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Weapon power drain mechanics/testing
dragonsbite
Member Posts: 530 Arc User
Just to be clear on overcapping and resistance to weapon power drain. I just spent a bit of time testing quite a few things. There is NO hidden max cap from which weapon power cost is subtracted from. 125 is the max in which weapon power is subtracted from. If you go above 125 it's of no help for increasing the Min value. Anything over 125 is reserve power which will increase the Peak value. So this reserve above 125 is important. If you are at 135 weapon power and use an ability to increase weapon power by say 30, the Peak value is increased by 30. However the Min value will stay the same as you are subtracting weapon power cost from 125. Note that this is 40 in reserve in this example. So the Peak value will increase by 40.
Let me try to explain this a bit. First what's the minimum weapon power level and how exactly does weapon power drain work. Here's some testing i did.
-Note- This testing would be worse case scenario with all weapons in sync and firing 100% of the time.
-Note- My leech console will give me 16 weapon power when used except as noted
-Note- This is primarily the power use during a firing cycle and not the recover after a cycle.
-Note- I am not concerned with Dual Heavy Cannons as their behavior is completely different.
-Note- Fire at Will costs 12.5 weapon power and not 10. 2.5 of which can not be lowered by resistance to power drain nor reduced weapon power cost from weapons command.
-Update- to explain Min, Peak, and Average values.
Min=When you initially fire all weapons this is the value you should see. This is (Min(weapon power level, 125))-weapon power cost. Remember 1 weapon has no cost. You may see 5 or 10 above this value. If you use 5 beams you will see this value. But with 8 beams it's virtually impossible to see this value.
Peak Value=This is the peak value you see during a firing cycle. (Min(weapon power level, 125))-weapon power cost. Then include leech and any reserve power above 135. Basically this is Min+Leech+reserve. Or Min+Leech+EPTW for example and not to exceed 125. Obviously Max after a firing cycle is cap and you at times hit this cap during a firing cycle as well. But this is not what it means for these tests. Weapon power will increase from the Min value. This is the max value it achieves consistently of the Min value and holds at a steady rate. You will however hit cap even during a firing cycle at times. And at times even hit 0 weapon power. (observable)
Average value=This is the average value your weapon power will be at during a firing cycle. At the beginning of a firing cycle you should be at Min(weapon power, 125). Once the cycle starts you will do down to Min. During the firing cycle you will go up to Peak. So i'm going to assign this value for an average. (Min(Weapon power, 125)+Min+Peak)/3. This number can be rather subjective and isn't meant to be exact in any way.
-Note- Damage via weapon power level. There is a long formula for this. But let me simplify it to make it easy. Go into non sector space and check your weapons tooltip (not the one on the weapons tray). Now do this: listed weapon damage*weapon power*0.02 Let me show some examples.
My weapon tooltip says 480
at 25 weapon power i do 480*25*0.02=240 damage
at 50 weapon power i do 480*50*0.02=480 damage
at 75 weapon power i do 480*75*0.02=720 damage
at 100 weapon power i do 480*100*0.02=960 damage
at 125 weapon power i do 480*125*0.02=1,200 damage
As you can see weapon power level will greatly effect your damage. This first test basically shows how badly your weapon power levels are effected even when weapon power is at 124. Consequently this would also explain why over 50% of the players can't even achieve 10k dps. Not pointing fingers here as the whole purpose of my testing is to benefit everyone and most especially the ones i did more or less point to. Apologies.
Leech=16 power drain
Using 8 beams for 70 weapon power cost.
Test 1A autofiring
Weapon power=124
Min power=54
Peak power=54
Average power=77
With Leach
Weapon power=140
Min power=55
Peak power=70
Average power=83
power goes down to 55 then up to 70 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 1B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=124
Min power=37
Peak power=37
Average power=66
With Leech
Weapon power=140
Min power=38
Peak power=53
Average power=72
power goes down to 38 then up to 53 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Here's a video of test 1 http://youtu.be/hWEVM98MaCc Note that it includes autofiring and Fire at Will. Just a short sample. No leech.
Increased weapon power by 11
Test 2A autofiring
Weapon power=135
Min power=55
Peak power=65
Average power=82
With Leech
Weapon power=151
Min power=55
Peak power=81
Average power=87
power goes down to 55 then up to 81 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 2B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=135
Min power=38
Peak power=48 (47 observed)
Average power=70
With Leech
Weapon power=151
Min power=38
Peak power=64 (63 observed)
Average power=75
power goes down to 38 then up to 64 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Increased weapon power by 5
Test 3A autofiring
Weapon power=140
Min power=55
Peak power=70
Average power=83
With Leech
Weapon power=156
Min power=55
Peak power=86
Average power=89
power goes down to 55 then up to 86 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 3B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=140
Min power=38
Peak power=53 (52 observed)
Average power=72
With Leech
Weapon power=156
Min power=38
Peak power=69 (68 observed)
Average power=77
power goes down to 38 then up to 69 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Next i swap to an Elite Fleet Reinforced warp core for more weapon power. This is the shield->weapon power one. Leech=17 weapon power now as shield increases by 16 for 1.2 additional weapon power.
Test 4A autofiring
Weapon power=151
Min power=55
Peak power=81
Average power=87
With Leech
Weapon power=168
Min power=55
Peak power=98
Average power=93
power goes down to 55 then up to 98 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 4B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=151
Min power=38
Peak power=64 (63 observed)
Average power=75
With Leech
Weapon power=168
Min power=38
Peak power=81 (80 observed)
Average power=81
power goes down to 38 then up to 81 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Increased weapon power by 4.
