exactly. without AtB, its a COM/LTC tac escort with a 14 base turn rate, thats not fleet level. at least on the non cloaking fed version, AtB is required to get it competing with other escorts. the AtB cooldown system change and the vet ship actually came out at the same patch, the first 2 AtB build anybody tried was on my fed vet ship.
The first Aux2Bat builds I saw in use came with the Time Ship, around the same time period and in line with the time folks started hitting Teir IV Starbase levels, when some of the more interesting fleet ships came available.
The readily available purple DOFFs from a Tier IV Starbase is what flooded the market with Techs, and gave broader access to the build for the larger community.
What got lost in all of that is that the great science nerf came about shortly afterwards, and the effect was less need for Aux in PvP. With Aux no longer needed in PvP the gradual widespread shift to A2B should have been predictable, and probably was predicted.
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Most ships you can make powerful without A2B, the only thing A2B allows is for it to be cheaper at the cost of 3 doffs, 1/2 Lt Engineering abilities and all your aux power for 14s.
Some common misconceptions are in danger of being made though.
A single A2B with tech doffs will hit same ability CD on any ability with a cool down over 30s. All those under that time will perhaps get 1 extra use if timed right and needed which when sorting all your other stuff out which may be more important costs timing, attention and planning. This is an additional cost that will make a difference between experienced users and inexperienced users.
Most tactical abilities will not benefit from a single A2B with tech doffs, the only one that does is the stupidly OP APO.
2 copies of A2B will get most abilities with a 30s cool down at a 15-20s cool down as we'll for the additional cost of 1 Lt engineering station. This also costs you in that your aux power will be going up and down like a yoyo. You need to divert attention to either keeping track of your ups and downs and allowing transfer times or you cycle it back to back which gives you a large window of no aux and possible aux offline mode making you very vulnerable to drains.
You also cannot use your science abilities on their same if you cycle it as they have a 30s same ability cool downs which is slap bang in the middle of your low aux time. This forces you to wait till 40-45s so is ironically not worth the reduction from 2. Exception being PH for tractor immunity as it is just as effective at 5 aux as at 100 aux.
This is why some people like Antonio say dual A2B is super fail, it kinda is for PvP. A single copy on cruisers can allow for some very powerful combinations with getting APO and PH cycling at same ability cool down for near 100% tractor immunity while spitting out warp plasma and using overcapped beams. However on its own it is not spectacular, it's powerful and in good hands will stand out but it is no different than any other ship in good hands.
Well...Cryptic backed themselves into the corner with A2B (+DOffs of course). There is no way to fix/nerf it without majorly upsetting someone. Any chance to it is going to be a poke in the eye to a section of the player base.
But first, a quick look at what I feel is the biggest reason A2B is a gamebreaker: DOff emulation (i.e. 3 A2B doffs gives you the effect a dozen or more DOffs).
All is good here right? Pretty basic A2B-FAW boat.
Well, look at exactly what those 3 Technician Doffs are giving the effect of:
2 Very Rare Conn Officers (TT variant)
3 Very Rare Conn Officers (attack pattern variant)
3 Very Rare Energy Weapons Officers (beam skill variant, except better due to Technician effect not being chance based)
3 Damage Control Engineers (EPtX variant, but with no chance based component)
2 Maintenance Engineers (ET variant)
And those are just the DOffs that already exist in game, Tech Doffs even give what is effectively at least 8 more very rare doff effects (assuming future doffs added for CD on RSP, DEM, HE, and TSS and requiring 2 to get full CD reductions)
So, A2B + Techs turns 3 DOff slots into 21 with that build...all chance of balance, or little balance we can get in game, is tossed right out the window. And with whatever going on that makes A2B stop draining Aux...there is no cost to making an A2B build work at maximum effect.
I see Cryptic having few options to bring the game back from A2B cookie-cutter land, but something like one of the following could help address it:
1) Increase global CD on A2B to 20 seconds.
2) Replace Aux power drain with Aux Offline.
3) Limit Technicians to 1 copy.
4) Replace 10% CD reduction with effect that scales with Aux power (capping at 10% per doff).
You also cannot use your science abilities on their same if you cycle it as they have a 30s same ability cool downs which is slap bang in the middle of your low aux time. This forces you to wait till 40-45s so is ironically not worth the reduction from 2. Exception being PH for tractor immunity as it is just as effective at 5 aux as at 100 aux.
This is why some people like Antonio say dual A2B is super fail, it kinda is for PvP. A single copy on cruisers can allow for some very powerful combinations with getting APO and PH cycling at same ability cool down for near 100% tractor immunity while spitting out warp plasma and using overcapped beams. However on its own it is not spectacular, it's powerful and in good hands will stand out but it is no different than any other ship in good hands.
I'd argue Sci abilities shouldn't be cycled, nor key bound. Granted I don't key bind b/c I've always preferred more of an off the cuff playstyle. But, Sci debuffs shouldn't be predictable and they should be watching a target's cycles much a like an alpha striker to find and exploit weaknesses. What would be the point of dumping many movement debuffs on a target that has APO up?
Also, most Sci cooldowns are better off w/a single copy b/c 2 copies just doesn't improve the cooldowns enough. Most Sci shared cooldowns are 2/3 or higher % of the single cooldown. The 2/3 ones are usually 30/45 where 31.5 is the 70% w/a single aux2batt.
However, there's still the effect of getting high end abilities on a shared cooldown that wouldn't be possible otherwise, GW3 or APO3 is doesn't matter. There are more than enough ways of manipulating Aux so it can be boosted during the 8 seconds aux2batt has it at 5, eg Aux battery, EPtA, ES, Plas Leech, Red Matter Cap, Singularity Core ability, etc.
The only thing I can think of that's better w/2x copies is TBs b/c of the weird way they're implemented. The shared cooldown starts when the TB is initiated, but the single cooldown starts when it ends. So, you can use TB3 and 3 seconds later toss out another copy.
It's not a minor boost, it's significant to have the boff cooldowns at shared. It allows for greater variety of boff powers and higher uptimes of the high end ones. The only question then is how powerful is the relevant boff power. That goes in cycles, before FaW it was BO Vapors, before that it was Cannon builds.
While, a single aux2batt couldn't get a cannon boff ability reduced to shared it still significantly reduced its downtime. This allowed the option of cycling crf and cvs, or waiting for crf to come back around quicker while a target's defenses were up.
Having done single commander Tac boff Raider builds w/o it, I can tell you it was a measurable w/it. Not to mention like you said w/the APO uptime increased and all the other powers like HE being much closer to 30 second uptime than 45.
The whole hybrid niche was it had reduced uptime of a variety of abilities to gain options other ships didn't have in boff layouts. The reduced uptime was the cost. It's not there anymore.
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the ships your talking about are mostly cruisers that need that much of a boost to be competitive with the likes of the best escorts
Should a 'Tactical Cruiser', which is effectively a hybrid combining higher hull and shield values with offensive power +higher tier Engineering abilities like EPTW 3, RSP 2/3, DEM 2/3, EWP 1/3, actually be "competitive with the likes of the best escorts"?
