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What I think is wrong with PVP in STO
hoshino1
Member Posts: 56 Arc User
http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj567/val567/Sub%20album/screenshot_2014-04-01-20-33-58_zps5d19046a.jpg
This picture right here is what is wrong with pvp in sto in my opinion. Just my two cents, but I think that some people can get WAY too invincible, and some people can get WAY too much burst damage. The power gap between the most powerful, tweaked out people and someone relatively new, who just has a decent (not quite perfect) build with some middle of the road gear is WAY too wide.
This guy threw literally over 70,000 damage with 1 single beam. That will 1 shot most people even through full shields and full hull HP! I don't care what kind of ship you have. The game is not balanced in such a way to have it be ok to have burst damage like that being thrown around. Look at the surrounding damage compared to this guy's burst damage. This is just ridiculous.
We need to tone down these stupid vape / alpha strike builds, and quite frankly, tone down some of the tanking / shield / healing builds too. Narrow the power band so that the difference in effectiveness in being twinked out, and not being twinked out is maybe a 20% difference in power. That goes for healing, defense, and offense. All 3.
Yeah I am suggesting that we go more casual. I know everyone is going to start yelling how that is stupid, but consider what the alternative declares:
"We want to be hardcore. If you want to pvp, you need to grind, wait longer than you want to before you can play on a competitive level, and probably pay a lot of money to win. Even then, NO, you cannot make your ship the way you like to play and have that be reasonably effective! You need to go online, and read for a long time about the suggestions of someone with no life, who has ran all the calculations and has figured out how to maximize your damage output. Common sense is not good enough. You MUST follow this guide or you will not be good enough. This isn't a game that we feel other people should be able to join in and be effective easily. Forget new players. We would prefer pvp to die a slow death if that means we can stay on top a little longer."
That is dumb. Well, congratulations because that is basically where we are at now, and pvp is basically dead.
Now, let's control this power gap, and get this game going again. I think a good first step would be to do something about beam overload's burst damage.
Either that or just raise beam overload's damage to the point where anyone can 1 shot anyone else no matter what. Combat would really just be more of a coin flip to see who can fire beam overload off first, but coin flips are technically balanced.
Does that sound fun? No? Well, then you see where the logical end of the train of thought that vape / alpha strike builds lead us to. Is it not true that is the end goal of the vape / alpha strike builds: to basically one shot the opponent or kill them so fast that they can't react? What if everyone did that?
Of course, there is also the additional idea that it will be really time consuming, grindy, and costly to get to the point where you can do that, so I will be rewarded for my suffering earlier by almost always being able to defeat you, and you cannot get to where I am easily. In fact you will probably get frustrated and quit, but not before I get my jollies killing you a whole bunch.
Even if you do catch up to me, then we will take turns instantly obliterating each other.
Yeah that is dumb. Let's turn away from that idea because that is where we are headed right now. We need to let non-geared out players who don't want to grind, spend lots of money, and go do hours of homework online be effective in pvp anyway. Maybe less so, but reasonably effective, which means MUCH more powerful than they are now.
This picture right here is what is wrong with pvp in sto in my opinion. Just my two cents, but I think that some people can get WAY too invincible, and some people can get WAY too much burst damage. The power gap between the most powerful, tweaked out people and someone relatively new, who just has a decent (not quite perfect) build with some middle of the road gear is WAY too wide.
This guy threw literally over 70,000 damage with 1 single beam. That will 1 shot most people even through full shields and full hull HP! I don't care what kind of ship you have. The game is not balanced in such a way to have it be ok to have burst damage like that being thrown around. Look at the surrounding damage compared to this guy's burst damage. This is just ridiculous.
We need to tone down these stupid vape / alpha strike builds, and quite frankly, tone down some of the tanking / shield / healing builds too. Narrow the power band so that the difference in effectiveness in being twinked out, and not being twinked out is maybe a 20% difference in power. That goes for healing, defense, and offense. All 3.
Yeah I am suggesting that we go more casual. I know everyone is going to start yelling how that is stupid, but consider what the alternative declares:
"We want to be hardcore. If you want to pvp, you need to grind, wait longer than you want to before you can play on a competitive level, and probably pay a lot of money to win. Even then, NO, you cannot make your ship the way you like to play and have that be reasonably effective! You need to go online, and read for a long time about the suggestions of someone with no life, who has ran all the calculations and has figured out how to maximize your damage output. Common sense is not good enough. You MUST follow this guide or you will not be good enough. This isn't a game that we feel other people should be able to join in and be effective easily. Forget new players. We would prefer pvp to die a slow death if that means we can stay on top a little longer."
That is dumb. Well, congratulations because that is basically where we are at now, and pvp is basically dead.
Now, let's control this power gap, and get this game going again. I think a good first step would be to do something about beam overload's burst damage.
Either that or just raise beam overload's damage to the point where anyone can 1 shot anyone else no matter what. Combat would really just be more of a coin flip to see who can fire beam overload off first, but coin flips are technically balanced.
Does that sound fun? No? Well, then you see where the logical end of the train of thought that vape / alpha strike builds lead us to. Is it not true that is the end goal of the vape / alpha strike builds: to basically one shot the opponent or kill them so fast that they can't react? What if everyone did that?
Of course, there is also the additional idea that it will be really time consuming, grindy, and costly to get to the point where you can do that, so I will be rewarded for my suffering earlier by almost always being able to defeat you, and you cannot get to where I am easily. In fact you will probably get frustrated and quit, but not before I get my jollies killing you a whole bunch.
Even if you do catch up to me, then we will take turns instantly obliterating each other.
Yeah that is dumb. Let's turn away from that idea because that is where we are headed right now. We need to let non-geared out players who don't want to grind, spend lots of money, and go do hours of homework online be effective in pvp anyway. Maybe less so, but reasonably effective, which means MUCH more powerful than they are now.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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House of Beautiful Orions
PUNISH THE FEDs
Without knowing the details of both ships, and the details of that fight, that damage number means nothing.
Most of the rest of your post is just taking up space. I suppose if you wanted to go to a guild wars format that's great. The other bits about "you must do this, you must do that, you can't do this" amount to "stuff I made up to fake an argument.".
In any case you seriously overstate the investment needed to PVP and your personal preference for your proposal doesn't translate to facts.
Yes it currently takes effort to PVP. But it isn't insurmountable.
This guy reacted to the fact that players like yourself are wearing enough armor to HALVE anything they might throw your way.
So they have resorted to stacking every single buff the game has in order to burst 50-75k a go knowing that against most targets that is going to = 20-30k tops.
Think of it this way... lets say someone throws a 75k Crit hit overload 3 into your ship... when you have 75% shield resist (this would be you with the same number of defensive buffs up as they have offensive)... + your standard armor (looks to me like you are resisting 50% of dmg)
That would mean 3700 or so would bleed. (assuming you have a resilient shield and I bet you do) Only 1850 if that number would be actual hull dmg.
That would mean 17,825 dmg would in fact be hitting your shield after resistance is applied. So yes you would loose a facing... assuming you have 11k or so in shielding on your tub... you have now lost Just under 7,000 in hull...
Barely a tickle... unless someone managed to overload you when your shields where down... which is in fact pretty hard to do honestly unless the engagment has been dragging on or you where fighting the rest of this persons team and they where just waiting for a good moment to overload you.
If they did manage to hit your hull... you have over 50% resistance and obviously only took 30k from that hit... I am going to bet you have 50k+ hull so hardly a one shot is it.
Is dmg to high in STO... I don't know perhaps.... that can't change however unless resistance stacking does as well.
So I will stipulate this.
The games Damage mods should have a diminishing return formula applied to them.
However only IF the same formula was also applied to shield resistance. Right now it is far to easy to run 50+ shield resistance all the time, with many players having learned how to roll a handful of shield buffs to stay close to 75% the majority of the time. The fact that shield cap + 50% hull perma hull resists is almost standard these days, has lead the games meta to "vape" builds because people have realized to in fact kill someone through resistance and healing in STO you have to put up 100k in dmg with in 5s... if you can't do that you can't really kill anyone reliably.
---Edit---
Oh... I forgot to mention that the cloaking in this PvEvP is very unbalanced and a PAIN IN THE AS# of fed players
if you are in a tier 2 ANYTHING the last place you should be is Kerrat. the only things you will find there are:
Death
minimax
Proton Death Via minimax
HOBO
more death
spawn camping death
me cloaked and hiding from all the death
HOBO bug snoopers
my death
and simply to go full circle....
Death
hell, i might even pop you for laughs....
I'd like to see more emphasis on player skill development and MUCH less emphasis on item acquisition
Why do you still post in these forums? Yeah, we get it, you're jaded, STO holds no appeal to you any more, your hax tools no longer work, blah, blah, blah. If you're going to move on, then move on. Trying to dissuade others from liking PvP and telling us how bad STO's PvP has become really serves no purpose.
