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Forums > Home› Feedback› PvP Gameplay

Speed Tanking is King? Why?

macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
edited December 2013 in PvP Gameplay
Seriously, I have a Defiant with covariant shields and decent speed (not maxed out because of low power) and I have cruisers, science ships and destroyers that have tons of shields but low speed. The Defiant comes out on top in terms of avoiding damage. And it is a huge difference too. On the defiant I have the 3-set bonus from Adapted Maco and with "field" in effect it is like night and day. The elite fleet resilient shields I have on my other toons can't compare.

It is even more pronounced now that bleed through damage is so outrageous. Seriously, why is speed tanking so great. Doesn't it make sense to cap the defense bonus to like 30% or something reasonable. Make it so only escorts can get anywhere near the cap but don't allow them to get 60 - 70 and beyond.

I am not whining here ... I just want to understand why cruisers and science vessels feel so gimped as compared to escorts. I mean cruisers have the big heals but science ... offensive-oriented science is seriously at a disadvantage.

Thoughts ... disagreement ... confusion ... ???
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Post edited by macronius on
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Comments

  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Escorts get a defense bonus... that is there perk.

    They don't get command auras... they don't get free sub system targeting and dmg bonuses that ramp up with target lock.

    They also get the lowest hull and shield numbers.

    Its pretty much balanced.

    There was an argument for awhile that cruisers where < but with the addition of the command auras that just isn't true anymore.

    Sci ships where never in a bad spot no matter what a few sci guys would like you to believe.

    The ship classes are not the issue with STO pvp.
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  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    If escorts didn't have all that speed tanking, they'd pop like ants under a magnifying glass on a sunny day.

    (maybe not that extreme, but you get what I mean)
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  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited December 2013
    I didn't say take it away. I said cap it or provide some serious diminishing returns. Escorts need to do damage not tanking. About the only danger I can think of is FAW but that is broken anyways and needs its own fix.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited December 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • pokersmith1pokersmith1 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Not at all. The only thing that comes anywhere near being 'problematic' when fighting escorts is attack pattern omega. Take that away, and you can fully control any escort. And there are half a dozen or so abilities at your disposal you can merrily use for control.
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  • talzerotwotalzerotwo Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I might be crazy, but when I have the option to EPTS or EPTE in my excelsior, I seem to live a lot more with the speed boost.
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  • genadagenada Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I would think since escorts do more damage then other ships they shouldn't have higher defense as well. Cruisers should have the highest defense, since that's what they are designed for in the first place. Escorts are suppose to be glass cannons they shouldn't be able to tank as well as a cruiser.
  • pokersmith1pokersmith1 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    LOL

    Scimitars can do the highest damage of any ship in the game right now. Yet they have no problem cloaking up with full shields, with RSP if needed. And you guys think escorts speed tanking is a problem, that's too cute.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    its a lot more then just defense score, mostly its impulse mod. oh, someones shooting me? well i'll just get out of arc, or be 10 range away in about 2 seconds. you have to not fly like your life depended on it not to ever break your DHC firing arc with your target though. burst and speed are your friend
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  • UnknownUnknown
    edited December 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    edit: Never mind...
  • mightyleptonmightylepton Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    pokersmith1 wrote: »
    LOL

    Scimitars can do the highest damage of any ship in the game right now. Yet they have no problem cloaking up with full shields, with RSP if needed. And you guys think escorts speed tanking is a problem, that's too cute.

    If you mean (AoE) DPS, you're probably right. Fortunately there is more in this game then just pure DPS (AoE)
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  • brangel13brangel13 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Can someone post a build from skillplanner, I would like to see how this setup is created. I'm curious since this is the hottest thing in Kar'rat, it's littered with speed tankers.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Escorts shouldn't have "defense" is the wrong way to look at it.

    Think of it as an evasion buff... and yes in any MMO you will ever play the nibble thief style high burst dmg class always has the highest Dodge numbers. No difference here.

    Juist like in any other traditional MMO if you catch or "trap" one of those burst classes for anything more then a few seconds they are toast. Same thing here.... If an evil escort is giving you issues... get a more evil science class to put them in there place. Once you use some sci magics to remove all that defense or most of it they are sitting there with 10-30% less hull and shielding base.
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  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    macronius wrote: »
    I didn't say take it away. I said cap it or provide some serious diminishing returns. Escorts need to do damage not tanking. About the only danger I can think of is FAW but that is broken anyways and needs its own fix.

    Escort bonus defense is capped, it's capped at 10%.

    You never get more than 10% defense just for being an Escort.

    The rest comes from speed, powers, gear - all of which is available to all ships.


