Sorry, but this is completely wrong. Every published report of the FTP game-space has shown that the vast majority of spending comes from a small number of big spenders. That is who Cryptic is targeting.
The player who drops five bucks for a couple of keys is gravy. The player who spends hundreds because they "have to have" a ship is their meat and potatoes.
I won't argue with you. But I will say that there are only so many big spenders out there. This game has to support a portion of the monthly operating costs of a development studio on an ongoing basis. That says 'volume' to me.
Maybe there's a disproportionate number of 'big spenders' associated with this game, I don't know. I'll admit I don't read PWE's financials. I do know that the FTP model depends on a steady stream of impulse buying from spenders big and small.
The main thing I do not like about Star Trek Online, is how it is age branded 13. Because of the gambling element with lockboxes and current DOFF packs, it should be advertised as an 18 game.
People worldwide, know and recognise the Star Trek brand name, so if their 14 year old asks can they play the online game of the same name, most parents would not question it.
6 months later little Timmy* has a gambling addiction and his parents have clue as to why, he only plays 1 game in the "family friendly" Star Trek universe that is a 13+ game.
(* = Name selected at random, for a fictional character to highlight a point - character does not exist and bears no resemblance to any person living or dead)
Two of my sons play with me. They do not have the ability to charge Zen against my bank account. We've also discussed things like the pitfalls of gambling and debt. And they're learning that we can't just run out and buy an XBox just because they want it.
I've given my boys some lockbox keys. Know what they prefer to do with 'em? Sell them on the exchange. They've already learned lockboxes aren't magic boxes that give you what you want.
Education is key, if you'll pardon any resemblance to a pun. "Little Timmy" isn't going to develop a gambling addiction without the culpability of parents.
If parents are on the ball, STO can be a learning experience where children learn why marketing works and how to resist it. Because this isn't about gambling. This is about marketing and self-control. Some adults could stand to pay attention in "class".
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Now, if it stole my credit card #, it would find itself without anything more than food, clothing, and shelter until it paid me back in full, in cash, @ the same interest rate the credit card has. It would be very, very sorry.
sadly TSW turned out to be a never ending grind, now almost unplayable for a casual player, if you haven't grinded out the best of the best and you aren't capped in the trinity role you wanna play.
that is why i love STO. also as a casual player you get to have fun. in PVP, PVE with random group or friends, and also alone.
and it's Trek!
ok I have paid for lifetime, that's the total of my cash spent on the game, I felt it was good value for money and felt that the time I had already spent playing and would play for in the future was well worth the price tag.
from the c-store I have ships, lock boxes, doff packs, bank slots, boff slots, ship slots, shared bank slots, inventory slots, and lots more and never spent a penny on any of it, all gained mostly from just from playing the game and converting dil with the odd little bit of stipend to top it off.
sorry to disagree with you but nothing anyone can say will make me think this game hasn't got the best ftp model out there.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
It was 4 keys for me and I got it, tbh It kept me happy, keeps the game going and if you don't agree with the methods used in this promo simple, don't buy the zen! save up and buy keys on the exchange because at the end of the day you have the choice to pay or not to pay in this game.
Yes, and I'm sure all parents have a safe in their homes and lock away all valuables out of sight - after all why would anyone want to relax and let their guard down in their own homes :rolleyes:
At least I've figured out who the people are without children or under 18 around here
Two of my sons play with me. They do not have the ability to charge Zen against my bank account. We've also discussed things like the pitfalls of gambling and debt. And they're learning that we can't just run out and buy an XBox just because they want it.
I've given my boys some lockbox keys. Know what they prefer to do with 'em? Sell them on the exchange. They've already learned lockboxes aren't magic boxes that give you what you want.
Education is key, if you'll pardon any resemblance to a pun. "Little Timmy" isn't going to develop a gambling addiction without the culpability of parents.
If parents are on the ball, STO can be a learning experience where children learn why marketing works and how to resist it. Because this isn't about gambling. This is about marketing and self-control. Some adults could stand to pay attention in "class".
You sir deserve a cookie. A big, chocolate cookie. :P
It's sad to see there are adults that throw away paychecks behind Romulan doff packs (I've seen them throwing away 150$ literally and get nothing) while there are still some smarter young players out there.
What do we get as subscribers to STO? The privilege of paying full price for everything.
As it stands, I will keep playing STO, and supporting it because I have good friends here and do love the game despite its blemishes and faults... but Cryptic, I urge you to rethink this whole thing, and consider at least giving subscribers some incentive - when you've already got your hands in my left pocket, reaching around to get into my right pocket like this as well makes it seem like you only love me for my money... and that is no way to maintain a lasting relationship.
