team helps a lot. Fantastic skill. I have it x2. I rotate them.
Why are you asking me if I use neutroniums and field generators, when I clearly posted that I did in the very post you quoted before you even asked the question?
I keep getting all this criticism from different people assuming that I am a newbie and I am obviously not smart enough to know how to build a ship. I keep pointing out that I actually was doing everything they suggest I should have done, and Vex STILL did that much damage.
I feel that bolsters my point.
Again, I am definitely NOT suggesting that burst damage be nerfed without defense being nerfed too. The difference between the normal players' and top end pvpers' offense / defense power gap is too wide. We need to mind the gap. Right now the burst damage is the only thing that can get through the mega defense people, so I am not criticizing Vex for having a ship that can kill me. If you couldn't do that... you would have never killed me, so indeed, it was warranted and needed.
I am suggesting pvp would probably be considerably more fun if vape-ing were removed, and defense were reduced to the point where you don't have to vape / alpha strike to kill a person even if they are defense based. I think it would be better if you can whittle people down steadily, but slowly enough that they have chances to respond to what you are doing, fight back, and maybe win. Again... emphasis on defense being nerfed to the point where that extra time is NOT going to let them become almost unkillable to you. If they chose to activate defense and repairs, it would just buy them a little more time.
I believe that would be an excellent change. Others in this discussion have also posted excellent ideas on what could be done regarding matchmaking, cooldown alteration, starting cooldowns on other abilities to control how much damage can be burst out all at once, equalized pvp, and a variety of other good options.
Despite some bickering, as the internet will always have, I think we have come up with some good ideas here if the devs want to read about it. I hope it isn't premature to declare a successful thread.
The argument isn't about if it CAN be countered. I can take my galaxy or my odyssey to the dyson sphere contested zone and continuously tank through and destroy voth ships without pause. So obviously dps and defense ability are equal. Its about the fact that they are both far too high to have a good PvP system. A player with a basic setup (evenly distributed tac, eng, and sci) and mk10 white gear has no chance against a player fully specced into 1 of the 3 careers and with fleet gear. This was evident when I was challenged to a duel by a defiant. Not only did my galaxy take zero hull damage from his attacks, but my phaser beam overload tore right through his shields and my high yield photon torpedo attack cratered his hull. Not only should this not have happened, he should have been able to slowly whittle down my shields and hull while I did the same. In the end he gave up and flew in circles until I killed him. I shudder to think what would have happened to him against a scimitar or other high dps ship.
Seriously stop drinking coffee.
To the one complaining about being pwned while running field gens, neutronium and blablabla, you definitely don't know what the heck you're talking about and QQing about vape. I can see your friend list empty.
getting angry for such reasons and trying to look like a total pro in showcasing all your resists? There's nothing worse to prove your lack of skills than ranting on forums.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2E3bcgHdic
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
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but thats true...I can avoid being vaped if I don't get stuck in invisible plasma/theta /etc or if I dont get vaped in the first 3 seconds when I do pvp bootcamp with my pug.Also normaly vapers should exist in a game in which the UI works...I don't see that happening....40 clicks for 1 rsp ,200 for 1 tt which also needs 1s to activate....my main enemy is the game then the vaper.
Also I dont have any friends cuz I'm antisocial :rolleyes: