My goal is to put them in a place that's as defensive as possible for full mk XII geared players, while still allowing players in Mk X gear to have a chance of beating them. The performance delta between a fully decked-out endgame character and a fresh 50 is quite large.
And here is your bigger problem cryptic, your hole game is based only on grinding with out mercy for MK XII stuff, but the missions are set for MK X white gear. So, why we should grind the MK XII gear?
Maybe this is an indication that more events need a Normal and Elite mode, and that those modes need a bit more distance between them as far a minimum gear/skill go in order to complete them.
"Elite" in STO poses no challenge at all to a growing number of players.
My goal is to put them in a place that's as defensive as possible for full mk XII geared players, while still allowing players in Mk X gear to have a chance of beating them. The performance delta between a fully decked-out endgame character and a fresh 50 is quite large.
I really have to disagree with this. There's already a good deal of content that a fresh 50 can play in order to gear themselves up. They have all of the older reps to go through with all of the missions attached to those. Gearing up really isn't that big of a deal now anyway between the rep system and fleet gear. Exchange prices have dropped because of those systems, so it's not like MK XII gear is exceedingly difficult to obtain.
If this is meant to be an expansion on endgame content, then it needs to be balanced to endgame players. Not fresh max levels who already have content available to get them geared up.
I am really excited to see the Voth being introduced into the STO universe. Season 8 Dev Blog #5 references a "design language," or a set of characteristics that would be expected to show up on a Voth ship. The ships being introduced in Season 8 are really impressive, and the Bastion-Class Cruiser in particular is one of the most attractive ships I have seen in game. However, there are two major elements of the Bastion-Class Cruiser that seem, at least to me, to be inconsistent with what would be expected of the large Voth vessels, namely the Citadel-class Dreadnaught and the Bulwark-class Battleship.
First is the design of the bridge. The original Voth City Ship, now the Voth Citadel-class Dreadnaught, has a pronounced command tower. The command tower structures generally adhere to a convention of using shapes to convey a sense of power, relying on powerful structures that are pyramidal and ziggurat-like in presentation. This helps to channel the Voth essence of authority, with the tower looking over the entirety of the vessel, highlighting the hierarchical nature of the Voth. This form of command tower design language is also represented in the Bulwark-class Battleship. However, this powerful command tower form is missing from the cruiser, making it feel more demure and unimposing by comparison. On first glance, it is hard to discern the location of the bridge on the cruiser, with it either being represented by the two arches that cross over the small trench at the rear of the ship, or possibly by the smaller raised portion embedded at the far end of the trench. In either case, this really downplays the power of the bridge, and seems to defy the convention both set by the ships as shown in Voyager, as well as the design of the other ships.
Second is the design of the nose, or bow, of the ship. The design convention here seems to use the shape of a "beak" so that they are more reminiscent of the dinosaur-like appearance of the Voth themselves. This being said, the cruiser seems to lack this key element from the design language shared by Voth ships. As opposed to having a "beak" like the other Voth ships, it has more of a pronged design. This design seems more at home on a Jem'Hadar vessel. I have a feeling that if the cruiser were a playable ship, and a player were to put the fairly popular Jem'Hadar space set on it, that by the time it were color-shifted purple, the cruiser would look more like a Dominion ship than a Voth one.
I really respect the work of the design team, and think it has produced some really great ships. I am personally attached to the Voth, and by extension their ships, as they were one of my favorite races in Voyager, and as such, I care a lot about how they are represented in STO. Additionally, I really like the Bastion-class cruiser and think that it is just two elements short of being an amazing Voth ship instead of just a great ship. I want to thank the design team for all their hard work, and the time they put into listening to players about what we would like to see in the game.
I know there is poetic license used often in this game. But I agree with what you say Arc!
And get those ships moving!
They are just either sitting there or lumbering around at quarter impulse.
The first and foremost sin in combat is to sit still. You die, end of problem.
Would have to agree, Voth ships in the adventure zone, are too easy. As long as you keep moving, and go around the hardened shields to the more vulnerable sides, they are all a snap to deal with. Maybe the hardened shield facings try to track the fire of a single ship, or cover as much as three of four shield facings, to be more tricky with players, or something. Not so much with the feedback shield pulse, as they hit hard enough to make any sensible player back off for a tic, anyway, but the Voth ships being too slow, makes the shield facing iota, too easy to work around.