Test 5A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=55
Peak power=85
Average power=88
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=55
Peak power=102
Average power=94
power goes down to 65 then up to 102 at a speed based on power regen rate
Test 5B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=38
Peak power=68 (67 observed)
Average power=77
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=38
Peak power=85 (84 observed)
Average power=82
power goes down to 38 then up to 85 at a speed based on power regen rate
Now what else can we do to increase the min power level. There's several things really. Use less weapons or use a weapon that uses no weapon power. Or use warp cores that have resistance to weapon power drain and or Nadion inversion (eng ability). Or weapons cruiser command. Let's try the weapon first.
Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam (0 weapon power cost)
Test 6A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=65
Peak power=95 (94 observed)
Average power=95
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=65
Peak power=112 (111 observed)
Average power=101
power goes down to 65 then up to 112 at a speed based on power regen rate
Test 6B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=50
Peak power=80 (81 observed)
Average power=85
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=50
Peak power=97 (98 observed)
Average power=91
power goes down to 50 then up to 97 at a speed based on power regen rate
Note that the Experimental Rom Plasma Beam does seem to cost 1 Now that's a good question. Try firing 1 other weapon along with the experimental and the weapon power use will be 5 when it should be 0 as the 1st one should be free and experimental should use 0. Makes no sense.
Next i'll test the cruiser weapons command for 25% less weapon power cost along with Experimental beam.
Test 7A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=77
Peak power=107 (106 observed)
Average power=103
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=77
Peak power=124 (123 observed)
Average power=109
power goes down to 77 then up to 124 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 7B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=62
Peak power=92
Average power=93
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=62
Peak power=109
Average power=99
power goes down to 65 then up to 112 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Next i'll test resistance to weapon power drain with the Plasma Integrated Warp Core 10% resist to power drain + the cruiser weapons command for 25% lower weapon power cost plus Experimental beam.
Test 8A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=82
Peak power=112 (110 observed)
Average power=106
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=82
Peak power=125 (hit cap)
Average power=111
power goes down to 81 then up to 125 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 8B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=67
Peak power=97 (98 observed)
Average power=96
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=67
Peak power=114 (115 observed)
Average power=102
power goes down to 67 then up to 114 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Note that the formula for weapon power cost/drain resistance appears to be the following.
Weapon power drain=(P/(1+WC))*(1-R)
where P=weapon power cost
where WC=weapons command for 25% less weapon power cost
where R=resistance rate % of all power levels
To confirm the math for weapon command here's 2 weapons i tested.
beam array
10/(1+25%)=8 Note this matches the weapon tooltip
dual heavy cannon
12/(1+25%)=9.6 Note this matches the weapon tooltip
With the warp core of 10% and weapons command of 25% reduced cost we now have the following.
beam array=(10/(1+25%))*(1-10%)=7.2 Note the extra 10% resist is not indicated on the weapon tooltip.
For FAW you treat it the same as autofiring except add 2.5 per weapon at the end. So that each beams looks like;
beam array=(10/(1+25%))*(1-10%)+2.5=9.7 It's the only thing i could come up with.
OK so here's the weapons i actually use. 1 kinetic cutting beam, 1 experimental rom plasma beam and 6 rom plasma beams. And my weapon power level. Also i use 1 embassy sci console. Using cruiser weapons command and the 10% resist spire warp core shield->weapons and 1 embassy sci console with +31.6 flow caps. And of course my flow cap skill is maxxed out.
Test 9A autofiring
Weapon power=137
using leech console
Min power=82
Peak power=112
Average power=106
power goes down to 82 then up to 119 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 9B Fire at Will
Weapon power=137
using leech console
Min power=67
Peak power=97
Average power=96
power goes down to 67 then up to 97 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Ignoring omega weapon amplifier for a min here i typically hover at the 112 weapon power range just autofiring. As i'm an engineer i can use any EPX ability to increase weapon power. If i use EPTS i gain 10 weapon power and i'll then hover at the 122 weapon power range for autofire and 107 for Fire at Will. Pretty sick actually. Here's a link to my Human Engineer Avenger Beam boat. So far i'm at 25.8k dps during an ISE pug run. No special buffs or consumables are used except a common weapons battery. And FYI i autofire at over 10k dps solo. And i mean i hit spacebar and go make lunch or coffee while doing a foundry farming mission. http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=triggersavengerbeamboat_2920
Now obviously i do use an Experimental Rom Plasma beam. However i do like to run without the Kinetic Cutting beam. Yes i won't get the Omega Amplifier buff. But as i'm an Engineer i have Nadion and EPS to keep weapon power at 125. Plus EPTW and EPTS to help and batteries. I also use the Maco 2pc so it does require a higher then normal power transfer rate. But with the Experimental i don't need it as high as the tests above. I'm at 299%/14.9/sec anyways. So i'm fine there plus weapon power will go up from min at a fairly good rate.
Now you may think that using EPTW or using a weapons battery would keep you from hitting the Min value. That is not the case. All power above 125 is reserved and you will still go down to the Min value but your Peak value is now increased. The exception of course is Nadion and EPS. Both will increase your Min value and Peak value. Of course you can time EPTW or a weapons battery and use it as soon as you hit the min value and it will immediately jump to 125. But the next cycle it will drop to the Min value again.
