Kit power - Chronoton mine barrier, it needs reimagining

mcduffie369 · April 2014

Chronoton Mine Barrier was clearly imagined as a defensive ability but due to the almost instant deployment and concentration of the mines area it is a "1 shot" offensive power.
It is the most over used engineering power by far, and a very lazy way to play.

The mines need to be looked at. They need a deployment time as other fabrications and should be spaced out more to prevent the concentrated 1 shot attack by detonating all 5 mines on a single target. Perhaps only 3 mines should spawn or the mines spawn in a circular area around the player.

I am an engineer. I enjoy the Breach Kit very much and am tired of seeing EVERY engineer who learns how chronoton mines can be abused use them exclusively. It is a lazy way for an engineer to be a power house and should be looked at...

rmy1081 · April 2014

The problem is they always flank. Other than that, idk. I don't ground pvp.

woodwhity · April 2014

mcduffie369 wrote: »

I am an engineer. I enjoy the Breach Kit very much and am tired of seeing EVERY engineer who learns how chronoton mines can be abused use them exclusively. It is a lazy way for an engineer to be a power house and should be looked at...

And before they became popular, fabrication specialist were the most used kit. Want to nerf that too? Combined with the Engineers Cover Shield you could hold the enemy and let the Mortars deal the hits, Mines and Bombs are just more efficient (e.g.faster). Take that away, and you have made the strongest class to the weakest class, because -damage wise- phyisician-Sci and Tactician easily overthrow a non-mining engineer (assuming all have the same level of skill).
Then whats left for the engineer? He is clearly not needed in space (including pvp), he isnt even needed on (pve)ground anymore, but its easier with him (you can do infected with 3 healers and well, thats not really the omg-dps-sci/tac-way to play, which is really sad). And tbh, if you take away this "OP"-ness in ground, you can just completely delete him from the database, because than its not worth playing.
Mortars do the same job I said, but in more time, time, in that only a elite tactic drone or endboss are left standing, because a tactician or a sci can easily clean up mobs beneath miniboss- level, long before the mortars come down. And if you take a team, well, mortars would have to deal their damage far faster. Mines have the handicap that you must get near you target, are shotable and assimilate-able. Mortars dont have those handicaps.

The last sentence was a bit revealing "I like breach engineer, but i hate that its not the strongest kit (or way) to play. I want that to be the most efficient way to play". Problem is, if you take this, engineer might still have the Orbital strike, but the other classes have multiple instant working skills with less CD.

Oh, and personally I prefer Sci for ground, its the playstyle with the most fun involved (Burn them, drag them, radiate them). And tac-close combat against borg, might not be the most dmg in combatlog, but applied directly and very fun to play (knocking borg down with your fists). The only way I can get the same feeling from a engineer, is using enemy neutralization, because all other kits are "I stay behind the corner and let them do their work" and thats a playstyle which I dont like (tbh its a bit cowardly, and thanks to power creep, its unefficient).
If you want to play breach engineer, do it, but pls think in a bigger picture.

If they would do anything, they should patch them back, so that mines deal less damage over distance, that was one of the buffs that certainly werent needed. They could even tune the damage a bit down, so its needed to either crit or flank to be really effective, which would seperate a good engineer from a "i just learned to click mines"-engineer. Though, when using combatlog, even that gets very clear at the end of the map. Unfortunately experience has thaught me, that cryptic doesnt know how to "tune something down", they only know to leave it or to completely nerf it into oblivion and beyond. The results of that I stated, and thus I would say, leave it be.

And pls dont use pvp-arguments. Dont argue for 0,1% of the players and kill the class for pve.

mcduffie369 · April 2014

woodwhity wrote: »

And before they became popular, fabrication specialist were the most used kit. Want to nerf that too...

Wow, mad bro? The ability doesn't feel right. I once used the mine kit until I realized it was lazy and required no effort. The ability is ill conceived.

majortiraomega · April 2014

The problem is Chroniton Mine Barrier is flat out overpowered right now. Over a year ago, Cryptic removed the "damage reduced by range" portion of Mine Barrier. This was done specifically to curb caitians jumping over the mines, triggering them, but only taking 10% of the final damage. However, Cryptic did not take into account the impact this would have on the minefield as a whole. A mine barrier field deals 2,200-4,000 damage and can be deployed once every 22 seconds (counting 2 second deployment time). The damage totals are balanced around the prior mechanic and needs to be toned down significantly.