Course I know if you make em too hard to fight, peeps will complain like cows out here do on some nights, here in Montana. Can't please everyone, so please us more challenge wanting players first! (Or not. )
Wonder if hardened shields could 'angle' their shield facings, for a possible risk of player weapons, hitting back at them, or 'other' players, (or other Voth,) to be a bit more tricky. Or maybe Pattern Delta could be tweaked, since I wasn't having much problem, healing through it, as I fired weapons at the Voth.
Course they are still fun to fight, if you have two groups at yah, on both sides, of on an angle from each other, on yah. There just is 'something' missing with fighting them. And no Borg Cigar lance like crud, since that's to much cheese for even Kraft to make a pasta side with. Sheesh.
To be honest, I don't even see a reason to move around when the Voth use the hardened shield facing. I've noticed that both myself and others will just sit there and keep shooting at it until it drops. Because when it does, bye bye Voth ship. They don't hit hard enough to be a threat to us, so just chilling in one place and waiting out the few seconds it takes for the shield to expire is no big deal.
I started out trying to move around the shield facings, but once I figured that out, I don't even bother anymore. Chill out and have a drink or something until the shield drops and then blow it to the heavens. Easy.
I did not mean to imply that the Voth were done being tuned, I just wanted to communicate my general goals in tuning them. I've gone through and parsed all of their DPS output, and with some changes that are still-to-come, they do nearly identical DPS to non-STF Borg (which themselves are substantially higher than most other critter groups, putting out say double the DPS of a Tholian Frigate with a Borg or Voth Frigate.)
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I did not mean to imply that the Voth were done being tuned, I just wanted to communicate my general goals in tuning them. I've gone through and parsed all of their DPS output, and with some changes that are still-to-come, they do nearly identical DPS to non-STF Borg (which themselves are substantially higher than most other critter groups, putting out say double the DPS of a Tholian Frigate with a Borg or Voth Frigate.)
Will there be any Voth ships with D'Deridex Defender levels of competence, so to speak? They were awesome and quite a challenge one on one.
I did not mean to imply that the Voth were done being tuned, I just wanted to communicate my general goals in tuning them. I've gone through and parsed all of their DPS output, and with some changes that are still-to-come, they do nearly identical DPS to non-STF Borg (which themselves are substantially higher than most other critter groups, putting out say double the DPS of a Tholian Frigate with a Borg or Voth Frigate.)
The problem here is power creep, while the borg in S5 were well tuned, they are chumps now. So you are putting in content that is a push over and unchallenging. I realize its a tough thing to balance something for fresh 50s and more experienced but the gap is.. crazy.
I did not mean to imply that the Voth were done being tuned, I just wanted to communicate my general goals in tuning them. I've gone through and parsed all of their DPS output, and with some changes that are still-to-come, they do nearly identical DPS to non-STF Borg (which themselves are substantially higher than most other critter groups, putting out say double the DPS of a Tholian Frigate with a Borg or Voth Frigate.)
First, thank you for sharing your thought process on this. I do appreciate that.
That said, I have to say that I still respectfully disagree with you. Non-STF Borg might still be a decent enemy for a fresh 50 in greens, but for the rest of us they're a total non-threat. I think that if you want to balance them to be more like the Borg, aim for at least ESTF Borg. Those are still mostly tame, but I do see people blowing up to them every once in a while.
Now I understand that you guys wanted the Voth to feel more defensive than offensive, so maybe there's something else here. As I posted on the last page, I can just sit there and slug it out with them until their defenses fail and then blow them to the stars. Thinking about it now, I would say that it's possible that our defenses outweigh the Voth's defenses. Although their uber shield facing is impressive, I just have to wait for it to drop. So right now I can not only out muscle them, I can out defend them.
So maybe instead of just cranking up their damage, maybe crank up their defenses? Or...hmm. Just thought of something.