Well, for both your examples, you seem to miss, that for the items you list, most of them you need money (cash) on you to buy them - so the child has to ask the parent and the parent knows full well what the money is being spent on and the odds of "winning". (There is no proof of age, no photo ID when buying Zen - so a child could use a parents bank or credit card without them knowing - something they cannot do in a shop or vending machine)
Where does it state in the game information that people read, to sign up for the game, that this game contains elements of gambling and the odds for winning the prizes (lockbox or DOFF pack)? (Hint : It does not).
A parent is going to look at the game information, not be given any sort of clue that there is gambling involved in the game and let their child sign up.
(Seen the Dev blog for the bug ship at all?? nice big letters "CHANCE TO WIN", no odds given, other stuff in the box listed in tiny writing way lower down, and 3 pictures all of the Bug ship, not what you "will get" out of the pack, but what you "could" get - Kellogg's nor Coke-a-Cola push that hard on the gamble element, they still rely on their products being top value)
Last time I checked they could get that back with a charge back order, the account will be banned, and they can punish the child. Though if they are stealing from their parents they have bigger problems than a game.
Where does it state it on TCG packs, cereal boxes, bottles of pop, Kinder eggs, those vendy things? Nowhere that I see when they run but they just say chance to win and contain no odds.
We are currently running a promotion that will provide an additional bonus when purchasing a Romulan Survivor Duty Officer Pack!
First line of the dev blog. You are buying a duty officer pack and guess what it lists exactly what the DOFF packs can contain in the C-Store.
Each Romulan Survivor Duty Officer Pack will include:
4 Common or Better Duty Officers
2 Uncommon or Better Duty Officers
1 Rare or Better Duty Officer
A Bonus Item!***
Is listed above the bug ship details.
As I said earlier if you are buying the DOFF packs for the ship then you are doing it wrong.
As to needing cash you don't. You can buy the promotion packs on the exchange for EC, you can trade dil for Zen and get them hat way too.
Last time I checked they could get that back with a charge back order, the account will be banned, and they can punish the child. Though if they are stealing from their parents they have bigger problems than a game.
Parents have already been in the news, as children have developed gambling habits from games parents didn't know you could spend so much real life cash in.
The credit card companies basically went with the "tough luck, now pay up" approach and the game developers just defend the lack of information - bit like you are now.
There is nothing wrong with adding more information so parents of younger players and older players know exactly what they are getting in to.
Where does it state it on TCG packs, cereal boxes, bottles of pop, Kinder eggs, those vendy things? Nowhere that I see when they run but they just say chance to win and contain no odds.
As I've stated, no matter how resourceful the child, they are not going to get away with using a bank card or credit card in a shop or vending machine - online games it's just a few clicks and done.
So your point here is neither valid or appropriate as they are cash sales only to a 13 / 14 year old.
First line of the dev blog. You are buying a duty officer pack and guess what it lists exactly what the DOFF packs can contain in the C-Store.
Is listed above the bug ship details.
As I said earlier if you are buying the DOFF packs for the ship then you are doing it wrong.
As to needing cash you don't. You can buy the promotion packs on the exchange for EC, you can trade dil for Zen and get them hat way too.
Don't even get me started on passing the buck.
You need to look up the word "first" and re-read what I wrote.
Two of my sons play with me. They do not have the ability to charge Zen against my bank account. We've also discussed things like the pitfalls of gambling and debt. And they're learning that we can't just run out and buy an XBox just because they want it.
I've given my boys some lockbox keys. Know what they prefer to do with 'em? Sell them on the exchange. They've already learned lockboxes aren't magic boxes that give you what you want.
Education is key, if you'll pardon any resemblance to a pun. "Little Timmy" isn't going to develop a gambling addiction without the culpability of parents.
If parents are on the ball, STO can be a learning experience where children learn why marketing works and how to resist it. Because this isn't about gambling. This is about marketing and self-control. Some adults could stand to pay attention in "class".
*hugs*
Erm... that's totally true though. Poor impulse control is the source of the "gambling bug" in the first place, thus all arguments that this promotion will lead children to a gambling addiction are fundamentally flawed.
Two of my sons play with me. They do not have the ability to charge Zen against my bank account. We've also discussed things like the pitfalls of gambling and debt. And they're learning that we can't just run out and buy an XBox just because they want it.
I've given my boys some lockbox keys. Know what they prefer to do with 'em? Sell them on the exchange. They've already learned lockboxes aren't magic boxes that give you what you want.
Education is key, if you'll pardon any resemblance to a pun. "Little Timmy" isn't going to develop a gambling addiction without the culpability of parents.
If parents are on the ball, STO can be a learning experience where children learn why marketing works and how to resist it. Because this isn't about gambling. This is about marketing and self-control. Some adults could stand to pay attention in "class".
That is all well and good Blue - but what about parents who do not play online games?
Education is key, I will agree - but parents need to be educated on what games offer - and no where in the sign up process does PWE or Cryptic tell you that there is and element of gambling in the game.
Plus, as a parent you know as well as I do, children learn not just from parents, but from peers at school, from idols on TV, from teachers and by observing the world around them.
We cannot monitor every bit of information that enters their minds - heck 9 - 3 everyday school day we are not with them to monitor them.
So in my opinion, games that have an element of gambling should be age rated higher so parents unaware will do research on why the game is rated like that, or there should be better information stating about the gambling element.
Just because we are gamers, I have friend with children who are not gamers and would not know about games with gambling elements - nothing wrong with helping those parents out with more information.
You act like the internet is a safe place for a child with the exception of the oh so evil gaming companies.
Have you looked at what else exists on the internet?
If your child can steal your credit card, and then use it on a game without your knowledge then that might just be the least of your problems. Might want to check that browsing history and find out just what else your child is up to.
This promotion makes even less sense from a "o my gawd this is gambling and this is evil" standpoint than any type of a lockbox argument. If there is no promotion on and you want doffs from the Cstore you do what? You buy the doff pack. If there is a promotion and you want doffs from the Cstore you do what? You buy the doff pack, and get something A GUARANTEED SOMETHING extra. You got what you paid for, the doffs. You got something extra 10 lobi and or a JHAS. Either way if you are buying packs purely for the ship, you are doing it wrong and really should re-evaluate your reasoning process.
If your kid has unlimited access to the internet, and the ability to steal and use your credit card at will, then you really should keep a closer eye on their activities, since pretty much ordering anything on the internet is as simple as buying zen.
In closing, have self discipline, be intelligent, and remember that the internet is vast, there are far worse things on it than evil gaming companies that want to addict your kid into buying doff packs.
You act like the internet is a safe place for a child with the exception of the oh so evil gaming companies.
Have you looked at what else exists on the internet?
If your child can steal your credit card, and then use it on a game without your knowledge then that might just be the least of your problems. Might want to check that browsing history and find out just what else your child is up to.
This promotion makes even less sense from a "o my gawd this is gambling and this is evil" standpoint than any type of a lockbox argument. If there is no promotion on and you want doffs from the Cstore you do what? You buy the doff pack. If there is a promotion and you want doffs from the Cstore you do what? You buy the doff pack, and get something A GUARANTEED SOMETHING extra. You got what you paid for, the doffs. You got something extra 10 lobi and or a JHAS. Either way if you are buying packs purely for the ship, you are doing it wrong and really should re-evaluate your reasoning process.
If your kid has unlimited access to the internet, and the ability to steal and use your credit card at will, then you really should keep a closer eye on their activities, since pretty much ordering anything on the internet is as simple as buying zen.
In closing, have self discipline, be intelligent, and remember that the internet is vast, there are far worse things on it than evil gaming companies that want to addict your kid into buying doff packs.
Lets address a few points in your rant shall we,
1) My children are not old enough yet to play online games - so this whole topic does not apply to me - yet.
2) I'm a tech savvy parent - I'm not making the assumption all parents are, as I know they are not.
3) My children are monitored and so are the games (console and pc) that come into my home. But not everyone knows what to look for or has time to try a game before letting their children play it.
4) Teenagers are sneaky - they won't tell you if a game has something you do not approve of in it, especially if their peers at school are playing it, they will want it.
Adding a little extra information is not going to harm any of you that are freaking out - you lot remind me of this
Wonder how many you that are reacting so badly are really under 18 and if your parents knew what was in STO would be stopped from playing it ?
Because thats what you all reek of, frightened little children about to lose a toy.
4) Teenagers are sneaky - they won't tell you if a game has something you do not approve of in it, especially if their peers at school are playing it, they will want it.
There is a big difference between not telling your parents what you're doing (which is very understandable, privacy and stuff) and stealing their credit card and the password to purchase stuff without their consent (which is absolutely unacceptable).
There is a big difference between not telling your parents what you're doing (which is very understandable, privacy and stuff) and stealing their credit card and the password to purchase stuff without their consent (which is absolutely unacceptable).
Anyone of any age can experience problems with controlling
their gambling behaviour. For young people, the impact of the
problem may seem trivial often there is no job, mortgage or
family to lose. However gambling problems are experienced by
around 2% of people aged 11 to 15, around 60,000 young people
in Britain. Problem gambling is associated with educational
problems such as low attainment and truancy, can lead to
emotional, social and behavioural problems, and worryingly,
those who begin their gambling careers earlier in life are more
likely to be problem gamblers in adulthood.
All I've asked is measures to be taken to help parents make informed choices about this game (and others like by logical extension), as not all parents are gamers and know about MMOs bringing out "elements" of gambling.
And people are reacting like I'm trying to personally shut the server off !!
