...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
The torpedo system would need a complete overhaul to make them actually useful, but even then why take something you might run out of? If you do, it's like you have a wasted slot...or if you can switch weapons around while not in combat all one would need to do is carry multiple torp launchers to exploit the system.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
No. This idea has been thrown about several times, and the short answer has been "it would be too impractical for a ship to have a handful of torpedoes, only to expend them within one engagement". If you want finite torpedoes, play Star Trek Legacy and all problems will be solved! As stated before, this is a GAME, not a simulation!
Starfleet officers like to talk about having finite, non-replicable torpedoes, but there's a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. :rolleyes:
Actually, all this "evidence" shows is that they have a limited amount of torpedoes at any given time, but can replicate/build more of them between battles - IF the materials to make them and the antimatter (energy) to load them is available.
And a count of 34+85+handfull might be what Voyager would carry anyway.
The U.S.S. Enterprise (Galaxy Class) handbook [Sternbach/Okuda] gives the count of available torpedo cases on a Galaxy Class as 275.
But why can't they simply replicate them on the fly?
It is established that
A) replicating normally does not turn energy into matter (would need insane amounts, and quickly deplete the ships energy reserves, which btw. are Matter/Antimatter which is turned into energy ...) very complex structures are not easily replicated; Torpedes do not only have sophisticated sensor/guiding/targeting equipment and detonation mechanism, but also a warp sustaining matter/antimatter reaction drive ... are warp drives easily replicated? I think not ...
C) some materials are "unreplicable", i.e. can't be created or used in a replicator (see A.)
It's also been established that phaser power cells can be depleted. We could make energy weapons finite, too!
Hand weapons, yes.
Starship weapons are fed from the warp core/EPS.
The whole point of the Defiants layout is to minimise the distance between warp core and phaser (cannon) emitters, to reduce power loss on the energy transfer, and to simply be able to use bigger EPS conducts. But ...:
Large power cells were used to supply power to phaser arrays on starships. The crew of the USS Defiant made a ritual of displaying depleted power cells during the Dominion War. (DS9: "Behind the Lines")
That's a typical bull**** episode - some writers apparently didn't have the slightest technical understanding, and where unwilling to look into the existing written sources ... those portable power cells typically are used for applications that need kW of energy, or maybe 1 MW for limited time.
The Galaxy class' saucer beam arrays consist of 200 elements each using 5.1MW ... what takes the complete throughput to > 1TW. Most likely the Defiants cannons are capable of that as well ...
Conclusion:
Yes, the number of torpedoes a starship has available in a battle is limited.
On the other hand, the number is so high that this only matters during a prolonged campaign, where replenishment might be hard to come by.
Might be something that could be part of a special mission, but surely not standard battles.
I don't think it would be fun to run out of torpedoes in the midst of a battle - especially as they are rather harmless most of the time, so you must keep firing and firing to hopefully get in a lucky shot (on an unprotected hull).
I would like to suggest to make torpedoes stronger against shields/shielded ships, and switch transphasics to resistance-negating/-ignoring similar to disruptors.
There is no Q in Star Trek!... really wish he wheren't, but at least that annoying *** got punched in the face finally ... There is no healing magic in Star Trek!... most times, at least. There is no Trinity in Star Trek! ... so why do you insist?
No. This idea has been thrown about several times, and the short answer has been "it would be too impractical for a ship to have a handful of torpedoes, only to expend them within one engagement". If you want finite torpedoes, play Star Trek Legacy and all problems will be solved! As stated before, this is a GAME, not a simulation!
Okay - so what about meeting in the middle and have torpedoes replaced at a set rate (i.e. replicated), a bit like the omega plasma torp works.
Say a quantum launcher, say it starts with 60 torps and is replaced/replicated 1 per second if fired, after a delay of 30 seconds before the replacement starts. High yield and spread would use appropriately more obviously and if the DPS of torpedoes were upped by a bit by lowering firing cycle or upping the base damage, you could choose to run a brief and devastating barrage, or fire them for pressure damage. So if you expend them all quickly, you'll pay for it in the replacement/replication rate..
So there you have it - the best of both worlds - limited torpedoes, but no runs to starbases to restock!
Admiral Tuwud - High Commissioner, UFP Peace Corps Sigma Red
I think all torpedoes that don't have huge cool downs should work like the omega torp. With the ammo counter which regenerates at different rates depending on the weapon. Just my 2p.
