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Cloak Countermeasure: Probes
senatorvreenak
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I think many will agree that cloak countermeasures currently in the game tend to be very lacking and limited.
So how about taking a page from other Star Trek games and adding probes as an innate ability to all ships with a 1-5 minute cooldown?
Essentially the Probe would do this.
Reveal all stealthed and cloaked ships starting within a say a radius of 20km from the probe.
This detection range could also be reduced down to 10km or 5km depending on the cloaked ships stealth rating and aux power levels, which could also make stealth enhancing consoles and powers more appealing.
The probe would of course be launched in a straight line from the axis of the ship traveling for maybe 20 or 50km before expiring.
It would of course have a bright flare or sonar like pulsing graphic to alert cloaked ships to the presene of a probe.
This is just a general idea, so i'm not saying it should be exactly like that.
But I do think some form of cloak detecting probes would be a welcome and needed addition to the game.
As current cloak countermeasures only work within immediate weapons range, which is something most capable cloak captains avoid until they are fully primed to strike.
So how about taking a page from other Star Trek games and adding probes as an innate ability to all ships with a 1-5 minute cooldown?
Essentially the Probe would do this.
Reveal all stealthed and cloaked ships starting within a say a radius of 20km from the probe.
This detection range could also be reduced down to 10km or 5km depending on the cloaked ships stealth rating and aux power levels, which could also make stealth enhancing consoles and powers more appealing.
The probe would of course be launched in a straight line from the axis of the ship traveling for maybe 20 or 50km before expiring.
It would of course have a bright flare or sonar like pulsing graphic to alert cloaked ships to the presene of a probe.
This is just a general idea, so i'm not saying it should be exactly like that.
But I do think some form of cloak detecting probes would be a welcome and needed addition to the game.
As current cloak countermeasures only work within immediate weapons range, which is something most capable cloak captains avoid until they are fully primed to strike.
Post edited by senatorvreenak on
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Beyond that, I don't see any reason to have more cloak detection. Once you are able to survive vaper alphas, the real problem becomes how to keep them from getting away. I see the real problem being singularity powers, which allows them to confuse or break holds then cloak.
I think what would be better is a console or doff with a passive ability to disable singularity powers. Singularity powers have cheated me out of plenty of kills while I have a tractor or sensor scan active (sometimes both). But really, I don't mind the extra crit and cloak, I just mind the oh TRIBBLE button. Give all fed/kdf ships an oh TRIBBLE button like a miracle worker auto heal below 30% and the romulan tears would flow.
But hey, if the romulans run, I consider myself victorious.
Edit: What might be really cool would be a torp that paints a target, makes it detectable through cloak, but does no damage. Still make it able to be cleansed with sci team and eptx cleanse doff though.
EPTA
Specced into Sensors
sensor consoles
Jem'Hadar deflector
APB (once detected)
Nebula tachyon detection console (universal)
Nebula detection grid (if using the Nebula)
Maintenance doffs+Aux batteries
Certain pets help too
Cloak detection torpedo
So why not be happy with all these options, and furthermore, why is it only the "feds need"?
The KDF has to fight cloakers now as much as the feds do....
Personaly I'm content with the existing cloak detection techniques availible and have no desire to sideways nerf cloaking ingame.
R.I.P
FIY, I'm speaking as a die-hard KDF player, I barely even touch my fed toon, nor did I ever say this was supposed to be something fed-centric. :rolleyes:
The fact as an avid BoP pilots that I NEVER even have to concern myself with detection i in evidence of larger problem.
In addition, Cloak vs Cloak PvP can be a real pain.
Thing is none of the currently existing cloak countermeasures are at all effective beyond 10km range.
You can defend yourself against cloaked ships but you can't actually hunt them.
Honestly, don't even need this much detection stuff.
EPTA
Jem Deflector
Sensor Scan (if sci)
3-6 points in Sensors
Tachyon Detection Field (Feds and Fed-Roms)
You are pretty solid right there for most cloakers. Yes people can simply wait it out or something, but that is the point-counterpoint strategy that goes for a lot of things in games. And it's not like the cloaker is only gonna be thinking about one person snooping, they might be a focus, but in PvP there are a lot of other things going on still.
You can even use all that on a T'varo on a Fed-Rom, so you can be completely cloaked while snooping for others. That's something KDF and KDF-Roms cannot do as well. TDF helps a lot.
Actually I think most of the sci BOFF abilities should be changed to this setup, with limited hangar space.
When I came to STO, I was surprised ppl could just cloak with near impunity.