The same goes for the tactical ability known as Lunge. Cryptic upped the Physical damage shield bypass, but they did not factor in how much of an effect that would have on Lunge. As a result, Lunge is capable of one hit killing a target when stacking Critical buffs/+damage abilities without much effort. That ability has a 12 second cooldown, but can deal 1,200-2,800 damage without much work. Then you have Sweeping Strikes. The ability itself puts the player in animation lock, but the damage over time dealt is higher than any other attack in the entire game. Did I mention it also provides the same shield bypass as lunge?

reginamala78 · April 2014

People in general just break everything, find ways to chain stuff together till its sick. You watch an engineering player with mines, backed by 2 boffs with mines, all buffed with assorted other powers and soloing a V-rex in 45 seconds.....yeah thats a little nuts.

mcduffie369 · April 2014

It's mine madness. Something has to be done. I dread seeing a engineer using mines in my pve and pvp groups. They suck all of the fun out of it by blowing up everything with a touch of the button.
Click button and bad guys vanish... Really?

reginamala78 wrote: »

People in general just break everything, find ways to chain stuff together till its sick. You watch an engineering player with mines, backed by 2 boffs with mines, all buffed with assorted other powers and soloing a V-rex in 45 seconds.....yeah thats a little nuts.

Tha's just wrong...

bones1970 · April 2014

im realy getting sick of people calling nerv, nerv, nerv.

revandarklighter · April 2014

bones1970 wrote: »

im realy getting sick of people calling nerv, nerv, nerv.

this
/10chars

mcduffie369 · April 2014

A lot of players do not want to give up their "easy mode, I win buttons" but in an MMO some degree of balance is required. I have used this ability and seen it used often and it has to be reimagined.

kazapsky · April 2014

mcduffie369 wrote: »

A lot of players do not want to give up their "easy mode, I win buttons" but in an MMO some degree of balance is required. I have used this ability and seen it used often and it has to be reimagined.

Not without bringing other Eng powers up to scratch to fill in the gap. You don't gut the only thing that makes a class viable while offering nothing in return, no matter how allegedly broken it is.

mcduffie369 · April 2014

kazapsky wrote: »

Not without bringing other Eng powers up to scratch to fill in the gap. You don't gut the only thing that makes a class viable while offering nothing in return, no matter how allegedly broken it is.

Mines are not an engineers only option. The revamped combat supply is now my favorite ability. Using a Breach Kit I out damage an engineer using a mine kit. You have to stop thinking inside the box.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te4rt0f72g8 Breach kit.

bones1970 · April 2014

so.....nerv breach kit, nerv, nerv, nerv

mcduffie369 · April 2014

bones1970 wrote: »

so.....nerv breach kit, nerv, nerv, nerv

So, nerf the Breach Kit. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf.

It's called grammar.

doffingcomrade · April 2014

mcduffie369 wrote: »

Chronoton Mine Barrier was clearly imagined as a defensive ability but due to the almost instant deployment and concentration of the mines area it is a "1 shot" offensive power.

It doesn't deploy instantly. It has a rather extended delay between the time the mines appear, and the time they will actually become active and detonate when tripped.

mcduffie369 wrote: »

It is the most over used engineering power by far, and a very lazy way to play.

Well, the list of engineering powers that do things isn't exactly particularly broad. What are your options, really? Mines, Bomb, Turrets?

mcduffie369 wrote: »

The mines need to be looked at. They need a deployment time as other fabrications and should be spaced out more to prevent the concentrated 1 shot attack by detonating all 5 mines on a single target. Perhaps only 3 mines should spawn or the mines spawn in a circular area around the player.

They have one: There's a fairly lengthy delay between when the mines beam in, and when they can go boom.

mcduffie369 wrote: »

I enjoy the Breach Kit very much and am tired of seeing EVERY engineer who learns how chronoton mines can be abused use them exclusively. It is a lazy way for an engineer to be a power house and should be looked at...

There are precisely 3 engineering powers you can use in which something will go boom. Mortars are a bit of a non-starter, being that it takes roughly a minute between the time you use it and the time something finally goes boom, and you have absolutely no way to control where, exactly, the boom occurs, which means the boom occurs someplace where all the enemies have long since moved on or died. Transphasic bomb is nice, but the time it takes to appear is long, and roots you in place the entire time, and the time after that when it can finally go boom is even longer. On top of that, the thing usually gets destroyed, and it's glitchy, often deploying, but never actually going boom at all.

That leaves you a single reliable option for making something go boom. Should it really be surprising that this gets used a lot? What else would you do instead?

mcduffie369 wrote: »

Mines are not an engineers only option. The revamped combat supply is now my favorite ability. Using a Breach Kit I out damage an engineer using a mine kit. You have to stop thinking inside the box.

I cannot help but notice that nothing went boom, you weren't particularly mobile, and indeed, stood there for a good 5 minutes without managing to kill a single enemy, and when you did finally kill something, all you did was annoy what appeared to be an artillery point, the easiest kind of point. In Normal.