All I've asked is measures to be taken to help parents make informed choices about this game (and others like by logical extension), as not all parents are gamers and know about MMOs bringing out "elements" of gambling.
Gambling is not the problem, there, it's the fact kids can get the money in the first place.
What you're saying is "gambling is a problem with younglings, PWE should stop/be more careful with this so kids don't get addicted", but that's trying to fix the consequence, not the cause.
Fixing the cause would be: "Have parents and others teach kids to be more responsible with their money and teach parents to make sure kids don't get bad habits and start stealing money for gambling".
As I've stated, no matter how resourceful the child, they are not going to get away with using a bank card or credit card in a shop or vending machine - online games it's just a few clicks and done.
So your point here is neither valid or appropriate as they are cash sales only to a 13 / 14 year old.
Ever heard of eBay? How about Amazon? These are U.S. links, so you might not see them from another country, but I assure you that both of these well-known sites take credit cards for online purchases of Pokemon and other collectible card packs. I suppose that we'd better block access to those, you know, for the children.
Has the online marketplace made it easier for children to use credit cards to get things without their parents' permission? Certainly. Could disclaimers be put in to help? I suppose so. Just don't act like this is a new problem, though. Children have definitely stolen money from their parents for similar things for the century or so that collectible cards have existed, and probably for longer. Marbles and antecedent games date back centuries, and are much more of a true gambling scenario in play, and also solely considered a child's game. The world has not become a den of gambling addicts because of these.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
Gambling is not the problem, there, it's the fact kids can get the money in the first place.
What you're saying is "gambling is a problem with younglings, PWE should stop/be more careful with this so kids don't get addicted", but that's trying to fix the consequence, not the cause.
Fixing the cause would be: "Have parents and others teach kids to be more responsible with their money and teach parents to make sure kids don't get bad habits and start stealing money for gambling".
Tobacco companies have to warn of the dangers smoking.*
Alcohol companies have to warn against alcohol abuse.*
Casinos (Online or Real life) have to warn about gambling addiction.*
All give information on where to go (normally a website link) to seek help should you develop a problem. - This is known as being "responsible"
In this game, you can develop and addiction long before you start on real life cash, the addiction can develop while you grind EC or Dil (neither are hard to earn and twice as fast to spend) - then it can get to the point like all addictions do, when you cannot "earn" enough to feed the daily habit - it is all downhill from there.
By the time a "youngling" (love that expression by the way lol) gets to the point where they try for an adults bank or credit details, it is too late.
I cannot fathom why people are so adverse to a bit of extra effort on a game company to make sure people are aware (links on the home page to support sites, a waning during the signup process) that young minds will be exposed to elements of gambling and just to be mindful.
Ever heard of eBay? How about Amazon? These are U.S. links, so you might not see them from another country, but I assure you that both of these well-known sites take credit cards for online purchases of Pokemon and other collectible card packs. I suppose that we'd better block access to those, you know, for the children.
Really, Ebay and Amazon - was the best you could come up with... back to the Gollum video for you.
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Also, comparing a Shop, to a Game... really?
And again, what teenager tells their folks of the down side to a game they want to play with their friends... they don't, so adding it in that they should is a pointless cop out at best.
PWE/Cryptic are not taking reasonable steps to make sure parents are fully aware of what is inside there product.
Has the online marketplace made it easier for children to use credit cards to get things without their parents' permission? Certainly. Could disclaimers be put in to help? I suppose so. Just don't act like this is a new problem, though. Children have definitely stolen money from their parents for similar things for the century or so that collectible cards have existed, and probably for longer.
Finally making some sense - took long enough.
Technology marches on, and not everyone can keep up with new ways to do things - sooner or later we will fall behind and rely on our (grown up) children to explain it to us so we know what our grandchildren are talking about, bit like my folks asking me what "Tweeting" is, and having to show them Facebook.
I'm not asking for a full inquest into the trading practice of MMO companies, just for them to take a bit of responsibility and make sure adults know what their children are signing up for and more appropriate age ratings - Personally, I think 16 would be leaps and bounds better than the current 13.
Tobacco companies have to warn of the dangers smoking.*
Alcohol companies have to warn against alcohol abuse.*
Casinos (Online or Real life) have to warn about gambling addiction.*
All give information on where to go (normally a website link) to seek help should you develop a problem. - This is known as being "responsible"
In this game, you can develop and addiction long before you start on real life cash, the addiction can develop while you grind EC or Dil (neither are hard to earn and twice as fast to spend) - then it can get to the point like all addictions do, when you cannot "earn" enough to feed the daily habit - it is all downhill from there.
By the time a "youngling" (love that expression by the way lol) gets to the point where they try for an adults bank or credit details, it is too late.
I cannot fathom why people are so adverse to a bit of extra effort on a game company to make sure people are aware (links on the home page to support sites, a waning during the signup process) that young minds will be exposed to elements of gambling and just to be mindful.