Let's be even more specific, which are the best escorts these cruisers are competing with?
The BTR 16 Fleet Patrol Escort, Fleet MVAE or Fleet Defiant (BTR 17)?
I'm not sure which "best escorts" you were referring to, but I have a feeling it was less those ships and more lockbox level escorts.
If you asked me to build a non-battle cloaking tac using DHCs with or without Beam Overload and you gave me a choice of those 3 ships, the Andorian Escort or the Avenger - my answer would be an A2B Avenger, hands down.
That pretty much says it all imo.
In every MMO I have ever played, once you have "hybrids" actively compete at equal or superior footing with the "best in class" of another class - you begin to lose reasons to field the specialist since the hybrid does its job but has better/other advantages elsewhere (in this case, better survivability primarily).
This next section isn't aimed at DDIS, and is just a statement on the forums/playerbase in general.
Unfortunately it became at some point popular to hate escorts, and it became a popular notion that other ships not designed for the role - even including science ships, should actually be able to do that role.
This sentiment is still prevalent on these boards, even though most actual escorts have been pushed out of their PvP niche by offensive cruisers/battle cruisers, engineering heavy destroyer hybrids and battle cloaking warbirds.
This sentiment is still prevalent on these boards, even though most actual escorts have been pushed out of their PvP niche by offensive cruisers/battle cruisers, engineering heavy destroyer hybrids and battle cloaking warbirds.
Pretty true. Crusier players are dying more cause there are fewer of us out there truly escorting them. Now they are having to deal with me cloaking and leaving them to die when the faw / gw spam starts up. I half joke seriously I'm not out there in my escort sharing tac teams deltas and removing flys on the cruisers anymore... if they can't handle themselves in a pug Its because they aren't running 24 boff skills... noobs.
I kid the truth is like everyone else I just don't play that style all that much anymore... if I do pvp lately I do iino ne of my science ships or cruisers... who needs to turn time buffs and play the game that's for noobs.
To be honest I don't hate escorts, but they were the go to ship for everything in PvE and you weren't exactly at a massive disadvantage having an all escort team in PvP back then. Course that was under the rule of Jem Hadar Attack Ship The first.
When Escorts started having more survivability than other ships...
edit: Mind you, that's not agreeing with AtB - never have. But it's also saying that it's not the only thing out of whack with the game.
I still say that that line was a load of bs... at least it wasn't entirely the case. (I think we can all admit the Jem H escort should never have existed with its current stats)
You still didn't see any teams field more then 2 escorts... its not because they couldn't always use more dmg... its because they where still squish and needed to have sci healing them.
+10 defense doesn't make a ship magic and survive anything... I found the main issue with the "escort" tank was other people refusing to change there builds. You could see many of the "escorts Online" complainers QQing in there Beam cruisers. Escorts are (and should) be the natural foil to cruisers... science ships are the natural (and they are) foil to escorts.
No one can tell me they have played there esort in a game against a half decent team with 2 good sci players where they felt "tanky" It just doesn't happen.
Do you feel tanky when the other team is loaded with kirking cruisers... well yes of course cruisers shouldn't be dualing escorts... they will loose... just as you can be sure no escort in there right mind should be trying to get into a 1v1 with a science ship unless they want to be respawning.
Aux2bat should go the way of aux2inerd. Always at global, but a bigger global cooldown
Sounds legit. Lets remove cooldowns from the game. But instead, let us give it reverse temporal global cooldown, that way you use the skill constantly before you even clicked on something.
Cruisers don't need AtB in order to be effective. They have cruiser commands now, that more than brings them up to par with other ship classes. Cryptic has also stated that they plan to add an ingame item to further boost those cruiser commands. Auxiliary to Battery is just one bridge officer ability, it shouldn't be the deciding force on whether or not a ship is viable and competitive.
which cruisers? the cruisers with a LTC and ENS tac dont NEED AtB, like say a COM/LTC eng cruiser does to create good DPS, but even those tac heavy ships still arent at their best without it. those cruiser commands are mostly fluff, they offer the tiniest bit of improvement in a few areas, even the drain res one isnt enough to make any cruisers deal damage with beam arrays best, the top 3 beam boats arent even cruisers. they arent necessarily AtB boats ether.
Auxiliary to Battery directly increases fire at will's damage via power overcap. Also, the cooldown reduction converts one copy of fire at will into two copies of fire at will with no cost to the bridge officer station. On top of that, all abilities the player is using to buff FAW will have those cooldowns reduced to global as well.
overcap thats pretty inconsistent. the cost in bridge officer stations comes in the category they have the most in, eng. eng stations sacrificed to get more out of the limited number of tac skills. it ends up not being significantly different then an escort just having more tac skills. as far as the uptimes of heals and RSP go, the escorts can still speed tank wile these AtB cruisers cannot.
The Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is a special case, we all know the ship has 7,000 more hull than a ship with that turn rate would normally have at it's disposal, it's why the JHAS is considered to be overpowered. The Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is also interestingly capable of using a full Auxiliary to Battery setup. Destroyers are fine at the moment. The Veteran ship has one Lt. Commander Universal and one Ensign Universal bridge officer station, that opens up a large number of opportunities. It also obtains extra hull strength for -2 turn rate.
that 14 base turn rate can make the ship all but incapable of having any decent amount of time on target with its cannons. no mater what AtB can do for it, if you are so totally out maneuvered you cant fight back, its pretty hard to call the ship competitive. more hitpoints? big deal, you cant protect yourself as well and you cant kill what your engaging. its not just against the bug that its a problem, but those are far to common these days to just be called a special case. almost every single match theres at least 1, if not 3.
Well...Cryptic backed themselves into the corner with A2B (+DOffs of course). There is no way to fix/nerf it without majorly upsetting someone. Any chance to it is going to be a poke in the eye to a section of the player base.
Well, look at exactly what those 3 Technician Doffs are giving the effect of:
2 Very Rare Conn Officers (TT variant)
3 Very Rare Conn Officers (attack pattern variant)
3 Very Rare Energy Weapons Officers (beam skill variant, except better due to Technician effect not being chance based)
3 Damage Control Engineers (EPtX variant, but with no chance based component)
2 Maintenance Engineers (ET variant)
And those are just the DOffs that already exist in game, Tech Doffs even give what is effectively at least 8 more very rare doff effects (assuming future doffs added for CD on RSP, DEM, HE, and TSS and requiring 2 to get full CD reductions)
So, A2B + Techs turns 3 DOff slots into 21 with that build...all chance of balance, or little balance we can get in game, is tossed right out the window. And with whatever going on that makes A2B stop draining Aux...there is no cost to making an A2B build work at maximum effect.
i maintain that befor tech doffs, cruisers were so underpowered that something as powerful as tech doffs, being able to do what those doffs do at the same time, was needed for them to get on par, and have the same worth as ether escorts or sci ships to a team. FAW is still a separate issue, and its snow ball effect.
with warbirds and all the destroyer hybrids, it becomes more debatable weather its too powerful, but like my vet ship example above, turn rate and evation are more important then all the cooldown reduction in the world, if you cant put it to effective use. not only was the vet ship down on turn rate, but its got the worst shield mods of any modern escort by far. at least the temporal had an above 1.0 shield mod, and 1 beter turn. after 2 or 3 turn consoles, thats a huge difference.