What about something that nukes our hull resists? Like a beefed up disruptor proc? As the Voth are defensive specialists, they might know how to neutralize defenses better than others. Right now the Voth's weapons have a proc that lowers our crit rates or something right? What about adding a second beefed up disruptor like proc to their weapons? Rather than pure muscle, they could lower attack and defense? That would certainly get me to stop sitting still and blasting at them. Would make me move around a whole lot more.
Hmm, that's not bad. I kind of like that idea rather then just cranking up the DPS actually. It fits with the Voth defensive theme better. Lowering our defenses to make their weapons more powerful. I like it.
Anyway! I still maintain that fresh level 50s shouldn't be able to be effective against the Voth at all. As I mentioned earlier, they already have content balanced toward them that they can complete to get themselves geared up. Let's make those Voth some nasty buggers.
First, thank you for sharing your thought process on this. I do appreciate that.
What about something that nukes our hull resists? Like a beefed up disruptor proc? As the Voth are defensive specialists, they might know how to neutralize defenses better than others. Right now the Voth's weapons have a proc that lowers our crit rates or something right? What about adding a second beefed up disruptor like proc to their weapons? Rather than pure muscle, they could lower attack and defense? That would certainly get me to stop sitting still and blasting at them. Would make me move around a whole lot more.
Hmm, that's not bad. I kind of like that idea rather then just cranking up the DPS actually. It fits with the Voth defensive theme better. Lowering our defenses to make their weapons more powerful. I like it.
Anyway! I still maintain that fresh level 50s shouldn't be able to be effective against the Voth at all. As I mentioned earlier, they already have content balanced toward them that they can complete to get themselves geared up. Let's make those Voth some nasty buggers.
I think it would be a good place to have something akin to the resistances fleet shields have. Give players a chance to see them inaction before they save up/ work towards them.
Groups of Voth seem quite easy to take on, and I'm by no means a great player. Personally, at least in the adventure zone, they should possibly be balanced around groups of players (though, this may need rebalancing if/when the adventure zone quietens after a few months or so).
I think it would be a good place to have something akin to the resistances fleet shields have. Give players a chance to see them inaction before they save up/ work towards them.
Groups of Voth seem quite easy to take on, and I'm by no means a great player. Personally, at least in the adventure zone, they should possibly be balanced around groups of players (though, this may need rebalancing if/when the adventure zone quietens after a few months or so).
Possibly.
The only reason that I went more for being able to breach our defenses over making them even more tanky is that the end result would just make them large damage sinks that take forever to kill without being any real threat. Unless they have some teeth, defenses don't mean too much since we'll out muscle them in the end. It doesn't matter how many resists and invincible shield facings they toss up right now, I'm going to be breaking through sooner or later. They don't have the teeth to stop me right now.
But since the Voth are more defensive in theme, it does kind of break that theme to make them hit really hard. So I'm actually going to change my previous stance about cranking up their DPS. Instead, give them more ways to breach our defenses other than through raw firepower. Ways to lower our hull resists, increase our shield bleed through percentages, and lowering our damage output. That would make them more of a threat than just some toothless damage sinks.
That said, I'm not against your idea of giving them elite fleet shield resists. I just think that more needs to be done to them than that.
I'm also not asking for the Voth to be geared toward the uber high end players who can clear ESTFs in 2 minutes using highly specialized A2B builds. Rather, gear them more toward the average end game player. Those who have possibly a mix of rep and fleet gear with maybe some MK. XI/XII stuff off the exchange.
It seems like such a waste to me to have the game gear us up all this time only to have yet another piece of content made to be easily accessible by fresh 50s. That's the one stance I'm going to dig in on. :P
(Hmm, that got a bit longer than I thought. >.>; )
The buff to the elite Voth ships was a definite improvement. In normal-difficulty Storming the Spire I'd just sit there spamming AOE killing all the NPC mobs in range. The buff to the elite-difficulty Voth ships properly woke me up and set my zipping about trying to deal with the Voth battleship to stop it killing the transports.
Also it may be my imagination, but the Voth in contested space seem to be hitting harder now. I can still free a tower by myself, but I can't do it lazily anymore. Unless it was just them getting lucky :P. Wonder if the +20 power to aux improved their sci powers enough to be noticeable. Even thinking about investing in that Dyson regen shield now.
