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Is science a waste of time?
firestonepale31
Member Posts: 4 Arc User
I have been reading alot through out the forums and have seen quite a dump on science captains and vessles.
Im concerned because i love the suport role in most mmo's but have not seen many fleets with an interest in the role. I would hate to put effort into a class and build that will have minimal if any use in end game content.
Are there any science captains that run a science ship and consider them selves crucial to end game play?
Im concerned because i love the suport role in most mmo's but have not seen many fleets with an interest in the role. I would hate to put effort into a class and build that will have minimal if any use in end game content.
Are there any science captains that run a science ship and consider them selves crucial to end game play?
Post edited by firestonepale31 on
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Science is PvP king by debuff boosts, and by far the best "shield healer" out there - making it a competing space tank-role for Engi captains. Its not a top DPS, but its team helpfulness via debuffing or shield assisting-healing can't be denied. On ground Sci runs as the PvE heal-tank on occasion, being able to stay alive far easier than other ground types, where Engi is the main damage via mines. Tac play the redshirt role down there.
Science is fine, nothing wrong with it, but you gotta get used to the STO dynamic for it.
If you're doing Foundry or Rep grinds the Science works as well as any other type of ship. Even though these things are often still DPScentric they're still quite easily doable with Sci.
There are uses for Sci in PvP as well. Decloaking, holding, buffing etc are are useful abilities in PvP.
Science is my favorite type of ship but I've generally found many ways to make myself useful. But taht usually starts by joining a Fleet and playing with regular people rather then PUGs. Far too often PUGs are about speed and efficiency rather then any real sense of teamplay or comradery.
Support roles are understated in this game IMO. Sure DPS is king, but I can't tell you how many times I wished someone on my team could heal me. In PUGs, you can't really expect people to be competent enough or caring enough to heal you. But it sure is nice to receive it and I'd say if you like the support role then jump into it.
Just remember you don't have to fly science vessels as a science captain. I'm not saying science vessels are bad btw - but if you want to play a support role, have a look at the Fleet Ambassador. Especially now that cruisers are gonna get the Avenger's new team auras. Hopefully science vessels get something akin to that in the near future.
The only sci support skills needed in pve can be performed adequately enough by a tac captain using an escort that has Lt Cmdr Sci such as gravity well 1 or tractor beam repulsors.
Don't expect bulk or Super DPS (although you CAN make do those with Science vessels as well). Science is master at Crowd Control, debuffing and team healing.
Tricobalt builds are particularly fun with CC, although Transphasic is also an option due to the relative low hull strength of science vessels.
Torpedo builds allow you to go full-aux and don't worry about weapon energy.
Nothing a sci does is overly useful in this game, especially when considering the ENG cruisers do it all, do it better, do it with more weapons, do it with better damage output which you NEED in this game -- you can't just "assist" with your sci. When you're on a timer you need to get your butt in gear and do some freaking damage. It doesn't matter if you heal your teammates' shields once in a while if the end result is you lose the mission because they were working a 4-man team because your sci ship was useless to the effort.
PvP is a joke as well The damage output of a sci ship is a joke. They're a distraction, a nuisance, used so your teammates can get an upper hand. You get better buff/debuff as a TAC in this game than as a SCI. APB and APO.
Science gives you... hrm.....
Well let's look at offense, and healing/defense....
Offense... hrm... surely there are some tools in the SCI kit?
Energy siphon? No that sucks, draining ONLY 9 power and ONLY for 5 lousy seconds... What else.. Hm.... Grav well? Does nothing in PvP, sucks terribly against PvE, does little to no damage and the pull is just a nuisance effect. Great for slowing down ships without really damaging them, but then so are chroniton mines! Hrm... Jam sensors? Nope, sucks because it's only a placate... as soon as the target receives damage it disappears. Hrm... what else? Photonic shockwave? Nope! Even if you had one of the weakest escorts or birds of prey with NO SHIELDS sitting inside the 5k distance needed to hit them, you would ONLY do less than 1/10th damage to their entire hull, and that's WIHTOUT shields!! Forget about PvE with ships that have 700,000 hull points. Tyken's Rift? It's supposed to drain so much power a ship is stuck in space, but it's a MILD drain on them in this game. MILD is putting it kindly. It does so little damage its main effect is to slow down. Essentially crowd control, like Grav Well, without ever doing any work to help you kill what you're controlling. But, surely you can aid your team by using those sci skills to take down enemy shields, right? Like Tachyon beam? Suuuuure... except is sucks! I used it extensively for a while and it was a freaking TRIBBLE in the wind to any PvE ship, useless, and not worth the boff slot it occupies. Ooh, I know! Viral Matrix, right? Wrong. Even if it worked it would last for 4 seconds. Does almost nothing to PvE targets. They don't really have SYSTEMs to disable. They aren't coded like normal ships. They cheat at everything, so most sci effects have nothing to act upon.
