The grind in STO is nonexistent compared to some MMOs.
That's true. Some games you have to grind for skill, not just gear.
But still, the point is that there is nothing to do at end-game except grind. Are you going to enter the war between the Federation and the Klingons? Maybe you will do some piracy, or maybe you will take bounties against the pirates? Are you going to explore the stars, develop diplomatic ties and trade routes? Maybe take your fleet into competition against other fleets?
There definitely are other business models out there, but few or none have had the broad financial success of the addiction/grind model worldwide. Many of us have high hopes for Chris Reynolds' (Wing Commander/Privateer/Freelancer/etc.) new project though nothing will completely replace the Star Trek setting in my heart.
The real key to the grind element, as mentioned above, is the progression game model. If you have mechanics where you need to play and play to gain levels/improve skills/gather better gear/have more shinies you're inevitably going to have some kind of grind mechanic. If you don't, you're either going to have a phenomenal volume of original content (think something the scale of STO's seasons released twice a month instead of twice a year) or a very very short game.
The rep system needs to be bound to account, this much needs to change. If they need to introduce a new mission set where all of your captains have to complete it and at the end, say, you all become a part of the same crew (to satisfy some Trek lore), so be it.
besides, it was worse before rep came out. in the time it takes you to grind out Omega rep and the Mk XII set's that you want, you would have been LUCKY if you got 1 piece of a Mk XI set.
besides, it was worse before rep came out. in the time it takes you to grind out Omega rep and the Mk XII set's that you want, you would have been LUCKY if you got 1 piece of a Mk XI set.
definitely not true.
in the old system you only needed 2 rare salvage to get an xi piece..
you could build up 40 of those borg chips to get an xi piece.
you would almost always have a full xi set in about 20 to 25 stfs..
now in the new system you have to not only run stfs to get the marks.. but also do all the rep projects AND have the dilithium to buy the gear..
many more then 20 to 25 stfs
[12:35] Vessel Two of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 225232 (271723) Plasma Damage to you with Plasma Lance.
[12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
The grind in STO is nonexistent compared to some MMOs.
That I know all too well, Everquest was notorious having their grind built into the leveling process and of course the End-game by having are drops off raid mobs, which took months to get everyone with something they wanted.
But that was actually fun since you had tons of options to go where you want to level up or which dungeon to raid. However, STO's grind is terrible because we are extremely limited to where we go, the most freedom we got is what mission to earn Dilithum. But people are tired of certain content because they are tired of repeating the same mission over and over again. Then factor in the other characters, which makes it even less fun and more of a job.
Its effectively a death spiral because people will and are getting tired and leaving to someplace else where they can have fun and not "work".
One of their future updates does just need to be a choice of mission related content (Borg, Tholian, Romulan and now I guess Dyson) that allows you to earn marks from places other than the current patrols/adventure/invasion/battle zones.
The other part of the "let them grind" philosophy is that we, for the most part, are players that excel at the game. Have strong feelings regarding the IP, or paticular aspects of the game (PvP, RP, Canon, etc).
Whilst another (larger portion) of the player population is exceedingly happy to run through missions that they can easy beat in small digestible 15-20 minute chunks. Other portions of the population (min maxers) who will happily spend/grind to get that .001 increase/edge.
Myself, I look at it as a purist, I want HARD content... content that may require me to form a team and go at it for hours... or repeat it over and over until we beat it (God I miss the old STF's).
But the fact is, we are the minority. We see in these forums people complaining that they don't have time to spend doing x y or z. They want the fast and quick... and they want to win. As I said, I like to win... BUT I like to work at it. The game I invision would turn off a large portion of the MMO crowd. They want the win ... at all costs. If they can't beat it... they lose interest and move on to something else... Think No Win Scenario (arguably the only mission in the game that the vast majority haven't beaten). In my own fleet, and friends many have stopped playing it...
To keep these more nomadic players... missions are made easily beatable, made smaller, and provide an almost instant reward (loot bag).
If you look at the standard player (and I am really not meaning to come off as insulting), who is happy to refine a little dilithium (not hitting the 8000 mark (Cryptic has already said most players don't). Are happy to just bounce around and do different things and work on their progression through the reps (which aren't required for PvE at all... the simplest of builds can effectively complete any end game content), they don't really see it as a grind... there are how many missions to choose from (38 in the queue alone, not counting special events, nor location repeatable/daily missions)? There is a lot to do in the game...
