Then how do you explain that the Caitians quite obviously had a carrier to "update" and put into Starfleet service?
So where do those member world ships (D'Kyr, Kumari, Atrox...) that are quite capable of pulling their weight in the STO battlefield come from?
I was purely arguing from what the IP up to this point suggested us. STO makes up it's own canon, it even "explained" how a MMO's customization system could make "sense" in a uniform service.
Sure, STO explained how it works - it doesn't make sense, however.
Now that sentence is just wrong. Major defense contracts are not always given to the biggest player, not today, and obviously also not in STO's 25th century.
The UFP most likely doesn't hand out "defense contracts". Starfleet is the UFPs defensive service, Starfleet incorporates all the memberworlds shipbuilding expertise and techniques. There is no reason that memberworlds should construct warships on their own as it would destabilze the very foundations of the UFP.
Yet again, if you accept a hand-waving ingame explanation then of course, everything is fine
None of what you said is specifically spelled out in the television programs or movies, so therefore your conclusions are purely unsupported conjecture. I do not recall any "period of transition" in any of the episodes or movies.
The transition was just a logical argument. Starfleet wasn't instantly teleported once the UFP was founded. During the first decades they wouldn't have build that much vessels to completely replace the memberworlds militaries. In the 25th century, however, I assume they aready did that.
Concerning the memberworld's militaries, memory alpha states three on-screen references concerning the military absorption into Starfleet.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
For the purpose of why the Caitian have a good military ship, you really dont have to look further than ether the new frontier novels by Peter David which in them puts forth that Cait has left and rejoined the federation several times due to it's shifting political system. Or go with Bajors example from DS9, yes most of their military personel were given the option to join starfleet outright or stay in the planets established defence force. It would make good sense that most member worlds still field their own planetary defence fleet.
Space is vast, it's wonderful and maddening. Yet in that madness is some of the greatest beauty I have ever seen.
It's a siege vessel, that's what I'll say about it, for going into the thick of things and tanking like nobodies business, it's the sort of vessel I like to take into Hive Space Elite. I don't use it against small fry as much, but against tactical cubes, gates, borg command ships, that's where it shines.
That means absolutely nothing. Japan has no "military" per se, yet fields some of the most advanced warships in the world.
You are right, though that has nothing to do with the topic we discussed. Starfleet is not a military as well, yet the federation is the strongest and maybe most advanced faction in the alpha quadrant (amongst the "regular" people, that is).
The point of Cait building and upkeeping an entire fleet of warships, however, endangers the very ground on which the UFP was found. The memberworlds abandoned their militaries in favour of Starfleet, a paramilitary body incorporating all of the memberworlds which, amongst other things, takes care of the UFP's defense. Next to the civil defense forces the worlds have they mustn't field a recognizable military force. That's the basic consensus on how the federations' ideal of peace is achieved WITHIN the federation.
For the purpose of why the Caitian have a good military ship, you really dont have to look further than ether the new frontier novels by Peter David which in them puts forth that Cait has left and rejoined the federation several times due to it's shifting political system. Or go with Bajors example from DS9, yes most of their military personel were given the option to join starfleet outright or stay in the planets established defence force. It would make good sense that most member worlds still field their own planetary defence fleet.
Both examples are non-canon material. My in-game character biography has as much impact on the IP as the novels or STO explaining how Bajor joined the UFP. Although, don't get me wrong, it is a good example. We see in the shows that Bajor has it's own militia, they even have orbital sub-warp fightercraft for defensive purposes and that's perfectly fine and legit. I'm just not sure that DS9 states that Bajor does join the UFP, I think the show ends on the note that they work towards joining. But my memory might be inaccurate, I admit I don't know
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
That information is obviously incomplete. The Andorians, the Vulcans and the Caitians do have own ships, and experience in handling them. Their numbers are probably small, their task likely is more along the lines of a police guard, possibly limited to lower Mk weaponry, but they do exist.
I never fought THAT sentiment, that's what I am saying all along They DO have civil and potentially militia ships. I just said that I think it's a bold move to let the UFP, in Star Trek Online, call on the memberworlds to produce warships in large numbers. That just doesn't make sense as it would contradict not only the Federation Charta (which is mentioned on-screen) but it would also make no sense because Starfleet has much more shipyards and the regular construction of vessels always incorporates Andorian, Caitian, Vulcan and any other memberworld's personnel and expertise. That's the only thing I'm saying
Star Trek from TV is too incomplete to allow conclusions such as yours.