Woo.

rakija879 · April 2014

Don't rush into the minefield it helps alot. :P

mcduffie369 · April 2014

If anything add an arming timer to them that lasts about 5 seconds.

thegalaxy31 · April 2014

Wait for Season 9 and the probable (~79% chance) of ability nerfs

thegalaxy31 · April 2014

mcduffie369 wrote: »

So, nerf the Breach Kit. Nerf. Nerf. Nerf.

It's called grammar.

I think he did that on purpose in response to the way you spelled Chroniton in your thread title...

gooddaytodie39 · April 2014

Mines are OP. No doubt about it. They make Defera Invasion and other ground content a joke. The way they work should be adjusted.

mcduffie369 · April 2014

gooddaytodie39 wrote: »

Mines are OP. No doubt about it. They make Defera Invasion and other ground content a joke. The way they work should be adjusted.

Yes, the Defera Hard Temple Mission is made no fun at all by an engineer and mines.

woodwhity · April 2014

gooddaytodie39 wrote: »

Mines are OP. No doubt about it. They make Defera Invasion and other ground content a joke. The way they work should be adjusted.

Defera invasion is a joke regardless of class :rolleyes:

dareau · April 2014

kazapsky wrote: »

Not without bringing other Eng powers up to scratch to fill in the gap. You don't gut the only thing that makes a class viable while offering nothing in return, no matter how allegedly broken it is.

Been playing my engie a touch recently. I love the part of a V-Rex fight when I see "starship caliber" numbers (5x 2000+) shoot up into the sky twice a minute, in a setting when "most" mobs are lucky to have a 4th digit in their HP total...

Sure makes that 6 damage per second Hyperonic Radiation and that what, ~20-50 damage / tick exothermic field look OP in comparison... </sarcasm>

In all honesty, if it takes one-shotting mini-bosses for a class to be "viable", then either:

1. Someone's definition of viable is way off
2. Someone's definition of balance is way off...

If it's possible, why don't they re-institute damage over distance, but only measure it on a horizontal plane, not both the vertical and horizontal (so being straight over the mine when it blows = max damage, but being on the periphery, even at caitian jump height, means a touch of damage instead of max...

mcduffie369 · April 2014

dareau wrote: »

Been playing my engie a touch recently. I love the part of a V-Rex fight when I see "starship caliber" numbers (5x 2000+) shoot up into the sky twice a minute, in a setting when "most" mobs are lucky to have a 4th digit in their HP total...

Sure makes that 6 damage per second Hyperonic Radiation and that what, ~20-50 damage / tick exothermic field look OP in comparison... </sarcasm>

In all honesty, if it takes one-shotting mini-bosses for a class to be "viable", then either:

1. Someone's definition of viable is way off
2. Someone's definition of balance is way off...

If it's possible, why don't they re-institute damage over distance, but only measure it on a horizontal plane, not both the vertical and horizontal (so being straight over the mine when it blows = max damage, but being on the periphery, even at caitian jump height, means a touch of damage instead of max...

Amen, Brother.

futurepastnow · April 2014

dareau wrote: »

Been playing my engie a touch recently. I love the part of a V-Rex fight when I see "starship caliber" numbers (5x 2000+) shoot up into the sky twice a minute, in a setting when "most" mobs are lucky to have a 4th digit in their HP total...

Sure makes that 6 damage per second Hyperonic Radiation and that what, ~20-50 damage / tick exothermic field look OP in comparison... </sarcasm>

In all honesty, if it takes one-shotting mini-bosses for a class to be "viable", then either:

1. Someone's definition of viable is way off
2. Someone's definition of balance is way off...

If it's possible, why don't they re-institute damage over distance, but only measure it on a horizontal plane, not both the vertical and horizontal (so being straight over the mine when it blows = max damage, but being on the periphery, even at caitian jump height, means a touch of damage instead of max...

The V-Rex has a "starship caliber" hull, too, over 30k hit points. That's how Cryptic balances it against the kind of damage a large group of players dish out. And bear in mind that a V-Rex at any given time is going to have a stack of Tricorder Scan, Target Optics, FOMM, etc etc debuffs on it. I've fired 2k sniper shots, too, but I don't claim to have a Mk XX sniper rifle.

Not saying the Chroniton Mines don't need to be toned down. But they, and other ground weapons, aren't being used in a vacuum.

rakija879 · April 2014

gooddaytodie39 wrote: »

Mines are OP. No doubt about it. They make Defera Invasion and other ground content a joke. The way they work should be adjusted.

Its OP because you know where the enemy will respawn :P

frtoaster · April 2014

dareau wrote: »

If it's possible, why don't they re-institute damage over distance, but only measure it on a horizontal plane, not both the vertical and horizontal (so being straight over the mine when it blows = max damage, but being on the periphery, even at caitian jump height, means a touch of damage instead of max...