We see this as a grind, because we (for the most part) are upper echelon players who have mastered the basic mechanics of the game... have builds that do insane amounts of damage... and are quite frankly ... bored. We don't see the challenge... BUT, we are the minority. We then turn to things that have challenge (PvP for example), and as others have stated... rep bonuses becomes important... and we want to complete it as quick as possible. We need that latest XII Console from the Embassy/Mine/Spire... we need the Elite Whatever from the Starbase to remain "competitive". We want it quickly... so we focus on those few missions that reward the highest reward (marks) for time invested. Which, for us... turns it into a grind.
The amount of research into human behavior that goes into this concept that really does work, is nothing short of amazing.
in the old system you only needed 2 rare salvage to get an xi piece..
you could build up 40 of those borg chips to get an xi piece.
you would almost always have a full xi set in about 20 to 25 stfs..
now in the new system you have to not only run stfs to get the marks.. but also do all the rep projects AND have the dilithium to buy the gear..
many more then 20 to 25 stfs
Speak for yourself.
Ran twice that number and didn't get jack.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I agree. took me around 50 or so runs to get my MACO XI ground set, the ONLY space set that was really easy to get was the retrofit borg set, but that was only mk XI when they changed over to the rep system.
still, the point is, mk XII sets are a lot easier to get with the rep system now than they were before.
Is there another business model besides grinding to death players at STO?
I'd say instead of evolving this game into a great way to unwind your day after a hard laborious day...all you have to look for is more grinding which at times feel like a second job.
Not speaking for anyone but myself but STO is becoming a grinding orgy full of repetitive tasks and objectives.
STO has been nothing but an orgy of repetitive tasks and objectives since it was launched (On the old, original forums, I was extremely harsh in my criticism of Cryptic's lacklustre development of this game in BETA, let alone post-launch.
It did get a little better after PWE bought Cryptic (wow, did I just say PWE made something BETTER than it was? Shocking), but the basic idea that you do the exact same thing every single mission, with cookie-cutter design and no evidence of any ingenuity or innovation, has been the foundation of STO since before it launched.
PWE just added the horrible grinding for dilithium and marks.
It is what it is. The only reason, for me anyway, to keep playing is the really good people in my fleet. If it weren't for them, I'd have forgotten about STO long ago because of exactly the things you point out.
I made my suggestions for killing grind and increasing playability years ago. Those suggestions were ignored by the developers and flamed by the fanbois who are STILL crying "Give it time!" and praising Cryptic while flaming anyone who has anything even remotely negative to say about the game like the most incredible kind of sycophants you'll ever see.
So it is what it is and it's here to stay. The best suggestion I can make is to make sure you're in a fleet with good, fun people - and play the game to enjoy your friends, because grinding this hard for anything in a video game certainly isn't something to enjoy.
Is there another business model besides grinding to death players at STO?
I'd say instead of evolving this game into a great way to unwind your day after a hard laborious day...all you have to look for is more grinding which at times feel like a second job.
Not speaking for anyone but myself but STO is becoming a grinding orgy full of repetitive tasks and objectives. I know that nobody is putting a gun to make people stay here but just stating this is not the "only way to make a fast buck". Lots of dear friends come and go due to the complete and utterly boring experience that grinding has become....not that they care since for the ones leaving others would come till they get tired then the cycle repeats itself.
Not complaining either just stating a FACT of the game and would be prudent to please seek for another model that enhances player retention and still make a fast buck for Cryptic. Perhaps the C store is unprofitable but Aren't the boxes good enough or the sale of packages like LoR? Why the masochistic attitude to punish players with some sort of formula that people need to invest certain time to equalize a benefit...say better gear or upgrades. What happened to the random drops? Used to be great in prior seasons and at least kept people HOPING for better gear. Nowadays its just an incessant hopeless and boring experience.
Omega marks, Romulan Marks, Nukara, All fleet projects (mine, Dil and SB) and even the fun ones (seasonal events - yeah if you want to have "real" fun...please grind some more).
To top it all continues through season 8 with the Spires projects as well the Dyson Adventure zone. What is so fun in adventure zone if you are grinding B to get to A?