As someone pointed out earlier none of that is a relevant comparison. A much better comparison is how General Mills is currently doing a promotion where you get a free comic book with specially marked boxes of cereal. Sane people don't buy it for the comic book. If you do buy it for the book, well, it's not very expensive, but there's no way to know if you'll get the one you want, since the current promotion has 4 different comics and you have no way to know which one is in each box. ALSO, the promotion doesn't mention that it's not a set of 4 comics. Each comic is part of a set, but (for example) is a 6 of 8, and the other 7 aren't available in this promotion.
The way I see it, your issue is that you either have a grossly distorted concept of reality, or are being intentionally obtuse.
As someone pointed out earlier none of that is a relevant comparison. A much better comparison is how General Mills is currently doing a promotion where you get a free comic book with specially marked boxes of cereal. Sane people don't buy it for the comic book. If you do buy it for the book, well, it's not very expensive, but there's no way to know if you'll get the one you want, since the current promotion has 4 different comics and you have no way to know which one is in each box. ALSO, the promotion doesn't mention that it's not a set of 4 comics. Each comic is part of a set, but (for example) is a 6 of 8, and the other 7 aren't available in this promotion.
The way I see it, your issue is that you either have a grossly distorted concept of reality, or are being intentionally obtuse.
Never knew who General Mills were - but thank you.
One goal at General Mills is to be among the most socially responsible food companies in the world.
We continually set targets for bettering the nutritional profile of our foods, and we keep addressing social and environmental challenges.
We also make annual financial contributions from our pretax profits, with these funds awarded to philanthropic and charitable causes.
We reached a milestone in fiscal 2013, donating more than $153 million, or nearly $3 million a week.
Glad to know, I'm not the only person with a "grossly distorted concept of reality", looks like the concept of "social challenges" sits with them as well as with me - I will be sure to buy those products now I know they are a reasonable and responsible company.
Just out of curiosity, how is a website about a food company a better example that an online marketplace?
Hidden gambling elements masquerading as a social game, suitable for 13 year olds.... don't see the connection with Ebay, Amazon or General Mills - none of those as far as I am aware, can build up gambling addictions in young people.
Come on Gollums, unite in your defense of "my precious" as that's all I'm seeing at the moment... with exception to the General Mills site, a refreshing read.
Just a couple of lines adding to the signup sheet and a link to your local gambling support information - not really a lot to ask for, it's not like I'm asking for a full Borg faction, or the ability to fire the Genesis device at every Federation player I see....
Yet, those reactions would not be half as bad.
This reminds me of taking booze from an alchy and the bad reaction you get from them
I might go start a thread asking for that full Borg faction, at least I know I may find some support for that daft (yet fun) idea and not have to fight all the addicts defending their "precious" (that LOTR reference is well and truly stuck in my head now lol).
I'd understand if it took anything at all away from the game, but it does not
This discussion is getting a little too heated. Please tone it down, and if you have posted any comment that violates forum rules, please go back and edit it now.
While PWE and Cryptic are presently on firm legal ground and lockboxes don't meet the legal definition of gambling in the U.S. and many other places, I think we can all agree that there is an element of risk involved in buying large quantities of keys or packs for the bonus awards.
It isn't gambling, technically, but it does affect people with compulsive behaviors.
I'm an adult with a fair understanding of the psychology of marketing and the dangers of poor money management and I struggle with the temptation to buy all this stuff myself.
I don't call myself Bluegeek for nothing.
It's easy to see how a minor could get caught up in wanting in-game "stuff" that they don't have the money to buy. The goal of marketing is always to convince people they want to buy your product.
That's not necessarily bad. They aren't victimizing people. They are providing something with entertainment value. It's up to the person who has the bank account to exercise responsibility for where their money goes. And to the person paying for the Internet connection to take responsibility for how it's used.
I'm not sure there's a lot of value in PWE posting the equivalent of "This coffee is HOT. May cause burns if misapplied. Drink at your own risk."
"Minors may steal your wallet in order to buy Zen compulsively. May result in financial hardship. Have children at your own risk."
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I bought the same pack and I also didn't win a ship.
However I'm not mad about it. It was a calculated risk:
- The worst case scenario I bought some duty officers - I can use them on my ship or sell them on the market.
- I didn't pay a penny: I mined dilithium, bought ZEN and payed with this ZEN.
It is absolutely OK I think. STO has one of the best F2P system. Most games called "F2P" means "you can play some parts of the game free". In STO you can play the whole thing for free - if you have time you can achieve anything.
When Legacy of Romulus came out I subbed for 3 month and bought the cheapest Legacy pack - because I liked the stuff and I wanted to support the company. Before that I bought my Odyssey for real money because I had no time to mine enough dilithium. But mostly I play this game for free. My Vesta came for "free" - because I had enough time to farm dilithium.