Should a 'Tactical Cruiser', which is effectively a hybrid combining higher hull and shield values with offensive power +higher tier Engineering abilities like EPTW 3, RSP 2/3, DEM 2/3, EWP 1/3, actually be "competitive with the likes of the best escorts"?
this is one of those on principle things. everything can tank, be all but invincible, from ship to ship and build to build. the difference is how long they can keep that up. so tanking isnt really a role, all ships having some sci and eng, and all the defensive creep saw to that. that took away whats supposed to be a cruisers role. also, making the best heals sci skills. so whats left is damage dealing, CC and dedicated healing, all handled best by ether a sci ship or escort. what does that leave cruisers with? RP? if those roles are owned and should not be shared, thats all you leave cruisers with. with the sci ship creep, without AtB or without FAW theres very little use for cruisers at all. thats all they can do, step on toes, and offend people that on principle think an escort should totally own damage dealing.
Let's be even more specific, which are the best escorts these cruisers are competing with?
The BTR 16 Fleet Patrol Escort, Fleet MVAE or Fleet Defiant (BTR 17)?
I'm not sure which "best escorts" you were referring to, but I have a feeling it was less those ships and more lockbox level escorts.
If you asked me to build a non-battle cloaking tac using DHCs with or without Beam Overload and you gave me a choice of those 3 ships, the Andorian Escort or the Avenger - my answer would be an A2B Avenger, hands down.
That pretty much says it all imo.
of those you listed, the avenger is the best FAW platform, so im not exactly surprised. best escorts? well, i suppose i could actually list them, i do refer to the top end escorts a lot.
bug- well of course. 1 of the big things with this is the lack of needing any turn rate buffing, compared to other 16 base escorts that need like 3 of them to match its base. so its like it has 3 more consoles then all other escorts just to start with.
MVAM- when seeped, bugish performance and LTC sci offense
elatchi scort- super flexible, could even run it like an AtB destroyer, built in LTC sci power
risan- again that built in turn advantage, and huge speed tanking
Plesh- technically a raider, but without BC is more like a fragile escort. built in turn advantage, fragility not that big of an issue so far for me, with any effort put into speed tanking and choosing wise times to engage
defiant- still plenty competitive with plenty of raw firepower and a bit beter then typical turn
chel Grett- escort? destroyer? warship? 3rd best beam boat, whatever it is.
andorian- an escort with 5 forward weapons. i facepalm at any complaining about a 5 fore weapon patrol escort
temperal destroyer- sort of half destroyer, half escort. majorly beefy stats, temporal set, not needing AtB with the COM and LT tac
COM tac warbirds- ya...
proboly forgetting a ship or 2 i'd add. those arent in a ranked order or anything
are any of these easier to use then some FAW AtB boat? no, but they sure as hell are more effective on their own. witiling down, for everyone's complaining about how OP beams are these days, does NOT out do good old spike when you can maximize it. its like you have all forgot that, or got lazy.
In every MMO I have ever played, once you have "hybrids" actively compete at equal or superior footing with the "best in class" of another class - you begin to lose reasons to field the specialist since the hybrid does its job but has better/other advantages elsewhere (in this case, better survivability primarily).
i dont get the superior survivability thing, i really dont. nothing is better at surviving then the thing that cant be hit, or doesn't have to spend the whole fight at the center of all the cross fire. i die SO much less in escorts then i do cruisers, and i can tank incredibly well in cruisers. you need to fly these ships completely differently though. i use DHC battle cruisers a ton as well, but i fly escorts much differently then i do BCs. they are slower, sliding, stick around tank damage ships, escorts should only be in a fight they started and they chose. people that cant survive in escorts, and especially warbirds, dont know what the word disengage means.
these slow cruisers with beam arrays dont have the deal closing spike the 'specialists do, save for that one very large warbird that just should not be allowed to equip beams at all.
This next section isn't aimed at DDIS, and is just a statement on the forums/playerbase in general.
Unfortunately it became at some point popular to hate escorts, and it became a popular notion that other ships not designed for the role - even including science ships, should actually be able to do that role.
This sentiment is still prevalent on these boards, even though most actual escorts have been pushed out of their PvP niche by offensive cruisers/battle cruisers, engineering heavy destroyer hybrids and battle cloaking warbirds.
ive been doing this tac cruiser 'FOTM' thing for years, but i never hated escorts, i used them too. i made both work well enough, and got a suficent amount of fun from each to havekept on playing. those that didn't seem to hate 1 or the other. whats become even more popular is to totally turn your back on escorts and forget what they are good at, and what they can do, and instead fly easy mode FAW boats instead, exploiting the FAW snowball effect. if they would just solve this FAW issue i think we will come out of all this with the most separate but equal ways of dealing damage ever.
The Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is a special case, we all know the ship has 7,000 more hull than a ship with that turn rate would normally have at it's disposal, it's why the JHAS is considered to be overpowered. The Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is also interestingly capable of using a full Auxiliary to Battery setup. Destroyers are fine at the moment. The Veteran ship has one Lt. Commander Universal and one Ensign Universal bridge officer station, that opens up a large number of opportunities. It also obtains extra hull strength for -2 turn rate.
I don't entirely agree, the main strength of the bug is first the turn rate then the impulse modifier. Then the hull, but nowadays there are so many fleet escorts that have more, but there is no other ship with this impulse modifier and turn rate (the fleet vet ships have .22 impulse, same as bug). I wouldn't use A2B on a bug bottom line, especially a double A2B, unless whoever uses it wants to die quickly...
Auxiliary to Battery directly increases fire at will's damage via power overcap. Also, the cooldown reduction converts one copy of fire at will into two copies of fire at will with no cost to the bridge officer station. On top of that, all abilities the player is using to buff FAW will have those cooldowns reduced to global as well.
Didn't they mess up (or "adjusted") the overcap for beams recently? Not saying you're not right, but that's what I heard (haven't played w beams in a while).
Well, look at exactly what those 3 Technician Doffs are giving the effect of:
2 Very Rare Conn Officers (TT variant)
3 Very Rare Conn Officers (attack pattern variant)
3 Very Rare Energy Weapons Officers (beam skill variant, except better due to Technician effect not being chance based)
3 Damage Control Engineers (EPtX variant, but with no chance based component)
2 Maintenance Engineers (ET variant)
Agree, this is too good. But, this was meant to improve cruisers, that, as drunk also said, are used bu maybe more than half of players. Plus, this A2B build centric cruiser is really doing somethig good for cruisers, they are not worthless anymore. This should be limited for cruiser, maybe change the A2B as to be a lt commander ability?
4) Replace 10% CD reduction with effect that scales with Aux power (capping at 10% per doff).
