Link your cannon avenger, please. I'd like to see it.
Not much to see, 5x dhc or 4x dhc + torp up front according to your preference, turrets behind. 3x tac boffs with typical escort skills. AP + universal consoles for max crit, or plasma/romulan plasma + embassy plasma consoles for max dmg, according to your preference. Running max weapon power. Cookie cutter escort fit.
So your boat will be stronger then rylan's, in every way possible eh?
Isn't it obvious? Between the weaker hull and weaker eng boffs, do you think rylan's avenger beamboat anchor ship will measure up to traditional beamboat anchor cruisers? Stronger hull + stronger eng lineup = stronger beamboat anchor. Simple.
Turn rate is 12, as I explained. That's before any rcs.
And you're not going to be in Strategic Maneuvering 100% of the time, which puts your base turn at 9.
My point is is that while an Avenger is certainly more DHC-friendly than any cruiser the Feds have, that doesn't make it an escort, and it's going to require different tactics than a "typical escort".
For every time you argue that anyone putting beams on their Avenger is in the wrong boat, someone else will argue that every time you fly your cannon avenger like an escort, an eppoh dies :P
My current set up is 2 DBB and 2 BA with a Torp up front, 2 BA + Torp (KCB once I get it) in the back) with the Weapons Efficiency on.
This set up allows for broadsides, if needed, but the preference is head on attack. Against larger targets (Cubes for example) and the right angle I can do a broadside with the all BAs AND the DBB up front; put only on really big targets.
I tend to treat it more like a fast cruiser rather then an Escort, which makes sense given that it's a cruiser, not an escort.
I'm not going to say a DHC set up cannot work with it; a good number of RSCs + Fleet Plating with +Turn would make it an agile beast. It will not perform as well as an Escort, and lack Cmnd level BoFF abilities like APO to further up the damage, but it can be done.
As for BoFF set up my Cmnd Eng has Engie Team1, EptS2, RSP (1, I think) and Acteon Beam 3. Lt Cmnd Tac has FAW1, BO2 and Torp:HY3. En Tact is Tact team. Lt Sci is Sci Team1 and TSS2. Universal Lt station has a another Sci BoFF, HE1 and Tac Beam 2. I might refine the set up later, but for now it works out great.
The Avenger has one major weakness when using cannons: A horrible turning circle. Traditional KDF battlecruisers leverage their "bad" inertia ratings to perform a space-handbrake-turn, giving them a tight turning circle without having to stop their engines. The Avenger has an Escort's inertia rating, which means rather than flying like a battlecruiser, it flies like an Escort with bad turning. Thus, the Avenger is largely unable to powerslide and strafe.
The Avenger has one major weakness when using cannons: A horrible turning circle. Traditional KDF battlecruisers leverage their "bad" inertia ratings to perform a space-handbrake-turn, giving them a tight turning circle without having to stop their engines. The Avenger has an Escort's inertia rating, which means rather than flying like a battlecruiser, it flies like an Escort with bad turning. Thus, the Avenger is largely unable to powerslide and strafe.
This, exactly. Many of the advanced movement strategies KDF players use to make cannon-forward battlecruisers real death-machines won't work on the Avenger, making a DHC-centric Avenger effectively a big Kumari Escort with Cruiser commands, more hull and an Eng Commander instead of a Tac commander.
This isn't to say that a DHC Avenger is BAD by any means. I'm confident many pro-cannon Avenger captains could kick my DBB-boat's butt in a duel, I'm just pointing out that cannons aren''t automatically the ideal state of being for every player of every career and playstyle who decides to fly an Avenger, like some have been stating.
For every beam faw 10k dps parser log someone cites, I can show you a 100k dps log of dhc parked in front of a vesta grav well cycling sv on mirror invasion map. Both proves little.
As far as real dps is concerned, you won't always have dozens of targets to spam on, either with fire at will or scatter volley. And frankly, burning shields of numerous rats with faw produce lots of numbers, without killing much.
Compare completion times for either an elite cube kill or a spawn of spheres out of gate, and you'll find that dhc times are consistently shorter.
I don't understand your first part, but I assure you I am not some extreme DPSer. I play an honest game and I play to get things killed, not to tickle them all to boost numbers. I use ISE as a baseline for DPS tests. I position myself (when using FAW beam boats) to hit only what I want and not anything else, so I will intentionally avoid hitting gates and tac cubes, etc, if I'm trying to kill sphere mobs. When I say I got 10K regularly with it I'm not just saying that. I broke 13k easily a few times before CombatLogReader changed how it does the math for the DPS channel, but after the change I dropped down to only 11k. On the other hand, even the best DHC build I can make still falls around the 8k+ DPS range.