Maybe. I won't fight that as well But we are left with a distinct tone and intentions, supported by "behind the camera" material. Other forms of licensed fiction can of course completely contradict that, but to me it doesn't feel right. That's why I voiced my disconcern in the first place.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Well, in desperate times, why not use existing shipyards that were used for building system defense force militia ships and make warships along the same lines?
The answer is pretty simple - because it doesn't work like that in Star Trek.
STO on another hand is something completely different.
"they also affirm the rights and guarantees of individual Federation Member States. For example, before signing the Articles, the Andorian Empire insisted that the Constitution guarantee each individual Member State be allowed to maintain their own spaceforce and military, separate from the Federation Starfleet."
those are fully armed and full sized starships the vulcans, catians, and andor have (also, the ushan class (a saber variant) is an andorian design produced at andorian shipyards for starfleet).
y'know who i think should produce the federation frigate pet design?; the Bajorans. it would be nice to see their design style/philosophy in game.
"they also affirm the rights and guarantees of individual Federation Member States. For example, before signing the Articles, the Andorian Empire insisted that the Constitution guarantee each individual Member State be allowed to maintain their own spaceforce and military, separate from the Federation Starfleet."
those are fully armed and full sized starships the vulcans, catians, and andor have (also, the ushan class (a saber variant) is an andorian design produced at andorian shipyards for starfleet).
y'know who i think should produce the federation frigate pet design?; the Bajorans. it would be nice to see their design style/philosophy in game.
Please include a source, it took a while to figure out you are quoting Memory Beta ( http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_Charter ) which takes that information from another Star Trek game, namely the "Last Unicorn RPG game". And as such, it's a non-canon source.
I suppose the Ushan Variant is from another game as well? But even if so, having a sabre variant contructed by andorians seems perfectly legit. They are, after all, Starfleet members.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Please include a source, it took a while to figure out you are quoting Memory Beta ( http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_Charter ) which takes that information from another Star Trek game, namely the "Last Unicorn RPG game". And as such, it's a non-canon source.
I suppose the Ushan Variant is from another game as well? But even if so, having a sabre variant contructed by andorians seems perfectly legit. They are, after all, Starfleet members.
not just built, its an andorian design as well.
and until/unless cannon contradicts non-cannon, that is the federation charter we have, and i believe it is supported by a recent book Federation: the First 150 Years.
and until/unless cannon contradicts non-cannon, that is the federation charter we have, and i believe it is supported by a recent book Federation: the First 150 Years.
You can fire your cannons all day, but just because canon doesn't spell out one thing doesn't mean that non-canon material substitutes for it. Canon is everything that made it on screen, even if it contradicts production notes and the like because that is what happened. The next best source is production notes that complete on-screen evidence. To a certain degree this includes the technical manuals since they were meant as a guideline for writers to explain the tech side of things.. Everything else is not canon and as such is a "parallel universe" so to speak. That includes each and every book, each and every game (most of the times that's good, in some rare cases it's a pity) and each and every other material, licensed or unlicensed (of course).
The hard canon charta we have is this:
" CHARTER OF THE UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS
"We the lifeforms of the United Federation of Planets determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, and to reaffirm faith in the fundamental rights of sentient beings, in the dignity and worth of all lifeforms, in the equal rights of members of planetary systems large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of interstellar law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of living on all worlds..." " as it was displayed on-screen in ST:VOY.
Everything else I said is made up on the mindset portrayed in the creation of Star Trek and backed by production notes and the like but of course it is not hard canon per se. But the sentiment from unicorn that Andoria demanded independent military does contradict not only on-screen references about how all militaries were absorbed into Starfleet but it also logically contradicts the whole purpose of the UFP as seen above. If all worlds would keep their seperate, full scale militaries it would be a huge danger for the internal stability of the UFP. Memberworlds are only left with semi-autonomous sovereignity. They are free to handle their internal business and economic relatiuonships as long as those don't contradict the foundation principles of the UFP but they don't have the right to act independently in terms of foreign affairs. South Carolina isn't able to declare war on Indonesia, for example.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Would anyone care to give some build and play tips for this ship? It's currently the least favorite in my stable. The turn rate is really annoying and the pets die faster than fruit flies. I use it with my science captain.
Currently using the Jem'Hadar deflector / engine, a MACO MK XI shield, and polaron beam arrays.
