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lordlalo
Member Posts: 460 Arc User
I don't always read ESD chat, but when I do I find out some outlandish claims that I hope are just trolls (I know someone will meme this). :rolleyes:
PWE is making the rep system a micro-transaction-only ordeal with RMT <-- This is the claim by several players in ESD tonight. This was the first night in a long time I've seen nearly everyone so fierce about a change PWE intends to make beyond the standard trolling. I just want to say, if this is the plan, it is a very bad one.
For PWE: I have a $75.00/wk entertainment budget that I have dedicated between STO and a few other MMO's. As you can see from my transactions - PWE gets 80% of this in fluff (outfits, non-combat pets, things I can show my support in without participating in the pay to win scheme).
Here is the deal though, I have fun with the money I put into this game, and while I'm having fun, I will continue to play and ultimately, continue to pay. However, as I feel I'm sliding down this pay-to-win slope, the moment I cross that line of feeling as if I have to pay more than my budget to stay competitive in PVP, that will be the very moment I stop playing and stop paying.
I do not believe this mindset is a unique mindset either. I believe many of your players also hold this sentiment very dearly, especially those players who are also somewhat fiscally responsible adults. With that being said, it is safe to deduce that with every additional pay-to-win item added to the game play as a near necessity in PVP, creates a new tier of players that will stop playing the game. And this saddens me.
I can't imagine that people would find watching the Super Bowl very entertaining if they already knew which team would be the victor based on how much that team had to tip the refs. This seems to be the model that I see PWE marking up. Trolls you can say all day long, "you don't have to buy anything, you can earn the dil!" but the math won't lie and the math says it would take THIRTY years of refining 8K dil per day to get all the lobi ships, consoles, and ship weapons, and that doesn't count ground items. And as it stands, by the parses and datasheets, lobi gear has a definitive edge on elite fleet gear. Even though I don't have a lobi ship, from what I see on the wiki, the [vender] lobi star ships ALL have T5 fleet ship stats with abilities that T5 fleet ships lack.
Most MMO's are a method for a player to forget the day and unwind in a virtual world. Like me, it is a refuge from four adolescent children (who do sometimes play >_> ) and the bickering of bosses and customers. And the more you bring the constant reminder of "I want that ship, what's in my bank account" into a game, the more difficult you make it for these players to gain full entertainment value from the game. By making it more difficult to escape the realities of that day in a virtual environment you are defeating the purpose of the industry. And lets face it, psycholigists all agree that entertainment, whether it be a hobby, ball game, or computer game is nothing more than a method to occupy the mind from the day-to-day realities by the introduction of activities that pull the mind away from these trains of thought.
I imagine there are a lot of folks just like me -- I can't imagine there are the majority of folks out there that are born with silver spoons in their mouths and can fork over $200/wk while staying alive, housed, and maintaining an internet connection. With that being said, I'll leave PWE with a bit of advice: You are loosing touch with your customers -- you know, us little people that fund your company so you can make payroll thereby forcing your players to exhaust their budgets to feel competitive in a game will compel them to patron other games and/or MMOs. I'm beginning to feel this pinch so I know it is the reality and gravity of the situation and not some figment of a chicken little part of my and other people's imagination. The question is, what point is too much and at what point do the players realize that the PWE Customer relationship is a snake consuming itself?
PWE's reality check: When is the last time you asked a player if they thought the lobi prices were reasonable? When is the last time you asked a player if they thought the zen item prices were reasonable? I'm fairly certain this answer will be: "never" because I for one have never been asked, and of the 100+ people in my friends list or ESD chat in the past year that I have been playing all claim to have never been asked. It would be hard to fathom that if you took a large sample group of players to ask their opinions of the game, that not a single one would make it to my friends list or ESD chat in a year's time. Maybe I'm just not in this 1% category you seemingly seek or maybe you have truly lost touch with the majority of your customers. Or, just maybe, it could be that those who you do have left are mainly the trophy seekers who are lacking so much in real life, they would give you their last dime to believe for a moment they actually earned something. I truly hope this is not the case, as it would imply that PWE preys on the mentally ill and underprivileged.
/end Wall_of_Text
PWE is making the rep system a micro-transaction-only ordeal with RMT <-- This is the claim by several players in ESD tonight. This was the first night in a long time I've seen nearly everyone so fierce about a change PWE intends to make beyond the standard trolling. I just want to say, if this is the plan, it is a very bad one.
For PWE: I have a $75.00/wk entertainment budget that I have dedicated between STO and a few other MMO's. As you can see from my transactions - PWE gets 80% of this in fluff (outfits, non-combat pets, things I can show my support in without participating in the pay to win scheme).