1 may be a good start, 2 maybe is doable but in theory if you cast A2b at 50 aux, you should get to 0 for A2b duration, except if you pop an aux battery or other means to increase your aux power. Disabling the whole aux when you can possibly increase aux power after casting A2b would not be a good idea. I'd go somewhere else, I'd just get the aux power, divide it by 3 and give that flat out bonus to each system. It is still a decent bonus, and as long as the power bonus is in effect, then the aux is on 0, unless there is another mean to boost aux power (leech, batteries, etc) Limiting to 1 technician will definitely make the A2B builds not used by anybody. 4 may work for people that have high aux power, but if one of the above would happen, then I think we won't need 4.
Should a 'Tactical Cruiser', which is effectively a hybrid combining higher hull and shield values with offensive power +higher tier Engineering abilities like EPTW 3, RSP 2/3, DEM 2/3, EWP 1/3, actually be "competitive with the likes of the best escorts"?
Quite honestly, I think it should. A tac cruiser should always beat a tac escort IMO (similar player skills). But, I agree this whole A2B bonanza got abused a little. All you need is a good cruiser with a decent turn (or the vet fleet destroyer), put 1 or 2 A2B, leech and 1-2 flow cap, 1-2 DEM, Marion, fly in circles with FAW and hit spacebar. You fry everything with almost no skills.
Unfortunately it became at some point popular to hate escorts, and it became a popular notion that other ships not designed for the role - even including science ships, should actually be able to do that role.
This sentiment is still prevalent on these boards, even though most actual escorts have been pushed out of their PvP niche by offensive cruisers/battle cruisers, engineering heavy destroyer hybrids and battle cloaking warbirds.
It is annoying but in the same time it is what Cryptic did for the majority of players since they do fly cruisers and wanna be Kirks. Still, I find it more challenging and fun to fly an tac/escort. Or a sci/escort or sci/sci.
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When Escorts started having more survivability than other ships...
This never actually happened and is one of the many fallacies perpetuated on these boards.
Don't mistake quality of players you see for what ships can actually do.
Anyone who thinks "escorts" had the same, or even "near" much less "more" survivability than other ships has either never come across or forgot what its like to run across a hardcore healer in a cruiser or carrier like Renim or Trinity while they not only make themselves borderline un-killable but managed to keep a team of PUGs alive at the same time.
Escorts were never, ever, that survivable. Ever. Not even with an engineer flying one.
this is one of those on principle things. everything can tank, be all but invincible, from ship to ship and build to build. the difference is how long they can keep that up. so tanking isnt really a role, all ships having some sci and eng, and all the defensive creep saw to that. that took away whats supposed to be a cruisers role.
These are kirk principles and not team principles.
I don't agree with that. Aux to SIF, ET 2/3, ES - these are all critical heals for teams, that's why healers like Renim run a cruiser or players who can afford more run super hybrids that have a ton of Engineering stations like the Recluse.
This gets closer to the role than what you mentioned above, because it's only the ships that have the ability to slot enough Engineering to cover self mitigation +healers that can run a heavy healboat (and then yes, have a solid dose of Sci up to LTC ideally) - unfortunately yes power creep with several ships like the Wells, Recluse and Pallisade pushed that away from Cruisers - although none of them actually run pressure FAW + Heal hybrids that once were dominant and have now made something of a comeback (in that they are in fact clear possibility right now).
so whats left is damage dealing, CC and dedicated healing, all handled best by ether a sci ship or escort. what does that leave cruisers with? RP?
Just as I've put above. Either hardcore healboats or hybrid heal+support fire.
What they shouldn't be able to do is complete damage dealer replacement, because replacement is bad and destroys the niche for the specialist.
Which is what happens when you can have a Tac ship with RSP on 60s CD, EPTS & EPTW, DEM or EWP, APO, CRF or BFAW, perma TT, and enough turn rate to make cannons work even though massed BFAW is the stronger option right now.
if those roles are owned and should not be shared, thats all you leave cruisers with.
It's not about not sharing with the hybrid, its about not giving it the entire niche.
There's a difference, but unfortunately the gradient in this game isn't fine tuned enough where the cruiser has a bit more survivability at the cost of a bit less damage.
It's entirely possible to have more survivability as well as more damage. That's what is problematic.
nothing is better at surviving then the thing that cant be hit, or doesn't have to spend the whole fight at the center of all the cross fire. i die SO much less in escorts then i do cruisers, and i can tank incredibly well in cruisers.
The only thing I can think of is that maybe you're not facing that coordinated of opposition all of the time.
I'm not really sure tbh, because I've never actually gotten the chance to play with or against you - so I'm just guessing.
I can say though that in the premades I've been in, outside of when the other team wants to try breaking a healer the more dangerous the damage dealer is the more likely it is they will be constantly hammered with focus fire and debuffs, sucking on controls, SNBs, etc for an entire match.
There is no such thing as "unhittable" escorts in premades, they are always at the center of cross fire, there is no where to run and running generally means failing your team mates.
There are escorts that stick with the team, get support and remain alive and there are escorts that don't get enough support or get it too late and get dead. Unhittable is a fallacy in these scenarios and running out of range can mean one less TT thrower for your healers, one less attractive target to keep heat off the support ships or other damage dealers.
You act like cruisers are doing so much more damage than escorts. They may be doing more damage, but its not nearly what you make it out to be. Aux2batt is actually what makes my cruiser such a good tank, and seeing as it only has 2 tac consoles, I doubt very much its doing anywhere near the damage an escort can achieve. Yeah, I can reactivate certain abilities faster, but at a cost. I lose pretty much all aux power abilities, since maintaining aux power is nearly impossible using 2, and using just 1 gives me about half the effectiveness, but with an added eng ability. According to you, the reason you started this thread is because cruisers are beating escorts. So, escorts should adapt and learn.
The only thing I can think of is that maybe you're not facing that coordinated of opposition all of the time.
I'm not really sure tbh, because I've never actually gotten the chance to play with or against you - so I'm just guessing.
I can say though that in the premades I've been in, outside of when the other team wants to try breaking a healer the more dangerous the damage dealer is the more likely it is they will be constantly hammered with focus fire and debuffs, sucking on controls, SNBs, etc for an entire match.
There is no such thing as "unhittable" escorts in premades, they are always at the center of cross fire, there is no where to run and running generally means failing your team mates.
There are escorts that stick with the team, get support and remain alive and there are escorts that don't get enough support or get it too late and get dead. Unhittable is a fallacy in these scenarios and running out of range can mean one less TT thrower for your healers, one less attractive target to keep heat off the support ships or other damage dealers.
This is exactly what I was thinking before you wrote it. You are used to think in term of a coordinated team, and I think everybody should think like you, but the reality of this game is not anymore so team centric as it used to be. This game was initially designed to be played in team support, but other than premades or other lucky pugs, this does not quite happen anymore. Other than few premades, most people (from the few that pvp) are going in public queues, when we all know you never know what you get in. Usually as a pug you either face a premade and you loose in less than 5 minutes, either find yourself on your own with no support and face some other opponents that don't really play as a team. Other than obvious pve reasons, all this A2B thing started from people complaining that the cruiser endurance suffers and they get their shiny Odyssey trashed in few seconds.That hasn't happened because of cruiser fault, it happened (we all know it) because of bad choices (build, ship, etc) and bad team support. The tac excelsior was a feared opponent way before this Doff implementation took place, so yea, there were good cruisers before A2B.