Looking for a dedicated Star Trek community? Visit www.ufplanets.com for details.
That would be interesting but it probably wouldn't work in the game very well.
it wouldnt. imagine a player in a miranda running around with no more then 40 photons in the bank and uses them all up within 2 hours at most. the cost per white photon is 100 credits, so 4k but a new player doesnt have that kind of money floating around. so what happens at purple mk12 photons? 50k per photon? with a t5 ship loading upwards of 200 photons.
realistically you would be traveling back and forth collecting photons every other mission if your lucky. it would add potentially hours to a level progression let alone a useless weapon without torps and a hole being worn into that gold plated pocket.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Torpedoes are not finite, just like how a single shot from a beam array doesn't blow up ships at appropriate plot moments.
It wouldn't be fun.
Agreed. If u wanna make the torps finite for Canon or realism purposes, than I can find a couple dozen such other ''obstacles'' to take care of, as well (in the name of star trek canon etc)....... but in the end it would destroy the gameplay in Star trek online, UNLESS the game is redesigned from top to bottom, A to Z, which would, practically, mean that you are making Star Trek Online 2, IMO.
Yet batteries and regens and hypos are limited and have to be restocked. Does that mean the game is Not Fun? Maybe its actually about overall gameplay?
Those items are pretty much optional to use, at least in PvE.
There was another Ship mechanic at one time that was finite, crew. That mechanic sucked so hard that it didn't last very long. I'd anticipate finite torpedos to be about the same. An annoying mechanic with no other redeeming value to gameplay other than its annoyance. I'll pass, thanks.
I think all torpedoes that don't have huge cool downs should work like the omega torp. With the ammo counter which regenerates at different rates depending on the weapon. Just my 2p.
I'd actually like this kind of mechanic being applied to all torps, provided it doesn't go through the number of bugs the Omega torp did.
My only real issue with torps is their limited firing arc. I know it's done for gameplay balancing, but its annoying not really having the option to run torps on a cruiser because of a cruiser's slow turning circle. Even with the 180 degree torps, its very hard to use because you can only slot one of them.
Forget about torps, what about the magically reproducing crew? Send boarding parties out, shuttles dock, you blow ship up before they beam back, your crew start breeding like crazy and are back to full compliment in two minutes... Hmmm.
Forget about torps, what about the magically reproducing crew? Send boarding parties out, shuttles dock, you blow ship up before they beam back, your crew start breeding like crazy and are back to full compliment in two minutes... Hmmm.
Maybe ships are made up of hundreds to thousands of holographic crews? Explains how they die so easily from damage and it takes time to get all of those people back online! Not to mention could explain why 99% of your officers walk around in generic uniforms! They're just generic crewman programs!
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
They already have. Energy Weapons are far more efficient. You do not have to worry about a sliver of shields coming up rendering most of your damage moot.
There are quite a number of builds now that put zero points into Projectiles and skipping Torps and Mines entirely, while maxing out everything Energy Weapon related, incl. the high end Crit Skillbox for it. And leftover points put into stuff to make your ship even better.
I still like Torps, but I do recognize that the sun has set on them long ago.
I still find torps to be useful if you time them right. Whittling down a shield facing to about half, then hitting thy and firing, and timing beam overload to hit just as torps make contact is a fairly devastating strategy. It doesn't always work, but when it does its huge.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Making torpedo stockpiles finite would only work if you made the torpedoes far more powerful than they are right now. Specifically, eliminating the 'innate kinetic resistance' that shields have, which makes torpedoes almost useless against shielded targets (except for transphasic and plasma, I'd say).
Even then. . .it's enough of a pain in the hindquarters to resupply batteries and other consumables, without having to worry about restocking torpedoes every 2-3 missions. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't play a game that has such a feature. . .but that game can't be STO. STO is simply not set up in such a way to where that would be really feasible. You'd waste a lot of time just making supply runs. . .and this game has more than enough friggin time-sinks as it is.
Unfortunately, the game designers have an obligation to decide what's fun (to them), and include it in the game.
I think every single player has a list of things that they'd disagree with in that regard, but that's the nature of the beast.
In this case, I agree with the decisions made, as I don't think limiting the number of torpedoes we have would make the game any more fun for me.
The best irony is he is trying to change the game to what he thinks in fun which in turn is dictating to people who may not like having finite torps the very same thing.