Conclusions
Get weapon power to 125+ pre buffs, etc
Use warp core with the shield->weapons power mod
Use warp core with resist to power drain
Sorry about the extremely long post. But maybe a few people will read it all. And hopefully benefit by it. Don't take the numbers as being exact as they can be off by up to 3. But it's a very good ballpark to go by.
Let me try to explain this a bit. First what's the minimum weapon power level and how exactly does weapon power drain work. Here's some testing i did.
-Note- This testing would be worse case scenario with all weapons in sync and firing 100% of the time.
-Note- My leech console will give me 16 weapon power when used except as noted
-Note- This is primarily the power use during a firing cycle and not the recover after a cycle.
-Note- I am not concerned with Dual Heavy Cannons as their behavior is completely different.
-Note- Fire at Will costs 12.5 weapon power and not 10. 2.5 of which can not be lowered by resistance to power drain nor reduced weapon power cost from weapons command.
-Update- to explain Min, Peak, and Average values.
Min=When you initially fire all weapons this is the value you should see. This is (Min(weapon power level, 125))-weapon power cost. Remember 1 weapon has no cost. You may see 5 or 10 above this value. If you use 5 beams you will see this value. But with 8 beams it's virtually impossible to see this value.
Peak Value=This is the peak value you see during a firing cycle. (Min(weapon power level, 125))-weapon power cost. Then include leech and any reserve power above 135. Basically this is Min+Leech+reserve. Or Min+Leech+EPTW for example and not to exceed 125. Obviously Max after a firing cycle is cap and you at times hit this cap during a firing cycle as well. But this is not what it means for these tests. Weapon power will increase from the Min value. This is the max value it achieves consistently of the Min value and holds at a steady rate. You will however hit cap even during a firing cycle at times. And at times even hit 0 weapon power. (observable)
Average value=This is the average value your weapon power will be at during a firing cycle. At the beginning of a firing cycle you should be at Min(weapon power, 125). Once the cycle starts you will do down to Min. During the firing cycle you will go up to Peak. So i'm going to assign this value for an average. (Min(Weapon power, 125)+Min+Peak)/3. This number can be rather subjective and isn't meant to be exact in any way.
-Note- Damage via weapon power level. There is a long formula for this. But let me simplify it to make it easy. Go into non sector space and check your weapons tooltip (not the one on the weapons tray). Now do this: listed weapon damage*weapon power*0.02 Let me show some examples.
My weapon tooltip says 480
at 25 weapon power i do 480*25*0.02=240 damage
at 50 weapon power i do 480*50*0.02=480 damage
at 75 weapon power i do 480*75*0.02=720 damage
at 100 weapon power i do 480*100*0.02=960 damage
at 125 weapon power i do 480*125*0.02=1,200 damage
As you can see weapon power level will greatly effect your damage. This first test basically shows how badly your weapon power levels are effected even when weapon power is at 124. Consequently this would also explain why over 50% of the players can't even achieve 10k dps. Not pointing fingers here as the whole purpose of my testing is to benefit everyone and most especially the ones i did more or less point to. Apologies.
Leech=16 power drain
Using 8 beams for 70 weapon power cost.
Test 1A autofiring
Weapon power=124
Min power=54
Peak power=54
Average power=77
With Leach
Weapon power=140
Min power=55
Peak power=70
Average power=83
power goes down to 55 then up to 70 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 1B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=124
Min power=37
Peak power=37
Average power=66
With Leech
Weapon power=140
Min power=38
Peak power=53
Average power=72
power goes down to 38 then up to 53 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Here's a video of test 1 http://youtu.be/hWEVM98MaCc Note that it includes autofiring and Fire at Will. Just a short sample. No leech.
Increased weapon power by 11
Test 2A autofiring
Weapon power=135
Min power=55
Peak power=65
Average power=82
With Leech
Weapon power=151
Min power=55
Peak power=81
Average power=87
power goes down to 55 then up to 81 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 2B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=135
Min power=38
Peak power=48 (47 observed)
Average power=70
With Leech
Weapon power=151
Min power=38
Peak power=64 (63 observed)
Average power=75
power goes down to 38 then up to 64 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Increased weapon power by 5
Test 3A autofiring
Weapon power=140
Min power=55
Peak power=70
Average power=83
With Leech
Weapon power=156
Min power=55
Peak power=86
Average power=89
power goes down to 55 then up to 86 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 3B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=140
Min power=38
Peak power=53 (52 observed)
Average power=72
With Leech
Weapon power=156
Min power=38
Peak power=69 (68 observed)
Average power=77
power goes down to 38 then up to 69 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Next i swap to an Elite Fleet Reinforced warp core for more weapon power. This is the shield->weapon power one. Leech=17 weapon power now as shield increases by 16 for 1.2 additional weapon power.
Test 4A autofiring
Weapon power=151
Min power=55
Peak power=81
Average power=87
With Leech
Weapon power=168
Min power=55
Peak power=98
Average power=93
power goes down to 55 then up to 98 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 4B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=151
Min power=38
Peak power=64 (63 observed)
Average power=75
With Leech
Weapon power=168
Min power=38
Peak power=81 (80 observed)
Average power=81
power goes down to 38 then up to 81 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Increased weapon power by 4.