Side note: I see so many beam scorts lately in Kerrat (heck I even saw a FAW bug beam boat, lol), with faw or without, with a2b or a2sif (+ doffs) and even with EPE3... I can't think I will ever see that in a premade. But for pugging they are efficient, even if their role as a big spike damage dealer is a joke.
The main idea I wanted to highlight is that apparently the game philosophy is changing into more self-survivability rather than a specific role each type of ship/player class should have. There are goods and bads on each side, and from your point of view, as a team tactician, this is definitely a bad approach which I one understand completely.
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Hear! Daughters too.
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The Warrior brave and true.
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I'm inclined to believe team pvp queues have always been team oriented. That doesn't mean this game has moved from team pvp to 1v1... there has always been a mix batch of both. I for one don't like team pvp.
I for one find 1v3s interesting but now they aren't as fun because of a2b/faw whatever mix combination of junk causes beams to do absolutely ridiculous damage for nearly 360 arc weapons.
just out of curiosity, has anyone tried a AtD/AtB build?
A friend of mine tried it out, apparently it's nothing short of awesome. If you have 3 purple tech doffs the cooldowns just about line up with a few seconds downtime.
I do Pvp all the time
i do as good as most escorts players
the prob is the ship class was @#$% up
all ship have roles and make long story shot
escorts have gotten to big for their warp core
most escorts cheep and expendable and are not as OP as game has lead on
what the prob is hear is that your trying to fit to much on your escort
if escort players what a tougher ship get higher ship class
just out of curiosity, has anyone tried a AtD/AtB build?
We run this more than 2xA2B or 2xA2D on my teams. Our fights are short (15secs) so we don't need two of either skill. One to get the refresh and the other to give protection and speed if things go wonky.
Works very well on BoPs that wish to maintain high Aux power under stealth that gets flipped automatically to weapons and back again to Aux on an attack run.
You know Cryptic has Jumped the Proverbial Shark when they introduced Tractor Pulling to Star Trek Online!
A friend of mine tried it out, apparently it's nothing short of awesome. If you have 3 purple tech doffs the cooldowns just about line up with a few seconds downtime.
We run this more than 2xA2B or 2xA2D on my teams. Our fights are short (15secs) so we don't need two of either skill. One to get the refresh and the other to give protection and speed if things go wonky.
Works very well on BoPs that wish to maintain high Aux power under stealth that gets flipped automatically to weapons and back again to Aux on an attack run.
I have been playing with the same on my Mogh and other than a overlap in lack of Aux when the AtD fires Im finding it works well.
Inuse only 2 Tchnicians, 1 AD doff though. I have noticed that after AtB fires that AtD is often not done with its ScDbefore the Aux regens so either a dlight pauee is needed or a manual firing is neeeded.
Curiuosly enough as the Aux returns the effectiveness of AtD climbs in relation if it is qctive.
I have been playing with the same on my Mogh and other than a overlap in lack of Aux when the AtD fires Im finding it works well.
Inuse only 2 Tchnicians, 1 AD doff though. I have noticed that after AtB fires that AtD is often not done with its ScDbefore the Aux regens so either a dlight pauee is needed or a manual firing is neeeded. Curiuosly enough as the Aux returns the effectiveness of AtD climbs in relation if it is qctive.
I don't know when this started, but it is happening. Powers that use aux, in the past, were fixed at their intensity when you fired them, now they seem variable. It's not just power level either, it's also skill stats. For instance, if you fire a GW under the T5 Romulan Sci Buff (+100), it will be crazy strong until that buff wears off and then return to it's normal levels. If that had happened in the past the intensity of that Gravity Well would have remained the same until the GW went away.
edit: Not sure if it is intended or not either. Maybe this was a ninja-balance fix for some of the power creep we've been seeing.
I do Pvp all the time
i do as good as most escorts players
the prob is the ship class was @#$% up
all ship have roles and make long story shot
escorts have gotten to big for their warp core
most escorts cheep and expendable and are not as OP as game has lead on
what the prob is hear is that your trying to fit to much on your escort
if escort players what a tougher ship get higher ship class
Cruisers need some love the right way......
is that photonic officer on an a2b build? hrm, you may have to detail that one a little bit more... where does it help out? im interested...
also....
sci ships > cruisers > escorts.
thats the way i see it, i think its been that way for a while.
have fun kill bad guys
edit: that being said....man do i love flying escorts the most. and yes, the bug ship can still outclass many. but i dropped it a while back for something with way more punch....if it is a little less agile/defensive.... the charal.
I don't know when this started, but it is happening. Powers that use aux, in the past, were fixed at their intensity when you fired them, now they seem variable. It's not just power level either, it's also skill stats. For instance, if you fire a GW under the T5 Romulan Sci Buff (+100), it will be crazy strong until that buff wears off and then return to it's normal levels. If that had happened in the past the intensity of that Gravity Well would have remained the same until the GW went away.
edit: Not sure if it is intended or not either. Maybe this was a ninja-balance fix for some of the power creep we've been seeing.
Comments
The first Aux2Bat builds I saw in use came with the Time Ship, around the same time period and in line with the time folks started hitting Teir IV Starbase levels, when some of the more interesting fleet ships came available.
The readily available purple DOFFs from a Tier IV Starbase is what flooded the market with Techs, and gave broader access to the build for the larger community.
What got lost in all of that is that the great science nerf came about shortly afterwards, and the effect was less need for Aux in PvP. With Aux no longer needed in PvP the gradual widespread shift to A2B should have been predictable, and probably was predicted.
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Space duty officers are the problem
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
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Some common misconceptions are in danger of being made though.
A single A2B with tech doffs will hit same ability CD on any ability with a cool down over 30s. All those under that time will perhaps get 1 extra use if timed right and needed which when sorting all your other stuff out which may be more important costs timing, attention and planning. This is an additional cost that will make a difference between experienced users and inexperienced users.
Most tactical abilities will not benefit from a single A2B with tech doffs, the only one that does is the stupidly OP APO.
2 copies of A2B will get most abilities with a 30s cool down at a 15-20s cool down as we'll for the additional cost of 1 Lt engineering station. This also costs you in that your aux power will be going up and down like a yoyo. You need to divert attention to either keeping track of your ups and downs and allowing transfer times or you cycle it back to back which gives you a large window of no aux and possible aux offline mode making you very vulnerable to drains.
You also cannot use your science abilities on their same if you cycle it as they have a 30s same ability cool downs which is slap bang in the middle of your low aux time. This forces you to wait till 40-45s so is ironically not worth the reduction from 2. Exception being PH for tractor immunity as it is just as effective at 5 aux as at 100 aux.