I guess the better name for S8 would be "to grind where nobody has dare to grind before". What happened to the gazillions of fixes or even upgrading the same old PvP maps we are using since launched?
Grinding is NOT fun please make drops RANDOM or come up with a better alternative. I'm sure lots will disagree but to each its own...just stating the problem that there has to be a better way that's all.
Crafting. That alone would make for a much more interesting game. The only crafting in STO is the foundry, and although it is awesome, it does not alter our player or ship in any way as true crafting should.
The rep system needs to be bound to account, this much needs to change. If they need to introduce a new mission set where all of your captains have to complete it and at the end, say, you all become a part of the same crew (to satisfy some Trek lore), so be it.
But the rep system, yeah QUOTE]
WONDERFUL POINT!!! I'm all for having the rep system be account bound rather than character...at least will diminish the mundane grinding.
in the old system you only needed 2 rare salvage to get an xi piece..
you could build up 40 of those borg chips to get an xi piece.
you would almost always have a full xi set in about 20 to 25 stfs..
now in the new system you have to not only run stfs to get the marks.. but also do all the rep projects AND have the dilithium to buy the gear..
many more then 20 to 25 stfs
The good old days...at least there was an element of SURPRISE and RANDOMNESS to get something (felt like unpacking a well deserved present on your birthday - sense of excitement) rather than the nowadays feeling of being in a detention camp to get anything decent. I leveled up 8 VAs in the old days with full gear STFs (space/ground) so much quicker than what I do nowdays in a single rep with just one alternate. I hope those who wanted the S6 changed are happier but at least making reps account wide rather than character bound would be a start
I hear some F2P game companies have hire psychologists to advise on how to make their games more addictive, and to discover how get people to spend more money.
They failed, I have for long left the scene. Why ? Bored. And this boredom transfreed to Neverwinter too. PWE/Cryptic need's a new scheme. Soemting new will draw me in ... for a while. The same dilithium/astraldiamondtozen scheme will not suffice.
Whatever we deny or embrace, we belong togheter./ Pat Benatar
I don't do grinding. If something starts to feel like a grind to me, I stop doing that. I don't feel any desire to get shinies that are gated behind a grind.
If players generally stopped doing grindy stuff because it was grindy, then the devs wouldn't keep adding things like the reputation systems. Inexplicably, there are many players who love endgame grind.
There are plenty of things to keep me busy in the game without grinding. It helps that I have altitis. It would be nice if the devs would stick adding non-grindy content, but at least they add some new episodes for me now and then.
That I know all too well, Everquest was notorious having their grind built into the leveling process and of course the End-game by having are drops off raid mobs, which took months to get everyone with something they wanted.
But that was actually fun since you had tons of options to go where you want to level up or which dungeon to raid. However, STO's grind is terrible because we are extremely limited to where we go, the most freedom we got is what mission to earn Dilithum. But people are tired of certain content because they are tired of repeating the same mission over and over again. Then factor in the other characters, which makes it even less fun and more of a job.
Its effectively a death spiral because people will and are getting tired and leaving to someplace else where they can have fun and not "work".
Yeah, that sort of approach stank in Diablo 2. Especially when you have free-for-all looting...
its the dam dill grind that REALLY pisses me of, i mean EVERY end game peice of gear requires rediculus amounts of it and then to top it of we are capped with how much we can refine every day so even if we do have enough technicaly we are denies access to our hard work unless we log in every day and refine untill we have none left, considering that dill is bound to your character and its impossable to directly trade with another account at all why cant the limit just be removed so we can at least get a weapon without having to wait a good 2 days cause that beam or turret costs a whopping 28k per weapon, then you got the other ship equipment to get thats way more than 28k a peice and then folks are still expected to chip in for fleet projects ( btw someone please tell me why it costs 120k dill for a fully functional ship with gear attached to it yet 200k for a fecking fish tank that does nothing?)
I happen to like grinding. I have the patience, not so much the time, but... the game ain't goin away any time soon, so... take it easy, one thing at a time.
You can definitely enjoy doing it, but doing it like you're on a damn schedule on a million toons will surely make you sick of it.