    After watching the last 7 months of game mechanics developments, I can't imagine how it can be construed that Escorts or their defense bonus poses any kind of an issue.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited December 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    antoniosalieri wrote: »
    Escorts get a defense bonus... that is there perk.

    They don't get command auras... they don't get free sub system targeting and dmg bonuses that ramp up with target lock.

    They also get the lowest hull and shield numbers.

    Its pretty much balanced.

    There was an argument for awhile that cruisers where < but with the addition of the command auras that just isn't true anymore.

    Sci ships where never in a bad spot no matter what a few sci guys would like you to believe.

    The ship classes are not the issue with STO pvp.

    How long have you been playing? Escorts have never had the lowest hull, science does.
  • yreodredyreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Speed Tanking is King? Why?

    Because Cryptics devs are DS9 fans, love Escorts and favour a action oriented type of playing (and want us to do the same). Cruisers and other slow ships are deliberately made to be inferior so their beloved escorts can use 2x APO (and become virtually unkillable) zip around the slower ships and shoot at them like at their favourite series.

    Don't belive me? Ask Mr. Rivera.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    buccaneerdtb wrote: »
    How long have you been playing? Escorts have never had the lowest hull, science does.

    lol fair. Not sure thats completely true with the newest adds anymore... regardless 1.4 shield mods pretty much even that up. :)
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    edit: Never mind...
  • captainednacaptainedna Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Since this is about speed before epte change took few minutes to get on top of the map in arena .Now in 30 seconds everyone is on top.

    of course everyone has epte now so its like everyone agreed to get rid of a ensign engi station (2 escorts with epte is like 2 escorts without epte for example) .The only stupid thing is that when they changed epte they kept the maps the same size.Really annoying to get the red warning message not even a minute after you start the match.Not even talking about follow target camera which is designed for s1 t1 ships.
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Speed tanking? whatever... you aren't doing damage while you're zipping around and to get a kill you have to time everything, your buffs and the buffs of your target...so being able to speed tank and get a good clean kill takes skill.

    What I hate is how escorts are able to shield and hull tank. I know it's not as good as a cruiser or even a science ship (although science ships need to worry about their hull), but there's no reason I should be able to sit parked in an escort and take little to no damage.

    Also, don't get me started on EPtE.... +40 at ensign level? really? that's faster than my ship flies regardless of engine power...in fact..without an engine equipped I fly faster with EPtE1 and that's just ensign level...
  • brangel13brangel13 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    virusdancer wrote: »
    You don't pop a ship by taking out shields, you have to take out hull...with all the bleed in the game now - heh, they could have over 9000 for a shield mod - with those hulls, they're still going to pop.

    I guess that would explain why I'm getting popped even though my shields stay up. in Kar'rat that is. By the time I react to the alpha, my hull is down to 30%, then their friend finishes me off with next alpha strike. Those Elachi weapons are nasty....
  • pokersmith1pokersmith1 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    mightylepton wrote: »
    If you mean (AoE) DPS, you're probably right.

    Well, let me reply with another question. What ship in the game has 5 fore weapons and 5 tac consoles, can equip DHCs, can pull off a decloaking alpha, can have an operative captain and 5 superior operative boffs behind the helm? Ring any bell?
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  • dius1981dius1981 Member Posts: 500
    edited December 2013
    pokersmith1 wrote: »
    Well, let me reply with another question. What ship in the game has 5 fore weapons and 5 tac consoles, can equip DHCs, can pull off a decloaking alpha, can have an operative captain and 5 superior operative boffs behind the helm? Ring any bell?

    That sounds like a UBER ship... what is it?

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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    edit: Never mind...
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    virusdancer wrote: »
    It's not just the Elachi weapons. They actually proc lock (unless that's broken too). There's an EWO DOFF that causes attacks to ignore a portion of your shields.

    Energy Weapons Officer (Space): Chance for Beam Overload to cause your attacks to ignore a portion of shields for several seconds.

    http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=926711

    There's the ol' standard of DEM, but there's also the T2 Nukara passive of Enhanced Shield Penetration which increased bleed of energy weapons.

    There's actually quite a few things out there that ignore shields...heck, even the new Proton stuff, eh?

    yeah and what's funny is in PvE, shields melt so fast that those things aren't even useful, but for PvP...

    They keep putting out doffs and passives that are hurting PvP but do nothing in PvE.
  • timezargtimezarg Member Posts: 1,268
    edited December 2013
    antoniosalieri wrote: »
    Escorts get a defense bonus... that is there perk.

    They don't get command auras... they don't get free sub system targeting and dmg bonuses that ramp up with target lock.

    They also get the lowest hull and shield numbers.

    Its pretty much balanced.

    There was an argument for awhile that cruisers where < but with the addition of the command auras that just isn't true anymore.

    Sci ships where never in a bad spot no matter what a few sci guys would like you to believe.