And I received the same Vesta like the guy who payed for it with real money. And this is good. I know a lot of "F2P" games where eventually you will experiencing some really hard limit... and there is no way to continue without paying.
Also the lottery boxes are OK:
- you can buy them with a few days worth of dilithium
- nobody forces you to buy these lotteries
- and STO's lottery system is much more better than SWTOR's for example. In STO you can receive useful stuff: doffs, consoles, etc. You can receive something even if you are not winning the grand prize. In SWTOR cartel boxes very rarely contants useful stuff.
Yeah resulting to personal attacks is a great way to get your opinion across. But keep on doing you, the last 5 pages in this thread shows that people don't have the same mindset as you. But gl hf.
Comments
I won't argue with you. But I will say that there are only so many big spenders out there. This game has to support a portion of the monthly operating costs of a development studio on an ongoing basis. That says 'volume' to me.
Maybe there's a disproportionate number of 'big spenders' associated with this game, I don't know. I'll admit I don't read PWE's financials. I do know that the FTP model depends on a steady stream of impulse buying from spenders big and small.
Two of my sons play with me. They do not have the ability to charge Zen against my bank account. We've also discussed things like the pitfalls of gambling and debt. And they're learning that we can't just run out and buy an XBox just because they want it.
I've given my boys some lockbox keys. Know what they prefer to do with 'em? Sell them on the exchange. They've already learned lockboxes aren't magic boxes that give you what you want.
Education is key, if you'll pardon any resemblance to a pun. "Little Timmy" isn't going to develop a gambling addiction without the culpability of parents.
If parents are on the ball, STO can be a learning experience where children learn why marketing works and how to resist it. Because this isn't about gambling. This is about marketing and self-control. Some adults could stand to pay attention in "class".
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
LOL
Now I do like your way of thinking there
sadly TSW turned out to be a never ending grind, now almost unplayable for a casual player, if you haven't grinded out the best of the best and you aren't capped in the trinity role you wanna play.
that is why i love STO. also as a casual player you get to have fun. in PVP, PVE with random group or friends, and also alone.
and it's Trek!
from the c-store I have ships, lock boxes, doff packs, bank slots, boff slots, ship slots, shared bank slots, inventory slots, and lots more and never spent a penny on any of it, all gained mostly from just from playing the game and converting dil with the odd little bit of stipend to top it off.
sorry to disagree with you but nothing anyone can say will make me think this game hasn't got the best ftp model out there.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
to pay or not to pay... that is the question!!
Classic Strawman.
You sir deserve a cookie. A big, chocolate cookie. :P
It's sad to see there are adults that throw away paychecks behind Romulan doff packs (I've seen them throwing away 150$ literally and get nothing) while there are still some smarter young players out there.
QFT a million times over
Last time I checked they could get that back with a charge back order, the account will be banned, and they can punish the child. Though if they are stealing from their parents they have bigger problems than a game.
Where does it state it on TCG packs, cereal boxes, bottles of pop, Kinder eggs, those vendy things? Nowhere that I see when they run but they just say chance to win and contain no odds.
First line of the dev blog. You are buying a duty officer pack and guess what it lists exactly what the DOFF packs can contain in the C-Store.
Is listed above the bug ship details.
As I said earlier if you are buying the DOFF packs for the ship then you are doing it wrong.
As to needing cash you don't. You can buy the promotion packs on the exchange for EC, you can trade dil for Zen and get them hat way too.
Don't even get me started on passing the buck.
Parents have already been in the news, as children have developed gambling habits from games parents didn't know you could spend so much real life cash in.
The credit card companies basically went with the "tough luck, now pay up" approach and the game developers just defend the lack of information - bit like you are now.
There is nothing wrong with adding more information so parents of younger players and older players know exactly what they are getting in to.
As I've stated, no matter how resourceful the child, they are not going to get away with using a bank card or credit card in a shop or vending machine - online games it's just a few clicks and done.
So your point here is neither valid or appropriate as they are cash sales only to a 13 / 14 year old.
You need to look up the word "first" and re-read what I wrote.
Here are some pictures to help;
First line promotes the Bug ship, not the DOFF pack
The pack details are HALF WAY DOWN - I had to scroll the page past the "promo" to find the DOFF pack information, long AFTER the Bug ship.
So yes, younger more impressionable people will buy the pack, for the ship - as that is what is being advertised the most.
Again, I say, where is your problem adding information and making it clearly visable, to help people and parents make a choice?
Erm... that's totally true though. Poor impulse control is the source of the "gambling bug" in the first place, thus all arguments that this promotion will lead children to a gambling addiction are fundamentally flawed.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
That is all well and good Blue - but what about parents who do not play online games?
