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Fleet Progression, big vs little solution(s)
bluegeek
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I run a small fleet, so I am intimately familiar with the challenges on that end. As a Mod who's on the forums constantly, I am also well-informed about some of the issues that large fleets have.
The Two-Headed Monster
First thing, we need to recognize that Cryptic has created something of a monster here. They pretty much have to keep creating new holdings so that big fleets won't run out of things to do. The demand for fleet credits insures that.
In the process, though, small fleets simply can't keep up and practically anything they do to help small fleets is only going to aggravate the problems for large fleets.
The Discount Dilemma
Take the Mine discounts, for example. Big fleets can get those easier and faster than a small fleet. But what's the effect? I can't crunch the numbers but it seems to me that any discount for marks, dil, commodities, or any other resource requirements means this:
Fewer inputs likely mean fewer fleet credits are generated as a result. Faster projects may mean fewer people get the opportunity to contribute (because they're filling quicker), and also guarantees that the fleet will run out of things to do faster.
Can anyone who belongs to a large fleet comment on that? Am I on-target, or am I missing something there?
Supply and Demand
There's another side-effect of creating new holdings. In order to make them attractive to complete, Cryptic is providing the hook of fleet-level gear. More holdings means more gear, which means still more demand for fleet credits.
Three Community Trends
I do see three trends which the player community itself is adopting to try to deal with the issues.
The first trend is allowing players from large fleets to temporarily join a smaller fleet in order to contribute and gain fleet credits. This is basically seen as a win-win from the players' perspective. But it's a clunky solution, logistically. The would-be contributor has to leave their fleet, get an invite from the small fleet, then get reinvited back into their original fleet and repromoted back to their original fleet rank.
The second trend is the flip-side of the first -- small fleet players temporarily joining large fleets in order to spend their fleet credits in their stores. It has the same logistical problems that the first trend does and adds a few of its' own. The large fleet may charge an access fee because they still need to generate fleet provisions to accomodate this and because it potentially keeps one of their own regular members from getting those provisions.
The third trend is allowing players from small fleets to get invites to larger fleets' holdings in order to use their stores. Sometimes the large fleet charges an access fee, sometimes they do it freely. It does not allow the small fleet player to access everything and the small fleet still has to generate the provisions to support that activity -- which means they aren't putting as many resources into completing upgrade projects.
What Do We Do?
So what's the solution? Is there a solution?
I think we need to recognize that nobody really wants to go through the hassle of leaving one fleet to join another one, especially temporarily. We also need to recognize that there can be a natural synergy between a large fleet and a small one, but in general the small fleet is going to benefit from that association more than the large fleet does... which reduces the incentive for cooperation to those individuals who are frustrated over their inability to get fleet credits.
I think the Fleet system should move toward the idea of an association of Sponsorship, where large fleets are sponsoring smaller ones in exchange for some kind of benefit. What form that benefit should take is an open question, but the association should allow a certain amount of commerce to take place between the fleets without requiring a membership change. It should be a voluntary association, which either side can terminate at any time.
And it has to recognize that Cryptic has an interest in this and can't be giving everything away if it expects to make a profit, so the association can't be a way to game the system to bypass the need for every fleet to make its' own progress.
What Would Fleet Sponsorship Look Like?
There are many forms a fleet sponsorship could take but I think these points would be the hallmarks of a sponsorship system:
1. Nobody has to leave their fleet to participate.
2. The ability to grant, or limit, access to fleet resources to associate members according to fleet and fleet rank. Also, the ability to deny access to specific individuals who abuse the association without denying access to all.
3. Open communication between associated fleets. Possibly including the ability to see who's online and a 'Fleet Association' chat channel.
4. Some benefit to each of the fleets in the association, beyond simple contributions and access to vendors. This could take the form of a Fleet Credit bonus, or something else like a shared resource that's only accessible to an association.