As for the Voth Dreadnought, fought it in Storming the Spire Elite (STSE?) and the tac team made it a real focus threat on the lines of the tac cube, which is good. Previously you could one man it, now it needs a concerted effort from a portion of your team.
Thumbs up from me.
(Don't know if I mentioned it, but great work on making them feel different to the generic NPC mobs )
Personally I find they're dangerous enough. Just tried taking a spire solo (nobody else was around) with a Gal-X with old anti-borg Mk12 weapons and an Omega12 3-piece. Tac captain, FAW1, APB1, and EPTW1, and basically I just got science spammed, shield-stripped pretty quickly (20 seconds or so), and sploded. Plus for some reason my EPTS just refused to activate (not subnuced off, which is annoying enough, but refusing to turn on in the first place). Maybe if you're running around with adaptive shields and programmed keybinds its a different story, but I think for normal people they'll be plenty challenging.
Played around a bit more with some Voth ships today after the changes.
Not bad I'd say. They do feel a bit more like a threat. Voth in the space adventure zone were still very easy to kill, but the elite mode ones did feel a bit more beefed up. I actually found my shields in going into red a few times. Voth dreadnought in elite still didn't hit me very hard at all, but it's now a tough sucker to crack within the time limit. Got it down to under 20% before the timer ran out. So I think that one is probably good to go.
I think the normal mode Voth in the space adventure zone still need to be a bit more dangerous. The elite mode Voth seem to be alright, don't think much else needs to be done to them.
Hm, I don't think the mobs that defend the spires in the adventure zone should be beatable by a single ship. After all, the Voth in the Space adventure zone have two functions: 1. Being an entertaining opponent and 2. being the Anti-AFK police.
Other people are boasting that they can do so (one guy even bragging he's using Mk9 gear on a T4 ship). I brought Mk12 weapons, a rep set, even spent points on stuff like Power Insulators (for all the good it seems to do). If its as easy as they're all claiming, I expect to get it right my first try. On the other hand if a less-elite player who's only in the 8-9k dps range actually has to expend effort and even make build adjustments for different enemies, maybe they don't need to be buffed after all.
I was playing tag with the two remaining bullwark battleships from one capture point, minding my business avoiding the syphon and the occasional grav well. Insert random player cruiser pilot rushing in to 'rescue' me. Simply exploded faster than I could say 'blueberry pie'. I didn't ask what gear he had, but seeing that I assume we will get some QQ once the voth invade holodeck.
I can deal with a group of voth ships if I have room to manoeuvre, an unlucky respawn and/or add though means I have to abort and get to a save distance (if possible *cough*).
Anyway! I still maintain that fresh level 50s shouldn't be able to be effective against the Voth at all. As I mentioned earlier, they already have content balanced toward them that they can complete to get themselves geared up. Let's make those Voth some nasty buggers.
If you "gate" content like that, you split the community up,
newbys will be hanging back in the STFS/ESTFS and the more veteran players will be busy
doing their thing, thats not really a good path to move down, because beeing "new" puts you in a unpleasant Situation (compare to Burning Crusade, and the Gating for endgame that was in place there, and safe me the "thats a different game!" because, the situation is the same and the problems will be the same)
So, more or less "invalidating" the Borg Stuff, and inviting everybody to the new stuff, is much better for everybody.
Overall, I like where the adventure zone Voth are at, especially in the contested zone. It's possible to take/hold a tower by yourself with 'good' gear and knowledge of the game, but the groups are strong enough that they'll curbstomp fresh players/characters that aren't working together. It promotes teamwork and improving yourself/your build.
I've recently been mentoring a new player, and their first encounter with the borg was a big adjustment for them. I had forgotten how much of a stepping stone they were back when I first started as well. I think the way the Voth are right now is a good learning experience and offers some lessons about the game you really don't get with most other PVE encounters.
Comments
And here is your bigger problem cryptic, your hole game is based only on grinding with out mercy for MK XII stuff, but the missions are set for MK X white gear. So, why we should grind the MK XII gear?