Test 5A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=55
Peak power=85
Average power=88
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=55
Peak power=102
Average power=94
power goes down to 65 then up to 102 at a speed based on power regen rate
Test 5B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=38
Peak power=68 (67 observed)
Average power=77
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=38
Peak power=85 (84 observed)
Average power=82
power goes down to 38 then up to 85 at a speed based on power regen rate
Now what else can we do to increase the min power level. There's several things really. Use less weapons or use a weapon that uses no weapon power. Or use warp cores that have resistance to weapon power drain and or Nadion inversion (eng ability). Or weapons cruiser command. Let's try the weapon first.
Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam (0 weapon power cost)
Test 6A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=65
Peak power=95 (94 observed)
Average power=95
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=65
Peak power=112 (111 observed)
Average power=101
power goes down to 65 then up to 112 at a speed based on power regen rate
Test 6B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=50
Peak power=80 (81 observed)
Average power=85
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=50
Peak power=97 (98 observed)
Average power=91
power goes down to 50 then up to 97 at a speed based on power regen rate
Note that the Experimental Rom Plasma Beam does seem to cost 1 Now that's a good question. Try firing 1 other weapon along with the experimental and the weapon power use will be 5 when it should be 0 as the 1st one should be free and experimental should use 0. Makes no sense.
Next i'll test the cruiser weapons command for 25% less weapon power cost along with Experimental beam.
Test 7A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=77
Peak power=107 (106 observed)
Average power=103
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=77
Peak power=124 (123 observed)
Average power=109
power goes down to 77 then up to 124 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 7B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=62
Peak power=92
Average power=93
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=62
Peak power=109
Average power=99
power goes down to 65 then up to 112 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Next i'll test resistance to weapon power drain with the Plasma Integrated Warp Core 10% resist to power drain + the cruiser weapons command for 25% lower weapon power cost plus Experimental beam.
Test 8A autofiring
Weapon power=155
Min power=82
Peak power=112 (110 observed)
Average power=106
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=82
Peak power=125 (hit cap)
Average power=111
power goes down to 81 then up to 125 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 8B Using Fire at Will
Weapon power=155
Min power=67
Peak power=97 (98 observed)
Average power=96
With Leech
Weapon power=172
Min power=67
Peak power=114 (115 observed)
Average power=102
power goes down to 67 then up to 114 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Note that the formula for weapon power cost/drain resistance appears to be the following.
Weapon power drain=(P/(1+WC))*(1-R)
where P=weapon power cost
where WC=weapons command for 25% less weapon power cost
where R=resistance rate % of all power levels
To confirm the math for weapon command here's 2 weapons i tested.
beam array
10/(1+25%)=8 Note this matches the weapon tooltip
dual heavy cannon
12/(1+25%)=9.6 Note this matches the weapon tooltip
With the warp core of 10% and weapons command of 25% reduced cost we now have the following.
beam array=(10/(1+25%))*(1-10%)=7.2 Note the extra 10% resist is not indicated on the weapon tooltip.
For FAW you treat it the same as autofiring except add 2.5 per weapon at the end. So that each beams looks like;
beam array=(10/(1+25%))*(1-10%)+2.5=9.7 It's the only thing i could come up with.
OK so here's the weapons i actually use. 1 kinetic cutting beam, 1 experimental rom plasma beam and 6 rom plasma beams. And my weapon power level. Also i use 1 embassy sci console. Using cruiser weapons command and the 10% resist spire warp core shield->weapons and 1 embassy sci console with +31.6 flow caps. And of course my flow cap skill is maxxed out.
Test 9A autofiring
Weapon power=137
using leech console
Min power=82
Peak power=112
Average power=106
power goes down to 82 then up to 119 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Test 9B Fire at Will
Weapon power=137
using leech console
Min power=67
Peak power=97
Average power=96
power goes down to 67 then up to 97 at a speed based on power transfer rate
Ignoring omega weapon amplifier for a min here i typically hover at the 112 weapon power range just autofiring. As i'm an engineer i can use any EPX ability to increase weapon power. If i use EPTS i gain 10 weapon power and i'll then hover at the 122 weapon power range for autofire and 107 for Fire at Will. Pretty sick actually. Here's a link to my Human Engineer Avenger Beam boat. So far i'm at 25.8k dps during an ISE pug run. No special buffs or consumables are used except a common weapons battery. And FYI i autofire at over 10k dps solo. And i mean i hit spacebar and go make lunch or coffee while doing a foundry farming mission. http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=triggersavengerbeamboat_2920
Now obviously i do use an Experimental Rom Plasma beam. However i do like to run without the Kinetic Cutting beam. Yes i won't get the Omega Amplifier buff. But as i'm an Engineer i have Nadion and EPS to keep weapon power at 125. Plus EPTW and EPTS to help and batteries. I also use the Maco 2pc so it does require a higher then normal power transfer rate. But with the Experimental i don't need it as high as the tests above. I'm at 299%/14.9/sec anyways. So i'm fine there plus weapon power will go up from min at a fairly good rate.
Now you may think that using EPTW or using a weapons battery would keep you from hitting the Min value. That is not the case. All power above 125 is reserved and you will still go down to the Min value but your Peak value is now increased. The exception of course is Nadion and EPS. Both will increase your Min value and Peak value. Of course you can time EPTW or a weapons battery and use it as soon as you hit the min value and it will immediately jump to 125. But the next cycle it will drop to the Min value again.