5. A limit on how many fleets can be sponsored by a single fleet. This will prevent large fleets from simply creating as many spin-offs as they like to take advantage of the association benefits and keep everything "in-house".
6. The ability to create and dissolve sponsorship associations should be reasonably fluid for both sides.
The Two-Headed Monster
First thing, we need to recognize that Cryptic has created something of a monster here. They pretty much have to keep creating new holdings so that big fleets won't run out of things to do. The demand for fleet credits insures that.
In the process, though, small fleets simply can't keep up and practically anything they do to help small fleets is only going to aggravate the problems for large fleets.
The Discount Dilemma
Take the Mine discounts, for example. Big fleets can get those easier and faster than a small fleet. But what's the effect? I can't crunch the numbers but it seems to me that any discount for marks, dil, commodities, or any other resource requirements means this:
Fewer inputs likely mean fewer fleet credits are generated as a result. Faster projects may mean fewer people get the opportunity to contribute (because they're filling quicker), and also guarantees that the fleet will run out of things to do faster.
Can anyone who belongs to a large fleet comment on that? Am I on-target, or am I missing something there?
Supply and Demand
There's another side-effect of creating new holdings. In order to make them attractive to complete, Cryptic is providing the hook of fleet-level gear. More holdings means more gear, which means still more demand for fleet credits.
Three Community Trends
I do see three trends which the player community itself is adopting to try to deal with the issues.
The first trend is allowing players from large fleets to temporarily join a smaller fleet in order to contribute and gain fleet credits. This is basically seen as a win-win from the players' perspective. But it's a clunky solution, logistically. The would-be contributor has to leave their fleet, get an invite from the small fleet, then get reinvited back into their original fleet and repromoted back to their original fleet rank.
The second trend is the flip-side of the first -- small fleet players temporarily joining large fleets in order to spend their fleet credits in their stores. It has the same logistical problems that the first trend does and adds a few of its' own. The large fleet may charge an access fee because they still need to generate fleet provisions to accomodate this and because it potentially keeps one of their own regular members from getting those provisions.
The third trend is allowing players from small fleets to get invites to larger fleets' holdings in order to use their stores. Sometimes the large fleet charges an access fee, sometimes they do it freely. It does not allow the small fleet player to access everything and the small fleet still has to generate the provisions to support that activity -- which means they aren't putting as many resources into completing upgrade projects.
What Do We Do?
So what's the solution? Is there a solution?
I think we need to recognize that nobody really wants to go through the hassle of leaving one fleet to join another one, especially temporarily. We also need to recognize that there can be a natural synergy between a large fleet and a small one, but in general the small fleet is going to benefit from that association more than the large fleet does... which reduces the incentive for cooperation to those individuals who are frustrated over their inability to get fleet credits.
I think the Fleet system should move toward the idea of an association of Sponsorship, where large fleets are sponsoring smaller ones in exchange for some kind of benefit. What form that benefit should take is an open question, but the association should allow a certain amount of commerce to take place between the fleets without requiring a membership change. It should be a voluntary association, which either side can terminate at any time.
And it has to recognize that Cryptic has an interest in this and can't be giving everything away if it expects to make a profit, so the association can't be a way to game the system to bypass the need for every fleet to make its' own progress.
What Would Fleet Sponsorship Look Like?
There are many forms a fleet sponsorship could take but I think these points would be the hallmarks of a sponsorship system:
1. Nobody has to leave their fleet to participate.
2. The ability to grant, or limit, access to fleet resources to associate members according to fleet and fleet rank. Also, the ability to deny access to specific individuals who abuse the association without denying access to all.
3. Open communication between associated fleets. Possibly including the ability to see who's online and a 'Fleet Association' chat channel.
4. Some benefit to each of the fleets in the association, beyond simple contributions and access to vendors. This could take the form of a Fleet Credit bonus, or something else like a shared resource that's only accessible to an association.