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
"Elite" in STO poses no challenge at all to a growing number of players.
I really have to disagree with this. There's already a good deal of content that a fresh 50 can play in order to gear themselves up. They have all of the older reps to go through with all of the missions attached to those. Gearing up really isn't that big of a deal now anyway between the rep system and fleet gear. Exchange prices have dropped because of those systems, so it's not like MK XII gear is exceedingly difficult to obtain.
If this is meant to be an expansion on endgame content, then it needs to be balanced to endgame players. Not fresh max levels who already have content available to get them geared up.
Mine Trap Supporter
I know there is poetic license used often in this game. But I agree with what you say Arc!
They are just either sitting there or lumbering around at quarter impulse.
The first and foremost sin in combat is to sit still. You die, end of problem.
Course I know if you make em too hard to fight, peeps will complain like cows out here do on some nights, here in Montana. Can't please everyone, so please us more challenge wanting players first! (Or not.
Wonder if hardened shields could 'angle' their shield facings, for a possible risk of player weapons, hitting back at them, or 'other' players, (or other Voth,) to be a bit more tricky. Or maybe Pattern Delta could be tweaked, since I wasn't having much problem, healing through it, as I fired weapons at the Voth.
Course they are still fun to fight, if you have two groups at yah, on both sides, of on an angle from each other, on yah. There just is 'something' missing with fighting them. And no Borg Cigar lance like crud, since that's to much cheese for even Kraft to make a pasta side with. Sheesh.
I started out trying to move around the shield facings, but once I figured that out, I don't even bother anymore. Chill out and have a drink or something until the shield drops and then blow it to the heavens. Easy.
Mine Trap Supporter
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Will there be any Voth ships with D'Deridex Defender levels of competence, so to speak? They were awesome and quite a challenge one on one.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The problem here is power creep, while the borg in S5 were well tuned, they are chumps now. So you are putting in content that is a push over and unchallenging. I realize its a tough thing to balance something for fresh 50s and more experienced but the gap is.. crazy.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
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First, thank you for sharing your thought process on this. I do appreciate that.
That said, I have to say that I still respectfully disagree with you. Non-STF Borg might still be a decent enemy for a fresh 50 in greens, but for the rest of us they're a total non-threat. I think that if you want to balance them to be more like the Borg, aim for at least ESTF Borg. Those are still mostly tame, but I do see people blowing up to them every once in a while.
Now I understand that you guys wanted the Voth to feel more defensive than offensive, so maybe there's something else here. As I posted on the last page, I can just sit there and slug it out with them until their defenses fail and then blow them to the stars. Thinking about it now, I would say that it's possible that our defenses outweigh the Voth's defenses. Although their uber shield facing is impressive, I just have to wait for it to drop. So right now I can not only out muscle them, I can out defend them.
So maybe instead of just cranking up their damage, maybe crank up their defenses? Or...hmm. Just thought of something.
What about something that nukes our hull resists? Like a beefed up disruptor proc? As the Voth are defensive specialists, they might know how to neutralize defenses better than others. Right now the Voth's weapons have a proc that lowers our crit rates or something right? What about adding a second beefed up disruptor like proc to their weapons? Rather than pure muscle, they could lower attack and defense? That would certainly get me to stop sitting still and blasting at them. Would make me move around a whole lot more.
Hmm, that's not bad. I kind of like that idea rather then just cranking up the DPS actually. It fits with the Voth defensive theme better. Lowering our defenses to make their weapons more powerful. I like it.
Anyway! I still maintain that fresh level 50s shouldn't be able to be effective against the Voth at all. As I mentioned earlier, they already have content balanced toward them that they can complete to get themselves geared up. Let's make those Voth some nasty buggers.
Mine Trap Supporter
I think it would be a good place to have something akin to the resistances fleet shields have. Give players a chance to see them inaction before they save up/ work towards them.
Groups of Voth seem quite easy to take on, and I'm by no means a great player. Personally, at least in the adventure zone, they should possibly be balanced around groups of players (though, this may need rebalancing if/when the adventure zone quietens after a few months or so).
Possibly.