Here is the deal though, I have fun with the money I put into this game, and while I'm having fun, I will continue to play and ultimately, continue to pay. However, as I feel I'm sliding down this pay-to-win slope, the moment I cross that line of feeling as if I have to pay more than my budget to stay competitive in PVP, that will be the very moment I stop playing and stop paying.
I do not believe this mindset is a unique mindset either. I believe many of your players also hold this sentiment very dearly, especially those players who are also somewhat fiscally responsible adults. With that being said, it is safe to deduce that with every additional pay-to-win item added to the game play as a near necessity in PVP, creates a new tier of players that will stop playing the game. And this saddens me.
I can't imagine that people would find watching the Super Bowl very entertaining if they already knew which team would be the victor based on how much that team had to tip the refs. This seems to be the model that I see PWE marking up. Trolls you can say all day long, "you don't have to buy anything, you can earn the dil!" but the math won't lie and the math says it would take THIRTY years of refining 8K dil per day to get all the lobi ships, consoles, and ship weapons, and that doesn't count ground items. And as it stands, by the parses and datasheets, lobi gear has a definitive edge on elite fleet gear. Even though I don't have a lobi ship, from what I see on the wiki, the [vender] lobi star ships ALL have T5 fleet ship stats with abilities that T5 fleet ships lack.
Most MMO's are a method for a player to forget the day and unwind in a virtual world. Like me, it is a refuge from four adolescent children (who do sometimes play >_> ) and the bickering of bosses and customers. And the more you bring the constant reminder of "I want that ship, what's in my bank account" into a game, the more difficult you make it for these players to gain full entertainment value from the game. By making it more difficult to escape the realities of that day in a virtual environment you are defeating the purpose of the industry. And lets face it, psycholigists all agree that entertainment, whether it be a hobby, ball game, or computer game is nothing more than a method to occupy the mind from the day-to-day realities by the introduction of activities that pull the mind away from these trains of thought.
I imagine there are a lot of folks just like me -- I can't imagine there are the majority of folks out there that are born with silver spoons in their mouths and can fork over $200/wk while staying alive, housed, and maintaining an internet connection. With that being said, I'll leave PWE with a bit of advice: You are loosing touch with your customers -- you know, us little people that fund your company so you can make payroll thereby forcing your players to exhaust their budgets to feel competitive in a game will compel them to patron other games and/or MMOs. I'm beginning to feel this pinch so I know it is the reality and gravity of the situation and not some figment of a chicken little part of my and other people's imagination. The question is, what point is too much and at what point do the players realize that the PWE Customer relationship is a snake consuming itself?
PWE's reality check: When is the last time you asked a player if they thought the lobi prices were reasonable? When is the last time you asked a player if they thought the zen item prices were reasonable? I'm fairly certain this answer will be: "never" because I for one have never been asked, and of the 100+ people in my friends list or ESD chat in the past year that I have been playing all claim to have never been asked. It would be hard to fathom that if you took a large sample group of players to ask their opinions of the game, that not a single one would make it to my friends list or ESD chat in a year's time. Maybe I'm just not in this 1% category you seemingly seek or maybe you have truly lost touch with the majority of your customers. Or, just maybe, it could be that those who you do have left are mainly the trophy seekers who are lacking so much in real life, they would give you their last dime to believe for a moment they actually earned something. I truly hope this is not the case, as it would imply that PWE preys on the mentally ill and underprivileged.
/end Wall_of_Text
Said NO to Arc. Gets punished by not being given a free outfit, free lobi, and free shuttle. Now forced to use Arc's site when trying to get to STO site. Still not rewards for beta testing the Arc website by force. Bravo Cryptic.
Post edited by lordlalo on
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I can get 4000 dilithium per day per character (6000 if I stay up a little later) with no effort at all - I need to walk between the exchange, my account bank (which I also bought with dilithium) and sometimes I need to run some DOFF assignments on my KDF characters to help with the supply end.
You have no right to complain about the C-store system, as the mere fact that you can get everything for free (if you are willing to spend the time) puts STO far beyond most MMOs on the market.
If you want a Lobi ship, they are for sale on the exchange for ~80M EC. This is a lot, but nowhere near as much as you are implying. The consoles are often even cheaper. Grinding EC from foundry farming missions takes 20 minutes per character and gets you several hundred thousand EC. If you play this using a level 20-39 character you could get a lot more still by selling your green and blue drops on the exchange.
The reputation grind is the antithesis of pay to win - there is no way whatsoever to speed it up beyond hard time caps, and it requires you to actually play the game in order to get high level reputation gear.
Basically, you think gear which gives an edge of a few percent, and which can be obtained for free, is pay to win. You are wasting money on useless gimmicks and gimping your characters.
