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Star Trek v Stargate
ryan218
Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
This is a far more reasonable argument for you guys to sink your teeth into than STvSW or STvW40K.
So, barring interference from the Q and the Ancients and assuming it took place in the Stargate Universe, who would win? Star Trek or Stargate?
And to make it slightly more interesting, all parties don't suddenly lose all their morals for the sake of an 'I win' button.
So, barring interference from the Q and the Ancients and assuming it took place in the Stargate Universe, who would win? Star Trek or Stargate?
And to make it slightly more interesting, all parties don't suddenly lose all their morals for the sake of an 'I win' button.
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A) Everyone gets along. EVERYBODY WINS! Y'know, except the SGC who once again are denied the advanced weapons they wanted. But since the Tau'ri are FTL capable, the Federation would probably provide them with some technology. And would probably be quite interested in the Stargates and other Ancient tech.
I see an interesting question born of this discussion though: are the Iconians really just the Ancients?
USS Stradivarius
NX-163292
Author of Reprise
However, in terms of ground combat, Stargate has proven themselves stupidly adaptable to battle tactics over short periods of time (something I really loved about Gate. Power levels remained consistant, and tech they developed was continually used over the rest of the years. Always wondered why they never took some Zats to Atlantis).
But then I got thinking. The Wraith would overpower Trek with sheer numbers, much as they did the Ancients. Gouauld would not pose a problem for Trek. If the Borg came along, the Tauri use bullets, so can easily take those guys down. And if Replicators turned up, Trek only ever uses energy weapons, which have been proven to be rubbish against them. And the Tauri have Asgard plasma beam weapons on their ships. Although they have a vastly smaller ship, I think they could win.
So ultimately, I have to say Stargate wins.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Trek warp and transwarp drives could not even cross the dark space between galaxies that fast.
On shield tech, the Asgard shields look to be more superior than fed shields
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
But whta is definitely true is that the Asgards seemed to have pretty good engines, and zero point modules made all FTL engines even more impressive. That could be a great strategic advantage. That said... The Goauld weren't really very competent about their use of advantages. They also seemed to have trouble locating and attacking Earth. Does anyone remember why they failed to locate Earth? I would expect Starfleet exploration vessels having less issues with such things. Especially since the typical Starfleet away team is probably no less resourceful as the typical Stargate team (power level: Protagonist?)
About the firepower of the different ships I don't know. I remember that there were one or two episodes where we see ship weapons being used on ground targets, and that seemed both flexible (being able to stun humanoids or drill) and impressive (how deep the phasers could drill.). That's just a single Starfleet vessel - a fleet of ships destroyed the entire surface layer of a planet, and a single Borg vessel was responsible for removing the inhabitated land masses of some Romulan and Federation colony wrlds.
Trek if not that much , Stargate if was.
Reason being in Stargate they have Hyperspace which could go a lot faster than trek's warp.
Whether that requires more power i'm not sure.
Asgard shields seemed very impressive and also the new Asgard beam weapons proved very effective.
Trek would probably have the numbers, but Stargate could use all force in 1 area, hit and run and trek would not be able to catch. pretty much like they did with the replicators in the pegasus galaxy, picking them off 1 by 1.
Tough one to choose though
What you really don't want to see happening is the Replicators fighting the Borg. Regardless of who wins, its going to be bad for everyone else.
You're forgetting about the TNG episode "Where no one has gone before". Sure, it was a one-off thing, but they did travel past several galaxies before they stopped.
Then there was the TNG episode "The Nth Degree" in which Barclay acquires immense mental capability and modifies the Enterprise to travel through some sort of subspace distortion to travel to the center of the galaxy.
In Stargate, they had a lot of trouble acquiring the necessary power sources to enable those ship and, thus, they only had a handful of them. The reason being that such levels of power were only attainable with very exotic materials and salvaged technology that nobody knew how to replicate once they ceased to function. The Federation has entire fleets of ships at their disposal and the means to power all of them.
Stargate has the gates and Star Trek has the number of ships with stable energy sources. I don't think SGC would enter into conflict with the Federation in any case since the Federation does not seek conflict with others that don't seek conflict with them. I'd imagine the SGC and Federation would have a lot to share with each other.
Still with the ZPM it took a few days to get to pegasus from milkyway, Without it took 3 weeks, Stlil a lot faster than from Trek.
Cannot really include one off's as part of their technology.
Stargate towards the end were pumping out quite a few ships, with the help of the asgard tech they could replicate materials which would make ship building faster.
Its all a matter of when in the Gate universe.