5. A limit on how many fleets can be sponsored by a single fleet. This will prevent large fleets from simply creating as many spin-offs as they like to take advantage of the association benefits and keep everything "in-house".
6. The ability to create and dissolve sponsorship associations should be reasonably fluid for both sides.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
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In my last post, I floated the idea of a fleet sponsorship. But solving the dilemma might have an even easier solution.
Dual-Membership
With a dual-membership system, the player can have it all: Access to a large fleet's resources and to a small fleet's ability to generate fleet credits.
There are downsides, though.
First, if a small fleet essentially has access to a large fleet's facilities, they have little incentive to develop them on their own.
Second, without some kind of checks and balances there's nothing stopping large fleets from creating small "in-house" fleets for the express purpose of generating fleet credits. Large fleets win-win, small fleets, not so much.
Associate Membership
This would be dual-membership with a twist. Associate memberships would be designed to be temporary and, while active, would actually deny the player access to the facilities of their original fleet. Think of it as "detached duty" if that helps.
The advantage would be that the member would get normal access to the associate fleet and by simply dropping their associate membership (or getting kicked out) would be instantly reinstated into their original fleet with their original fleet rank.
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I'm part of a small group of people doing our best to kill off the business of selling holding access. I suspect our motivations for doing this vary, but the result is what matters. More and more people are partaking in the "third trend" you describe- asking for and receiving base invites with no strings attached. Shipyard access is rarer since it requires a fleet invite, but its day is coming.
If these sponsorships are easy to create, and easy to change, big fleets are going to sell them.
My alternative suggestion is to allow contributions via base invite. Put a console on every fleet base (no project to unlock it, it's just there), and any invited person can use this console to view the holdings of that fleet, their needs, and contribute to them. The fleet holdings window in a can. Rewards fleet credits just as if you'd donated to your fleet.
Granted- you'll still have the problem of individuals selling stuff. But this is quite a bit less predatory than what fleets are going to do with sponsorships, and there will be many people who will consider the credits to be sufficient reward for their contribution.
As an officer in a large fleet group, this would help us tremendously- it would totally eliminate the load placed on our officers when members wish to swap to other fleets to contribute and return.
As a secondary but related request, I'd really like to see the fleet base shipyard vendor modified to grant access with a base invite like the other fleet stores. That would help us tremendously, as well.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
Basically allow fleet officers to buy marks for credits? As a small fleet operator I see value in that.
Also on a different suggestion. Open a spot in core areas. (ESD/Qo'nos/Romulus command) And allow anyone to support a smaller fleet for credits. (IE T5 can't help a T5 but they could help T1-3 for example.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
At the end of the day I still think its better to have access to the gear (big fleet end result), than to have more access to fleet credit generation (small fleet end result)
Why?
Because if you really need credits and your fleet is capped out, you can always make a grinder fleet just for the sake of making some credits. Leave/fill/rejoin. Some of the members of our fleet have done that with the "romulan" branch fleet that was created but obviously never got used since there was no full third faction.
Just dont go dumping things the mother fleet needs into something else just for your own benefit, that tends to be frowned on. If you use up 500k dilithium on someone elses fleet the night of a tier 3-5 upgrade getting slotted in ours, chances are our dear leader aint gonna be too happy with you. Neither would I be.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Federation 12th Cavalry
Deep Space 19/USS Montana
I sort of like the idea of having a console on the fleet base to contribute to other fleet holdings. Here is the twist though. Put a console on each of the fleet holdings so that you can contribute to other fleet holdings to other fleets. When you access to that console, you can choose a fleet to contribute to from a list. In order to show up on the list, you would have to set settings to allow people outside of your fleet to contribute to your fleet. If you don?t set that setting, then you would not show up in the list. That setting would be by default set to off.
This would be used as a per character basis. Each time you log into the console, you can contribute to different fleets.