@DevolvedOne
big pvp 10v10s alive and well in organizedpvp chat channel. *summon pvp match
min dies with honor. GG
Yes! This.
And to antoniosalieri:
Yes, I agree. People do, in fact, need to be able to throw that kind of damage these days because there are some defensive people out there where if you can't throw 70k damage blasts and kill them in 5 seconds, you can't kill them at all. They are simply too indestructible.
We have these offensive, and defensive juggernaughts that are either invincible or can obliterate another person giving them no chance. The rest of the players are caught in between feeling worthless against the defense mongers, and helpless against the offense mongers.
As a final result, mostly, the only people left pvping are the two extreme ends. Top 5% dpsers, and 5% survivability; the other 90% quit. Obviously something must be done.
Now, I don't know if this next idea is a good one or not. Perhaps not, but if the devs knock these juggernaughts off their unassailable pvp thrones, then we might see people from the community trickling back in over time to repopulate pvp since they can actually win again. Because, honestly, no one is going to pvp if they can't win even 25% of the time. It becomes a bad experience, and then they stop. Therefore, I would suggest that, YES, we do actually have to let lesser geared people win a decent amount of the time.
Hehehe. I called it! I called it! I said in my original post that someone was going to start yelling about my move toward casual play comment. Yep. There it is. They took my comment about general pvp game balance regarding both offense AND defense, and twisted my statement by making it about me.
(sigh)
Now this is an excellent example of the type of statement I see over and over from mmo to mmo opposing games going more casual. Yeah darn those casuals! *shakes fist* I know I put on my top hat, suit, and monocle to play monopoly because I am hardcore, and we use real contracts for the properties because, in Soviet Russia, games aren't supposed to be about everyone having fun. They are about more grinding after a hard day of grinding at work!
Haha. I don't care so much that someone has a build that can kill me. I have a problem with the fact that they have a build that can kill mostly ANYONE in less than 3 seconds.
If you look at the pvp changes coming down the pipe, the devs ARE making the game more casual friendly, which is why I am posting suggestions on what I would like to see. Did you see the one dev posting on how pvp is almost completely dead?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=4210954#post4210954
Given your comment, I infer that you do not want to change everything so "I can feel better," but in reality they can barely populate 1 or 2 pvp maps. Not changing everything isn't going to fix the problem. NO ONE IS PLAYING. They need to change everything, and have already said they are going to do so, such that, not only "I can feel better about my ability to perform," but so that everyone else can too.
Certainly, you aren't suggesting we keep everything where it is, with the pvp community shrinking at an alarming rate are you?
However I agree also the following quoted post...
Moreover, there is too much healing in the game actually, so high spike damage actually is the only way to destroy an opponent.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
This ^
/10char
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Bottom Line: If you want to play cruiser/carrier-style in PvP, expect to get vaped from time to time. You're a big, fat and (generally) slow target that can't escape - i.e. the ideal vape opportunity. So either switch platforms and learn to counter-vape (and make them pay before they can run and cloak), or go back to PvE.
RCK
Your alarmest response reeks of Soviet propaganda. I Pvp'd since Beta, actually leveled my first couple characters through PvP. Still have plenty of matches all night long 4 years later. What you should infer is that I think you should invest the time in being proficient in something rather than expect the game and everyone to change to suit your "casual style of play". It's not rocket science. Half your post is practically a troll thread on how bad it all is. Complete with wild claims of the end of PvP. Given Gozer's post you mentioned is 2 years old, I can reasonably say if you have time to dig up 2 year old irrelevant gloom and doom, you could be working on your build.
If you want everything the same kudos to you. Communism worked so well for the old USSR. You want to win, learn to play. Just like grinding dilithium, time equals profit. It doesn't take a master's degree to be good at this game's PvP.
For the record, even if cryptic changed the 90% of PvP, there would still be the elite, the learners and the casual criers begging for some developer to make it easier. No twisting of words required, sorry if life in an MMO doesn't always give you a victory medal for showing up with barely any work.
The question is do you think PVP is any good?, that is the question. I am not known for hax tools, so what other excuse are you going to spout for me?
There was a reason TSI and now unfortuntely the majority of Sad Pandas have left STO, go figure, if your too blind to notice this while stroking your epeen I rest my case.