As for comparing completion times, this is very subjective since it's not really something we can test. Not easily. My impression -- after running many a different beam array boat and many a different escort or DHC-armed battlecruiser (both fed and KDF) is that DHCs are no longer king. They haven't been for a long time. They don't get it done faster or better. They SHOULD, but the way beams work right now is so OP it's silly.
That said, I still enjoy DHCs, and like them better than all-beams.
And you're not going to be in Strategic Maneuvering 100% of the time, which puts your base turn at 9.
My point is is that while an Avenger is certainly more DHC-friendly than any cruiser the Feds have, that doesn't make it an escort, and it's going to require different tactics than a "typical escort".
For every time you argue that anyone putting beams on their Avenger is in the wrong boat, someone else will argue that every time you fly your cannon avenger like an escort, an eppoh dies :P
Different strokes, meng.
Escort has no strategic maneuvering, or any command, 100% of the time. So yes, you can consider strategic maneuvering to be on 100% of the time for Avenger, because having more options can only be a strength, not a weakness. Unlike normal cruisers, avenger has no attract fire command, since it's not meant to be a beamboat anchor. It's the only obligatory command necessary for cruiser role, others that increase shield or weapon power slightly are just nice to have.
The Avenger has one major weakness when using cannons: A horrible turning circle. Traditional KDF battlecruisers leverage their "bad" inertia ratings to perform a space-handbrake-turn, giving them a tight turning circle without having to stop their engines. The Avenger has an Escort's inertia rating, which means rather than flying like a battlecruiser, it flies like an Escort with bad turning. Thus, the Avenger is largely unable to powerslide and strafe.
With turn rate of 12 without fitting rcs, dhc should be more than viable. Fit just one rcs, and it's over 17. If you still can't aim dhcs with turn rate of 17 plus low inertia, the problem is in your piloting. With fleet rcs, there's little sacrifice in hull tank.
Escort has no strategic maneuvering, or any command, 100% of the time. So yes, you can consider strategic maneuvering to be on 100% of the time for Avenger, because having more options can only be a strength, not a weakness. Unlike normal cruisers, avenger has no attract fire command, since it's not meant to be a beamboat anchor. It's the only obligatory command necessary for cruiser role, others that increase shield or weapon power slightly are just nice to have.
With turn rate of 12 without fitting rcs, dhc should be more than viable. Fit just one rcs, and it's over 17. If you still can't aim dhcs with turn rate of 17 plus low inertia, the problem is in your piloting. With fleet rcs, there's little sacrifice in hull tank.
Unless you use Weapon Efficiency. In which case Strategic Maneuvering is not on.
Look, let's all be mature here. Avenger Beam Boat works. Avenger Cannon Craft works. Both probably work as well as the other, depending on the person at the helm, the BoFF abilities chosen and the Console set up.
Unless you use Weapon Efficiency. In which case Strategic Maneuvering is not on.
Look, let's all be mature here. Avenger Beam Boat works. Avenger Cannon Craft works. Both probably work as well as the other, depending on the person at the helm, the BoFF abilities chosen and the Console set up.
K?
The reason to use weapon efficiency is for beam power draw problem. Without beams, you don't have the problem.
Again, no one said it doesn't "work." It's merely that any traditional eng cruiser, including free ones, works better as beamboat anchor than Avenger.
You can also fit a cannon (as opposed to dhc) avenger, and still have it "work," just almost as poorly as in a beamboat role.
I have to say after running a few tests on the "fixed" BFAW last night, a 5x AP DBB, 1x KCB, 1x OMAP BB, 1x TB Mine is (in my experience) far...far more effective now than the DHC build for raw damage output.
Agreed. Strangely enough I have a guy in General arguing with me that cannons flat out outclass beams in dps and cruiser beam boats can't possibly match the sustainable dps of an escort. :rolleyes:
I have to say after running a few tests on the "fixed" BFAW last night, a 5x AP DBB, 1x KCB, 1x OMAP BB, 1x TB Mine is (in my experience) far...far more effective now than the DHC build for raw damage output.
It's a shame Accuracy Overflow isn't working still.
Sardak (Science Officer): Captain of a 23k DPS R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel, R.R.W. Vathos Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
Comments
Not much to see, 5x dhc or 4x dhc + torp up front according to your preference, turrets behind. 3x tac boffs with typical escort skills. AP + universal consoles for max crit, or plasma/romulan plasma + embassy plasma consoles for max dmg, according to your preference. Running max weapon power. Cookie cutter escort fit.