You don't need every lobi store ship to be competitive in PVP. You can be competitive in PVP with the free RA ships if you build them right. Yes, the current FOTM is rather expensive to get, but you can get the required DOFFs from assignments easily enough.
Do some research, industrialize your farming, and reap the rewards.
It's not the plan. Stop listening to the tin-foil hat wearers on ESD.
@lordlalo - I don't dispute your maths about the cost of lockbox / lobi ships and gear, but you've taken the extreme argument of "having" to buy everything. Even for PVP, do you honestly need more than a few select items?
I could conceivably see them selling this token in the C-store as well. They haven't said anything about it, but I honestly kind of expect it to happen.
But reality check: Charging money to double the rep XP gain of a character who will later be able to double the gain of other characters for free is a very VERY far cry from the OP's zone chat hearsay.
Protip for the OP: There's a test server. You don't need to get on it, just read the patch notes and check the official feedback threads for rage.
Edit: I try to be nice about posts like this, but really, a minimum of critical thinking skills and some very simple due diligence is really called for before putting probably fifteen to twenty minutes of your day into this well thought out counterargument to something that isn't even a thing.
So another doom thread. Can't you guys stay in one doom thread? Sheesh.
And I'm not starting about gorn jokes.
First fact about ESD : everything said is BS.
Trust me, we have it nice here. And while what is said on ESD is WRONG - if you watched the live stream (or the recording of it, still on Twitch) you'd know what is planned for Season 8.
Even if they did bring more pay for options in to the game, as has been stated - you can still get it free via Dill.
In SW:TOR;
1) I cannot get normal bank slots free
2) I cannot get the option to "trade" with other players free
3) I cannot earn XP at a normal rate for free (yes, reduced XP / leveling until you spend money)
We do have it sweet here, so I hope you count your blessing !!
This. A thousand times, this.
Actually, it's a better idea to pretty much not listen to anyone in ESD. :rolleyes:
--Red Annorax
This, pretty much. Even compared with Perfect World's other MMOs, STO has one of the fairest F2P systems I've seen, within the natural bounds of a microtransaction-based business model. Individual prices are high, but in terms of players getting access to content as well as being able to have a satisfying experience without paying for anything, STO passes with flying colors. Everything else - the microtransactions, new ships, etc, is essentially gravy.
Hard to say the same for some of SWTOR's restrictions on free players (and it's hilarious how the subscriber-types like to crow that "It's what you deserve, poor people!"), but in fairness, the system is heavily geared towards trying to encourage subscribers, so if you take into account that the LAST thing BioWare wants you to do is try to play completely "free", then the costs and restrictions make sense.
Link: Tribble - Announcements and Release Notes
Brandon also keeps a forum list of season eight's blog updates.
Link: Season 8 News Dev Blog Index
Specific Link: Dyson Joint Command Reputation
The devs have said a few times STO is designed to be playable completely free, hence all the new seasons and expansions are free, this game lives and breaths zen and dilithium, this is how it makes money, that and lockboxes, it practically runs on power creep, which aside from the odd stupidly powerful and silly-ly designed console that should never have found itself in the game, is what pays for everyone to enjoy everything the game has to offer free of charge.
There are people who will tell you they own every item in the game thanks to grinding insane amounts of dilithium and turning it into zen and thereby whatever they want at that moment. So the next time someone tells you that the next step in the game's character development system is going to be P2P only, feel free to laugh at them.
That is appreciated. I know the player that started the argument in Zone Chat. He has been playing since the game started, and one of the first people to help me when I was a n00b. So, this is a player I respect, a player I know tests on tribble, and a player that is linked to cryptic. I know this player from over 10 years ago on other games, and I know who employs him. I'm not sure how I can better explain this without getting this person in trouble.
This person, a very trustworthy guy IMO was fiercely in this argument in zone chat (to be fair, it wasn't an argument, it was someone who said they had knowledge of PWE's plans to monetize the rep system which this friend confirmed in an unofficial manner) which is why I posted and which is why it was so shocking for me. Especially being that he tends to avoid nearly every chat channel in game and only use the Fleet's teamspeak server.
You obviously lack the intelligence to perform basic comprehension expected from that of a third grader.
So this is the ONLY ship you've been able to get since playing the game and it only took you 10 days? You said you don't have the Ody, Avenger, or Bortasqu, or ANY other c-Store ship (which would include fleet ships being they require the cstore ship modules 4x). So you're telling me you've only been playing this game for 10 days, and got the Scimitar for 2,500 zen?
Lets do the math here assuming you're using 3 characters (again assuming you haven't paid zen for the slot unlock). Off the bat, you're limited to 8K per day dil per character. That totals 24,000 dil per day you can refine which equals about 183 zen (assuming the current exchange rate of 131.