I think this is the best solution. It returns Chroniton Mine Barrier to its previous state, but prevents the Caitian jumping exploit. I didn't feel Chroniton Mine Barrier was unbalanced before Cryptic removed the damage reduction over distance. I don't think the ability needs to be "reimagined"; just restore the damage reduction over distance, but only in the horizontal plane, as you said.

mcduffie369 · April 2014

frtoaster wrote: »

I think this is the best solution. It returns Chroniton Mine Barrier to its previous state, but prevents the Caitian jumping exploit. I didn't feel Chroniton Mine Barrier was unbalanced before Cryptic removed the damage reduction over distance. I don't think the ability needs to be "reimagined"; just restore the damage reduction over distance, but only in the horizontal plane, as you said.

That still will not change that it is a dull and ill imagined ability. Mines are historicly a defensive weapon but the speed and arrangement of their deployment makes them into a mega powerful offensive attack that is used as a crutch by the laziest of engineers.

jbmaverick · April 2014

mcduffie369 wrote: »

That still will not change that it is a dull and ill imagined ability. Mines are historicly a defensive weapon but the speed and arrangement of their deployment makes them into a mega powerful offensive attack that is used as a crutch by the laziest of engineers.

You imply that either the engineers are running up to their targets to deploy the mines at their feet or that they are deploying the mines and drawing the enemies into the mines. The first is hardly lazy as the engineer is actively moving through a combat area, likely firing all the while, and the second is using them defensively as you apparently think they should be. I would argue a Bunker or Fabrication Specialist user is likely to be more lazy since they just deploy their devices and let them do their thing, no cycling of powers needed.

And to head off this argument, how is mining a beam-in point NOT defensive? That's pretty much exactly what mines are meant for, preventing an enemy from entering an area.

I do agree the mines may be a bit more powerful than they should be, but engineers kind of lack other options due to how the kits are currently set up. STFs in particular can be rather hard on engineers as most of their "offensive" abilities focus on remaining in a single location, which doesn't mesh well with the mission timers, and the other kits often have a "wasted" ability. Hopefully that'll be at least partially fixed with S9 and the kit revamp.

Edit: to clarify, I consider any power that deals appreciable direct damage as an "offensive" power.
Phaser/Disruptor Turret: fairly reliable damage, but stationary position and low hitpoints means it has only moderate usefulness. Often destroyed by enemy AoE limiting its application against "boss" grade enemies. Very poor choice for certain STFs where bosses have chaining attacks.
Quantum Mortar: heavy damage but unreliable as enemies are often already dead or relocated by the time the attack lands. Has similar weaknesses to the Phaser turret in terms of placement but range and the ability to ignore obstacles increases its usefulness against "boss" grade enemies if placed properly.
Transphasic Bomb: heavy damage on a pretty long cooldown, long spin up time, and unreliable detonation if destroyed first. Manual detonation effectively increases cooldown time. Useful for booby-trapping beam-in points and maybe around corners, but not during a firefight.
Chroniton Mine Barrier: reliable damage, short spin up time with the least interuptive animation for the user of the offensive powers, cooldown isn't terrible. Slightly limited due to fixed location but because they can't be destroyed by enemy fire deploying it close to an enemy position isn't as bad as turret/mortar/bomb deployment.
Seeker Drone Fabrication: reasonable damage on a mobile platform with 100% uptime if it isn't destroyed early, still has issues against "boss" grade enemies that have AoE or chaining attacks as the AI isn't intelligent enough to avoid the first and is a liability with regards to the second.
Fuse Armor's damage really isn't appreciable enough to be included in this list.

So engineers have 5 "offensive" powers, only 3 of which are really useful in heavy combat, and 2 of those options aren't a good choice for most STF bosses. Wonder why everyone favors the other one then, why carry multiple kits when one will do (I do not share this opinion and have carried every available kit on my engineer for years, swapping when I feel it is necessary)? I do appreciate the upgrade to Combat Supply, but if every engineer is carrying that kit then it's effectively being wasted beyond the first, and I still feel like the power could be better. It's still limited to a fixed location, limiting its usefulness in STFs where the buffs would arguably be the most useful.

mimey2 · April 2014

Gonna be honest, glad I moved to Equipment Technician kit a long time ago.

doffingcomrade · April 2014

Okay, I'm missing something here. I keep hearing about this "Caitian Jumping Exploit" in regard to mines. From what I can piece together, at some distant point in the past, Caitians were able to avoid mines by jumping over them. This was somehow considered an exploit, for some bizarre reason. If this is the case, I think I pretty much abused the hell out of this exploit back in Vietnam, which is why I'm still alive today.

Kit power - Chronoton mine barrier, it needs reimagining

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