Education is key, I will agree - but parents need to be educated on what games offer - and no where in the sign up process does PWE or Cryptic tell you that there is and element of gambling in the game.
Plus, as a parent you know as well as I do, children learn not just from parents, but from peers at school, from idols on TV, from teachers and by observing the world around them.
We cannot monitor every bit of information that enters their minds - heck 9 - 3 everyday school day we are not with them to monitor them.
So in my opinion, games that have an element of gambling should be age rated higher so parents unaware will do research on why the game is rated like that, or there should be better information stating about the gambling element.
Just because we are gamers, I have friend with children who are not gamers and would not know about games with gambling elements - nothing wrong with helping those parents out with more information.
My character Tsin'xing
Have you looked at what else exists on the internet?
If your child can steal your credit card, and then use it on a game without your knowledge then that might just be the least of your problems. Might want to check that browsing history and find out just what else your child is up to.
This promotion makes even less sense from a "o my gawd this is gambling and this is evil" standpoint than any type of a lockbox argument. If there is no promotion on and you want doffs from the Cstore you do what? You buy the doff pack. If there is a promotion and you want doffs from the Cstore you do what? You buy the doff pack, and get something A GUARANTEED SOMETHING extra. You got what you paid for, the doffs. You got something extra 10 lobi and or a JHAS. Either way if you are buying packs purely for the ship, you are doing it wrong and really should re-evaluate your reasoning process.
If your kid has unlimited access to the internet, and the ability to steal and use your credit card at will, then you really should keep a closer eye on their activities, since pretty much ordering anything on the internet is as simple as buying zen.
In closing, have self discipline, be intelligent, and remember that the internet is vast, there are far worse things on it than evil gaming companies that want to addict your kid into buying doff packs.
Lets address a few points in your rant shall we,
1) My children are not old enough yet to play online games - so this whole topic does not apply to me - yet.
2) I'm a tech savvy parent - I'm not making the assumption all parents are, as I know they are not.
3) My children are monitored and so are the games (console and pc) that come into my home. But not everyone knows what to look for or has time to try a game before letting their children play it.
4) Teenagers are sneaky - they won't tell you if a game has something you do not approve of in it, especially if their peers at school are playing it, they will want it.
Adding a little extra information is not going to harm any of you that are freaking out - you lot remind me of this
Wonder how many you that are reacting so badly are really under 18 and if your parents knew what was in STO would be stopped from playing it ?
Because thats what you all reek of, frightened little children about to lose a toy.
I can't believe that he knew that we were all 12 year old thieving children with an online gambling addiction.
God that keen mind of his I find it hard to believe he's not a psychologist in disguise.
All I've asked is measures to be taken to help parents make informed choices about this game (and others like by logical extension), as not all parents are gamers and know about MMOs bringing out "elements" of gambling.
And people are reacting like I'm trying to personally shut the server off !!
12! Shouldn't be here yet anyway, not until you're 13+ :P
What you're saying is "gambling is a problem with younglings, PWE should stop/be more careful with this so kids don't get addicted", but that's trying to fix the consequence, not the cause.
Fixing the cause would be: "Have parents and others teach kids to be more responsible with their money and teach parents to make sure kids don't get bad habits and start stealing money for gambling".
Ever heard of eBay? How about Amazon? These are U.S. links, so you might not see them from another country, but I assure you that both of these well-known sites take credit cards for online purchases of Pokemon and other collectible card packs. I suppose that we'd better block access to those, you know, for the children.
This is pretty standard practice when advertising a promotion for a product. Not much Coke here with the World Cup promotion.
Has the online marketplace made it easier for children to use credit cards to get things without their parents' permission? Certainly. Could disclaimers be put in to help? I suppose so. Just don't act like this is a new problem, though. Children have definitely stolen money from their parents for similar things for the century or so that collectible cards have existed, and probably for longer. Marbles and antecedent games date back centuries, and are much more of a true gambling scenario in play, and also solely considered a child's game. The world has not become a den of gambling addicts because of these.
Tobacco companies have to warn of the dangers smoking.*
Alcohol companies have to warn against alcohol abuse.*
Casinos (Online or Real life) have to warn about gambling addiction.*
All give information on where to go (normally a website link) to seek help should you develop a problem. - This is known as being "responsible"
In this game, you can develop and addiction long before you start on real life cash, the addiction can develop while you grind EC or Dil (neither are hard to earn and twice as fast to spend) - then it can get to the point like all addictions do, when you cannot "earn" enough to feed the daily habit - it is all downhill from there.
By the time a "youngling" (love that expression by the way lol) gets to the point where they try for an adults bank or credit details, it is too late.
I cannot fathom why people are so adverse to a bit of extra effort on a game company to make sure people are aware (links on the home page to support sites, a waning during the signup process) that young minds will be exposed to elements of gambling and just to be mindful.