With 183 zen per day it would have taken you 14 days if you were refining your MAXIMUM dillithium on all three toons.
But lets use your number of only 4,000 dil per those 3 characters, shall we? That would have taken you 28 days (the most part of a month).
I'm not guessing you're telling little white lies, I know you out-right lied.
Do you know what the difference is between a conservative shopper and a compulsive shopper? Us conservative shoppers do the math BEFORE we buy something. You see, no matter how much Dil you earn, you are capped to 8K per day per toon. If you've never spent anything on your account, you are limited to 3 toons, limited bank space which makes inventory management harder for alt toons, and EC capped.
Now, try stepping out of your comfort zone and thinking about this from the account of a 0zen limited player and think about how long it would take to get where you are without spending a single zen. The MATH is astounding.
With these caps EACH toon would take TWO days to make enough Dil to buy ONE Master Key assuming you took 4-6 hours out of each day to farm dil. Now do the math, add up how many lobi ships there are, and that on average, they cost between 90 and 200MIL ec (how much is the bug ship running these days?).
Actually, you're wrong. You see that blue tag next to my name? That means I've paid for ACCESS to this game, and I do not play it for free. As I said, your a troll, sure everything but the Chimera and steam ship can be "freely" obtained. But on a normal schedule of 1-2 hours per night of game-play, YOU WOULD BE DEAD BEFORE YOU COULD OBTAIN A FRACTION OF IT.
Actually, if you took a key and opened a lock box to try and "earn" your lobi to get the lobi ship, it would cost over $200.00 in keys. I was not exaggerating on that front. The decent ships on the exchange are unobtainable for under 100Mil. Tell me what is the lowest price of a bug ship? Last I knew this was still the most desired PVP ship. But a rule of thumb, if you see a reward pack on the exchange with a minimum price of 100Mil EC, it is either one of two things: A highly sought after PVP item or a brand new item that no one else has yet.
It's supposed to be. But if you believe for a moment that PWE will not attempt at some point to profit from it, your not only a very naive person, but you've obviously not played many other games.
It is, because you can pay to win INSTANTLY and not have to earn it. Any time you take the element of risk vs reward out of a system and allow any contestant/contender to shortcut that risk and time investment into the game, it IS the very definition of pay-to-win. Again, take the analogy of the Super Bowl, both STO and the Foot Ball are games. In each game, there is an authority that controls the rules, there are systems in place to ensure the rules are followed, and all contestants/contenders play on a "field" while the field here is virtual. If you're watching the Super Bowl and a player whips out $100.00 to push the ball up 10 yards, now how fun would this be to watch? How fun would it be to play? Fact is, this removes a lot of the fun, and the Super Bowl wouldn't have an audience as it would become just as fun as watching something as drab as "Shark Tank".
The best items in this game should only be obtainable without RMT. The best ships, the best consoles, the best weapons, the best gear should all have a risk vs reward requirement and not a shortcut option available if you have a high enough bank account balance or credit card limit. Granted, all of these items should be much harder to obtain such as, the Obi should be obtainable by playing it on a super-elite mode after completing a chain of missions on elite mode, but the "best" ship itself with its console should have to be earned and not skirted with the wallet.
They could very easily introduce a system to the game which allows you to skirt these requirements with your wallet for a lesser version of the ship. I don't believe anyone would complain about this at all because this turns this game into a system of "may the best player win" which is a basic principal of every competitive game on this planet.
But lets entertain your argument for a moment shall we? Assuming 0 zen spent on an account, a player wanting top PVP specs in a bug ship would pay:
**The Crescent weapons vary by 1-3 mil each day, so I'm basing these numbers 2 mil below exchange rate today. I will be assuming ec calculations for this demonstration being that the conversion of dil to zen to buy the keys for lobi is a lotto system and could vary greatly.
~200M ec: Bug Ship (honestly I didn't check that price, going on the price I paid a few weeks ago for a fleet mate)** UNOBTAINABLE WITHOUT EC UNLOCK
~16M ec: Elachi Crescent Dual Heavy Cannons accX3 x3 (48M ec)
~21M ec: Elachi Crescent Turrets accX3 x2 (42M EC)
~120M ec: Elachi Console/Weapon set (120M EC) ** UNOBTAINABLE WITHOUT EC UNLOCK
~22M ec: Power syphon console
I didn't include any fleet items that also require provisions which require dil on both sides to buy it and to make the provisions.
Lets total the EC required for a SINGLE lobi geared PVP ship: 432,000,000 ec is how much you would pay for a single ship and its gear.