I'm a little conflicted whe it comes to the grind in this game. Normally I'm the sort of person who likes to grind in a game, but i'm having issues with it in STO.
Now, for the rest of this post I'd like to forget about the fleet system if I may, and focus just on the reputation system.
I think part of the issue is that it feels like there is no pay off for the grind, yes I know i get access to new kit, but I don't actually need that kit for any of the story missions, or even the STF's. The other problem for me is that they all come in at once, at max level.
For me, I would prefer the leveling to be harder, and take longer, with the reputaion sytems being staggerd throughout the journey, with the rewards for the grind being items I need, or at least will struggle without, in subsiquent story arcs. It would then feel like I was rewarded for my grind.
At the moment it jut feels like a rush to max level to begin the grind with no payoff.
Is there another business model besides grinding to death players at STO?
No, there is not*. Any other questions?
*Foundry could be your answer. There is no way in hell any game company can make enough content to keep grinding away. But if a few hundred/thousand players make missions, then yes, there could be enough content. BUT you won't get any of the end game marks/credits, so there is a down side.
Comments
But still, the point is that there is nothing to do at end-game except grind. Are you going to enter the war between the Federation and the Klingons? Maybe you will do some piracy, or maybe you will take bounties against the pirates? Are you going to explore the stars, develop diplomatic ties and trade routes? Maybe take your fleet into competition against other fleets?
There's nothing to do except grind.
The real key to the grind element, as mentioned above, is the progression game model. If you have mechanics where you need to play and play to gain levels/improve skills/gather better gear/have more shinies you're inevitably going to have some kind of grind mechanic. If you don't, you're either going to have a phenomenal volume of original content (think something the scale of STO's seasons released twice a month instead of twice a year) or a very very short game.
But the rep system, yeah, damn.
besides, it was worse before rep came out. in the time it takes you to grind out Omega rep and the Mk XII set's that you want, you would have been LUCKY if you got 1 piece of a Mk XI set.
definitely not true.
in the old system you only needed 2 rare salvage to get an xi piece..
you could build up 40 of those borg chips to get an xi piece.
you would almost always have a full xi set in about 20 to 25 stfs..
now in the new system you have to not only run stfs to get the marks.. but also do all the rep projects AND have the dilithium to buy the gear..
many more then 20 to 25 stfs
[12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
That I know all too well, Everquest was notorious having their grind built into the leveling process and of course the End-game by having are drops off raid mobs, which took months to get everyone with something they wanted.
But that was actually fun since you had tons of options to go where you want to level up or which dungeon to raid. However, STO's grind is terrible because we are extremely limited to where we go, the most freedom we got is what mission to earn Dilithum. But people are tired of certain content because they are tired of repeating the same mission over and over again. Then factor in the other characters, which makes it even less fun and more of a job.
Its effectively a death spiral because people will and are getting tired and leaving to someplace else where they can have fun and not "work".
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
Whilst another (larger portion) of the player population is exceedingly happy to run through missions that they can easy beat in small digestible 15-20 minute chunks. Other portions of the population (min maxers) who will happily spend/grind to get that .001 increase/edge.
Myself, I look at it as a purist, I want HARD content... content that may require me to form a team and go at it for hours... or repeat it over and over until we beat it (God I miss the old STF's).
But the fact is, we are the minority. We see in these forums people complaining that they don't have time to spend doing x y or z. They want the fast and quick... and they want to win. As I said, I like to win... BUT I like to work at it. The game I invision would turn off a large portion of the MMO crowd. They want the win ... at all costs. If they can't beat it... they lose interest and move on to something else... Think No Win Scenario (arguably the only mission in the game that the vast majority haven't beaten). In my own fleet, and friends many have stopped playing it...
To keep these more nomadic players... missions are made easily beatable, made smaller, and provide an almost instant reward (loot bag).
If you look at the standard player (and I am really not meaning to come off as insulting), who is happy to refine a little dilithium (not hitting the 8000 mark (Cryptic has already said most players don't). Are happy to just bounce around and do different things and work on their progression through the reps (which aren't required for PvE at all... the simplest of builds can effectively complete any end game content), they don't really see it as a grind... there are how many missions to choose from (38 in the queue alone, not counting special events, nor location repeatable/daily missions)? There is a lot to do in the game...