This is why some people like Antonio say dual A2B is super fail, it kinda is for PvP. A single copy on cruisers can allow for some very powerful combinations with getting APO and PH cycling at same ability cool down for near 100% tractor immunity while spitting out warp plasma and using overcapped beams. However on its own it is not spectacular, it's powerful and in good hands will stand out but it is no different than any other ship in good hands.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
But first, a quick look at what I feel is the biggest reason A2B is a gamebreaker: DOff emulation (i.e. 3 A2B doffs gives you the effect a dozen or more DOffs).
We'll start by looking at DDIS's A2B Excel build (please don't take this the wrong way DDIS, your thread is a great resource):
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=12617271&postcount=959
Cmdr Eng: EPtS1, A2B1, RSP2, DEM3
Lt Cmdr Tac: TT1, APB1, FAW3
Lt Eng: EPtW1, A2B1
Lt Sci: TSS1, HE2
Ens Eng: ET1
With 3 Very Rare Technicians
All is good here right? Pretty basic A2B-FAW boat.
Well, look at exactly what those 3 Technician Doffs are giving the effect of:
2 Very Rare Conn Officers (TT variant)
3 Very Rare Conn Officers (attack pattern variant)
3 Very Rare Energy Weapons Officers (beam skill variant, except better due to Technician effect not being chance based)
3 Damage Control Engineers (EPtX variant, but with no chance based component)
2 Maintenance Engineers (ET variant)
And those are just the DOffs that already exist in game, Tech Doffs even give what is effectively at least 8 more very rare doff effects (assuming future doffs added for CD on RSP, DEM, HE, and TSS and requiring 2 to get full CD reductions)
So, A2B + Techs turns 3 DOff slots into 21 with that build...all chance of balance, or little balance we can get in game, is tossed right out the window. And with whatever going on that makes A2B stop draining Aux...there is no cost to making an A2B build work at maximum effect.
I see Cryptic having few options to bring the game back from A2B cookie-cutter land, but something like one of the following could help address it:
1) Increase global CD on A2B to 20 seconds.
2) Replace Aux power drain with Aux Offline.
3) Limit Technicians to 1 copy.
4) Replace 10% CD reduction with effect that scales with Aux power (capping at 10% per doff).
I'd argue Sci abilities shouldn't be cycled, nor key bound. Granted I don't key bind b/c I've always preferred more of an off the cuff playstyle. But, Sci debuffs shouldn't be predictable and they should be watching a target's cycles much a like an alpha striker to find and exploit weaknesses. What would be the point of dumping many movement debuffs on a target that has APO up?
Also, most Sci cooldowns are better off w/a single copy b/c 2 copies just doesn't improve the cooldowns enough. Most Sci shared cooldowns are 2/3 or higher % of the single cooldown. The 2/3 ones are usually 30/45 where 31.5 is the 70% w/a single aux2batt.
However, there's still the effect of getting high end abilities on a shared cooldown that wouldn't be possible otherwise, GW3 or APO3 is doesn't matter. There are more than enough ways of manipulating Aux so it can be boosted during the 8 seconds aux2batt has it at 5, eg Aux battery, EPtA, ES, Plas Leech, Red Matter Cap, Singularity Core ability, etc.
The only thing I can think of that's better w/2x copies is TBs b/c of the weird way they're implemented. The shared cooldown starts when the TB is initiated, but the single cooldown starts when it ends. So, you can use TB3 and 3 seconds later toss out another copy.
It's not a minor boost, it's significant to have the boff cooldowns at shared. It allows for greater variety of boff powers and higher uptimes of the high end ones. The only question then is how powerful is the relevant boff power. That goes in cycles, before FaW it was BO Vapors, before that it was Cannon builds.
While, a single aux2batt couldn't get a cannon boff ability reduced to shared it still significantly reduced its downtime. This allowed the option of cycling crf and cvs, or waiting for crf to come back around quicker while a target's defenses were up.
Having done single commander Tac boff Raider builds w/o it, I can tell you it was a measurable w/it. Not to mention like you said w/the APO uptime increased and all the other powers like HE being much closer to 30 second uptime than 45.
The whole hybrid niche was it had reduced uptime of a variety of abilities to gain options other ships didn't have in boff layouts. The reduced uptime was the cost. It's not there anymore.
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C&H Fed banter
Should a 'Tactical Cruiser', which is effectively a hybrid combining higher hull and shield values with offensive power +higher tier Engineering abilities like EPTW 3, RSP 2/3, DEM 2/3, EWP 1/3, actually be "competitive with the likes of the best escorts"?
Let's be even more specific, which are the best escorts these cruisers are competing with?
The BTR 16 Fleet Patrol Escort, Fleet MVAE or Fleet Defiant (BTR 17)?
I'm not sure which "best escorts" you were referring to, but I have a feeling it was less those ships and more lockbox level escorts.
If you asked me to build a non-battle cloaking tac using DHCs with or without Beam Overload and you gave me a choice of those 3 ships, the Andorian Escort or the Avenger - my answer would be an A2B Avenger, hands down.
That pretty much says it all imo.
In every MMO I have ever played, once you have "hybrids" actively compete at equal or superior footing with the "best in class" of another class - you begin to lose reasons to field the specialist since the hybrid does its job but has better/other advantages elsewhere (in this case, better survivability primarily).
This next section isn't aimed at DDIS, and is just a statement on the forums/playerbase in general.
Unfortunately it became at some point popular to hate escorts, and it became a popular notion that other ships not designed for the role - even including science ships, should actually be able to do that role.
This sentiment is still prevalent on these boards, even though most actual escorts have been pushed out of their PvP niche by offensive cruisers/battle cruisers, engineering heavy destroyer hybrids and battle cloaking warbirds.
Pretty true. Crusier players are dying more cause there are fewer of us out there truly escorting them.
I kid the truth is like everyone else I just don't play that style all that much anymore... if I do pvp lately I do iino ne of my science ships or cruisers... who needs to turn time buffs and play the game that's for noobs.
To be honest I don't hate escorts, but they were the go to ship for everything in PvE and you weren't exactly at a massive disadvantage having an all escort team in PvP back then. Course that was under the rule of Jem Hadar Attack Ship The first.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I still say that that line was a load of bs... at least it wasn't entirely the case. (I think we can all admit the Jem H escort should never have existed with its current stats)
You still didn't see any teams field more then 2 escorts... its not because they couldn't always use more dmg... its because they where still squish and needed to have sci healing them.
+10 defense doesn't make a ship magic and survive anything... I found the main issue with the "escort" tank was other people refusing to change there builds. You could see many of the "escorts Online" complainers QQing in there Beam cruisers. Escorts are (and should) be the natural foil to cruisers... science ships are the natural (and they are) foil to escorts.
No one can tell me they have played there esort in a game against a half decent team with 2 good sci players where they felt "tanky" It just doesn't happen.
Do you feel tanky when the other team is loaded with kirking cruisers... well yes of course cruisers shouldn't be dualing escorts... they will loose... just as you can be sure no escort in there right mind should be trying to get into a 1v1 with a science ship unless they want to be respawning.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
With a 5 aux power cap
Cruisers are for cruising around. So says my friend, so say we all! Yes I discriminate against inanimate objects.