Now, lets try and use math to calculate how much time it would take for a new VA to make that much in EC. Lets first of all calculate the Dil: The max is 8K per day, so that's easy. That converts into ~60 zen, which is half a key per day. The cost of a key is ~1.7M ec, so half would be 850,000.
Now you have farming. It seems so far, that you can't make more than about 800K in gear per few hours before the game just stops dropping gear. So lets run with that very easy number: 800K.
So, this adds up to 850,000+800,000 = 1,650,000. Now lets divide that by 432M and we get 261 DAYS. This is about 10 months of CONSTANT farming every single day. Now, tell me, how long does it take for most players to burn out on a constant grind with no content for that grinding? I'm willing to bet my unrefined dil that its a LOT less than 90 days much less most of the year.
Now notice not a single piece of gear (shields, warp core, engines, deflector) was not mentioned? That would be another 200-300K dilithium right there which would be an additional month of refining dilithium and that doesn't include the EC or Marks required to push the rep to T5.
You do realize you are proposing that a system of large swaths of a player's year to be consumed by grinding a game that has less than 24 hours of playable content, yes?
When the math is laid out in such a way I have done, one can't help to think how you can defend such a system without being a victim of it - ie, being that guy that sinks his entire paycheck into the game rather than being more responsible in real life. Lets face the facts, most responsible people who aren't paid to play this game don't play it on a daily basis for 2-6 hours at the time. Most play times (as a survey conducted by IGN) only consist of 4-6 hours per WEEK. Now, taking this bit of data into account, this one ship would take an average player nearly SIX YEARS to obtain without putting a dime into the game. Obtaining this ship on THREE characters would take... Well you get the point, I'm sure.
Agreed, then why are they so high? You said it yourself, no one needs every lobi ship, so why are they even there?
I have 337,000 (+/- 8K) unrefined dil on my main, and some 70,000 on my alts. I've perfected the industrialized farming to the point of somewhat keeping the game in a fun state. But there is a key word there, UNREFINED.
I'm not so sure they're posting all their plans there. There are plans I've seen in dev blogs that were never posted on the forums or even in the tribble areas until after or right before it went into the game. Some of the more outlandish claims I've heard turned out to be true such as 9 months ago, "Season 8 will have T-Rex's with lasers". I LOLed until I saw the concept art.
I'm not going to fight this claim at all. I tend to agree. But that doesn't mean it will remain that way and when you look at PWE's track-record with other games, it becomes a real concern.
I'm sure no one would ever "need" the entire lobi collection. But this is a game, nothing is "needed", its all a desire, and many people would desire many of the lobi ships. For PVP however, to get a lobi ship on all three characters if you only have three, would take an unrealistic time-frame to obtain without using the pay-to-win system.
Did you read any of the other replies here or the entire OP or did you just blindly start ranting? Devs have been saying this since the game was made, the argument wasn't that rep could ONLY be earned by Zen, the argument or spat in zone chat was about the new rep system of allowing players to short-cut the rep system with zen (the RMT micro-transaction system).
Sure you can take thirty years to refine the dillithium required to deck out a three or four PVP ships, or you can drop $500.00 to get the stuff today. Who in their right mind would go grey refining the dil to get these PVP ships? The problem is, with the rest of the RMT system in this game, the time requirements are unrealistic. While it may offer relief to the wallet to obtain a simple item, it is just that, it offers relief while the game is still HEAVILY RMT and pay-to-win based.
First and foremost, the Zen consoles and all the flashies and gizmos you can get off Zen store, Lobi Store, or any other location DO VERY LITTLE TO INCREASE YOUR PVP COMBAT SKILL. These consoles are balanced by the fact that you have a limited number of consoles slots on a ship. Putting in a Universal console takes away from the specific boost you could from having a system specific console in that slot. Engineering, you lose potential tanking, Science you lose potential shield tanking and exotic damage, and Tactical you lose potential damage. Only a few Universal consoles provide stats boost, and if they do, they do NOT grant an ability.
Thus, if you fill your ship to the brim with P2W consoles and set bonuses, and everything else, the result is a very trolly ship that is very much TRIBBLE. Put this in the hands of an noob captain, who has never PvPed in STO, and you have a recipe for a comedy sketch.
Much more important to an effective build is the correct use of Boff powers (which are free) or having the correct PASSIVE STAT BONUS GEAR ON (Tactical, Science, and Engineering Consoles). 80-90% of the errors I see in PvP have been in these areas. Correcting these... for free, shows a better improvement in PvP performance rather than throwing money at the problem.
And this is just for PvP. in PvE, the P2W consoles and ships are needed even less. I know of several True F2P players who maxed out their freely earned and ground out Fleet ships and can wipe the floor in any STF or PVE queue you can get them in. Again, Knowledge and skill is much more important than wallet.