Isn't it obvious? Between the weaker hull and weaker eng boffs, do you think rylan's avenger beamboat anchor ship will measure up to traditional beamboat anchor cruisers? Stronger hull + stronger eng lineup = stronger beamboat anchor. Simple.
And you're not going to be in Strategic Maneuvering 100% of the time, which puts your base turn at 9.
My point is is that while an Avenger is certainly more DHC-friendly than any cruiser the Feds have, that doesn't make it an escort, and it's going to require different tactics than a "typical escort".
For every time you argue that anyone putting beams on their Avenger is in the wrong boat, someone else will argue that every time you fly your cannon avenger like an escort, an eppoh dies :P
Different strokes, meng.
This set up allows for broadsides, if needed, but the preference is head on attack. Against larger targets (Cubes for example) and the right angle I can do a broadside with the all BAs AND the DBB up front; put only on really big targets.
I tend to treat it more like a fast cruiser rather then an Escort, which makes sense given that it's a cruiser, not an escort.
I'm not going to say a DHC set up cannot work with it; a good number of RSCs + Fleet Plating with +Turn would make it an agile beast. It will not perform as well as an Escort, and lack Cmnd level BoFF abilities like APO to further up the damage, but it can be done.
As for BoFF set up my Cmnd Eng has Engie Team1, EptS2, RSP (1, I think) and Acteon Beam 3. Lt Cmnd Tac has FAW1, BO2 and Torp:HY3. En Tact is Tact team. Lt Sci is Sci Team1 and TSS2. Universal Lt station has a another Sci BoFF, HE1 and Tac Beam 2. I might refine the set up later, but for now it works out great.
This, exactly. Many of the advanced movement strategies KDF players use to make cannon-forward battlecruisers real death-machines won't work on the Avenger, making a DHC-centric Avenger effectively a big Kumari Escort with Cruiser commands, more hull and an Eng Commander instead of a Tac commander.
This isn't to say that a DHC Avenger is BAD by any means. I'm confident many pro-cannon Avenger captains could kick my DBB-boat's butt in a duel, I'm just pointing out that cannons aren''t automatically the ideal state of being for every player of every career and playstyle who decides to fly an Avenger, like some have been stating.
I don't understand your first part, but I assure you I am not some extreme DPSer. I play an honest game and I play to get things killed, not to tickle them all to boost numbers. I use ISE as a baseline for DPS tests. I position myself (when using FAW beam boats) to hit only what I want and not anything else, so I will intentionally avoid hitting gates and tac cubes, etc, if I'm trying to kill sphere mobs. When I say I got 10K regularly with it I'm not just saying that. I broke 13k easily a few times before CombatLogReader changed how it does the math for the DPS channel, but after the change I dropped down to only 11k. On the other hand, even the best DHC build I can make still falls around the 8k+ DPS range.
As for comparing completion times, this is very subjective since it's not really something we can test. Not easily. My impression -- after running many a different beam array boat and many a different escort or DHC-armed battlecruiser (both fed and KDF) is that DHCs are no longer king. They haven't been for a long time. They don't get it done faster or better. They SHOULD, but the way beams work right now is so OP it's silly.
That said, I still enjoy DHCs, and like them better than all-beams.
Escort has no strategic maneuvering, or any command, 100% of the time. So yes, you can consider strategic maneuvering to be on 100% of the time for Avenger, because having more options can only be a strength, not a weakness. Unlike normal cruisers, avenger has no attract fire command, since it's not meant to be a beamboat anchor. It's the only obligatory command necessary for cruiser role, others that increase shield or weapon power slightly are just nice to have.
With turn rate of 12 without fitting rcs, dhc should be more than viable. Fit just one rcs, and it's over 17. If you still can't aim dhcs with turn rate of 17 plus low inertia, the problem is in your piloting. With fleet rcs, there's little sacrifice in hull tank.
Unless you use Weapon Efficiency. In which case Strategic Maneuvering is not on.
Look, let's all be mature here. Avenger Beam Boat works. Avenger Cannon Craft works. Both probably work as well as the other, depending on the person at the helm, the BoFF abilities chosen and the Console set up.
K?
The reason to use weapon efficiency is for beam power draw problem. Without beams, you don't have the problem.
Again, no one said it doesn't "work." It's merely that any traditional eng cruiser, including free ones, works better as beamboat anchor than Avenger.
You can also fit a cannon (as opposed to dhc) avenger, and still have it "work," just almost as poorly as in a beamboat role.
It's a shame Accuracy Overflow isn't working still.
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
A shame yes, but in the interest of balance? Probably best for now.