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Is it me or.....?
naz4
Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
Is it me or is it the current state of STO right now that has almost completely taken the shine off PvP at this point in time?
Apart from TD right now and just plain and simple messing in the queues, there just isn't anything right now motivating me to organise tournaments or set up premade matches. Imagine the possible qq'ing that could happen.
It just struck me today when I asked one of my friends why he isn't PvPing lately. His response "There's just too many wrong things out in the game to let PvP be enjoyable like it used to be".
The following I believe has killed PvP right now:
Supper Bosted FaW - When you see a whole team with one ship doing the same thing and just rolling everything in front making all other ships redundant, you know something isn't right. From a PvE point of view, STF's in less than 3 minutes including Hive Space Elite? Working as intended?
Pet Beta stacking - Being stacked with Beta in the double digits is just, hmmmm.... feeling like wet Kleenex in front of anything?
Rapid VolderSwap - No comments.....
On the plus side, if you take away the the above, the science dudes in the game have never had it this good. Almost all the science abilities are useful again without being overpowered (Apart from mayb the drain abilities). I've not had this much fun in Sci ships for ages.....
Engineers, well...... Good for trying to survive against FaW and be deadly FaW machines at the same time?
I just want your constructive thoughts on if you feel the same, what specific things stirred those feelings for you and why.
If season 9 is meant to be all about PvP and these issues are not addressed sooner rather than later, it might just be a wasted investment from Cryptic at the wrong time sadly.
Apart from TD right now and just plain and simple messing in the queues, there just isn't anything right now motivating me to organise tournaments or set up premade matches. Imagine the possible qq'ing that could happen.
It just struck me today when I asked one of my friends why he isn't PvPing lately. His response "There's just too many wrong things out in the game to let PvP be enjoyable like it used to be".
The following I believe has killed PvP right now:
Supper Bosted FaW - When you see a whole team with one ship doing the same thing and just rolling everything in front making all other ships redundant, you know something isn't right. From a PvE point of view, STF's in less than 3 minutes including Hive Space Elite? Working as intended?
Pet Beta stacking - Being stacked with Beta in the double digits is just, hmmmm.... feeling like wet Kleenex in front of anything?
Rapid VolderSwap - No comments.....
On the plus side, if you take away the the above, the science dudes in the game have never had it this good. Almost all the science abilities are useful again without being overpowered (Apart from mayb the drain abilities). I've not had this much fun in Sci ships for ages.....
Engineers, well...... Good for trying to survive against FaW and be deadly FaW machines at the same time?
I just want your constructive thoughts on if you feel the same, what specific things stirred those feelings for you and why.
If season 9 is meant to be all about PvP and these issues are not addressed sooner rather than later, it might just be a wasted investment from Cryptic at the wrong time sadly.
Post edited by naz4 on
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its just all the escapes for me. there must be about 50 oh$#@! consoles out there...
just seems like kills are crazy difficult to come by these days....unless you use one of the many shutdown consoles....which there are more than just a few also.
idunno....but yeah... the fun factor has diminished. and the role of the pilot even more so...
but at least we still get to fly starships huh?
But, but, but...
I need my Alpha Deception Field so I can Feign Death!
Yeah, with a cloak that's over 2k better than my REBC cloak...meh.
Can do that in eve sir horizon
Class balance seems to be better now, all the 3th classes are usefull in pvp. Engis still need a team buff skill, but well...the current metagame has put the need for a hard to kill healer back in the picture, and faw allow them to make a decent damage support (like in the old times)
Imo the problem with FAW is with scimitards (and maybe other romulans ships that can fit that style, but none being as powerfull as the scimi with 8weapons+5tactial consoles), the rest of the ships can be handled without too much work. I'm fine with FAW being usefull in pvp, but the scimitard-style is too much.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
You know...now that you mention it, I'm reminded of the reason Foundry Missions got a rewards revamp...they didn't last long enough. It's funny that the STF's now take a shorter amount of time than the old Nagus Dailies. And yet they still give out all those rewards. But make a 14 minute long foundry mission? Nah, too short for rewards. Play our 2 minute ISE instead! :rolleyes:
I do enjoy the 2-3 min HSE runs (around 1:40 is the record these days I think?), it's a convenient source or marks and dil, but the thing that makes PVE unattractive to me nowadays is the lack or diversity in ships and playstyles. Only 3 ships have a reason to exist: Scimi to do DPS, Recluse to make that Scimi do even more DPS, and the Fleet Arkif which is super OP for NWS with beta stacking yellowstones and such.