About the only thing that could be considered "required" purchases for this game are the inventory and bank expansion slots. And these are low enough fruit that you can grind out the dilithium->zen for those in a month. Or you can cave in and pay $5 for some inventory slots... And you can buy them ala cart, as needed.
In addition to this, "HOW DARE CYRPTIC AND PWE ATTEMPT TO EARN MONEY!!!?!?! WHY WOULD THEY DO SUCH A THING!?!?!" Because living ain't free. They need food and housing and internet just as much as we do. Therefore, Zen store, and lockboxes, which have proven to be an effective means of income for them. As mentioned many times before, STO's F2P model is one of the fairest on the market as you can get from one end of the galaxy to the other without spending a dime. Full use of all content without buying expansion packs. And if you need more bank slots, more boffs, or a more powerful ship, you have the ability to, AND YOU CAN CHOOSE DO THAT WITHOUT SPENDING A DIME!
Another point I want to nitpick is the lack of "polls on the prices". Any business owner worth his salt would be able to tell if they need to adjust their pricing based solely on the number of sales they have. There is no need to hand out questionnaires, just check your receipts. Think of it, when was the last time McDonald's asked you if you thought the price of a Big Mac is "fair"?
I will also like to take a moment to refer the OP back to an older thread of mine Where I remind people how to win at STO.
But, in conclusion, all the Pay-2-win stuff you claim unbalances the game are really just cheese and flashy stuff. The things that are sold are gimmicks that makes the game more fun, but not necessarily easier if you dont already know how to play. In addition, the "required" Zen store items have no bearing in combat and are easily attainable for true F2P players.
Problem identified. Please remedy.
I can't agree with this when nearly every PVP guide marks many of these consoles such as the power syphon console and Elochi console/weapon set as "necessary". While I don't agree that it will increase a player's skill, it serves the same purpose as giving a team/player 10 yards after the 3rd down. If the other team is that bad, no matter how many yard you give them, they will fail if they can't get a touchdown, but if you have two comparable teams, in STO's case, the wallet matters.
So, then I assume after you read my long post on the math, you concur that it is perfectly reasonable to require a player to sink 30 years of his/her life into playing 4-6 hours per day to obtain and deck out 3-4 pvp ships? And you also concur that this is somehow fair that someone with $400-600 to blow can get these items "INSTANTLY"? Suffice to say, I can't agree with this.
Again, you must not have read, or did you totally miss the "Career Officer" forum tag that requires the purchasing of a lifetime subscription?
So you're saying that someone that's never put a dime into this game, can indeed contend with a player in pvp of comparable skill in under 3 month's time? The math (read up 2 posts) indicates this to be a lie.
And now your argument is that it is perfectly ok to curtail all this time investment with one, single RMT transaction?
Your "math" is unfortunately based on all sorts of ridiculous assumptions, obviously chosen to make your "point."
Here's one: you've completely ignored the fact that the fastest way to make EC in this game is to play the Exchange.
Here's another: your assumptions of how much dilithium a player can make in a given amount of time really only applies to the rankest dullards.
Stop the empty rhetoric, point out the assumptions. And how, exactly, does one go about choosing assumptions in math (lol) to point out time investments support the "point" of adding RMT to shortcut reputation being as a bad idea? I'm struggling trying to understand how you could possibly make such a ridiculous statement.
And you ignored a fact -- it takes EC to make EC to play the exchange. And even then its as much a lotto system as lockboxes. Point invalidated.
Again, rhetoric, every character is limited to 8K per day unless you have a lifetime sub or a fleet with T5 Dil mine. In which case for each your cap is raised by 500 dil per day. You are assuming that everyone uses the other two character slot purely for farming and will never have any intentions of ever competing with those toons.
Invalidated.
Do you intend to provide substance as counter arguments or do you intend to continue to attempt to circularize the argument by attempting to use rhetoric and half-truths as a method to unsubstantiate logic and math? Its a very simple request: POINT OUT WHERE THE MATH IS FLAWED.
Maybe if you actually read...
No, I didn't. Unless you're making the assumption that our hypothetical grinder will never have EC, this is irrelevant
The fact that you don't understand that the Exchange is NOT a lottery goes a long way to explaining why you fail.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Again, showing how limited your thinking is. Life is not one dimensional.
More like - again, you fail to comprehend.
Since you're unable to understand how the game actually works in reality, as opposed to your theoretical model of mediocrity, I fail to see why anyone should pay your arguments any heed.
Now the "fact" was based purely on the method of which you are suggesting to use your money to "risk" in the exchange for a chance to make more money. You have to have that money first, assuming you don't loose it. I know too many players who have done just that.