Sounds legit. Lets remove cooldowns from the game. But instead, let us give it reverse temporal global cooldown, that way you use the skill constantly before you even clicked on something.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
I'd like to see you watch my cruiser and still call it inanimate :P
which cruisers? the cruisers with a LTC and ENS tac dont NEED AtB, like say a COM/LTC eng cruiser does to create good DPS, but even those tac heavy ships still arent at their best without it. those cruiser commands are mostly fluff, they offer the tiniest bit of improvement in a few areas, even the drain res one isnt enough to make any cruisers deal damage with beam arrays best, the top 3 beam boats arent even cruisers. they arent necessarily AtB boats ether.
overcap thats pretty inconsistent. the cost in bridge officer stations comes in the category they have the most in, eng. eng stations sacrificed to get more out of the limited number of tac skills. it ends up not being significantly different then an escort just having more tac skills. as far as the uptimes of heals and RSP go, the escorts can still speed tank wile these AtB cruisers cannot.
that 14 base turn rate can make the ship all but incapable of having any decent amount of time on target with its cannons. no mater what AtB can do for it, if you are so totally out maneuvered you cant fight back, its pretty hard to call the ship competitive. more hitpoints? big deal, you cant protect yourself as well and you cant kill what your engaging. its not just against the bug that its a problem, but those are far to common these days to just be called a special case. almost every single match theres at least 1, if not 3.
i maintain that befor tech doffs, cruisers were so underpowered that something as powerful as tech doffs, being able to do what those doffs do at the same time, was needed for them to get on par, and have the same worth as ether escorts or sci ships to a team. FAW is still a separate issue, and its snow ball effect.
with warbirds and all the destroyer hybrids, it becomes more debatable weather its too powerful, but like my vet ship example above, turn rate and evation are more important then all the cooldown reduction in the world, if you cant put it to effective use. not only was the vet ship down on turn rate, but its got the worst shield mods of any modern escort by far. at least the temporal had an above 1.0 shield mod, and 1 beter turn. after 2 or 3 turn consoles, thats a huge difference.
this is one of those on principle things. everything can tank, be all but invincible, from ship to ship and build to build. the difference is how long they can keep that up. so tanking isnt really a role, all ships having some sci and eng, and all the defensive creep saw to that. that took away whats supposed to be a cruisers role. also, making the best heals sci skills. so whats left is damage dealing, CC and dedicated healing, all handled best by ether a sci ship or escort. what does that leave cruisers with? RP? if those roles are owned and should not be shared, thats all you leave cruisers with. with the sci ship creep, without AtB or without FAW theres very little use for cruisers at all. thats all they can do, step on toes, and offend people that on principle think an escort should totally own damage dealing.
of those you listed, the avenger is the best FAW platform, so im not exactly surprised. best escorts? well, i suppose i could actually list them, i do refer to the top end escorts a lot.
bug- well of course. 1 of the big things with this is the lack of needing any turn rate buffing, compared to other 16 base escorts that need like 3 of them to match its base. so its like it has 3 more consoles then all other escorts just to start with.
MVAM- when seeped, bugish performance and LTC sci offense
elatchi scort- super flexible, could even run it like an AtB destroyer, built in LTC sci power
risan- again that built in turn advantage, and huge speed tanking
Plesh- technically a raider, but without BC is more like a fragile escort. built in turn advantage, fragility not that big of an issue so far for me, with any effort put into speed tanking and choosing wise times to engage
defiant- still plenty competitive with plenty of raw firepower and a bit beter then typical turn
chel Grett- escort? destroyer? warship? 3rd best beam boat, whatever it is.
andorian- an escort with 5 forward weapons. i facepalm at any complaining about a 5 fore weapon patrol escort
temperal destroyer- sort of half destroyer, half escort. majorly beefy stats, temporal set, not needing AtB with the COM and LT tac
COM tac warbirds- ya...
proboly forgetting a ship or 2 i'd add. those arent in a ranked order or anything
are any of these easier to use then some FAW AtB boat? no, but they sure as hell are more effective on their own. witiling down, for everyone's complaining about how OP beams are these days, does NOT out do good old spike when you can maximize it. its like you have all forgot that, or got lazy.
i dont get the superior survivability thing, i really dont. nothing is better at surviving then the thing that cant be hit, or doesn't have to spend the whole fight at the center of all the cross fire. i die SO much less in escorts then i do cruisers, and i can tank incredibly well in cruisers. you need to fly these ships completely differently though. i use DHC battle cruisers a ton as well, but i fly escorts much differently then i do BCs. they are slower, sliding, stick around tank damage ships, escorts should only be in a fight they started and they chose. people that cant survive in escorts, and especially warbirds, dont know what the word disengage means.
these slow cruisers with beam arrays dont have the deal closing spike the 'specialists do, save for that one very large warbird that just should not be allowed to equip beams at all.
ive been doing this tac cruiser 'FOTM' thing for years, but i never hated escorts, i used them too. i made both work well enough, and got a suficent amount of fun from each to havekept on playing. those that didn't seem to hate 1 or the other. whats become even more popular is to totally turn your back on escorts and forget what they are good at, and what they can do, and instead fly easy mode FAW boats instead, exploiting the FAW snowball effect. if they would just solve this FAW issue i think we will come out of all this with the most separate but equal ways of dealing damage ever.
I don't entirely agree, the main strength of the bug is first the turn rate then the impulse modifier. Then the hull, but nowadays there are so many fleet escorts that have more, but there is no other ship with this impulse modifier and turn rate (the fleet vet ships have .22 impulse, same as bug). I wouldn't use A2B on a bug bottom line, especially a double A2B, unless whoever uses it wants to die quickly...
Didn't they mess up (or "adjusted") the overcap for beams recently? Not saying you're not right, but that's what I heard (haven't played w beams in a while).
Agree, this is too good. But, this was meant to improve cruisers, that, as drunk also said, are used bu maybe more than half of players. Plus, this A2B build centric cruiser is really doing somethig good for cruisers, they are not worthless anymore. This should be limited for cruiser, maybe change the A2B as to be a lt commander ability?
1 may be a good start, 2 maybe is doable but in theory if you cast A2b at 50 aux, you should get to 0 for A2b duration, except if you pop an aux battery or other means to increase your aux power. Disabling the whole aux when you can possibly increase aux power after casting A2b would not be a good idea. I'd go somewhere else, I'd just get the aux power, divide it by 3 and give that flat out bonus to each system. It is still a decent bonus, and as long as the power bonus is in effect, then the aux is on 0, unless there is another mean to boost aux power (leech, batteries, etc) Limiting to 1 technician will definitely make the A2B builds not used by anybody. 4 may work for people that have high aux power, but if one of the above would happen, then I think we won't need 4.
Quite honestly, I think it should. A tac cruiser should always beat a tac escort IMO (similar player skills). But, I agree this whole A2B bonanza got abused a little. All you need is a good cruiser with a decent turn (or the vet fleet destroyer), put 1 or 2 A2B, leech and 1-2 flow cap, 1-2 DEM, Marion, fly in circles with FAW and hit spacebar. You fry everything with almost no skills.