Instead of a console, you could create another button next to the fleet button by your mini map. The main thing is, is that you have to be part of a fleet in order to be able to contribute to other fleets. To me, it seems like a win-win situation.
And I don't believe even trying to change that is a good idea. It upsets the metagame and creates loopholes to be exploited. Any kind of "sponsorship" where the sponsoring fleet benefits in any way would likely result in the large fleets setting up their own satellite fleets to get that benefit.
They do that now.
The downside of the satellite fleet is the logistical problem of having separate rosters and managing the characters that float between them. But they do it.
The big issue is self-interest. There isn't any good reason for a big fleet to help a small one. They get no benefit aside from a place to dump fleet marks and pick up fleet credits, and even that affects individuals more than it affects the fleet itself. And the big fleet can stop the whole process simply by neglecting to reinvite members back.
So I say, perhaps give them a reason to want to help. Make it easier to help. It's a thought, anyway.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Another paradigm to think about is an association of small fleets.
The same mechanisms that would cause large fleets to create satellite fleets could also be applied to leverage the collective power of many smaller ones.
How to do that? Well, it's not an easy problem.
First, Cryptic would probably have to cap the total number of members in each association. Thus mega-fleets would benefit little or not at all. Otherwise, they're just going to create a series of satellite fleets and potentially abuse the system.
Second, a collection of individual fleets is still made up of individual fleets with their own logistics to consider. It doesn't help to have a dozen fleets pooling resources if those fleets can't agree on where those resources ought to go.
What could happen is a system where all of the associated fleets vote on opening a certain project to contributions from all of the members. So you'd be able to contribute to any of the open projects for your own fleet, plus one other 'elected' project that benefits another fleet. By democratic process, resources would be pooled and not spread too thin.
The downside is that a multi-fleet voting system like this would be complex and there might not be (probably isn't) a lot of incentive for Cryptic to create it unless the tech could be leveraged in other ways.
Does anybody have any brilliant ideas about how a Fleet Collective might work?
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Assuming that things like fleet associations and dual/associate memberships aren't feasible, what else could work?
Well, Cryptic really seems to like their "lotto" boxes, so what about a kind of lottery?
The basic idea is that players could contribute either marks or credits to a 'pot' on a daily basis. At the end of the day, the system would randomly select 'winners' to receive portions of the 'pot' and the players who got a portion could withdraw it as either marks or credits, with the proper conversion applied.
The big downside here is, you win some you lose some... and no guarantees. Some individuals would benefit, but probably most wouldn't. Lucky fleets could get a huge windfall, though.
This is really not my best idea, folks, but I'm throwing it out there.
Free Market
Basically, through some mechanism, allowing any individual to contribute to any project from any fleet that has been opened up for outside contributions.
Or, as suggested, to create some kind of a Fleet Exchange where players can trade resources needed to provision projects or to buy gear. (Marks for Credits, etc)
I think the exchange idea is too open to abuse, personally. And some would argue that Cryptic already has issues with Exchange systems without creating a new one.
Enabling players to freely choose to contribute to another fleet without actually joining it might be the secret sauce. And it could potentially benefit people who don't want to join a fleet in the first place.
What I'm not sure about is how that would disrupt Cryptic's fleet advancement model. Would it break it? Enable fleets of all sizes to complete projects too quickly?
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Future's idea in post 3 is another good one and might be easier to code.
My character Tsin'xing
1) The Alliance Window
All Large Fleets have to do is have a type of cooperation with a smaller fleet and they could trade donations, similar to the trade window. They donate as if they were donating to their own fleet's projects.
2) The Donation Drop-Off
Given that it's already happening, that some Large Fleets having mule fleets just to earn credits. So to prevent it being easier for them to "horde all da lewt". Perhaps a more fair approach is called for. Where players could literally donate their DOFFs, Fleet Marks, Dilithium, or Commodities to the STO system. Then the STO system unbiasly distributes those donations to smaller fleets.