I am actually quite impressed by the idea of FAW Scimitars in PVP - there is finally a build after a long time which has no real counter. The ultimate PVP setup? Perhaps, but naturally such a concept is immediately met with negative reactions all over the place, as there can't be one ship to rule them all - that would just eventually lead to the same lack of diversity in ships and playstyles that we are already experiencing in PVE play. Nevertheless FAW Scimitars being able to faceroll every other possible PVP setup with hardly any effort still brings a smile to my face...
The way stuff stacks in this game is complete lunacy.
You cannot balance this game without a penalty to stacking or else you can get 5 people to spam something till the cows come home. There's almost nothing in this game you cannot spam with 5 people and it won't be stupid OP.
The way everything and especially damage/tactical buffs stack and the amount of passive healing is stupid too.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Well, we still have the "adapt or die, stop QQ'ing and pick up a different TRIBBLE driver" mouth breathers who still enjoy abusing most of this ****, but even they are coming to some sort of realisation now.
There was never really any 'shine' in STO PvP to begin with. if you look at ANY Cryptic MMO (past or present going back to the addition of PvP in "City of Heroes" back in 2005); you'll find that Cryptic as an MMO developer has NEVER implemented any PvP system well to date, and STO (unfortunately) is no exception.
But, for better or worse I keep delving into what there is of STO PvP, myself; and the one thing that maintains these past 4 years is either you adapt to the FotM builds, with the horribly unbalanced universal consoles, or die a VERY cheesy death; and if it gets too frustrating, take a break, and or move on.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
agreed, definitely the most poorly thought out passive. But the stacking and unrestricted universal consoles is what really killed it for me.... oh, and Romulans. It was unbelievably poor game design to make a new faction that completely obsoletes damage dealers in the existing Factions. It was a great short-term business decision though. I don't think that Cryptic/PWE realize the true cash cow that they have in front of them. There are lots of Star Trek fans, and lots of them are gamers. Well, gamers laugh at STO. It's a joke. If Cryptic had designed a challenging PvE game with enjoyable PvP attached, well, it would have been epic. Longevity of players would have become the goal, instead of this high turnover, cash grab that we have now. Oh, and they might actually have attracted the "whales" of the gaming world, who spend thousands on games that they play.
I honestly think what affected PVP the most is LoR with all the OP ships with battlecloak, being pretty much 2x better then any kdf ship. Thats what kept the balance back in the old days where only FEd/KDF was there. Battlecloaks in return for major ship stat nerfs. What do we have now, full fledged Warbirds better then anything (figure of speech) and on top of that, massively increased crit, possibility of having 25% flat damage for 15. perhaps 20 seconds in a row. FaW that just needs a single touch and pretty much deals insane amounts of damage without having to steer your ship (Barely anyway). lol.
Its just a total mess. The saddest thing is, everyone can pull it off these days. The days where single individuals were praised for their ability to make the impossible, possible, are pretty much gone too.
Team based play, its not even definite that the pre-setup team won because of skill or such these days.
Personally at this moment i crave back to the old days with 3 hour matches. At least it wasnt over within 5 minutes.
Lets all pray for the upcoming 2 years we reach the theoretical limit of 100% Critical Chance, and so much doffs and stuff filled that literally all your abilities have zero cooldown haha.
GG
I feel super sad for new PvPers wanting to get into it. Its probably impossible by now.
ok /sarcarm mode off.
I sincerely hope that this massive imbalance will effect PVE so much that they are forced to look at their game mechanic for a month and totally revamp all skills/consoles. Until that moment, DREAM OF STAR CITIZEN!!!
lol....
hey Z!!!!
Skill is getting replaced by gimmicks. Sad.