But I'd say Trek would. Whale probe guys shuts all replicators off and rest of the universe tractors them into the next sun. Except Borg, they get distracted with something shiny, so they don't get funny ideas.
Asgard are comparable to the Voth, Replicators to the Borg.
Feds mostly use energy weapons, but have been shown to use chemical projectile weapons (there was an Ezri episode in DS9 where the killer used a modified rifle). Feds and other "player faction" Trek groups are slightly below the Asgard and Replicators in tech levels, comparable to the Wraith.
The Goa'uld, with their ridiculous cultural stagnation and internecine strife, would fold before any Trek attack. Their technology is comparable to 22nd century UEF tech, at best, and their cultural stagnation all but precludes advancement and/or reverse engineering. The Klingons would crush them into the ground and conquer their worlds in glorious battle.
The Tau'ri would likely ally with the Feds and try to ally with the Klingons and Romulans.
Ori are comparable to the Undine in power level.
Stargate hyperdrives are considerably faster than warp drive, and Stargates enable gateverse travelers incredible speed for infiltration missions; however, there is no Stargate network in the Trekverse, and using Iconian gateways in the current climate is a maaaaaaaaaaaaaajor bad idea.
Assuming that the following factions in Star Trek discover a way into the Stargate universe:
Romulan Republic, Dominion, Klingon Empire, UFP.
We can hypothesize the following (also assuming that this takes place between seasons 8 and 9 of SG-1):
--Feds discover a portal to the gateverse, say using the wormhole at DS9. A similar portal is found by Republic forces near mol'Rihan.
--Feds send a scout ship through the portal, as do the Rommies on their side. Odo shows up at DS9 to see what the fuss is about.
--Goa'uld encounter the Fed and Rommie explorers (assume for the sake of argument that they are in the same gateverse system, in contact during the Goa'uld encounter). A System Lord in a ha'tak battleship demands the surrender of the explorers. Feds give the standard we-are-explorers-we-did-not-come-here-to-fight greeting. Goa'uld demand surrender again, and are refused. Goa'uld open fire. Feds and Rommies take minimal damage and return fire, disabling the Goa'uld ship's weapons and shields. The Goa'uld retreat.
--Exploration ships contact home and request reinforcements. Odo offers the aid of a Jem'Hadar cruiser, and the Klingons send a couple of birds of prey. Exploration fleet broadcasts continuous welcome and warning hails as it explores the portal system and attempts to make contact with local species.
--Stargate is found on a nearby planet. Exploration fleet goes to investigate. More allied ships come through and stand guard at the portals.
--SG-1 activates the Stargate on a routine mission as it is being investigated by Federation and Romulan personnel. They are told to surrender and drop their weapons by Klingon guards, who outnumber them. They obey.
--After some negotiations, and a conference with Command, the Trekverse forces agree to aid the SGC against the Goa'uld and other threats. Trekverse ambassadors return to SGC with SG-1 and a team of Klingon shock troopers as guards (just in case).
--Goa'uld reinforcements attack allied exploration fleet in stargate/portal system. They are easily defeated by Klingon birds-of-prey and boarded by Klingon berserkers. Ma'tok staff weapons are only partially effective against Klingon personal shields. Klingon disruptors and bat'leths make short work of Jaffa troops. A Goa'uld is captured and restrained by Klingon warriors and beamed out for interrogation.
--Asgard battleships drop out of hyperspace to investigate the disturbance. Allied forces attempt to negotiate, given that the Asgard are more technologically advanced. Asgard ships remain in system with weapons locked on alliance ships while Thor heads for Earth to double-check with the SGC.
--After the situation is defused, technological exchange takes place. Trekverse scientists investigate hyperdrive for use with Trekverse tech. Tau'ri offer reverse-engineered hyperdrive, Ancient, Wraith, and zat'nik'tel technology to allied forces in exchange for starship weaponry.
--Trekverse alliance declares war on the Goa'uld. Alliance forces travel to Atlantis in order to examine Wraith technology, and are attacked by Wraith on a scouting mission. Dominion and Federation allied forces begin attempts to fit hyperdrive to their ships, followed by Klingons and Romulans.
--Ori discover the Milky Way. They begin preparing for conquest.
--Replicators attack the Asgard while alliance forces are in negotiations. Alliance forces, used to fighting constantly-adapting enemies such as the Borg, use hybrid technology to develop a weapon for use against the new threat.
--Alliance forces successfully test hyperdrive and use this new, cheap form of FTL to send reinforcements to the Pegasus galaxy.