The Large fleet players get their Fleet Credits, and Small Fleets can get their projects filled and move forward.
3) Scaling
The only other things that I could think of is if Cryptic modifies the system where Projects scale according to a fleet's size. While the numbers may look huge to a large fleet, if everyone donated, it wouldn't be so large. Like the Tier 3 2 Million Dilithum of the Fleet holdings, it's a mountain for small fleets, but for a large fleet of 150, thats about 2 day's worth of Dilithum to be donated.
4) Build it!
The last possibility is more of a game.......literally minecraft. We physically build our Starbase.
Second, the best kind of "collaboration" fleet is one with empty projects to dump marks into. What's the best way to get one? Start your own, fill up the project slots, then disband it and repeat as needed. Why set up partnership with a real fleet that needs real resources and time to build, when you could just make up fake fleets as dumping grounds, then toss 'em when they're full?
On the other hand, if fleet "alliances" were to give back some benefit based on the development of the other fleet (to give incentive to actually build up the other fleet), the ideal would become an alliance between two large fleets. Again, why bother helping a small fleet to build to gain some bonus if you could just team up with another large fleet thats already built and get the bonus right away.
And scaling project cost by member count would be an absolutely horrible idea. I can already imagine fleets where you would get an invite when you log in, then leave the fleet or get kicked when logging out to keep the official roster low. Or when filling a major upgrade project, all but one person would leave then get invited in one at a time to contribute, for maximum savings.
About the only thing I can think of that could actually work with real players without being exploited is some kind of "help wanted" board. A place where needy fleets could post a "link" to a specific project resource item and other players could then contribute to that. This should include an EC price per unit of the poster's choice (paid from fleet bank or the poster's own wallet), given in addition to the fleet credits generated, to serve both as a logical way to sort the offers and to make it worthwhile to contribute resources other than marks. What's important here is that it's global and always available, not subject to asking for fleet alliances or something that would make it easier to just set up your own fleets as dumping grounds.
when i started my fleet 2 years ago we also encountered these problems
Tier 1 - Tier 2 Projects would be filled so quick this was mainly due to the fact that at that time the projects needed only small amounts of commadites and Dil added to that the fleet was enthusiastic about leveling up the base and other holdings now that all sounds good but it was not long before fellow Fleet Members were complaining and rightly so that projects were already full before they got a chance to donate anything so we implemented a few systems to see if we could ensure members could donate and get there share of the fleet credits
System 1 - me and my co leaders decide we would adopt a squad system where we would say 3 squads each would assigned projects to fill say squad 1 miltrey 2 science etc then we would rotate after a month or so sadly that system lasted about a month before we realised it was not working so we abandoned it
System -2 we decide one of the co leaders would be in charge of the projects and would queue them when came on and when needed now for the First 2 Months this seemed to work and complaints about being unable to donate settled down unfortunatley in the 3 month things started to go wrong not enough projects were being queue at fast enough rate and no provisonal projects were being queued and of course the not being able to donate problem resurfaced
System - 3 on seeing that the second system was faulting we let let another co fleet leader take crack at it by that time we had the fleet mine and we were in the tier 3 - tier 4 stages the system we adopted was that we would concentrate on leveling up the mine for the discounts tom help out with the base and embassy by now as you can imagine the amount of commaddites and dil was getting considerbly higher so any discount would be a big help and we also made sure that there would be provisonal projects avalible everyday for members to donate and to date the projects have been filled regularly and there is always projects that need donation so there are no more complaints about being unable to donate now we come to the present Project has slowed in my fleet because of one problem dil we are now in the process of upgrading the base to tier 4 and doing the final tier 3 upgrade for the embassy unfortunaly the amount of dil need for all these upgrades is astronomical and at this time we have slowed to a crawl don't get me wrong the members doante what they can but also need it for there own use that being said your find the higher the amount of commadites needed the more chance you have to donate
as i said we have been around for 2 years and are just hitting tier 4 so these problems affect the older fleets as well as the new ones
thing is at the moment no small fleets will ever hit tier 5 because the amount of commodites needed is to great and with amount dil needed it nearly impossible to advance in a small fleet thats why i would say to anyone thinking of creating a fleet only do so if your in it for the long run other wise join a bigger advanced fleet
The only way I see a way to help small fleets is the project requirements being scaled to fleet member size. So a say sub 100 member fleet it's projects woud be 2/3 of what they are now, a 100-300 it would be a 1/3 and above 300 would remain the same.