It seems overpriced compared to other endgame c-store ships:
2.500 Zen => 10 consoles, 1 special universal console:
- Vesta, Kumari, Odyssey, Bortasqu, Avenger, Mogh, Scimitar,
2.500 Zen => 9 consoles, 1 special universal console or built-in ability
- MVAE, Dreadnaught, Guramba, Haakona,
2.000 Zen => 9 consoles, 1 special universal console or built-in ability
- Intrepid, Armitage, Defiant, Galaxy, D'Kyr, Nebula, Excelsior, Karfi, D'deridex, Arkif, Mogai, Dhelan, Tvaro
so following that logic, it should either get a special console or built-in ability for that price, or have the price reduced to 2.000.
I'm pretty sure the price was set like that because it gave the Federation players the option to play a ship class exclusive to the Klingon faction. This was before the whole invasion of carriers in STO.
It seems overpriced compared to other endgame c-store ships:
2.500 Zen => 10 consoles, 1 special universal console:
- Vesta, Kumari, Odyssey, Bortasqu, Avenger, Mogh, Scimitar,
2.500 Zen => 9 consoles, 1 special universal console or built-in ability
- MVAE, Dreadnaught, Guramba, Haakona,
2.000 Zen => 9 consoles, 1 special universal console or built-in ability
- Intrepid, Armitage, Defiant, Galaxy, D'Kyr, Nebula, Excelsior, Karfi, D'deridex, Arkif, Mogai, Dhelan, Tvaro
so following that logic, it should either get a special console or built-in ability for that price, or have the price reduced to 2.000.
That's what i've posted on page 1... i mean it doesn't even have a frigate pet what is another hit compared to the Kar'Fi (That also costs 500 C less AND has a console...)
"they also affirm the rights and guarantees of individual Federation Member States. For example, before signing the Articles, the Andorian Empire insisted that the Constitution guarantee each individual Member State be allowed to maintain their own spaceforce and military, separate from the Federation Starfleet."
those are fully armed and full sized starships the vulcans, catians, and andor have (also, the ushan class (a saber variant) is an andorian design produced at andorian shipyards for starfleet).
Yaaaay. Now I just want that Andorian Battlecruiser, about three more designs from the Vulcan Orbital Shipyard, and a Caitian escort... Cryptic seems terrible at designing Federation Starfleet ships, so I'd rather they go design other things that at least have potential not to suck.
I test the Atrox since one year, and i think its a vessel designed for sci captains.
I prefeer the vesta line, but is a good choice if u wanna try something diferent.
+10 to Atrox
Comments
It's a great ship. Don't blame a ship for the shortcomings of its command.
I was purely arguing from what the IP up to this point suggested us. STO makes up it's own canon, it even "explained" how a MMO's customization system could make "sense" in a uniform service.
Sure, STO explained how it works - it doesn't make sense, however.
The UFP most likely doesn't hand out "defense contracts". Starfleet is the UFPs defensive service, Starfleet incorporates all the memberworlds shipbuilding expertise and techniques. There is no reason that memberworlds should construct warships on their own as it would destabilze the very foundations of the UFP.
Yet again, if you accept a hand-waving ingame explanation then of course, everything is fine
The transition was just a logical argument. Starfleet wasn't instantly teleported once the UFP was founded. During the first decades they wouldn't have build that much vessels to completely replace the memberworlds militaries. In the 25th century, however, I assume they aready did that.
Concerning the memberworld's militaries, memory alpha states three on-screen references concerning the military absorption into Starfleet.
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That means absolutely nothing. Japan has no "military" per se, yet fields some of the most advanced warships in the world.
Sounds like you don't know how to fly one.
You are right, though that has nothing to do with the topic we discussed. Starfleet is not a military as well, yet the federation is the strongest and maybe most advanced faction in the alpha quadrant (amongst the "regular" people, that is).
The point of Cait building and upkeeping an entire fleet of warships, however, endangers the very ground on which the UFP was found. The memberworlds abandoned their militaries in favour of Starfleet, a paramilitary body incorporating all of the memberworlds which, amongst other things, takes care of the UFP's defense. Next to the civil defense forces the worlds have they mustn't field a recognizable military force. That's the basic consensus on how the federations' ideal of peace is achieved WITHIN the federation.
Both examples are non-canon material. My in-game character biography has as much impact on the IP as the novels or STO explaining how Bajor joined the UFP. Although, don't get me wrong, it is a good example. We see in the shows that Bajor has it's own militia, they even have orbital sub-warp fightercraft for defensive purposes and that's perfectly fine and legit. I'm just not sure that DS9 states that Bajor does join the UFP, I think the show ends on the note that they work towards joining. But my memory might be inaccurate, I admit I don't know
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I never fought THAT sentiment, that's what I am saying all along
Maybe. I won't fight that as well
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The answer is pretty simple - because it doesn't work like that in Star Trek.