Conclusions
Get weapon power to 125+ pre buffs, etc
Use warp core with the shield->weapons power mod
Use warp core with resist to power drain
Sorry about the extremely long post. But maybe a few people will read it all. And hopefully benefit by it. Don't take the numbers as being exact as they can be off by up to 3. But it's a very good ballpark to go by.
U.S. ARMY CAVALRY SCOUT/DRAGOON DISABLED VETERAN
Post edited by dragonsbite on
0
Comments
Another thing to mention is that while EptW may not benefit you in overcap it will benefit your energy weapons by giving you a 10-15% damage boost to them. Similarly leech also may not benefit weapon overcap if you have it high enough already but it can help bring engine, shield and aux power over 75 for the warp core damage buff too. Also don't forget aux power and the nukara T4 passive.
So before someone starts screaming that there's no point using certain things as it doesn't benefit your overcap, sure it doesn't but it increases damage in other areas.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I hope people understand what i meant by min and max weapon power levels. As regards power transfer rate and ensuring you don't go below the min value. This should not be a problem at all if you have the cruiser weapons command. And that resist to power drain is the better option warp core for non romulans. However a lot of romulans prefer the dil mine singularity core so that they can get 4 power levels at 75. This may present a problem if there isn't someone there doing the weapons command. And even with that i believe they'd still require points into EPS. How much i don't know. But maxxing it would be best as recovery is quicker.
heero139, ya i don't quite understand it. I was shocked when my weapon power went to zero on some of the tests. Weapon power does recover fully after a cycle. It's the firing during a cycle where recovery can be a problem. Maybe back when they made the changes to base resistance is when this happened. I don't recall it working quite this way a year ago. Or if it did i never noticed it. It's as if weapon power now goes back up to 125 in 1.5 sec or so instead of instantly. However maybe this is a good thing as it makes EPS very useful now. And with our gear and resist and weapon power cost reductions i think we're ok. But people leveling up and still needing gear may want to look at what i posted so they can determine what's best for them.
The weapons do refund their spent power immediately at the time their fire cycle finishes (for beams, this is 4 seconds after beginning to fire).
However, if your target dies mid-cycle, the weapons stop firing, but the power is refunded at the same time as they would if they had continued firing.
If you select a new target, and start firing at that target before the previous fire cycle's time is over, you drain more power to fire those weapons before the old fire cycle's weapon power is refunded, and the power shifts back up when the old cycle's time ended.
Interestingly, this also means that under FAW, since target selection is random, you will use power more efficiently than when autofiring with no buffs. Hooray for more reasons to use FAW?
I didn't test FAW, only autofire. FAW since it hits twice per weapon i would assume that each hit uses 1/2 the weapons power. This would mean at most 8 weapons would hit once then .25 sec or whatever later 8 more hits. So recovery would be slightly better. Or does each weapon hit 2 times instantly? Test that while i sleep. lol
1. The min value is obtained by subtracting the power consumed by your weapons from your current weapon power or 135, whichever is lower. The max value is obtained by subtracting the power consumed by your weapons from your uncapped weapon power.
2. At the beginning of the firing cycle, your weapon power drops to the min value. During the firing cycle, your weapon power increases to the max value at a speed based on your power transfer rate. At the end of the firing cycle, weapon power should return instantly, but there is an observable delay now.
3. The drain resistance granted by the cruiser command "Weapon System Efficiency" works differently from the drain resistance granted by plasma-integrated warp cores.
Some questions:
A. Does the skill "Power Insulators" affect weapon power drain from firing weapons? One wouldn't normally think so, but I'm now suspicious.
B. Plasma-integrated warp cores also grant "+66% to base regeneration rate of all Power Levels". How does this work? Does it work like the skill "Starship Electro-Plasma Systems", or does it use a different mechanic?
2) Basically yes except the leech will increase it. Also regen rate may not be sufficient to hit max. Also the problem of power regen is during a firing cycle. After a firing cycle is complete there is sufficient time to regen power to cap. So the problem is only during a firing cycle and not between firing cycles.
3) Yes, they use a different equation. And while i'm not 100% sure of the resist% equation, testing showed it to be fairly accurate. Also energy drain resistance would be another equation. All of which would be combined into 1 overall formula.
A) No, power insulators will not effect weapon power drain to increase the min or max value. However it can and does effect countering of drains by abilities used against you by other players and npcs, etc. Although i did completely spec out of this and maybe i should test this to verify.
So all my testing was using Autofire. I've since begun testing of Fire At Will. So far testing shows the Min value to be the same. So this means that as it hits 2 times that the weapon power cost is divided by 2. However the max value is drastically effected by regen rate. Here's a quick example of autofiring vs Fire at Will.
Autofiring using 8 beams arrays
copy of test 5
Weapon power=155
Min power=65
Max power=85
With Leech
min power=65
max power=102
Fire at Will using 8 beam arrays
Weapon power=155
Min power=65
Max power=66
With Leech
min power=65
max power=83
See the drastic decrease of the max value. I'll have to test some more and include FAW results in my OP. The results are rather shocking.
edit: Er, basically it's a case that I do not see what the OP sees. Basically, it's a case I've never seen what the OP describes. It's one of the reasons that I almost always argue against what sax posted...why I point to the different drain mechanics between Beams and Cannons, etc, etc, etc.