Really, Ebay and Amazon - was the best you could come up with... back to the Gollum video for you.
Oh, and as you missed it....
Also, comparing a Shop, to a Game... really?
And again, what teenager tells their folks of the down side to a game they want to play with their friends... they don't, so adding it in that they should is a pointless cop out at best.
PWE/Cryptic are not taking reasonable steps to make sure parents are fully aware of what is inside there product.
So, because it is "standard" practice, makes it ok then?
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
Finally making some sense - took long enough.
Technology marches on, and not everyone can keep up with new ways to do things - sooner or later we will fall behind and rely on our (grown up) children to explain it to us so we know what our grandchildren are talking about, bit like my folks asking me what "Tweeting" is, and having to show them Facebook.
I'm not asking for a full inquest into the trading practice of MMO companies, just for them to take a bit of responsibility and make sure adults know what their children are signing up for and more appropriate age ratings - Personally, I think 16 would be leaps and bounds better than the current 13.
The way I see it, your issue is that you either have a grossly distorted concept of reality, or are being intentionally obtuse.
My character Tsin'xing
Never knew who General Mills were - but thank you.
Glad to know, I'm not the only person with a "grossly distorted concept of reality", looks like the concept of "social challenges" sits with them as well as with me - I will be sure to buy those products now I know they are a reasonable and responsible company.
Just out of curiosity, how is a website about a food company a better example that an online marketplace?
Hidden gambling elements masquerading as a social game, suitable for 13 year olds.... don't see the connection with Ebay, Amazon or General Mills - none of those as far as I am aware, can build up gambling addictions in young people.
Come on Gollums, unite in your defense of "my precious" as that's all I'm seeing at the moment... with exception to the General Mills site, a refreshing read.
This thread is confusing the daylights out of me!
Just a couple of lines adding to the signup sheet and a link to your local gambling support information - not really a lot to ask for, it's not like I'm asking for a full Borg faction, or the ability to fire the Genesis device at every Federation player I see....
Yet, those reactions would not be half as bad.
This reminds me of taking booze from an alchy and the bad reaction you get from them
I might go start a thread asking for that full Borg faction, at least I know I may find some support for that daft (yet fun) idea and not have to fight all the addicts defending their "precious" (that LOTR reference is well and truly stuck in my head now lol).
I'd understand if it took anything at all away from the game, but it does not
This discussion is getting a little too heated. Please tone it down, and if you have posted any comment that violates forum rules, please go back and edit it now.
While PWE and Cryptic are presently on firm legal ground and lockboxes don't meet the legal definition of gambling in the U.S. and many other places, I think we can all agree that there is an element of risk involved in buying large quantities of keys or packs for the bonus awards.
It isn't gambling, technically, but it does affect people with compulsive behaviors.
I'm an adult with a fair understanding of the psychology of marketing and the dangers of poor money management and I struggle with the temptation to buy all this stuff myself.
I don't call myself Bluegeek for nothing.
It's easy to see how a minor could get caught up in wanting in-game "stuff" that they don't have the money to buy. The goal of marketing is always to convince people they want to buy your product.
That's not necessarily bad. They aren't victimizing people. They are providing something with entertainment value. It's up to the person who has the bank account to exercise responsibility for where their money goes. And to the person paying for the Internet connection to take responsibility for how it's used.
I'm not sure there's a lot of value in PWE posting the equivalent of "This coffee is HOT. May cause burns if misapplied. Drink at your own risk."
"Minors may steal your wallet in order to buy Zen compulsively. May result in financial hardship. Have children at your own risk."
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
However I'm not mad about it. It was a calculated risk:
- The worst case scenario I bought some duty officers - I can use them on my ship or sell them on the market.
- I didn't pay a penny: I mined dilithium, bought ZEN and payed with this ZEN.
It is absolutely OK I think. STO has one of the best F2P system. Most games called "F2P" means "you can play some parts of the game free". In STO you can play the whole thing for free - if you have time you can achieve anything.
When Legacy of Romulus came out I subbed for 3 month and bought the cheapest Legacy pack - because I liked the stuff and I wanted to support the company. Before that I bought my Odyssey for real money because I had no time to mine enough dilithium. But mostly I play this game for free. My Vesta came for "free" - because I had enough time to farm dilithium.
And I received the same Vesta like the guy who payed for it with real money. And this is good. I know a lot of "F2P" games where eventually you will experiencing some really hard limit... and there is no way to continue without paying.
Also the lottery boxes are OK:
- you can buy them with a few days worth of dilithium
- nobody forces you to buy these lotteries
- and STO's lottery system is much more better than SWTOR's for example. In STO you can receive useful stuff: doffs, consoles, etc. You can receive something even if you are not winning the grand prize. In SWTOR cartel boxes very rarely contants useful stuff.