It is annoying but in the same time it is what Cryptic did for the majority of players since they do fly cruisers and wanna be Kirks. Still, I find it more challenging and fun to fly an tac/escort. Or a sci/escort or sci/sci.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
This never actually happened and is one of the many fallacies perpetuated on these boards.
Don't mistake quality of players you see for what ships can actually do.
Anyone who thinks "escorts" had the same, or even "near" much less "more" survivability than other ships has either never come across or forgot what its like to run across a hardcore healer in a cruiser or carrier like Renim or Trinity while they not only make themselves borderline un-killable but managed to keep a team of PUGs alive at the same time.
Escorts were never, ever, that survivable. Ever. Not even with an engineer flying one.
These are kirk principles and not team principles.
I don't agree with that. Aux to SIF, ET 2/3, ES - these are all critical heals for teams, that's why healers like Renim run a cruiser or players who can afford more run super hybrids that have a ton of Engineering stations like the Recluse.
This gets closer to the role than what you mentioned above, because it's only the ships that have the ability to slot enough Engineering to cover self mitigation +healers that can run a heavy healboat (and then yes, have a solid dose of Sci up to LTC ideally) - unfortunately yes power creep with several ships like the Wells, Recluse and Pallisade pushed that away from Cruisers - although none of them actually run pressure FAW + Heal hybrids that once were dominant and have now made something of a comeback (in that they are in fact clear possibility right now).
Just as I've put above. Either hardcore healboats or hybrid heal+support fire.
What they shouldn't be able to do is complete damage dealer replacement, because replacement is bad and destroys the niche for the specialist.
Which is what happens when you can have a Tac ship with RSP on 60s CD, EPTS & EPTW, DEM or EWP, APO, CRF or BFAW, perma TT, and enough turn rate to make cannons work even though massed BFAW is the stronger option right now.
It's not about not sharing with the hybrid, its about not giving it the entire niche.
There's a difference, but unfortunately the gradient in this game isn't fine tuned enough where the cruiser has a bit more survivability at the cost of a bit less damage.
It's entirely possible to have more survivability as well as more damage. That's what is problematic.
The only thing I can think of is that maybe you're not facing that coordinated of opposition all of the time.
I'm not really sure tbh, because I've never actually gotten the chance to play with or against you - so I'm just guessing.
I can say though that in the premades I've been in, outside of when the other team wants to try breaking a healer the more dangerous the damage dealer is the more likely it is they will be constantly hammered with focus fire and debuffs, sucking on controls, SNBs, etc for an entire match.
There is no such thing as "unhittable" escorts in premades, they are always at the center of cross fire, there is no where to run and running generally means failing your team mates.
There are escorts that stick with the team, get support and remain alive and there are escorts that don't get enough support or get it too late and get dead. Unhittable is a fallacy in these scenarios and running out of range can mean one less TT thrower for your healers, one less attractive target to keep heat off the support ships or other damage dealers.
Who is this directed at?
You chose the wrong cruiser.
This is exactly what I was thinking before you wrote it. You are used to think in term of a coordinated team, and I think everybody should think like you, but the reality of this game is not anymore so team centric as it used to be. This game was initially designed to be played in team support, but other than premades or other lucky pugs, this does not quite happen anymore. Other than few premades, most people (from the few that pvp) are going in public queues, when we all know you never know what you get in. Usually as a pug you either face a premade and you loose in less than 5 minutes, either find yourself on your own with no support and face some other opponents that don't really play as a team. Other than obvious pve reasons, all this A2B thing started from people complaining that the cruiser endurance suffers and they get their shiny Odyssey trashed in few seconds.That hasn't happened because of cruiser fault, it happened (we all know it) because of bad choices (build, ship, etc) and bad team support. The tac excelsior was a feared opponent way before this Doff implementation took place, so yea, there were good cruisers before A2B.
Side note: I see so many beam scorts lately in Kerrat (heck I even saw a FAW bug beam boat, lol), with faw or without, with a2b or a2sif (+ doffs) and even with EPE3... I can't think I will ever see that in a premade. But for pugging they are efficient, even if their role as a big spike damage dealer is a joke.
The main idea I wanted to highlight is that apparently the game philosophy is changing into more self-survivability rather than a specific role each type of ship/player class should have. There are goods and bads on each side, and from your point of view, as a team tactician, this is definitely a bad approach which I one understand completely.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I for one find 1v3s interesting but now they aren't as fun because of a2b/faw whatever mix combination of junk causes beams to do absolutely ridiculous damage for nearly 360 arc weapons.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
R.I.P
A friend of mine tried it out, apparently it's nothing short of awesome. If you have 3 purple tech doffs the cooldowns just about line up with a few seconds downtime.
A2B is not the prob
My ENG use a Double A2B Chimera Heavy Destroyer Fleet version Vet Ship
Lt Cmdr Eng:EPw1,A2B1,Dem2
Ens Sci:HE1
Cmdr Tac:Tt1, Bo2,ApO1,RF3
Lt Eng:EPts1, A2B1
Lt Sci: Ph1, Po1
I do Pvp all the time
i do as good as most escorts players
the prob is the ship class was @#$% up
all ship have roles and make long story shot
escorts have gotten to big for their warp core
most escorts cheep and expendable and are not as OP as game has lead on
what the prob is hear is that your trying to fit to much on your escort
if escort players what a tougher ship get higher ship class
Cruisers need some love the right way......
We run this more than 2xA2B or 2xA2D on my teams. Our fights are short (15secs) so we don't need two of either skill. One to get the refresh and the other to give protection and speed if things go wonky.
Works very well on BoPs that wish to maintain high Aux power under stealth that gets flipped automatically to weapons and back again to Aux on an attack run.
I have been playing with the same on my Mogh and other than a overlap in lack of Aux when the AtD fires Im finding it works well.
Inuse only 2 Tchnicians, 1 AD doff though. I have noticed that after AtB fires that AtD is often not done with its ScDbefore the Aux regens so either a dlight pauee is needed or a manual firing is neeeded.
Curiuosly enough as the Aux returns the effectiveness of AtD climbs in relation if it is qctive.
R.I.P
I don't know when this started, but it is happening. Powers that use aux, in the past, were fixed at their intensity when you fired them, now they seem variable. It's not just power level either, it's also skill stats. For instance, if you fire a GW under the T5 Romulan Sci Buff (+100), it will be crazy strong until that buff wears off and then return to it's normal levels. If that had happened in the past the intensity of that Gravity Well would have remained the same until the GW went away.
edit: Not sure if it is intended or not either. Maybe this was a ninja-balance fix for some of the power creep we've been seeing.
is that photonic officer on an a2b build? hrm, you may have to detail that one a little bit more... where does it help out? im interested...
also....
sci ships > cruisers > escorts.
thats the way i see it, i think its been that way for a while.
have fun kill bad guys
edit: that being said....man do i love flying escorts the most. and yes, the bug ship can still outclass many. but i dropped it a while back for something with way more punch....if it is a little less agile/defensive.... the charal.
I do not know when but I am enjoying it.
R.I.P