That video was recorded while the forums were down on Tribble with a toon I no longer have on Holodeck, Prophet, a KDF Engineer in a Mogh using 8 beams....AtB, EPtW/EPtS, EPS Manifold Efficiency, Plasmonic Leech, flipping some batts, hitting up EPS Power Transfer, running Nadion, running the Weapon Cruiser Command...at various stages, showing where there's no 135 hidden cap.
"Base" Weapon Power: 124 (possibly rounded up or down to 124)
Using Havelock's PowerCalc, we can take a look at where the various buffs would take that power level. Heck, we can take a look at how we got to the 124 first and move on from there...
Trait: Efficient Captain
Warp Core Efficiency - 6
Warp Core Potential - 6
Engine Performance - 6
Shield Performance - 6
Auxiliary Performance - 0
Weapon Performance - 0
Ship: Mogh/Battle Cruiser
Dyson Combat Engines (+2.5 Aux, Eng, Shields)
Dyson Core (+12.5 Shields) <---curious, eh?
Borg Console (+5 Weapons)
Nukara Console (+5 Shields)
0Point Console (+1.8 All)
Proton Console (+3 Weapon, Engines)
And thus we reach the 124/100, 89/50, 66/25, 44/25 power levels the ship was running.
Firing 8 beams at this point, should give us 124 - 70 = 54. But you're not likely to see that, cause right off the back it's a case of boosting power.
Using EPtS1 will boost Weapon Power to 134. Yep, EPS Manifold...+10 Power. 134 - 70 = 64. Wasn't much of that going on was there?
EPtW1 itself is giving him +25.8 taking it to 159.8. -70 = 89.8...and there's a number (well, 90) that shows up a bit, right?
AtB1's giving anywhere from 2.3 to 18+, which is going to have us in that 90-100 range...that shows up quite a bit, eh?
EPS Power Transfer kicks in another +34, taking us to (no AtB) 193.8. -70 = 123.8, which you see where it's not dropping below 120.
That's without the Leech aspect...
You can watch the power bouncing all over the place as different buffs kick in and wear off...but uh...it doesn't match the OP, eh?
I know the effort you put in is a lot, and I, as many others, are very, very grateful, but as someone who has a Rom toon ... POWER and Power Drain is a very important factor to Romulans.
1. You say that power transfer rate affects how fast you go from min power to max power. But how do you know that this effect isn't specific to plasmonic leech? Did you test other sources of power besides leech, such as weapons batteries? Basically, my question is how do you know power transfer rate really affects how fast power regenerates during the firing cycle rather than how fast leech boosts weapon power?
2. You seem to be saying that power transfer rate affects your max power. So max power is not solely a function of your weapon power bonuses? Maybe, you can elaborate, because I'm not sure I understand you correctly.
3. You were using an Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam Array in test 7, correct? So the total power drain should be 6*8 = 48. Below, I put what I think the min and max power should be in red.
The values for max power might be due to rounding. The min power seems to be calculated as if the Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam Array were a regular beam.
I updated the OP a bit as i don't think people quite understand what i meant by min and max. I also added a Peak and average value. I included Fire at Will testing for tests 5 and 6. I'll include more as i finish them.
As regards power regen. Scroll 2/3rds down my OP where i increased regen rate to keep from having weapon power drop to 0. I also later tested and observed a higher average with an increase in regen rate. But i did not include that in my tests. It's to hard to put a number on it. Perhaps i can come up with a formula. Doubt i will though.
Not sure what to make of virusdancer's video. It is showing the benefits of firing weapons out of sync. So if that's it's purpose then it's proved it's value. It's also showing weapon power going back up to 125 during and after a firing cycle. Which is also true. It's not an apples to apples comparison. Mine is worse case scenario with all weapons being in sync and firing 100% of the time. I'll update my OP to include this point and include more comments about max power to avoid some confusion.
Thank you very, very much for your hard work; not only doing the experiment, but reporting it in such detail. This is exactly the sort of post I like to see: it adds new valuable information to the discussions.
Except I never saw Saxfire, or anyone else, post the details of their experimental analysis. It is one thing to say things work in such a way, it is another to show it with experimental evidence. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Saxfire et. al. bringing this mechanic to the attention of the population at large; I don't mean to diminish their contribution. I just feel that perhaps your comment diminishes the contribution, the long extra mile, of the OP. Also, I should add, I believe the fact about the extra 135 "pseudo-cap" and how it exactly works, had never been brought to light before: so again, kudos to the OP for his enlightening work.
Hopefully, such detailed information will finally lay to rest the discussion, and people will stop doubting how the drain mechanics works. And instead of arguing whether there is an issue, we can press Cryptic to address it, and hopefully solve it.
Or maybe not.
I would suspect that the effect which caused your power to ever go below the minimum level has nothing to do with EPS transfer rate, and only has anything to do with the targets you were shooting at to test.
When I first read your post (yes, I read it all) this didn't make any sense to me either.
Then, as I went to bed I started wondering how your work, the mechanics it describes, extends to the case of weapons with different energy costs. Consider your average tac-scort, with DHCs (maybe DC in the mix) up front, and turrets in the back. Turrets drain 8 energy during a two shot cycle. DHCs drain 12 for a one-shot cycle. All weapons say that they only drain energy when other weapons fire. So, one weapon gets to fire "for free": but which one? The costliest? Does the DHC fire for free? The cheapest? A random one? In your (usual) setup, with all beams, you don't see this issue come up, because all weapons have the same cost.