Training a newcomer, showing him how to steer a ship, positioning, reading buffs, timing timing timing, explaining common team strategies, tactics, practise matches.... pffft whom I kidding just give'em a fawmitard build and a spacebar.
I somehow feel bad for those up and coming fleets like 32nd vipers, vice squad, or 7. flotte. They are "growing up" in a messed up pvp environment. And the vets are failing as role models.
That my dear, has been the case for some time now. I'd say reconnaisssance, intuition, familiarity, and all those things are more and more replacing actual raw skill as the deciding factors for victories or losses. Oh and the gimmicks, how could I forget. Bring gimmicks and lets hope your gimmicks are stronger than the opponents gimmicks. You forgot your gimmicks in the bank? Too bad, because then you lost.
I once played a card game called swccg (similar to magic). Every now and then a badly balanced, overpowered card got released. All you had to do then, was to put as many copies of that card into your deck as you could buy, and you would win all the time. These kind of decks were called "numbers decks".
It was totally TRIBBLE. At the end, it killed the game.
5x faw scims. What a stupid game. If you want to counter them, you'd probably also have to bring 4-5 other op ****. "Number decks" retardation at its finest.
In order to be competitive at the high levels you must find the most broken and OP mechanic and then use it ad nauseum until the queues quit on a nightly basis.
You must also spend billions of EC or whatever else to constantly keep ahead of the gear curve or you totally fail.
Playing clean is a bad idea, even if it puts a terrible taste in your mouth, cheese is the bees knees and youd best have about four different sets of cheese on each ship you fly to swap out to counter the other teams cheese whenever you see it.
Everyone complains about cheese, bad sportsmanship, pugstomping, and borked mechanics, and then use/do them all themselves constantly. Hypocrisy is king.
gg is actually code for "thanks for being trolled"
There is too much of EVERYTHING, damage, heals, resistances, speed, stealth, control, drain, everything.
Zone chat is only useful for seeing how badly you just pissed off your opponent and made them quit.
The more vapers you have the better. If someone on your team is visible and subject to actually being targeted for more than two seconds, you must ask them to leave as to avoid giving your opponent any chance of shooting you while you vape them in 2 seconds flat.
Failing the above, use three or four zombie healers to ensure no one dies on your team while you vape your opponent one at a time once every five minutes when all your CDs reset. (this is my latest irritant thats really chafing me, the 3 zombie two vaper BS)
That pretty much sums up STO PvP for me.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
And those of us that don't do those things (I've never possessed more than 20mil EC on all toons combined in 4 years and have spent less than $50 since f2p), just end up getting left behind by those that do. The current state of PvP in STO is beyond repair. They couldn't fix it without pissing off everyone else. It just won't happen. I gave (past tense) up.
Then wait five minutes for him to come back, while meanwhile flailing uselessly at three zombie healers circlejerking each other. Just a pure borefest. I wanted to leave the match but my friends kept telling me I should stay. I felt sick really. Over a half hour blown on one of the worst snores of a match ive ever experienced in any game.
Faw is nothing, vapers (and groups built around them) are destroying PvP.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
That isn't completely true... they could fix it and make every PvP players happy... and not annoy one single PvE kid. Well to be honest there is a portion of the PvP population in any game that enjoys being able to grind out/pay for stupid Overpowered stuff so they can use it to pop those that are either new / bad / or underfunded. I would say in general if you have ever posted a huge crit number on someone that wasn't on your friends list in a public channel you may perhaps fall into the PvTroll Catagory... they might not be happy, with the only fix I think we all know is viable at this point.
The fix though is simple... spin PvP off into its own... give us all a PvP ship doll.. Give us all free PvP gear that offers selection but no real advantages... Disallow uni consoles and gear sets at all. (provide standard shield engine defelector console and weapon options). If need be tweak skills for PvP maps. (perhaps a simple -10% self healing and dmg on a PvP map)
By doing that they could create an entire new PvP zone for people to fight in in that mode.