They could introduce this with a crafting update. Think about it, if all starbases and some select starships could be a place players could craft torpedoes it could be good for the overall game economy. There isn't a crafting economy because S5 ruined crafting, giving us things that players need to be crafted to help put crafting on the right track.
People complaining about the idea of having limited torpedoes clearly never played many Star Trek games.
Majority of them had it, and it always worked.
Like i said before, Torpedoes are meant to be the most powerful weapons of a starship arsenal with devestating firepower, some even being powerful enough to destroy a small planet with the right type of warhead and yield.
Now obviously you can't have them be that with ships being capable of spitting out infinite amount of torpedoes.
To be honest i think the best solution would be to have torpedoes to be limited on a per-instance/mission basis.
I.E once your done with the instance or mission your automatically re-armed with a full complement of torpedoes.
Also following canon guidelines for torpedo quantities could also serve to give cruisers and engineers a much needed edge over escorts.
Setting aside the fluff, finite torpedo's would be a big balance nightmare.
If torpedo's are finite they have to be powerful. If they are not more powerful then a limitless weapon type then they will simply not be used.
If torpedo's are more powerful then other weapons and resources must be expended to obtain them then we have the very definition of pay to win. Those with limitless resources have limitless uses of the more powerful weapon.
If torpedo's are more powerful then other weapons but limited in their use on a per engagement level then there is no reason to not use them in every engagement. We already have a system like this. In the current system we must wait for the launcher to recharge, in a per engagement system we must wait to leave combat.
If torpedo's are more powerful then other weapons but limited in their use on a mission basis then many missions must be rebalanced.
I have no problem with torpedo's being a limited resource. I'm just not sure how we could implement such a system without diverting a very large of amount of production time to re-balancing or simply creating a p2w situation.
Torpedoes are not finite, just like how a single shot from a beam array doesn't blow up ships at appropriate plot moments.
It wouldn't be fun.
Infinite torpedoes are a game mechanic, nothing more.
I do support the idea of having variable ordnance loads for torpedoes; we see this in the series already. There would be different classes of launchers to accommodate race-specific technologies, and ordnance options accordingly.
Heck maybe even a crafting option for payloads and delivery systems.
I am not against the idea if we can stack 200-500 (torpedo bay) like the ships had on Star Trek. Probably 500 is minimum. If you fire a torpedo every couple of secs (2-3) that works out to 1500 secs which is 25 minutes (500). Assuming you can carry extra stacks in inventory it is not too bad.
It is also an EC sink which we need imo. That said, it is another burden on torpedo ships and makes energy weapons even more dominant.
How about we buff torpedoes first so that 10% shields doesn't give you 80-90% protection? That way, you could have a vape build that isn't just about BO and doffs.
I know ... choice in build, I am such an anarchist.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
If torpedos became finite on ones ship... can't you make them stronger without the cooldowns?
If your ship has a fixed number of torpedo's you can use before you restock at a starbase... cant we power up the torpedos and remove alot of the restrictions and cooldowns?
We saw in Undiscovered Country that we have torpedo stockpiles... and they had to take inventory to make sure all theirs were accounted for. So there must be something about them that can't be replicated..
I think you are reading more into torpedo supply then there most likely is in star trek lore, nobody ever stated that torpedo`s cant be replicated or how many were stored on board.
just because in the undiscovered country they had to take inventory does not say that they had not been replicated long before the incident to a set amount and would therefore need to be counted to check there were none missing and obviously the computer would have a record of if any had been replicated after the incident to cover up the fact that some were used and replaced.
therefore if we now assume they are replicated at a rate of say one torp for every two fired and they kept a stockpile of 10,000 torps there would be no worry about running out of torps until long after the battle had ended.
and of course in-between battles any shortfall in the maximum stored would be replicated so as to be ready for the next encounter so no need to return to a starbase to restock after a battle.
as we did see in certain episodes and movies torpedo's had to be loaded into the torpedo launcher, also as we see most notably in wrath of khan coffins/burial tubes were made torpedo shaped for burial in space and could also be shot from the same launcher, hence the cool down to give the crew time to reload the launcher.
in sto most launchers are mostly single shot before cool down but others may hold 3 or more torps though often less powerful for rapid fire before cooldown
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Great idea for a Star Trek SIMULATION, but not in this GAME and certainly not with torps, they are already near impossible to justify DPS wise and those changes would only cause their extinction in all but pretend role playing situations. Now a different solution would be to have a dedicated fore and aft slot for torps/Mines/super phasers or other special weapons that are on a separate cooldown.