Some of us wised up and left, some of you remain ignorant or at best prefer to pugstomp
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
As it is, I don't spend enough time playing to get items and build quality of many other people, so why should I be expected to jump into an arena with a bunch of OP adversaries who can blow me away instantly, when i could jump into an arena with other players with similar build levels (which would also usually mean more evenly matched player skill levels) and enjoy myself, and leave the high enders to smack away at each other.
But then, those at the peak of the game play would have to be matched against others of the same ilk, and then there's no more easy one shot show boating to be had, hence all the hostility towards the idea from said players.
Things like boffs with Operative traits should not stack(which is something only romulans can reliably do), and romulan ships need to actually be balanced.
However theres nothing wrong with the "hardcore" nature of PvP itself.
In fact, since virtually everything else in the game these days is casual, PvP is really the one and only place people can go these days to really be challenged.
Challenge is subjective, your assuming everyone has equal hardware to begin with, unless the rules of engagement are fixed i.e no cheese and just pure skills in a cookie cutter build, it might work, but the amount of rage and epeen stroking i doubt it will take off
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Because I just wanted to add the following, which may have been mentioned - but I didn't see it (not that I've read every thread and post).
So, on Holodeck...
After Decloaking, +25% Damage Bonus for a brief duration.
And, on Tribble...
After Decloaking, +40% Damage Bonus for a brief duration.
Same toon, same ship, same BOFFs...well, there was one piece of gear that was different (that's how I noticed it - I was taking a look at the Rom Deflector, checking out the Stealth Detection boost when I decided to make sure it was giving the little Stealth boost - which BTW, is still bugged and not giving any boost...meh).
I hop on a KDF toon there - it's still the +15%. I can't hop on the other Rom toon over there (they're in "You weren't supposed to go to Risa Hell" - ahem). So I go back to Willard and clear my BOFFs...down to +15%. Add a single Rom Sub BOFF and...+40%.
The trait for the BOFF on both Holo and Tribble says +0.2%...which has never made sense to me, lol - but anyway.
Is it a bug? Is it a buff? Is it a fix? How does +0.2% equal +10% in the first place on Holo..how does +0.2% end up being +25% on Tribble?
Just thought I'd share that...
edit: Note, I do not have any Embassy BOFFs (anywhere) to test if they give non-Roms the same +40% on Tribble.
In my best al gore voice, "Fuzzy Math, Fuzzy Math"
On side note I noticed this also. On holodeck I have rommie with only 3 SRO and halfway repped up, still running voth AP turrets. My rommie is hitting harder and more often for criticals. In MIE my rommie is averaging 50K crits on every ship I buff on. My KDF fully repped and outfitted with 3 SRO and 2 Pirates is hitting on average for 30K crits on every ship out of cloak
[Combat (Self)] J'Moda deals 86906 (84640) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to you with Dual Elachi Banks - Overload III.
And that one is fresh off a PvP match that just ended. Insta killed my Voth Palisade from full health and shields.
Anybody ever take a look at how the Elachis and EWO Pen DOFF work together (if they do)...?
Double tap removed to stop this stuff erm it didn't work (NOT going to say people told you so). And it is another prime example of a knee jerk reaction brought on by "The Community". Tell you what how about we just get rid of weapons all together and just rely on ramming speed ? How long would it take to say HE FLIES BETTER AND RAMS BETTER THAN ME NERF IT ?
I tended to think of the BO changes as a proactive nerf - because Cryptic knew what was coming. Could you imagine the 2x BO/3x BO with everything that's been added since? Heh...now that would be some complaining.
You know I'm the guy who did that and I do have to say, while my Vex character can vary day by day from doing really really well to just being a free target. It really just depends who's on your team and what your up against, and to your thing about no one can survive that... My eng has a cruiser and has only been successfully alpha'd twice, besides that it took either multiple people to kill it or one of those attack ships that are just ridiculously good and squishy but... I'm healing so how am I going to kill it :L One of the times the person even told me that he had to get me to use every ability I had and had to wait for every rep ability and use every console he had.
What I'm trying to say is, it is possible to make a cruiser that cant be alpha'd, just takes 3 neutroniums and some good piloting, no +damage resistance consoles or shield emitters needed. Ill admit its in the bastion but if you can pilot your ship right you can be very hard to kill, I honestly dont try to be unkillable in it i like to have some offense.
Ive seen escorts survive them which may even be easier because they have Attack Patern omega but what are you going to do.