Yeah ... I'm not holding my breath for that one either.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
My apolgies. I am most jaded when it comes to such threads.
though I know that it is possible to detect cloakers past 10km. As well its possible to hunt them.
True though that cloaked pvp csn be a pain. Its the nature of the beast and now both sides can field them.
I see no need for a 20km decloak sideways nerf device to remove its use.
R.I.P
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Idea for science-y frigate ASW decloaker pet seconded. That would be awesome.
Platforms could also become more awesome. Seconded.
It's been pointed out to them over and over and over...as Stealth has gotten worse and worse since LoR...and yet they continue to ask for more and more so they don't have to change anything. At this point, it's difficult to imagine that they're serious - it's a far more rational scenario given the state of the game that they're trolling...cause they can't be serious.
edit: In the end, it's about all the various things that may require a counter - and - in the end, we can't carry counters for everything (though Cryptic definitely tried to provide that for folks with the WCE(Cleanse Everything!) DOFF)...
It's along the lines of a person being faced with the choice of using TT, ET, or ST - they each "counter" a certain thing. It's along the lines of other various skill choices, where one might feel those points are wasted if they never come up against something that uses any ability they might help with...
One could probably make the case to shift some of the Skills around or to change the manner in which points are spent - over the years many folks have asked for that, and Geko has opened the door to discussions about a potential Skill Revamp with Expansion 2...so perhaps that would be a place to make the argument for many such things?
Damn pvp community at their worst as usual to nerf everything.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I'd think if some or all FDK and romulan ships have a innate cloak? Some or all of the fed ships should have a innate decloak ability or higher perception ability.
Nobody is QQ'ing as you so eloquently put it.
I have no problems dealing with cloak capable ships myself, in fact I don't even fly ships without a cloaking device these days.
However, some of us actually like to be challenged in battle.
As for the "damn PvP community", whats your problem? if your into PvE only nothing that you do is being nerfed here.
In fact this isn't even a nerf thread.
It should however disable AUX( but the effectiveness is still regulated by effective aux power that's disabled) much like cloak disables shield, it will also give a one time hit damage damage bonus. But cloaked vessels will get a warning when ever they are detected.
Raptors should then get a shield mod buff to escort levels and if needed cloak or stealth skill should be buffed to compensate. As cloak shouldn't be totally out classed by it they should be equal, with 5kms being the line of detection if both sensor/stealth and aux power are equal.
It's currently balanced against cloaking...
...ie, folks should be asking for a buff to cloaking.
But the vast majority of the playerbase is well below average, so it's generally not that large of an issue for cloakers. Yes, they'll run into folks with half a clue from time to time that will be very problematic for them...but again, the vast majority doesn't have that half a clue...
Then would I be out of line to demand all cloaking ships have to spend a console and/or bridge officer abilities to cloak? So they match non-cloaking ships having to spend consoles and/or abilities to detect cloaking ships.
Let's take a look at three ships...
Fleet Patrol Escort vs. Fleet Somraw Raptor
-550 Hull
+0.07 Shield Mod
-10 Inertia
-Cloak
Fleet Patrol Escort vs. Fleet Ha'feh Warbird
+20 Inertia
-1 Tac Console
+1 Eng Console
+10 Base Subsystem Power (each)
-Romulan Battle Cloak
-Singularity Abilities (Plasma Shockwave, Quantum Absorption, Singularity Jump, Singularity Overcharge, & Warp Shadows)
Fleet Somraw Raptor vs. Fleet Ha'feh Warbird
+550 Hull
-0.07 Shield Mod
+30 Inertia
-1 Tac Console
+1 Eng Console
+10 Base Subsystem Power (each)
+Cloak
-Romulan Battle Cloak
-55 Stealth Value
-Singularity Abilities (Plasma Shockwave, Quantum Absorption, Singularity Jump, Singularity Overcharge, & Warp Shadows)
Base Perception 0 Aux/0 Skill = 5000
Base Stealth 0 Aux/0 Skill = 4925 (non-Warbird) 4980 (Warbird)
Perception 125 Aux/99 Skill = 5049.75 (non-Sci) 5149.25 (Sci)
Stealth 125 Aux/99 Skill = 5099.5 (non-Warbird) 5154.5 (Warbird)
So the Sci could see the equivalent Aux/Skill non-Warbird at 1km. The non-Sci could not. Neither is going to see the Warbird.
edit: I went for a smoke and forgot to type the next bit when I got back, meh.