Comments
system Lord Baal is dead
---
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
And a count of 34+85+handfull might be what Voyager would carry anyway.
The U.S.S. Enterprise (Galaxy Class) handbook [Sternbach/Okuda] gives the count of available torpedo cases on a Galaxy Class as 275.
But why can't they simply replicate them on the fly?
It is established that
A) replicating normally does not turn energy into matter (would need insane amounts, and quickly deplete the ships energy reserves, which btw. are Matter/Antimatter which is turned into energy ...)
C) some materials are "unreplicable", i.e. can't be created or used in a replicator (see A.)
Hand weapons, yes.
Starship weapons are fed from the warp core/EPS.
The whole point of the Defiants layout is to minimise the distance between warp core and phaser (cannon) emitters, to reduce power loss on the energy transfer, and to simply be able to use bigger EPS conducts.
But ...:
Large power cells were used to supply power to phaser arrays on starships. The crew of the USS Defiant made a ritual of displaying depleted power cells during the Dominion War. (DS9: "Behind the Lines")
That's a typical bull**** episode - some writers apparently didn't have the slightest technical understanding, and where unwilling to look into the existing written sources ... those portable power cells typically are used for applications that need kW of energy, or maybe 1 MW for limited time.
The Galaxy class' saucer beam arrays consist of 200 elements each using 5.1MW ... what takes the complete throughput to > 1TW. Most likely the Defiants cannons are capable of that as well ...
Conclusion:
Yes, the number of torpedoes a starship has available in a battle is limited.
On the other hand, the number is so high that this only matters during a prolonged campaign, where replenishment might be hard to come by.
Might be something that could be part of a special mission, but surely not standard battles.
I don't think it would be fun to run out of torpedoes in the midst of a battle - especially as they are rather harmless most of the time, so you must keep firing and firing to hopefully get in a lucky shot (on an unprotected hull).
I would like to suggest to make torpedoes stronger against shields/shielded ships, and switch transphasics to resistance-negating/-ignoring similar to disruptors.
There is no healing magic in Star Trek! ... most times, at least.
There is no Trinity in Star Trek! ... so why do you insist?
BC did finite torpedoes better than STL
system Lord Baal is dead
In all honesty, I TRIBBLE the game to grant me infinite torpedoes, but I digress...:rolleyes:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
Say a quantum launcher, say it starts with 60 torps and is replaced/replicated 1 per second if fired, after a delay of 30 seconds before the replacement starts. High yield and spread would use appropriately more obviously and if the DPS of torpedoes were upped by a bit by lowering firing cycle or upping the base damage, you could choose to run a brief and devastating barrage, or fire them for pressure damage. So if you expend them all quickly, you'll pay for it in the replacement/replication rate..
So there you have it - the best of both worlds - limited torpedoes, but no runs to starbases to restock!
Looking for a dedicated Star Trek community? Visit www.ufplanets.com for details.
it wouldnt. imagine a player in a miranda running around with no more then 40 photons in the bank and uses them all up within 2 hours at most. the cost per white photon is 100 credits, so 4k but a new player doesnt have that kind of money floating around. so what happens at purple mk12 photons? 50k per photon? with a t5 ship loading upwards of 200 photons.
realistically you would be traveling back and forth collecting photons every other mission if your lucky. it would add potentially hours to a level progression let alone a useless weapon without torps and a hole being worn into that gold plated pocket.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Agreed. If u wanna make the torps finite for Canon or realism purposes, than I can find a couple dozen such other ''obstacles'' to take care of, as well (in the name of star trek canon etc)....... but in the end it would destroy the gameplay in Star trek online, UNLESS the game is redesigned from top to bottom, A to Z, which would, practically, mean that you are making Star Trek Online 2, IMO.
Those items are pretty much optional to use, at least in PvE.
There was another Ship mechanic at one time that was finite, crew. That mechanic sucked so hard that it didn't last very long. I'd anticipate finite torpedos to be about the same. An annoying mechanic with no other redeeming value to gameplay other than its annoyance. I'll pass, thanks.
I'd actually like this kind of mechanic being applied to all torps, provided it doesn't go through the number of bugs the Omega torp did.
My only real issue with torps is their limited firing arc. I know it's done for gameplay balancing, but its annoying not really having the option to run torps on a cruiser because of a cruiser's slow turning circle. Even with the 180 degree torps, its very hard to use because you can only slot one of them.