To say someone is stupid (which is what you're implying) because they buy something cheaply and attempt to resell it at a higher price and then find that the item was worthless is not a fair assessment. Nor is it fair to discount those who stocked up on items to sell on the exchange to have cryptic come out with a new lockbox that trivialized the items they invested in.
Suggesting that the exchange trade is a guaranteed method of making money is one of the most ridiculous assumptions I've ever heard. Talk about someone who lacks knowledge of the game >_>
I think that means rhetoric.
Anigo Montoya you are not, he obviously knew what rhetoric was.
I'm laughing now. Obviously your train of thought is not that of a player who's trying to avoid the pay-to-win scheme but one trying to defend their position to pay-to-win. These two mindsets are like oil and water. As I believe it was you that brought up SWTOR difference, you seem to be in that mindset that you should be able to buy your life's achievements -- and when you run out of that money to buy them, you then believe that all the financially endowed folks should have to give their money to you so you can keep spending. Yes, that's an assumption attempting to be equally as snide.
I'm in the middle and don't mind paying my fair share, but I don't want to feel like I used my wallet to win over a player who may not be so fortunate. I've paid my dues with a lifetime sub out of pure appreciation of the game -- not many people can say this. I also buy as much fluff as I can when it comes out (uniforms, lobi outfits, etc) just to do my duty in making sure the game stays afloat, while desperately attempting to avoid pay-to-win items -- yes, I did get the fleet Armatage, but I paid for it in Dil. Which took about six months in dumping dil in the fleet, MACO XII gear and to get the unlocks for the account (doff unlocks, ec unlocks, account bank unlocks, etc). Which brings up an interesting point that the only non-ship unlocks that apply across all your characters is the account bank and ec cap. So you have to go out and get all the unlocks again per character you attempt to farm with.
But, here is why I'm laughing at you: All the points made, using the 8K cap as an example and you used the very term I used to try and counter it: "life". Allow me to explain why this is hilarious. The 8K dil cap was a limitation used to show the "character" limitation while I used an IGN poll to show the actual "LIFE" limitation (you know, those hours you have available per day to actually play). Using the highest realistic number (8K per character), I ran my demonstration.
It is unrealistic to expect anyone to grind dilithium 12-24 hours PER DAY unless you are suggesting the use of afk bots over MULTIPLE accounts which are violations of the ELUA and could render you unable to EVER play STO again. It is also against the EULA to use multiple accounts for use of storage, additional characters for a single person, etc. Furthermore, it is against the EULA to allow people to login to your account (to say, farm for you). It is also against the EULA to buy items outside of the C-Store. Sure, different members of your household can have an account, but the EULA states that you are licensed for ONE ACCOUNT.
You keep risking your EC in the exchange and risking your account access on the assumption Cryptic/PWE won't ban you for EULA violations -- I'll keep playing it safe and using the power of deduction and reason to deduce that "responsible" people also play it safe in my calculations, mkay?
Yet it remains curious that you're still replying.
Actually, attempting to play the market without knowing what things are worth is pretty much the definition of stupid.
It's not an assumption, there are numerous players in the game who reliably make millions off of the exchange. Join a trading channel and see. Unless you believe that they're permanently lucky and winning the "lottery" every time.
ROFLCOPTERS!
Let's ask Mr. Google.
Yeah. Unless you're schizophrenic and were actually intending to compliment me on my persuasive arguments...
It's Inigo Montoya.
At yourself? I would, considering you started this whole thing based on what you overheard on ESD.
I have more than enough resources to get what I need without having to pay cash for any of it. And no, I didn't exploit anything either. But go on, continue laboring under your false limitations.
Pointing out how your positions are utterly wrong is a public service.
a) That Elachi accx3 weapons are the best.
Elachi turrets are terrible, as they lock out your other Elachi weapons when they proc, for a comparatively small bleedthrough. Others would be cheaper. Not to mention you can save a huge amount using Polaron or Tetryon instead, and still be very competitive for a fraction of the cost. Even accx3 is arguably no longer the best. Accx2 is usually better, with critd or crith.
b) That the Elachi set is the best.
This is an arguable thing. Many of the best PvP setups have few universal consoles - and the Elachi set is a bad idea, since the console, torp and heavy cannon do not synergise. You save money there.
c) That rate of earning dilithium is constant at that level.
As events (e.g. Crystalline event) occur, and via contraband farming, dilithium can be leveraged to increase earnings. In fact, gaining dil through STFs can be much faster - one can be blown through in less than 10 minutes. That's a bare minimum of 960 dil - with a significant likelihood of getting more.
d) That rate of earning EC is constant at that level.
EC as earned, can be leveraged to earn more - and there are reliable ways of doing so, such as holonovel code farming, and grinding Kerrat, which is almost guaranteed to drop something more valuable (think 5mil) every hour or so.
Also, what you postulate is an absolute worst-case scenario. There is a fairly high probability of extraneous events speeding things up, e.g. the current lobi replay.
In essence, it is not accurate to assume that things will remain constant in that way, and the idea of the 'best' PvP equipment is very subjective. In fact, your selections are simply the most expensive options - there are other, cheaper ways to set up ships with what is the 'best' equipment to another player.
Once I am actually in front of my home computer, I would not mind coming up with an alternative overview of the math, if you are interested.
So you can use Google, yet you can't seem to figure out what a "phrase" is, like when I said, "EMPTY RHETORIC" (which literally means, a well-written baseless and/or misleading statement)? Or must I repeat the "empty" part over and over again like a broken record like in some Jedi mind-control trick? Obviously, you missed at some point the art of inference.
Interesting. So you are saying your fact is hearsay? I recall several people not liking the fact I even made a post made on the hearsay of ESD.
Ahh yes, there you are also included among them. So, now the support of your argument is, I'm in the wrong chat channel? (still LOLing)
I find it a bit curious that you seem to have a double standard of vilifying someone for being concerned over ESD chat, and then turn around and refer them to "educate" themselves in trading chat. Maybe its a little easier to see why I spat my coke all over the monitor while reading your argument.
And you have still miserably and utterly failed to explain how so you have done this. And until otherwise you do so, your statements remain "EMPTY RHETORIC" (edit: just for clarification).
So what you're saying is, no one else should pay attention but you and feel compelled to interject your baseless arguments against the math of the game as a "public service"? Is your last name IRL Stalin by chance? I guess this is ok if you're a self-centered sociopath.
Thanks for replying Scurry. As you may have seen from the sheet, I included the Elochi console as well. From the wiki it would seem that the proc limit is removed with the passive ability "Haywire" (see screenshot, this console is not on ANY of the wiki's yet, the proc, however, is).
Right, but one thing (well 2) is consistent: 1) the rate at which you can refine dil, and 2) the amount of time required to earn that dilithium while the once per 3 month events are not active. I'll admit, I got the 50K dil on every toon. That was a saving grace, but had I been 5 days late, that event would have done nothing unless I by chance was around for the next one.
Didn't the devs say kerrat drops were not intended and may be nerfed (like tour of the universe)?
I understand some things are subjective, but I tried to ensure that every bit of the math was calculated from a player's account that had no intention of participating in the pay-to-win scheme (minimal unlocks, etc). As far as the best gear and ships are concerned, the fact we can have discussions and debate it makes the system broken IMO. While you may not agree that Elachi weapons are better than Elite Fleet weapons, I do use ATC for parsing, and consistently parse about 4-8% lower than a friend using my exact skill and boff loadout (I got him into STO). The only difference between the two characters is I have the 700 day vet buff going (which should have zero impact) and he has the bug ship and the full Elachi Mk XII accx3 set (with weapons and console). Using Elite Fleet Disruptors, the fleet Armatage, this shouldn't happen when both of us are sitting still, side-by-side and begin firing on a mob at the same time without using any abilities (just for clarity, our weapons and aux power were set to 125 and 75 for the side-by-side parse).
I do have screenshots of the graph if my friend would be willing to OK me posting them here. Else I can send them to you in private. To be honest, this parse over 4 hours made me furious. Oddly enough, he was furious as well (he had already bought 5 of the fleet weapons and feels he wasted is FC).
This would be appreciated. Having someone realistically explain how the math is off for a player who wishes not to involve themselves in pay-to-win or risky behavior, would be a relief.
Bug has 5 tac consoles +9% for the Elachi 2 piece and it's easier to keep the cannons on target.
What was your hit/miss compared to his..?
What were your crit %'es..?
Does he only parse higher than you when using the Elachi weapons..?
I don't think I was paying any attention to the hit-miss ratio to be honest because the acc values of both ships should have been the same with exact gear (Maco MK XII). As for the crits, the percentages were on a variance of +/- ~1.2. At times his crits seemed to go up by 1-1.2% and at times mine would go up. This seemed to be rather anomalous data though.
Yes he parses about 2% lower if we both use standard Mk XII phasers dmgx3. I think the 2% is attributed to him not having a couple accolades I have being as he should be parsing 4-6% higher with the additional console (this is the parse difference between my Armatage and steem ship which has the extra tac console).
The one thing I DID notice is his proc rate was a LOT higher (mine averages about 4%, his averaged 6.2%). This could be attributed to a broken mechanic.
The question remains if this is anomalous data, why would a lobi ship be better than a Fleet T5 ship?