We see this as a grind, because we (for the most part) are upper echelon players who have mastered the basic mechanics of the game... have builds that do insane amounts of damage... and are quite frankly ... bored. We don't see the challenge... BUT, we are the minority. We then turn to things that have challenge (PvP for example), and as others have stated... rep bonuses becomes important... and we want to complete it as quick as possible. We need that latest XII Console from the Embassy/Mine/Spire... we need the Elite Whatever from the Starbase to remain "competitive". We want it quickly... so we focus on those few missions that reward the highest reward (marks) for time invested. Which, for us... turns it into a grind.
The amount of research into human behavior that goes into this concept that really does work, is nothing short of amazing.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Speak for yourself.
Ran twice that number and didn't get jack.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I agree. took me around 50 or so runs to get my MACO XI ground set, the ONLY space set that was really easy to get was the retrofit borg set, but that was only mk XI when they changed over to the rep system.
still, the point is, mk XII sets are a lot easier to get with the rep system now than they were before.
STO has been nothing but an orgy of repetitive tasks and objectives since it was launched (On the old, original forums, I was extremely harsh in my criticism of Cryptic's lacklustre development of this game in BETA, let alone post-launch.
It did get a little better after PWE bought Cryptic (wow, did I just say PWE made something BETTER than it was? Shocking), but the basic idea that you do the exact same thing every single mission, with cookie-cutter design and no evidence of any ingenuity or innovation, has been the foundation of STO since before it launched.
PWE just added the horrible grinding for dilithium and marks.
It is what it is. The only reason, for me anyway, to keep playing is the really good people in my fleet. If it weren't for them, I'd have forgotten about STO long ago because of exactly the things you point out.
I made my suggestions for killing grind and increasing playability years ago. Those suggestions were ignored by the developers and flamed by the fanbois who are STILL crying "Give it time!" and praising Cryptic while flaming anyone who has anything even remotely negative to say about the game like the most incredible kind of sycophants you'll ever see.
So it is what it is and it's here to stay. The best suggestion I can make is to make sure you're in a fleet with good, fun people - and play the game to enjoy your friends, because grinding this hard for anything in a video game certainly isn't something to enjoy.
Crafting. That alone would make for a much more interesting game. The only crafting in STO is the foundry, and although it is awesome, it does not alter our player or ship in any way as true crafting should.
This will happen the day the Jem'Hadar are made a playable race
They failed, I have for long left the scene. Why ? Bored. And this boredom transfreed to Neverwinter too. PWE/Cryptic need's a new scheme. Soemting new will draw me in ... for a while. The same dilithium/astraldiamondtozen scheme will not suffice.
If players generally stopped doing grindy stuff because it was grindy, then the devs wouldn't keep adding things like the reputation systems. Inexplicably, there are many players who love endgame grind.
There are plenty of things to keep me busy in the game without grinding. It helps that I have altitis. It would be nice if the devs would stick adding non-grindy content, but at least they add some new episodes for me now and then.
My character Tsin'xing
"Is there an end to it?" No,the Reputation System is a key factor for adding the real 'content' a.k.a 'The Next Lock Box'.
Take back your home,end the grind!
Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.
anyways rant over
now we have gold sellers on the forums..........
system Lord Baal is dead
You can definitely enjoy doing it, but doing it like you're on a damn schedule on a million toons will surely make you sick of it.
I want to pay to bypass it! Or at least get 75% of it out of the way!
Now, for the rest of this post I'd like to forget about the fleet system if I may, and focus just on the reputation system.
I think part of the issue is that it feels like there is no pay off for the grind, yes I know i get access to new kit, but I don't actually need that kit for any of the story missions, or even the STF's. The other problem for me is that they all come in at once, at max level.
For me, I would prefer the leveling to be harder, and take longer, with the reputaion sytems being staggerd throughout the journey, with the rewards for the grind being items I need, or at least will struggle without, in subsiquent story arcs. It would then feel like I was rewarded for my grind.
At the moment it jut feels like a rush to max level to begin the grind with no payoff.
No, there is not*. Any other questions?
*Foundry could be your answer. There is no way in hell any game company can make enough content to keep grinding away. But if a few hundred/thousand players make missions, then yes, there could be enough content. BUT you won't get any of the end game marks/credits, so there is a down side.