The issue is Cryptic doesn't have the vision to see how that makes them $. They don't see that ex customers have zero upside. I have stated earlier I have been just around for 2 years staying geared and have really not spent any of my own money. (Yes I understand there system means someone was buying my D and throwing money at the EC system I have helped turn) Still point is happy customers are more likely to buy stuff even if its silly vanity stuff just to support a developer that provides an actual fun game. (for all of us that have been here for a year or more... look at your friends list and count how many don't log in... how many do you guess would log in if they heard Cryptic has created a completely BS free PvP system that is fun engaging and offers an open zone + super balanced Team based modes... I know on my list I can pick out 3 or 4 names that I know for a fact where all spending $100+ a month, if we all know 2 people like that and 10 that spend even $20 its pretty clear to see where Cryptics Profits from such a system come from... and if we are as small a community as they like to say, they loose very little anyway)
and there you have another problem. Vapers were the solution to the ridiculous amount of resists a player could have stacked on them. They're almost necessary, especially when you consider all the garbage out there that basically gives anyone using it a "get out of jail free" card (voth shield, team fortress, backstep, ICC, singularity jumps, etc.). The extremes of the spectrum are so out of whack it's almost incomprehensible how any game designer who takes pride in their work could allow it to get this bad. That tells me that Cryptic really doesn't care about the quality of their game, only the amount of cash they can milk out of it. Remember when 3d game designers were considered artists? LOL, not anymore.
Now, even if they're in the bank, thanks to Quick Equip, you don't have a problem XD.
*checks geko's podcast*
nope ,he said they will have to give all npcs more hp and resistence.
Awesome game design.Imagine if the same "amazing" design would go in phones ,cars ,planes and other every day objects .
yup
The jump-of point has long past.
Cryptics approach to "solid endgame" doesn't work. I don't have the money or time to keep up with my mains, and the amount of PvE required for my alts to get them into pvp (if there still were such a thing) is appalling. I bought the scimi 3xpack when it came out, because I was waiting for rommies from day 1. After one day i switched back to something less TRIBBLE. Such imbalances are hardly ever fun in games. GG Geko
This game will always have "wheeeeeeeeeee" d'deridex, but lately pushing some ship models around my desk making *swooosh* sounds became a lot more attractive.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
By the time LotR/LoR/Space-peasants-who-blew-up-their-farm came and gave us completely unbalanced Romulans as a Fed/KDF subset, I was so disgusted by Cryptic that I decided not to play a Romulan. And to this day I still have not levelled a Romulan character.
3 years ago, I would have been willing to give them substantial amounts of money even for just cosmetic fluff, these days I'd cheer if they announced that they were bankrupt and had to shut down the servers.
It's sad that there is no other game out there that has a similar basic gameplay. Capital ship combat in pseudo-3d. I don't want full 3d and I don't want TieFighter-like combat (although I do think that TieFighter is one of the best pc games ever made).
Maybe it was when Star Trek: Infinite Space got cancelled (that F2P Star Trek (browser?) MMO) that Cryptic finally did not have to restrain themselves anymore. They did not have to worry about the details of customer retention because they knew that there would not be a comparable game in the foreseeable future and so they decided to go into "monetise everything!!!!" mode.
At least in the early days we used to hear things like CBS doesn't want X or Y or won't let us use this or that. (I seem to remember even come colors being off limits according to Cryptic). Seems lately they let just about anything go... no mention of CBS not wanting anything or not green lighting anything at all. I mean come on they green lit the Dyson stuff really ?
I guess I'm saying... I blame cryptic for being owned by PWE who is good enough at making $ to entice CBS to completely sell the IP out. In the end when this game does close down I hope we all remember exactly what CBC has done with trek here when/should they ever sell the licence to another developer. CBS stands to loose life time Trek Gaming fans over some of the junk they have let loose on there IP in this game imo. Then again who knows there was lots of really bad trek games in the past. lmao (then again none of those earlier bad games really had any responsibility for canon in the trek universe, STO creates and expands it all the time and often its terribly written and badly executed.)
same on this side of the mirror
Greetz Siegfried
The problem is the universal consoles of any kind.