Maybe ships are made up of hundreds to thousands of holographic crews? Explains how they die so easily from damage and it takes time to get all of those people back online! Not to mention could explain why 99% of your officers walk around in generic uniforms! They're just generic crewman programs!
I still find torps to be useful if you time them right. Whittling down a shield facing to about half, then hitting thy and firing, and timing beam overload to hit just as torps make contact is a fairly devastating strategy. It doesn't always work, but when it does its huge.
Honestly, makes sense to me... and it wouldn't be an unheard of mechanic in this game.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
I think every single player has a list of things that they'd disagree with in that regard, but that's the nature of the beast.
In this case, I agree with the decisions made, as I don't think limiting the number of torpedoes we have would make the game any more fun for me.
Even then. . .it's enough of a pain in the hindquarters to resupply batteries and other consumables, without having to worry about restocking torpedoes every 2-3 missions. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't play a game that has such a feature. . .but that game can't be STO. STO is simply not set up in such a way to where that would be really feasible. You'd waste a lot of time just making supply runs. . .and this game has more than enough friggin time-sinks as it is.
The best irony is he is trying to change the game to what he thinks in fun which in turn is dictating to people who may not like having finite torps the very same thing.
=/\=USS Lindsey Stirling =/\= NCC-116747 =/\=
=/\= Liberty Task Force =/\= Diplomatic Advisor =/\=
Majority of them had it, and it always worked.
Like i said before, Torpedoes are meant to be the most powerful weapons of a starship arsenal with devestating firepower, some even being powerful enough to destroy a small planet with the right type of warhead and yield.
Now obviously you can't have them be that with ships being capable of spitting out infinite amount of torpedoes.
To be honest i think the best solution would be to have torpedoes to be limited on a per-instance/mission basis.
I.E once your done with the instance or mission your automatically re-armed with a full complement of torpedoes.
Also following canon guidelines for torpedo quantities could also serve to give cruisers and engineers a much needed edge over escorts.
If torpedo's are finite they have to be powerful. If they are not more powerful then a limitless weapon type then they will simply not be used.
If torpedo's are more powerful then other weapons and resources must be expended to obtain them then we have the very definition of pay to win. Those with limitless resources have limitless uses of the more powerful weapon.
If torpedo's are more powerful then other weapons but limited in their use on a per engagement level then there is no reason to not use them in every engagement. We already have a system like this. In the current system we must wait for the launcher to recharge, in a per engagement system we must wait to leave combat.
If torpedo's are more powerful then other weapons but limited in their use on a mission basis then many missions must be rebalanced.
I have no problem with torpedo's being a limited resource. I'm just not sure how we could implement such a system without diverting a very large of amount of production time to re-balancing or simply creating a p2w situation.
Infinite torpedoes are a game mechanic, nothing more.
I do support the idea of having variable ordnance loads for torpedoes; we see this in the series already. There would be different classes of launchers to accommodate race-specific technologies, and ordnance options accordingly.
Heck maybe even a crafting option for payloads and delivery systems.
Suddenly torpedoes could get very interesting.
It is also an EC sink which we need imo. That said, it is another burden on torpedo ships and makes energy weapons even more dominant.
How about we buff torpedoes first so that 10% shields doesn't give you 80-90% protection? That way, you could have a vape build that isn't just about BO and doffs.
I know ... choice in build, I am such an anarchist.
- Judge Aaron Satie
I think you are reading more into torpedo supply then there most likely is in star trek lore, nobody ever stated that torpedo`s cant be replicated or how many were stored on board.
just because in the undiscovered country they had to take inventory does not say that they had not been replicated long before the incident to a set amount and would therefore need to be counted to check there were none missing and obviously the computer would have a record of if any had been replicated after the incident to cover up the fact that some were used and replaced.
therefore if we now assume they are replicated at a rate of say one torp for every two fired and they kept a stockpile of 10,000 torps there would be no worry about running out of torps until long after the battle had ended.
and of course in-between battles any shortfall in the maximum stored would be replicated so as to be ready for the next encounter so no need to return to a starbase to restock after a battle.
as we did see in certain episodes and movies torpedo's had to be loaded into the torpedo launcher, also as we see most notably in wrath of khan coffins/burial tubes were made torpedo shaped for burial in space and could also be shot from the same launcher, hence the cool down to give the crew time to reload the launcher.
in sto most launchers are mostly single shot before cool down but others may hold 3 or more torps though often less powerful for rapid fire before cooldown
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.