STO on another hand is something completely different.
"they also affirm the rights and guarantees of individual Federation Member States. For example, before signing the Articles, the Andorian Empire insisted that the Constitution guarantee each individual Member State be allowed to maintain their own spaceforce and military, separate from the Federation Starfleet."
those are fully armed and full sized starships the vulcans, catians, and andor have (also, the ushan class (a saber variant) is an andorian design produced at andorian shipyards for starfleet).
y'know who i think should produce the federation frigate pet design?; the Bajorans. it would be nice to see their design style/philosophy in game.
Please include a source, it took a while to figure out you are quoting Memory Beta ( http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_Charter ) which takes that information from another Star Trek game, namely the "Last Unicorn RPG game". And as such, it's a non-canon source.
I suppose the Ushan Variant is from another game as well? But even if so, having a sabre variant contructed by andorians seems perfectly legit. They are, after all, Starfleet members.
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not just built, its an andorian design as well.
and until/unless cannon contradicts non-cannon, that is the federation charter we have, and i believe it is supported by a recent book Federation: the First 150 Years.
Then it's not a Sabre variant anymore, isn't it?
You can fire your cannons all day, but just because canon doesn't spell out one thing doesn't mean that non-canon material substitutes for it. Canon is everything that made it on screen, even if it contradicts production notes and the like because that is what happened. The next best source is production notes that complete on-screen evidence. To a certain degree this includes the technical manuals since they were meant as a guideline for writers to explain the tech side of things.. Everything else is not canon and as such is a "parallel universe" so to speak. That includes each and every book, each and every game (most of the times that's good, in some rare cases it's a pity) and each and every other material, licensed or unlicensed (of course).
The hard canon charta we have is this:
" CHARTER OF THE UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS
"We the lifeforms of the United Federation of Planets determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, and to reaffirm faith in the fundamental rights of sentient beings, in the dignity and worth of all lifeforms, in the equal rights of members of planetary systems large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of interstellar law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of living on all worlds..." " as it was displayed on-screen in ST:VOY.
Everything else I said is made up on the mindset portrayed in the creation of Star Trek and backed by production notes and the like but of course it is not hard canon per se. But the sentiment from unicorn that Andoria demanded independent military does contradict not only on-screen references about how all militaries were absorbed into Starfleet but it also logically contradicts the whole purpose of the UFP as seen above. If all worlds would keep their seperate, full scale militaries it would be a huge danger for the internal stability of the UFP. Memberworlds are only left with semi-autonomous sovereignity. They are free to handle their internal business and economic relatiuonships as long as those don't contradict the foundation principles of the UFP but they don't have the right to act independently in terms of foreign affairs. South Carolina isn't able to declare war on Indonesia, for example.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Currently using the Jem'Hadar deflector / engine, a MACO MK XI shield, and polaron beam arrays.
It seems overpriced compared to other endgame c-store ships:
2.500 Zen => 10 consoles, 1 special universal console:
- Vesta, Kumari, Odyssey, Bortasqu, Avenger, Mogh, Scimitar,
2.500 Zen => 9 consoles, 1 special universal console or built-in ability
- MVAE, Dreadnaught, Guramba, Haakona,
2.000 Zen => 9 consoles, 1 special universal console or built-in ability
- Intrepid, Armitage, Defiant, Galaxy, D'Kyr, Nebula, Excelsior, Karfi, D'deridex, Arkif, Mogai, Dhelan, Tvaro
so following that logic, it should either get a special console or built-in ability for that price, or have the price reduced to 2.000.
I'm pretty sure the price was set like that because it gave the Federation players the option to play a ship class exclusive to the Klingon faction. This was before the whole invasion of carriers in STO.
That's what i've posted on page 1... i mean it doesn't even have a frigate pet what is another hit compared to the Kar'Fi (That also costs 500 C less AND has a console...)
Yaaaay. Now I just want that Andorian Battlecruiser, about three more designs from the Vulcan Orbital Shipyard, and a Caitian escort... Cryptic seems terrible at designing Federation Starfleet ships, so I'd rather they go design other things that at least have potential not to suck.
I prefeer the vesta line, but is a good choice if u wanna try something diferent.
+10 to Atrox
Have good results with danube pets...
Greetings