For example on a vaper: get an iso, get 3-piece dyson set and maybe fleet valdore with ion beam, make a single big flying particle generator of your ship by adding a suitable deflector and consoles, and maybe increase your crit with boffs and some other universal consoles and it is: *clicky-clicky-click* *BOOM* ... you dont even need common weapons anymore, because the clicky-stuff is sooooooo powerful and it cant even partially resisted (proton-damage, electrical-damage ...)
For example on a zombie-heal-cruiser: get your favorite voth ship (cruiser or sci or even both) and instead of actually skill (right spec, right abilities, everything timed good), you can unite all your resistance abilities in 2 shiny universal clicky-consoles! you're in danger? snuggle yourself into a yellowish immune shield-bubble by just doing *click*
In addition you can also go for some more immune bubbles by choosing the right space set ...
that said: its not a question of good timing, choosing the right abilities and skill anymore. its all about this: who *clicky-clicks* faster? the vaper or the zombie?
there are some more examples, but i think those two speak for themselves.
the funny thing is: you still can tank extremly well, if you run a clean clicky-free build. and you even can vape with common weapons without any clicky. there were great suggestions on this forums about vanilla-pvp and so on. but sadly people werent that interested. why is that? because most of the people in here have build their ships arround clickies. so easy it is.
and to be perfectly honest i find it extremly blatant that especially those people who complain about this stuff heavily utilze it by themselves! even pvp-fleets that used to claim to run clean builds have exchanged skill for clickies by now. so ... now what?
Now this would be cool ...
In the end, this is always how things work. Which is why balance must be achieved by the game designers. You can't hope for community self-regulation, because it never works in the long run.
People in PvP will min/max, and if that requires cheap tactics (or expensive consoles), then they'll do that. You can appeal to their better selfs or what not, but all past tries have ultimately failed. I suppose it's similar to "abstinence only" education. You might say it would work if everyone adhered to it, but they don't adhere to it, so it's not a practical approach.
Balance issues have to be dealt with at the design level. You either are willing (and able) to do that work, or you are accepting that balance problems will hurt your PvP games. The community can, in isolated cases, try to work around it, but it is working against the system and working against human nature.
Some may not agree, but there really was a time when we had the "golden days" of PVP. Must have been around the time i started to play this game, and that's more than 2,5 years ago by now.
If you compare PVP from back then and the current state of it, then we are talking about two different games to be honest. When i started to get my Eng-toon maxed out for PVP some guys laughed at me because Engineers just were completely pointless in any premade match. So there were only 3 factions at all and on top of that only two (sci, tac), had their right to exist in premades. At least at this point cryptic should have realized that something "is not working as intended". From that time on until now PVP had a constant downfall....and right now it is just frustrating. Can't blame anyone of the veterans who moved to other games, and i am sure that if season 9 doesn't fix at least half of the **** we have at the moment, there are more and more people who just move on to other games.
If i would have started to play PVP not 2,5 years ago but at this current state of the game, i would have left after 2-3 months. That's the sad part of the story...the PVP community will not grow when any new player gets punished by all those universal consoles and broken game mechanics.
As hanK mentioned...fleets like 7. Flotte, Vice Squad and so on, i talked to some of them and most of them just replied that they are adapting to what they get to see in the queues, so even if i hate to say it, but even them i can't blame for the current state the Queues are in.
This!!!!!!!!!!
i dont complain about faw. it can be beat. simple healing will beat out faw. simple as that. but when roms run ques and no reason to use a kdf/fed, somthing is wrong.
TRH told me you cant use a dog fighting ship in pvp. even a few friends told me that. its all about cloaking and 3 sci healing wells.
sorry but faw is the least of the problems. but if using a ship that dont cloak and using faw placate thats just as bad.
so yeah why pvp? its a joke in this game. im still trying to find it in me to get tact consoles, engy consoles and grind rep ffs.....
in pve i dont need any of that.
that was never true. well, to a degree i guess. remember when subnuke doffs were op? TRH used to beat teams that were loaded up on them. WITH OUT using them. was all about timing to be honest. but those days are long dead. sure matches can still be won by using far play against cheese, but with 2 equal teams cheese will win.