--Goa'uld forces are conquered by Klingon troops and surrender to alliance forces. System Lords are imprisoned and executed.
--Ori attack the Milky Way. Klingons and Jem'Hadar annihilate Ori ground troops. Gateverse technology is sent to the trekverse for analysis. Ori fleet is stalled by Klingon and Dominion dreadnought carriers. Romulan warbirds decloak behind Ori battle lines as Federation escort and cruisers target Ori warships' power cores. Asgard and Tau'ri reinforcements crush the Ori fleet, but alliance forces suffer approximately 30% casualties. Alliance members declare war on the Ori.
--Alliance troops destroy dozens of Wraith hives, taking advantage of Romulan and Klingon cloaking devices. Wraith retreat to more secure positions in Pegasus galaxy. Atlantis is armed with trekverse technology.
--Romulan, Klingon, and Dominion forces launch a preemptive strike on the Ori using the Supergate, straining the alliance with the Federation. Massive casualties on both sides. Romulan Republic disavows further preemptive strikes against the Ori. Trekverse scientists use reverse-engineered gateverse technology to retrofit several dozen starships, which annihilate a Borg hive ship and an Undine battle fleet. Stargate technology is transferred to the trekverse for reverse-engineering.
--Replicators are wiped out by Asgard backed up by Federation scientists.
--Ori retaliate against alliance forces, sending every ship they have through the Supergate and heading for the gateverse's Sol system, where the alliance has set up shipyards and other facilities. Alliance ships, backed by gateverse reinforcements, prepare for battle. Klingon and Romulan saboteurs take the Sangraal through the Supergate while the Ori are overextended and annihilate the Ori species. They they proceed to destroy and steal Ori technology across the Ori home galaxy.
--Wraith attack Atlantis while alliance defenders are away (heading to Earth to defend against the Ori invasion), but are repulsed with some casualties by the new defenses.
--The Ori fleet is destroyed by the Dakara superweapon, which hasn't been used up until this point but has instead been taken to Luna as an overpowered orbital defense cannon. The Orici destroys the weapon, but her ship is targeted by every ship in the defending fleet, destroying it and killing her.
--Leaderless, the Ori forces are wiped out, but alliance and gateverse forces suffer heavy casualties. Wraith send the super-hive for Earth while defense forces are down. The supped-up Atlantis city ship follows, and easily destroys the Wraith ship, then returns to Lantea. Wraith forces are hunted down and exterminated over the course of several months.
--Trade negotiations between the two universes result in a formal alliance. Trekverse scientists, with their advanced technology and ingenuity, help solve the Asgard's cloning problem. Everyone lives happily ever after.
That's what I think would happen.
Oh wait, I am not allowed to talk to you anymore
I think conversations are fine.
That running gag of ours was getting kind of old, though.
The Morlocks will win
SG1 Season 1 finale cliffhanger: Gou'auld attack fleet (only 2 ships, but still at this point in the verse, it was more than enough) arrive in orbit of Earth ready to blow it up.
The Gou'auld knew where Earth was. The reason they never attacked it en masse after season 1's cliffhanger is because it became a protected planet under the Gou'auld/Asgard treaty. Which meant if the snakes came and attacked it, the Asgard would go bitchslap them something fierce. There were a couple of stealthy attacks over the years though (Flinging an asteroid at earth, the Ancient gate destroying device that spat radiation through the gate, the bomb in Cassandra and so forth).
Ori? Dang, I forgot about those guys. If they got a couple of ships through a Supergate, game over man. Game over.
Transporters wouldnt work on replicators. The asgard never used that trick because, I believe, they had trouble locking onot the Replicator signatures. If Trek did that, they could only beam a couple at a time. They would have to get the infestation at its early stage, or they would simply be too numerous for that trick. Assuming they could lock onto them.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
I hear the StarGate System is real and is used today.
- Natural Wormholes -
Captain Janeway could have used it but then the Voyager Series would have only lasted
1 year. LOL
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where
we started and know the place for the first time. T.S. Eliot
Well I'd definitely say stargate, at the very least from the point on when earth ships use Asgard technology. That doesn't make it the better series/franchise, but the abiltys ships have in late stargate are clearly superior to anything Star Trek has. Their shields can withstand sun eruptions, their ships can travel between galaxy's within 2 weeks ( and do not need 80 years to travel through 1).
The comparison here even works (unlike the Star Wars/Star Trek comparison) since I can't think if any really significant technology Star Trek has and stargate has not (or is unable to build if they want = see food replicators). (In Star Wars they have clearly superior engines but no transporters for example).