Now to stop people creating a small fleet maxing it out then inviting loads of members the fleet member levels would be projects, standard I.e. no cost sub 100, 100-300 would require x amount and finally if they want to expand to a large fleet 300+ members project would be a shed load of x to complete.
On a side note would like to see the mars yard map used for small fleets, the base seems so empty otherwise.
Just thought also limit the special dill only cosmetic projects to certain member levels. If you want the best looking you need the biggest, just a thought.
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
In addition fleet projects should have some scaling costs to them so as to alleviate some problems with smaller fleets.
Have a 9 hour a day job, two kids and generally a life outside STO, give yourself 1 or if you are lucky 2 hours a day to play and see how far you get.
Realy do some people have nothing else in there lives apart from STO, feel sorry for them.
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
My fleet sold pets on the KDF side. We made a lot of EC for the limited time we sold, which we intended to pump back into the fleet. The we calculated the contributions to the fleet per user, and almost did a shareholder system.
So the Top 10 held most of the percentage contribution to the fleet, equating to roughly 80%.
So we made a system, when the fleet bank hit 500 million EC through sales, 80% went to the Top 10, split into the percentages of contribution. I can't remember the percentages at all, so this is an example
Out of 400mil pot
Person A: 30% = 120mil EC
Person B: 25% = 100mil EC
So on so forth, now EC paid back was regardless of fleet rank.
With the other 100mil, we got 1 (or maybe 2) lock box ships, and held a jackpot name in the hat style of event. Everybody, but those in the top 10, could enter.
Oh did I also mention there was a commission system for the sellers? 1 mil per sale.
Why am I telling you all this?
Because, I believe selling access, is fine. It provides a service (if now not need due to Public service channels ), to the community, and allows rewards to those who worked extremely hard on the starbase.
That's why, I believe selling access for EC is fine, and hate is uncalled for
I never had a problem with people asking EC for access, especially for Fleet ships. It takes a LOT of work, and a LONG time to get there, I do understand that. Heck, my own fleet is finally starting to near tier 5 in something at long last, so I get it completely.
I personally always had a problem with people asking for EC for access, purely to line their own pockets. If you put that money back into your fleet, that's great, and I'm glad for you. You did it to help your fleet, but there have been others who only cared about themselves.
As more fleets reached tier 5, the market started to get saturated as everyone lowered their prices, the new tier 5 fleets had a usually lower price, then the other ones would lower to match or beat them, etc.
But I DO agree with you. Simply hating on any fleet that sold or sells access is uncalled for. Really it is only called for at all if the fleet (or whoever in the fleet is doing it) is doing it only for the greed, and not to help out their fleet and such.
People want to feel like their fleet is home, and sometimes that means its a small group of friends.
There is no valid argument that people should have to pay more just because of that.
And the argument "just join a larger fleet" is also not addressing the issue.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
For the larger fleets getting the FC's is enough of an incentive to do it, and small fleets can turn off accepting so members can generate FC's again. Or for all fleets they can sponsor any fleet thats a lower tier than them making getting FC's less of a problem all around except T0 fleets.
As for Cryptic getting its share thats what the dilithium exchange gets them. If large fleets always had need for dilithium through sponsorship then thats more players buying zen for dilithium. If those players have no fleet projects to fill requiring it then they dont buy any.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek: