Jouret System [May contain Spoilers]

zebramaniii · October 2013

Now towards the end of "Sphere of Influence" there is the argument about what to do with the Iconian Gateway and the Romulan woman has a little rant and says that it belongs to the Romulans, that its in Romulan space and D'Tan will be unhappy and not so friendly if its destroyed.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but in TNG wasn't there a Federation colony in that system that the Borg attacked. Now if there is a Federation colony there, that to me would imply that it is Federation space and I doubt the Romulan Republic would be in any position to make claims to Federation systems unless the it was given to them. Also on the galaxy map, it appears to be in the blue, which should be Federation space.

amosov78 · October 2013

Yes, even in STO Starfleet has set up their Borg early warning system there too. The Romulan scientist protests too much, especially since we find out that her memories had been altered by the Solonae, which caused the disaster to happen in the first place. Y'know I'm likely to listen to the idle threats of someone who has probably been indoctrinated by our enemies.

alikain · October 2013

Yeah the bit don't make sense, since jouret system is part of federation space and that planet is where the Borg attack during the tutorials mission for the Feds.

johngazman · October 2013

zebramaniii wrote: »

Now towards the end of "Sphere of Influence" there is the argument about what to do with the Iconian Gateway and the Romulan woman has a little rant and says that it belongs to the Romulans, that its in Romulan space and D'Tan will be unhappy and not so friendly if its destroyed.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but in TNG wasn't there a Federation colony in that system that the Borg attacked. Now if there is a Federation colony there, that to me would imply that it is Federation space and I doubt the Romulan Republic would be in any position to make claims to Federation systems unless the it was given to them. Also on the galaxy map, it appears to be in the blue, which should be Federation space.

Someone has already brought this up. But yes, Jouret was a Fed colony world in TNG, and even in-game the Federation appears to have a presence there.

That said, D'Tan probably would be pretty pissed off if Shon decided to blow up an Iconian gateway, and the Federation clearly wants to stay on the Republic's good side.

alikain wrote: »

Yeah the bit don't make sense, since jouret system is part of federation space and that planet is where the Borg attack during the tutorials mission for the Feds.

I'm pretty sure the Borg are attacking the Vega IX Colony in the Fed Tutorial, not Jouret.

fallenhawk · October 2013

I be replaying it again but I think that where the Elachi fleet was and they enter Romulan Republic space.

hevach · October 2013

The Romulan claim may have been invalid, but it was still valid diplomatic hardball, seeing how far the Federation can be pushed on the matter and how accommodating they would be for the sake of the alliance. The Klingons may even have known the claim was empty, but it was still a point of leverage against the Federation, and their support made the matter a lot more serious.

Either way, apparently the Romulans and Klingons know everything the Federation does about REDACTED because they all agreed the point was moot as soon as they scanned past the gateway.

alikain · October 2013

johngazman wrote: »

Someone has already brought this up. But yes, Jouret was a Fed colony world in TNG, and even in-game the Federation appears to have a presence there.

That said, D'Tan probably would be pretty pissed off if Shon decided to blow up an Iconian gateway, and the Federation clearly wants to stay on the Republic's good side.

I'm pretty sure the Borg are attacking the Vega IX Colony in the Fed Tutorial, not Jouret.

I stand corrected, I was thinking about something else.

amosov78 · October 2013

hevach wrote: »

The Romulan claim may have been invalid, but it was still valid diplomatic hardball, seeing how far the Federation can be pushed on the matter and how accommodating they would be for the sake of the alliance. The Klingons may even have known the claim was empty, but it was still a point of leverage against the Federation, and their support made the matter a lot more serious.

Either way, apparently the Romulans and Klingons know everything the Federation does about REDACTED because they all agreed the point was moot as soon as they scanned past the gateway.

In essence yes, however the initial "threat" works both ways; D'Tan needs the Federations support for legitimacy more than the Federation needs an alliance with his republic, which he made a big point over getting both the Klingons and the Federation on side in the first place.

In addition to that, "Captain" Koren overstepped her authority and was in no position to support the Romulans in such a political matter of threats concerning the future of relations between governments; that was Worf's job as Klingon ambassador. He was for the destruction of the gateway, so why was there no protests from the Romulans, or Koren, over his views since he is much more likely to be speaking on behalf of the Klingon High Council?

talonxv · November 2013

Doesn't matter much since the whole argument went to hell in a handbasket since the Enterprise found Omgea particles. Which we all know the standing order about omega particles.

Kinda changed the whole diplomacy angle right there.

neoakiraii · November 2013

Because Cryptic hasn't updated the background map since the game started, and only added the Tau Dewa sector block over the existing map.

Also Koren is there representing the Klingons, Worf is there because he dealt with gateways before. If Koren says the Empire will side with the Romulans no matter what, she can recommend it to The High Council. The Federation did the same with Picard, he could recommend to the Federation about potential members of the Federation like the Angosians or the Kes

If they are not going to listen to her, then why send her at all.

zipagat · November 2013

neoakiraii wrote: »

Because Cryptic hasn't updated the background map since the game started, and only added the Tau Dewa sector block over the existing map.

Also Koren is there representing the Klingons, Worf is there because he dealt with gateways before. If Koren says the Empire will side with the Romulans no matter what, she can recommend it to The High Council. The Federation did the same with Picard, he could recommend to the Federation about potential members of the Federation like the Angosians or the Kes

If they are not going to listen to her, then why send her at all.

That and Captain Koren is the Captain of the KDF flagship , her weighing in on something will be the same as the captain of an Enterprise doing the same to Starfleet Command.

talonxv · November 2013

Again guys you are missing one HUGE plot change. Omega.

Changed the whole ballgame right there or did you not notice the second Enterprise reported that, all of them basically went "Oh TRIBBLE".

hevach · November 2013

Nobody's missing or ignoring it. That may have changed everybody's opinions, but it doesn't mean their original opinions aren't still open to judgement. That same dynamic - the Republic making a demand on one ally backed up by the other - could play out again, and we can't count on the Omega Directive kicking in every time they pull it (though to be fair, by Cryptic's storytelling method and just general MMO cross-faction PVE like this, we can probably expect something to happen and put everybody's argument on hold).

raventomoe · November 2013

talonxv wrote: »

Again guys you are missing one HUGE plot change. Omega.

Changed the whole ballgame right there or did you not notice the second Enterprise reported that, all of them basically went "Oh TRIBBLE".

That was probably as big an "Oh F---!" as the Starmap of the Iconian Gateway Network.

xiaoping88 · November 2013

Said it before and say it again: Cryptic retconned the system to be in Romulan space.
The Federation did not manage to reestablish the New Providence colony, and the listening post is set up by Task Force Omega it seems.
It may have been intended to be in Federation space at some point, but by now, it's retconned to be in Romulan Republic space.

Borders change. If the Romulan scientist would have been wrong about the system, Captain Shon would have made her aware of that for sure. He didn't, so we can safely conclude that the Jouret system is now within the Romulan border.

jeffel82 · November 2013

I'm not really seeing a conflict here. The in-game description says the recolonization effort failed in the 2380s. I have no trouble believing the Federation allowed the Romulan Republic to take over, as a show of good faith and a means of helping the Republic get on its feet.

I can also believe that D'Tan would allow Task Force Omega to use the system.

xiaoping88 · November 2013

jeffel82 wrote: »

I'm not really seeing a conflict here. The in-game description says the recolonization effort failed in the 2380s. I have no trouble believing the Federation allowed the Romulan Republic to take over, as a show of good faith and a means of helping the Republic get on its feet.

I can also believe that D'Tan would allow Task Force Omega to use the system.

My point exactly.
The retcon wasn't necessary, but it adds a nice touch to the first Borg attack on the system.
They may have searched for the gateway.

amosov78 · November 2013

zipagat wrote: »

That and Captain Koren is the Captain of the KDF flagship , her weighing in on something will be the same as the captain of an Enterprise doing the same to Starfleet Command.

And Worf was personally invited by proconsul D'Tan himself; if Worf's view was that the gateway should be destroyed, then D'Tan would have likely backed that decision. Why bother inviting him in the first place if all they're going to do is blatantly ignore his concerns. But again, only the objections from a Starfleet officer are contested here.

At this point in the mission we all know that Romulan scientist A'dranna has had her memories scanned by the Solonae, since it helped aid them to cause the disaster at the gateway, so why are we still listening to her advice? She could be trying to stop the gateway from being destroyed because the Solonae might have been able to either replace or indoctrinate her, and aiding them further by attempting to sow dissent between the republic and their KDF/Starfleet allies, yet not one person even mentions such a possibility. It's a blatant idiot ball scenario.

jeffel82 · November 2013

amosov78 wrote: »

And Worf was personally invited by proconsul D'Tan himself; if Worf's view was that the gateway should be destroyed, then D'Tan would have likely backed that decision. Why bother inviting him in the first place if all they're going to do is blatantly ignore his concerns. But again, only the objections from a Starfleet officer are contested here.

They were pretty clearly intent on activating the Gate no matter what. They called Worf in for a consult on safety precautions based on his past experiences, but I don't think they were remotely interested in whether he thought they should scrub the entire plan.

zev92 · November 2013

We actucally see it from rom point of finally and klingon point of view. There is nothing wrong with that and it just shows how the federation turns it back thier allies. But the omega partical changed it all.

seannewboy · November 2013

Just because there was a federation colony there during ds9, we dont know there is one there now, the federation probably lost some colonies in Hakeev's disaster as well. At that time the federation may have rescued them, took them somewhere not fudged up, and ceded the system to the Romulans.

amosov78 · November 2013

jeffel82 wrote: »

They were pretty clearly intent on activating the Gate no matter what. They called Worf in for a consult on safety precautions based on his past experiences, but I don't think they were remotely interested in whether he thought they should scrub the entire plan.

Yes that's the story that had to happen and it's ended here by the Omega molecule detection. It could've just happened in a vastly different way. The point of contention is the political viewpoint between the parties involved, that isn't going to go away in the long-term.

For example if the gateway were destroyed, and Worf, in his position as "safety consultant", told D'Tan that he agreed with the decision, then it is highly unlikely that D'Tan would jeopardize the alliance between the Republic and the Federation. Worf was ultimately in charge up until the Omega scenario arose, so if he sided with and told captain Shon to command the Enterprise to destroy the gateway, what would have happened next? Would D'Tan really, as A'dranna suggested, break-off both alliances since it would have been a Klingon ambassador and a member of Starfleet responsible?

The problem at the end is that Shon suggests destroying or disabling the gate and A'dranna immediately jumps down his throat and threatens him; Worf who has been against it from the start and sees Shon's actions as prudent, doesn't get threatened at all. In a political situation, which this had now become due to A'dranna's threat, this would fall to Worf to resolve and we know his views on this matter. Star Trek has shown us that in such situations ambassadors have powers to issue orders and special instructions to starship commanders, and Koren's objections could have been easily overruled.

The scenario at this point should have been between Worf and A'dranna to work out.

jeffel82 · November 2013

amosov78 wrote: »

Worf was ultimately in charge up until the Omega scenario arose, so if he sided with and told captain Shon to command the Enterprise to destroy the gateway, what would have happened next? Would D'Tan really, as A'dranna suggested, break-off both alliances since it would have been a Klingon ambassador and a member of Starfleet responsible?

The problem at the end is that Shon suggests destroying or disabling the gate and A'dranna immediately jumps down his throat and threatens him; Worf who has been against it from the start and sees Shon's actions as prudent, doesn't get threatened at all. In a political situation, which this had now become due to A'dranna's threat, this would fall to Worf to resolve and we know his views on this matter. Star Trek has shown us that in such situations ambassadors have powers to issue orders and special instructions to starship commanders, and Koren's objections could have been easily overruled.

I didn't get the impression that Worf was in charge of anything (at least not in a formal sense, I can understand an argument that we were taking his orders throughout the mission). He's a representative of the High Council, which is supportive of opening the gate, judging from Koren's attitude and Worf's willingness to support the opening of the gate despite his misgivings. Shon's in a similar position - he was against the gateway project from the start, but it appears that those above him in the chain of command wanted to see how it played out.

As for D'Tan...I don't know what to think of that guy. I'm not sure if it even matters whether he would actually break off the alliance with the Federation...all that matters is that he's in a position to make the threat. The gateway offers him tremendous political leverage, and helps cement the Republic's role as a major force in the quadrant, and I think it's kind of refreshing to see him take advantage of that fact.

amosov78 · November 2013

jeffel82 wrote: »

As for D'Tan...I don't know what to think of that guy. I'm not sure if it even matters whether he would actually break off the alliance with the Federation...all that matters is that he's in a position to make the threat. The gateway offers him tremendous political leverage, and helps cement the Republic's role as a major force in the quadrant, and I think it's kind of refreshing to see him take advantage of that fact.

D'Tan's problem here is that he's the leader of the reunificationist movement, and severing ties with the Federation would pretty much put an end to that dream of his, since Vulcans are core members. But then that goal seems like a dead end anyway.

xiaoping88 · November 2013

seannewboy wrote: »

Just because there was a federation colony there during ds9, we dont know there is one there now, the federation probably lost some colonies in Hakeev's disaster as well. At that time the federation may have rescued them, took them somewhere not fudged up, and ceded the system to the Romulans.

The colony was there during TNG, not DS9.
And we know very well that it IS gone. The system's description says so since Season 7.

sordnaxelas · November 2013

Greetings everyone,

if I may draw attention to the original point, the fact that Jouret IV had an UFP colony and that the STO map of the Tau Dewa block still puts the system in FEDERATION SPACE!

So from my point of view CRYPTIC has two choices:

Relocate the Jouret system (on the map) and explain the transfer of sovereignty.
Change the storyline and pick another system (maybe DEEP in Romulan space).

On that last note I find it extremely audacious for a middle power such as the ROMULAN REPUBLIC to dictate their terms on the great powers of the quadrant (i.e. UFP and the Klingon Empire). And even more shocking is the fact that those Greats just "fall in line", but that would a general topic for SEASON 8 as a whole :rolleyes:.

So what do yo think, have you got a third option for Cryptic ?

Jouret System [May contain Spoilers]

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