About the holodeck bullets: my argument still stands, as holograms they ultimately are energy weapons, too.
And yes the away team vs sg team is another topic, since the sg teams do not seem to use any advanced technology there I'd guess the Star Trek away team would win... Or at least has a much better chance of winning here. My argument above is for spaceships alone.
And the goua'uld.... The way I understood them they are kind of special case there.
First thing is they rely on the gate traveling and pay little attention to their ships (in the stargate follow up novels, wich are not connected to the series but an independent follow up to the movie, raa essentially had destroyed all ships beside 3, one of them having been destroyed in the movie, to avoid any potential rebellion to get hands on that kind of tech. Although, again, that is not the series canon.
Also, in the series and those books, they are stuck in kind of a middle age with no technological progress within litarally a millennium. As far as I remember that was raas doing, too, for prety much the same reason he dumped all technology in those books: to keep the system lords small and prevent them rebelling against him.
This obviously changed during the series, because... Well... Raa was recently deceased there. So that's why their spaceships kind of sucked in the beginning of the series.
Later the goua'uld got upgraded too. Llike the human ships got uprades from the Asgard, the goua'uld ships got uprades by Anubis.... Since he didn't need to hold his lackys back, he unlike raa was much stronger in the first place and didn't have to worry about that.
USS Stradivarius
NX-163292
Author of Reprise
For hard numerical comparisons, it comes down yet again to the fact that Star Trek ships are really slow. Outside of one-off stuff like transwarp or quantum slipstream, SG hyperdrive is multiple orders of magnitude faster than warp. Warp nine is 1516 c. A Goa'uld Ha'tak is capable of roughly 32,000 c. A Daedalus-class without a ZPM can cover 3 million light years in 18 days, or roughly 100 LY per minute, which is 5.26 x 10^7 c. The Asgard travel between galaxies in mere minutes.
Any faction in SG (apart from the Tollans, who are noted to be quite slow) can simply ignore enemy forces, fly straight past, target their infrastructure, and leave faster than ST can respond.
If they could adapt to kinetic energy weapons, they already would have. Forget the holodeck bullets for a moment and face the fact that every firearm, edged weapon, or blunt weapon has the same damage mechanism: kinetic energy, not frequency-based technobabble like ST directed energy weapons.
-- Worf killed Borg with his bat'leth. Kinetic energy.
-- Data strangled them and broke their necks. Kinetic energy.
-- The Undine clawed them to pieces. Kinetic energy.
-- Apart from the Scimitar*, no ship in ST, regardless of faction, has ever survived a ramming attack. Kinetic energy, and speaks to ST combat shields in general being bad at surviving kinetic energy.
And given the immense variety in tech levels we see in ST, do you honestly think the Borg have never fought a species that uses firearms?
Starfleet's problem with the Borg is that, like the Asgard versus the Replicators, they've gotten too used to looking for high-tech solutions to their problems and have forgotten the basic engineering rule of thumb that simpler = better. As demonstrated by ENT, they've long lost the ability to think of low-tech solutions (although I like that their solution for Borg adaptation is to just boost the power output of their pistols and burn through it, rather than trying to technobabble their way out).
* And you can resolve that one by looking at the distance over which Picard accelerated, and the speed of his acceleration. The Enterprise wasn't moving fast enough.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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-- Toss-up between redshirts and Jaffa, although slanted slightly in the Jaffas' favor due to possession of close air support (death gliders and al'kesh bombers) and squad heavy weapons (tripod-mounted staff weapons). But they're as tactically idiotic as the redshirts.
-- SGC tears redshirts to pieces with guerrilla tactics, firing laser-guided missiles through the gate, laying traps with claymores, use of snipers, and bringing out heavy machine guns as necessary.
-- Replicators wear all phaser fire with no damage and eat redshirts for breakfast.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
If shields don't stop solid masses, then how do you explain dropping shields for docking and shuttle landings, or shields stopping projectile weapons (i.e. torpedoes)?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
As to your torpedoes point, pure projectile weapons don't glow (any time a torp is fired), and matter doesn't have a frequency (which torps have, per Generations). Therefore torpedoes are sheathed in energy for some reason, allowing shields to interact with them. I have no idea why.
I've honestly got nothing on the shuttles/docking point. That's where the Watsonian analysis curls up in a corner and cries. (However, I would like you to provide an example.) Because ST writers are inconsistent, when doing these kinds of analyses you have to look for patterns, not single instances.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Except having to drop shields to dock and land IS a consistent point in ST:V, TNG, DS9 and VOY. They always had to drop shields in order to receive a shuttle in combat.