The only reason that I went more for being able to breach our defenses over making them even more tanky is that the end result would just make them large damage sinks that take forever to kill without being any real threat. Unless they have some teeth, defenses don't mean too much since we'll out muscle them in the end. It doesn't matter how many resists and invincible shield facings they toss up right now, I'm going to be breaking through sooner or later. They don't have the teeth to stop me right now.
But since the Voth are more defensive in theme, it does kind of break that theme to make them hit really hard. So I'm actually going to change my previous stance about cranking up their DPS. Instead, give them more ways to breach our defenses other than through raw firepower. Ways to lower our hull resists, increase our shield bleed through percentages, and lowering our damage output. That would make them more of a threat than just some toothless damage sinks.
That said, I'm not against your idea of giving them elite fleet shield resists. I just think that more needs to be done to them than that.
I'm also not asking for the Voth to be geared toward the uber high end players who can clear ESTFs in 2 minutes using highly specialized A2B builds. Rather, gear them more toward the average end game player. Those who have possibly a mix of rep and fleet gear with maybe some MK. XI/XII stuff off the exchange.
It seems like such a waste to me to have the game gear us up all this time only to have yet another piece of content made to be easily accessible by fresh 50s. That's the one stance I'm going to dig in on. :P
(Hmm, that got a bit longer than I thought. >.>; )
Mine Trap Supporter
Also it may be my imagination, but the Voth in contested space seem to be hitting harder now. I can still free a tower by myself, but I can't do it lazily anymore. Unless it was just them getting lucky :P. Wonder if the +20 power to aux improved their sci powers enough to be noticeable. Even thinking about investing in that Dyson regen shield now.
As for the Voth Dreadnought, fought it in Storming the Spire Elite (STSE?) and the tac team made it a real focus threat on the lines of the tac cube, which is good. Previously you could one man it, now it needs a concerted effort from a portion of your team.
Thumbs up from me.
(Don't know if I mentioned it, but great work on making them feel different to the generic NPC mobs
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Not bad I'd say. They do feel a bit more like a threat. Voth in the space adventure zone were still very easy to kill, but the elite mode ones did feel a bit more beefed up. I actually found my shields in going into red a few times. Voth dreadnought in elite still didn't hit me very hard at all, but it's now a tough sucker to crack within the time limit. Got it down to under 20% before the timer ran out. So I think that one is probably good to go.
I think the normal mode Voth in the space adventure zone still need to be a bit more dangerous. The elite mode Voth seem to be alright, don't think much else needs to be done to them.
Mine Trap Supporter
Other people are boasting that they can do so (one guy even bragging he's using Mk9 gear on a T4 ship). I brought Mk12 weapons, a rep set, even spent points on stuff like Power Insulators (for all the good it seems to do). If its as easy as they're all claiming, I expect to get it right my first try. On the other hand if a less-elite player who's only in the 8-9k dps range actually has to expend effort and even make build adjustments for different enemies, maybe they don't need to be buffed after all.
I was playing tag with the two remaining bullwark battleships from one capture point, minding my business avoiding the syphon and the occasional grav well. Insert random player cruiser pilot rushing in to 'rescue' me. Simply exploded faster than I could say 'blueberry pie'. I didn't ask what gear he had, but seeing that I assume we will get some QQ once the voth invade holodeck.
I can deal with a group of voth ships if I have room to manoeuvre, an unlucky respawn and/or add though means I have to abort and get to a save distance (if possible *cough*).
If you "gate" content like that, you split the community up,
newbys will be hanging back in the STFS/ESTFS and the more veteran players will be busy
doing their thing, thats not really a good path to move down, because beeing "new" puts you in a unpleasant Situation (compare to Burning Crusade, and the Gating for endgame that was in place there, and safe me the "thats a different game!" because, the situation is the same and the problems will be the same)
So, more or less "invalidating" the Borg Stuff, and inviting everybody to the new stuff, is much better for everybody.
I've recently been mentoring a new player, and their first encounter with the borg was a big adjustment for them. I had forgotten how much of a stepping stone they were back when I first started as well. I think the way the Voth are right now is a good learning experience and offers some lessons about the game you really don't get with most other PVE encounters.