No. It makes more sense to average the cost of all weapons, and then "reimburse" the average cost of one weapon drain. Suppose you have N weapons, with different energy costs. When you fire the game takes the sum total of all their costs, S, take the average weapon cost, and then multiplies that cost by the number of weapons firing minus one. So the total drain D becomes:
D = S * (N-1)/N
In this scenario, the romulan beam is simply a weapon with 0 energy cost: this 0, though, gets averaged with the rest of the weapons.
Of course, this is just a hypothesis, but we can test it. In the case of one regular beam and the experimental romulan beam S = 10 + 0 = 10. N = 2. Hence, D = 5. This coincides, and explains, the strange behaviour you observed.
In the case of 7 regular beams + Romulan Experimental beam you have S = 70, N = 8; hence
D = 70 * (7/8) = 61.25
Which would coincide with your observations depending on how the GUI reports fractional drains (floor, or ceiling?) A good way to confirm, or falsify, my hypothesis would be to run the experiment with 4 regular beams and the romulan experimental beam. Then N = 5, S = 40, therefore:
D = 40 * 4 / 5 = 32.
32 is a nice integer. If my hypothesis is correct, then you should see 32 drain. This is opposed to the usual assumed arithmetic, that has two weapons firing "for free" the experimental beam, and one of the regular ones. This would give you a total drain of 30. It should be easy to test. Any takers? Dragonsbite, you willing to do the honours?
This makes a lot of sense. It would explain the discrepancy in max power in test 7; the min power is still weird though.
When overcapping to mitigate weapons power drain, does it make sense to go beyond the maximum potential drain value? In other words, if I have 7 beams firing - for a total drain cost of 48 (6x8) - then my target overcap should be 173 (125+48), correct? However, I know for a fact that I'm going well beyond that with my combination of:
Weapons Power Setting (125)
Leech (16)
EPtW1 (22)
Aux2Batt (25)
For a total of 188 (213 if my WCE procs)
So...am I wasting roughly 15 points of power by running weapons at 125? And will I materially hurt my damage output if I drop it to 110 and throw some points at shields/engines/aux?
Note: As it stands, I have my energy levels tuned so that, in a mixed A2B/A2D hybrid cycle, I get a full 75 points in Aux when the power sloshes back while my 1x A2B is on CD. This is enough to put the subsystems into AMP territory and give me the full 13.2% damage boost from my Elite Fleet Reinforced Warp Core.
Of course, it also means A2B isn't flooding my weapons subsystem with 25 (or more) extra points at this juncture, so my effective overcap is more like 163 during this off cycle, perhaps mitigating some of the gain from the additional AMP proc.
Frankly, things are working fairly well as is, but if I'm wasting power by running weapons at 125 vs. 110 then I'm inclined to do some tweaking.
Thoughts?
RCK
rck01, also during testing i accidentally had my weapon power set at 95 instead of 100. I kept writing down my observations and they made no sense for Min value as they were off by 5. I later noticed the incorrect weapon power setting. I would hazzard to guess that the hidden cap is weapon power setting+35. By hidden cap we know this is the power level at which weapon power cost is subtracted from. So reducing the setting to say 90 would lower the hidden cap to 125? May have to test this as well as i'm not positive of my observations.
If you use a battery or EPTW it will not increase the Min value. It increases the Max value. However if you use it while going down to Min it will immediately go up to cap. However next firing cycle it will go back down to Min. But the max value is still increased as you still have the extra reserve. So it will go back up again. Not sure i'm explaining that right. I'd have to fully test this as well. But it always appeared to work this way in the past.
Cerealplayer, well that is an interesting theory. And it's a very inventive one. It might actually work that way. Ok i'm convinced that i really need to test it with 4 weapons as you suggested.
heeroy139, i don't see why i'd have to shoot targets that live a long time. Yes it would be easier and less time consuming. But it will not effect my results. I remove tac consoles and shoot at a sufficient range to ensure it takes from 4-10 firing cycles to kill the target. For each test i repeat this at a min of 56 times and a max of 112 times. Which sadly means lots of hours testing. Regen is more then sufficient with base 100% regen i believe to fully recover all weapon power after a firing cycle completes. The regen problem or the the part that we need to worry about only appears to be the firing cycle itself and not the recovery of one cycle to the next cycle.
Also an FYI i wanted to quickly check weapon power drain when using Fire at Will. I went with a setup sort of close to test 1 and immediately weapon power went to Min as it should and then dropped like a rock below the Min value. That only took 1 second to observe this. However i will still test vs 56 targets to see if the behavior stay consistent.
And to explain the so called hidden cap. It's the max power needed to increase the Min value. 135 is the max point that weapon power cost is subtracted from. Going above 135 increases the Max value. Which consequently increases the average value. So going above 135 is extremely beneficial.
Either way, it's the surplus energy that gets channeled in a way that's superior to the normal recharge cycle. Otherwise, what's the point of overcapping at all? If only EPS efficiency and drain resist matter, then why not just run weapons power at the minimum level which, when combined with various booster mechanics/buffs (leech, a2b, eptw1), adds up to the cap?
Of course, in real-world practice you'd be crazy to do this as your weapons would end-up woefully underpowered. There's theory, and then there's practical experience. And what you're describing seems to fly in the face of the latter.
FWIW, I have had my best runs through ISE with the combination of 2x A2B, a Mark 12 VR EPS console (for +80% transfer rate) and a healthy overcap of 188-213. My takeway from this was that the overcap was critical but that the efficiency with which the weapons subsystem could draw from that excess power and use it to replenish the level was tied to EPS.
Note: I'm a Tac captain, so power level management is secondary to my stated job function.
RCK
1 weapons=0 weapon power cost
2 weapons=5 weapon power cost
3 weapons=13 weapon power cost
4 weapons=22 weapon power cost
5 weapons=32 weapon power cost
6 weapons=42 weapon power cost
7 weapons=51 weapon power cost
8 weapons=61 weapon power cost
Note that this doesn't quite match my previous testing with 8 beams. However i was using the equipment of test 1 except i swapped in the experimental rom beam. Not sure what to make of these results.
Excellent work. These are the numbers my little pet "theory" predicts:
1 weapon = 0.00
2 weapons = 5.00
3 weapons = 13.33
4 weapons = 22.50
5 weapons = 32.00
6 weapons = 41.67
7 weapons = 51.43
8 weapons = 61.25
I would say that the theory matches the experimental results beautifully. Theory confirmed! It's only unfortunate that this is merely STO mechanics, rather than, say, quantum mechanics. Otherwise, we'd have a paper on our hands.
Which would be the expected numbers with no overcap. 124 eating 70 would drop to 54 for 4 seconds with the power being returned during the 5th second. It showed the quirky issue of actually getting more power back briefly than expected (as you can see it returning to 125 (potentially higher) before dropping back to 124). It also showed that as weapons end up firing out of sync you experience increased drain, as the "first" weapon is lost. Well, that's the way I've always looked at the increased drain issue that happens as weapons fire out of sync.
It's just what I've seen over the years. It's also the reason that I never run 8 beams, lol. It's a PITA to try to keep the overcap going for that many. 5-7 beams, depending on the build and can usually keep Weapon Power at 100-125. In the end, it usually ends up being that 5 Rom Plas, Experimental, Hyper-Plasma, and Kinetic Beam or 6 AP, OD AP, and Kinetic Beam.
But that's not what I see...hrmmm. Let me park on SB234 (I'll pull Leech)...start with the base, add in buffs to boost Weapon Power, and see what it does to that bottom number...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l64tGJAfv0
...and can see where as overcap is added, the number we drop to increases. As time goes on and they end up more out of sync, we can even see where it forgets the "first" weapon (really not sure of a better way to say that) and it's dropping 10 more power than the math would suggest it should.
This isn't a bug. It was a change made by the devs a long time ago.
It was -THE- stupidest change they ever made aside from..well all the changes they made in the F2P patch.
You have found the #2 reason why this game's dps output is so out of control. Ship weapons do not lose power and damage output from sustained fire because of this.
Personally I think they did this to cater to the horde of escorts that existed at the time. dual heavy cannons pre-f2p literally could only fire 2 or 3 bursts before their power level drained so much they were doing little damage.
...which is why they had attack omega and beta ...and why the damn escorts were never supposed to be able to sit in space spewing massive damage. They were supposed to be hit and run ships striking the weak shield facing.
...but anyway, all your testing and efforts are appreciated but ultimately irrelevant. The devs are NOT interested in balancing the game or fixing past TRIBBLE ups. All they are interested in is making new gimmick ships to sell and milk this dying cow of a game until there's no more to be milked.
Now try to find the so called hidden cap via gear and no abilities. So far my testing is gear only. I'll test and cover the use of abilities later and see if the hidden cap increases. Which should increase the min value. However i'm not at this stage yet as i want to know the hidden cap pre abilities.
Increase weapon power to 125 via gear and you'll see that min is now 55. Change gear again to achieve 135 and min is now 65. Change gear to 150 and min is still 65. Which shows a hidden cap of 135 which weapon power cost is subtracted from.
Note that when you used EPTS you gained 10 weapon power as you're an engineer which increased weapon power from 124 to 134 which changed min from 54 to 64. It looks like min increased to 75 when you used EPTW. Which is odd as i would have though it would have increased to 65 only. This is good info as it suggests that the hidden cap will increase to above 135 with abilities. But the hidden cap increased to 145. Which suggests that using EPTW increased the hidden cap by 10 from 135 to 145. I'll have to test and verify this odd behavior. Or the behavior may be fine in that your EPTW increased weapon power by 21. Which suggests that min and max both increased and by expected values.
The bug I was referring to was not that the weapons returned their power instantly without using the recharge rate. That's normal.
What I was referring to is that the power is returned 4 seconds after the weapon begins firing (for beam arrays), regardless of whether the weapon remained firing for the entire 4 seconds. This is relevant if you are shooting at targets that might die mid-fire cycle, as you would begin a new fire cycle less than 4 seconds after the beginning of the previous cycle, while the previous cycle's power drain is still in effect. This means that your weapons are actually draining 20 power per weapon, and not 10, for a second or two. (It might also be possible to presume from this that the new fire cycle would fire at a significantly reduced damage level from what they should be)
The change was made for cruisers. There used to be a soft cap of 125 with a hard cap of 135 then they made a hard cap of 125 the cruisers cried and they reomved the cap all together. Cannon escorts really do not benefit from over capping like cruisers. If they could or did ships would be melting under CRF barrages.