I've always assumed that with Nemesis, the Enterprise simply overwhelmed the Scimitar's shields with the impact. It makes sense, given on-screen evidence.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
All right, I'll give you the ramming point. But that still leaves the question of why nobody ever tried fighting a Borg cube by accelerating an unmanned starship towards it at c-fractional (or even warp speed, for that matter). That's the kind of thing I mean when I say Starfleet is tactically TRIBBLE. They don't use their capabilities to the logical extent they could, given the magnitude of the threat.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Shields clearly can withstand some kinetic punishment, just not a lot. A shuttle would splat on a shield, same way a person can't normally pass through forcefields, but shields are designed to combat directed energy weapons and therefore a large amount of kinetic energy can smash through pretty unhampered. Which also explains the energy sheath of torpedoes, the sheath preserves as much of the explosive yield as possible hoping to break through the shields, maybe even some of the hull plating, prior to detonation. Presumably a torpedo without some kind of energy field would impact on shields and detonate there. So shields would probably be able to withstand railgun fire for some time, but high-end missile strikes would be particularly effective.
The Borg are cybernetic, they require the organic components to function. First Contact taught that lesson particularly well. No matter how much you do to resist energy, kinetic damage will still wreck most organics.
USS Stradivarius
NX-163292
Author of Reprise
Well, they didn't exactly get a chance. They didn't just happen to have an unmanned starship lying around like in 'Doomsday Machine', and the ships at Wolf were getting picked off too fast. The Saratoga barely lasted a few minutes, and they weren't able to evacuate their entire crew.
Also, I know everyone cries heresy when someone so much as mentions ST:09, but notice how fragile the autopilot was in the opening scene. The Borg also demonstrated an ability to tractor debris from a ship they just destroyed at point blank before collision.
Also, it's fiction.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
You don't need the autopilot. You need to point it in a direction and put a brick on the gas pedal (figuratively speaking). The tactic is designed to turn the Borg "tactic" of a straight-line bullrush against them.
Irrelevant. Analyzing the internal workings of a setting requires you to look at it as if it were real.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
1st Point: It takes hours to days to start up a warp core, even with a full engineering crew. Starfleet underestimated the Borg and didn't have time to come up with a Plan B.
2nd Point: Starfleet ship computers are known for being really smart, and leaving a warp core or fusion reactor unattended like that is a really bad idea, so the ship would have, as it does, shut down unless the captain overrode it, which wouldn't be possible if the ship were unmanned.
3rd point: Or we could just enjoy the show for what it is? I suspect you don't pick apart the plot holes in a children's story. As long as it's entertaining without losing all sense, what does it matter if it's not 100% realistic? The point of a TV show - especially sci-fi - is to provide a reprieve from reality.
Hence why I avoid stardestroyer.net.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
because the three dominat powers in their corner of the galaxy have about the same development level they have softened up and more importantly they have expanded their territory too much and stretched their resources too thin, the sol system knowing the enemy they alerted to their presence should have more defences than the few ships they had and in there and again a few years later in they get their asses kicked by the dominion because they wanted to expand more and that in the end the 3 dominant powers and they barely won if the wormhole aliens hadn't interfered they would have lost probably if i judge from the ships used in the big battles (really miranda class ships ?)
anyway back to the sg vs st
on the ground any sg team roflstomps easily any st team, they claim that their weapons are more advanced and everything on ground warfare has become better but from what is seen they just stand there in the open waiting to be killed, no cover, no tactics etc etc
but for the space battles if we take the daedalus class ships from when sga ended and forward they will surely put a hell of a fight they have the badass asgard beams the shield that can take quite a punch and these ships are extremely maneuverable and fast (in the last episode of sg-1 the ships was circling aroung the ori ship), so in the sg side you have a formidable small bulky ship that can do serious damage and is fast and on the st side you have huge slow whales (like the galaxy) with torps that miss very much (seriously the missiles we have now are better than the torps) but with phasers all over the hull, i think that the sg ship would win like david against goliath, all the sg needs to do is blow the bridge or destroy the paperthin pylons. and if they can't penetrate the shields no worries, launch all the f302s with naquadah bombs put them to do a hyperspace jump to bypass the shields and boom.
now if we take an earth ship in the sg universe ten years from the end of atlantis with the city on earth and everything on asgard they would be pretty powerful, don't forget they built a small fleet in less than 6-7 years when they had in technology what we have in reality as earth.
Hehe, that was a good manouver. I'd forgotten about that one.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'