Perception 125 Aux/250 Skill = 5087.5 (non-Sci) 5262.5 (Sci)
Stealth 125 Aux/250 Skill = 5175 (non-Warbird) 5230 (Warbird)
So the Sci could see the equivalent Aux/Skill non-Warbird at 1.75km now. The non-Sci could not. The Sci is also going to be able to see the Warbird at 0.65km now. Which gets us into the following...
note: The above does not take into account the additional benefits that Starship Sensors Skill provides while Starship Stealth Skill does not provide any such additional benefits.
Now though, available to the "snooper" - there is the following:
Astrophysicist (+10 Starship Sensors)
Sensor Scan (can provide a significant boost to Stealth Detection Rating)
Tachyon Detection Field (can provide a nifty boost to Stealth Detection Rating, and can have it's CD reduced by 2pc MACO/[SciCdr] - only available to Feds and Fed Roms)
Tachyon Detection Grid (can provide a hefty boost to Stealth Detection Rating, only available on a Nebula, Nebula Retro, Fleet Nebula - thus Fed, etc, etc, etc)
Jem MK XI/Mk XII Deflectors (can provide a nifty/hefty boost to Stealth Detection Rating)
EPtA1-3 (provide a boost to Aux as well as Perception Range, 3-8km)
various gear that provides additional boosts to Starship Sensors Skill/etc
various AoE abilities that can decloak targets (GW, TR, CPB, etc, etc, etc)
Now though, available to the "sneaker" - there is the following:
Pirate/Subterfuge/Infiltrator (+150 Starship Stealth Skill (+75 Starship Stealth Value) - does not stack)
EPtA1-3 (provides the boost to Aux, but does not provide the listed boost to Stealth (neither via Starship Stealth Skill nor Starship Stealth Value) - been bugged since LoR)
various gear that sometimes (when it's not bugged) provides additional boosts to Starship Stealth Skill
So, though while I know it is not what you were saying - yes, it would be great if cloakers had gear/abilities available to them to match what a snooper can use...and it would only be fair that they had to spend gear/consoles in a similar fashion to get them.
Well for peeps to ask for reduced stealth to cloaking ships, and passive abilities to find them easily without investing into doing so looks pretty much wanting a nerf and seems pretty QQ to me.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Maybe you should actually read and comprehend things before you start mouthing off.
The base number are a little off, but noted. :P
Well, close enough I'm not going to quibble too much about it.
It's not if that they had gear to match all the anti-stealth vs. stealth things.
It would be nice if they had to have gear to cloak at all. The reasoning being they're getting a cloak as a "free" ability. I'm a little annoyed someone isn't saying "Thank you, sir!" even if it couldn't hide from a old blind lady in a walker light years away. Others are having to give something up to to be able to counter what someone else gets for "free".
Basically, if someone wants to complain about a lack of love for a cloak, I want to make them pay for it so they have something to complain about. :P
Me too. If anything, I think Cloaking should be more powerful.
Perception is free...any ship can do it. Only certain ships can cloak - and - the value of those cloaks is going to vary.
One might want to get into the discussion of KDF Cloaks vs. Rom Cloaks...
...in the end, though, I believe the issue folks are actually experiencing has nothing to do with the cloaks. It's the BOFFs.
Take any non-faction ship, and well: Rom > KDF > Fed.
Heck, take a Warbird with an Alien...then take a look at the BOFFs: Romulan > Nausicaan > Human.
It's the BOFFs that are boosting the CrtD/CrtH, that are extending the duration of the Ambush, increasing the Ambush damage bonus, reducing the time to recloak, and boosting Defense.
If you attack "Stealth" in trying to address a BOFF issue, then you're going to gut those without the BOFFs...
Not sure what that's designed to tell me. My problems starts with someone having cloak at no cost them then making a case against something that attacks it or doesn't buff it enough.
It's not that someone has a disagreement, I wish to know by what grounds they claim it.
Roughly, I'm for probes and wonder what high ground (save maybe the devs) have to do more then agree or be silent. So, I wish people to have to pay a price for having a cloak, therefore have a stake the system to able disagree in how it is run. :P
No argument with that idea. You however are welcome to try to tell the forum how bad that is. The devs have thus far been unwilling to lay down the law, and anyone that tries draws the attention of the holy temple of the almighty DPS incurs the wrath of it's followers. :P
I did that once and spent 20-30 pages saying how I even had something to say.
How is the cloak at no cost?
I rate it at no cost because, with three exceptions on the federation side, it requires no console or bridge officer slot that anti stealth devices or abilities do require. It is tied into a ship's hull as a innate ability.
While there are difference between ships that can cloak and those that can't I find one that rates great then one or two hits worth of avoidance or inflicted damage. I could be wrong though, I just never noticed one.