    The ship classes are not the issue with STO pvp.

    Slight correction: Raiders (that is, REAL raiders) have the lowest hull and shield numbers. Which is why I've advocated that the BoPs also get a slight speed boost to .21 or something. Would help with speed-tanking and outrunning pursuit (since cloaking while the enemy can fire on you is usually a bad idea).
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    timezarg wrote: »
    Slight correction: Raiders (that is, REAL raiders) have the lowest hull and shield numbers. Which is why I've advocated that the BoPs also get a slight speed boost to .21 or something. Would help with speed-tanking and outrunning pursuit (since cloaking while the enemy can fire on you is usually a bad idea).

    That would be one way to go... 3 years ago the raiders where fine cause 21 turn was darn nice when no escort turned more then 16. Escorts got bumped turn rates and they have mulitplied the effect of RCS boosts... they have added doffs that allow for 50% omega up time... they have even added doffs to give darn close to 100% aux to damp uptime. I can make an escort these days turn 2x as good as the bop I flew 3 years ago.

    There really is no advantage to a raider anymore... I always found the entire idea of Cryptics raider class to be offensive anyway. In the trek universe the BOP was pretty much a MIG style aircraft. Many models all using a base of the same parts that allowed the klinks to roll out tons and tons of fairly inexpensive fighters... there was bops like the brel that where in fact small scout type crafts, the majority of the Klink BOP fleet however where patrol and even cruiser sized ships. IT annoys me to no end that every single bop has hull and shield numbers darn close to p2w shuttles. lol

    The bops should have gotten mulitple classes from the start... with 1 and perhaps 2
    "raider" classes like the brel... the K'Vort-class should have basicly been a full on escort with a dedicated tac commander and a lt cmd uni complete with proper hull and shield numbers. The raptor should have never existed the only time I remember a Raptor class ship in any trek was one episode of enterprise and if I remember right it was more of a scout ship.

    I think if they had the same mentality they have no when the game launched that is what would have happened... what would a ship with a couple uni slots and a battle cloak really be anyway... *cough* *cough* I guess it would be a romulan ship. :/ stupid crypitc tell me FAW is iconic trek after dropping the ball so hard on the entire Bird Of prey class plain Pi**es me off.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    antoniosalieri wrote: »
    That would be one way to go... 3 years ago the raiders where fine cause 21 turn was darn nice when no escort turned more then 16. Escorts got bumped turn rates and they have mulitplied the effect of RCS boosts... they have added doffs that allow for 50% omega up time... they have even added doffs to give darn close to 100% aux to damp uptime. I can make an escort these days turn 2x as good as the bop I flew 3 years ago.

    There really is no advantage to a raider anymore... I always found the entire idea of Cryptics raider class to be offensive anyway. In the trek universe the BOP was pretty much a MIG style aircraft. Many models all using a base of the same parts that allowed the klinks to roll out tons and tons of fairly inexpensive fighters... there was bops like the brel that where in fact small scout type crafts, the majority of the Klink BOP fleet however where patrol and even cruiser sized ships. IT annoys me to no end that every single bop has hull and shield numbers darn close to p2w shuttles. lol

    The bops should have gotten mulitple classes from the start... with 1 and perhaps 2
    "raider" classes like the brel... the K'Vort-class should have basicly been a full on escort with a dedicated tac commander and a lt cmd uni complete with proper hull and shield numbers. The raptor should have never existed the only time I remember a Raptor class ship in any trek was one episode of enterprise and if I remember right it was more of a scout ship.

    I think if they had the same mentality they have no when the game launched that is what would have happened... what would a ship with a couple uni slots and a battle cloak really be anyway... *cough* *cough* I guess it would be a romulan ship. :/ stupid crypitc tell me FAW is iconic trek after dropping the ball so hard on the entire Bird Of prey class plain Pi**es me off.


    ya the whole rader/rapter dynamic was always hamfisted and made no sense. when i think of a tiny bop, i dont think the most plug and play ship evAr! for that, i think large cruiser, they should be the universal ships, because size = disadvantage in this game, period. that would be an advantage for them that made sense.

    bop screams battleclaoking hyper tactical one tick pony counterparts to a more balanced and comfortable federation escort. cut rapters from the game completely, and nothing of value would be lost. in concept, they are federation escorts that have a cloak, but were balanced by the fact that there was only 1, the qin, and it sucked for a number of reasons making it a worse ship anyhow. then the federation got escort after escort with all sorts of station setups, wile the kdf didn't get anything till the fleet somraw, which is just a claoking patrol escort with less shields and hull. nothing. of value. would be lost.


    im not a kvort fan, in my opinion all the kvorts in tng were norgh, but they didn't have the budget for its own model.
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