But it can still be a healer, right? As mentioned TSS is a pale comparison to ES. Sci Team is only useful for sub-nuc debuff and ANY ship can stock it, not just a science ship. Sci team will almost always be on cooldown if you use Tac Team and/or Eng team, since all 3 use the same cooldown trigger, and if you're hit with sub-nuc in the middle of a fight you've probably already balanced your shields with TT, thus negating ST as a useful tool. Hazard Emitters, right? Well they clean plasma fires and the borg shield neutralizer, but the hull heal they give is a almost 1/4th what Engineering Team gives you. Okay, but what about scramble sensors? You get an ungodly long cool down for something that works for ONLY 5 seconds. In that 5 seconds it MAY cause enemy ships to target other enemies, but not always! It doesn't stop them from attacking you at all! Worthless skill. Okay, but you're being attacked and want to use Feedback Pulse to do some damage, right? Nope! FBP is not nearly as useful as Reverse Shield Polarity. RSP actually turns that enemy fire into MORE SHIELDS, where as FBP only does 25% damage back, of which 50% only will get through shields on enemy ships. So that's 1/8th the damage you are receiving going back to your attacker, and only for 15 seconds (with another ungodly long cooldown afterwards). If you're being attacked so badly in 15 seconds to do any damage to a ship attacking you with FBP, you'd be blown up 8x over before you ever incur damage to them.
The ONLY thing that sci is useful for in this game is tractor beam (not for any damage, but for crowd control) and tractor beam repulsors. The latter being mildly more useful. Note, however, that such low-level skills are available on ALL ships, even escorts, and not unique to sci ships at all.
In fact, the way Cryptic have ruined the sci class it has NO usefulness over a ENG cruiser or a TAC escort in any PvE in this game. Their use in PvP is a joke since PvP in this game is a joke as well (and woefully broken on so many levels it's not worth getting into).
If you're thinking of rolling a SCI: don't. Just don't. Cryptic MAY change it in the far future to make them more useful, but their history on the Sci class from the start until today has been to shift all focus away from that class and eventually I predict it will be removed entirely. IF the game lasts that long.
You seem a little bitter. Does it feel good to get that off your chest? Sci are great in PvP. SNB alone is crucial in actually killing stuff in PvP. Sensor scan + SNB + alpha hits ok. NOt as nice as a tac but more effective on a cruiser then a tac might be. Engineers, however, are hopeless on offense. But they make for a pretty light show on their beam boats.
A poor rant. More of a wall of text than actually explaining it.
A Science Captain has a certain skill that specifically helps in shield resistance and regeneration - that is what makes it work well.
There is no requirement that the Science Captain must fly a Science Ship, and a said Science Capt in say an Odessey using TSS III and ES III along with that skill is by far the single best shield-healer you'll find.
BTW, if you missed the memmo - GW got a buff. My Sci capt abuses the thing like hell now with actual skill in Grav and Particle Generators and it yanks enemies from a good 6km off quite well. CC that does rather well. But, you don't have to be a Sci capt to use a Sci ship for such a power.
The question stated specifically asked if it was a waste, and the answer remains no - but you need to learn the dynamics of how such a captain or ship can perform well with science skills.
As for the rest of the rant there... tl/dr
Your ignoring my comments is vastly showing because I explained, IN DETAIL, how GW will pull but not damage. Pull is great for CC, but not as great as EWP. The damage is barely a tickle. Even the lowest-tier PvE enemy targets won't be killed by maxed out GW3 today. I ran GW3 with max skills and consoles to get the MOST out of it, and fired it at a swarm of 8-9 fighters... yes, FIGHTERS, not even ships... And it barely made a dent. It clustered them together so I could CSV them to death, but the damage from the GW isnt' enough to even harm PETS.
I reject your ignorant response because you didn't bother reading or comprehending before nay-saying.
The answer is still a resounding: YES it is a waste of time to roll a new sci right now.
As for ENG beam boats not doing damage? HAH! With the right setup they can run max power levels nonstop to shields and weapons at ALL TIMES gaining a very high DPS, while STILL retaining cross-healing and/or buff/debuf and/or crowd control on top of that! Putting a sci in a non-sci ship is fine and dandy, but don't expect to be considered a sci if you're just using sub-nuc and sensors. Sci means spec'd for sci skills, geared for sci skills, using your specialty. I ran my sci in a fully decked out escort with the same setup as my TAC escort, and didn't do nearly as much damage because the innate TAC skills boost damage, and the TAC was spec'd in weapons output, weapons crit, weapons accuracy, etc. Skill points that a SCI won't focus on.
When you come across like that, there is no real reason to read it.
Besides, you can't say its not worth it when I, and many other players can attest to it working well. Odds are you have just not found how to mix and mash the powers and timing properly to make them work well.
It takes practice -and if you give up and dismiss an entire CLASS of skills down the drain without trying there is no reason to assume you have any idea on how they work.
so wait you find sci useless because you don't like itO_o... and you want it to be removed because you find it useless... rofl just another haters it seems... the wall of texts I read don't explain much to help him out... I have seen good sci in pvp... and pve vesta is nice ship if flown right and just because you don't know how to propyl play sci captain that don't give you the right to tell him not to make one O_O.... Sci had some skills buffed they working on fixing stuff so in time they fix stuff ... engine and sci and tac have all different abiltys all do them different O_o. so why you telling him not to make a sci captain beats me. I made one because I want to play one and I do fine in stfs so I don't see the problem :P
Well like I said they all different captains ... that's your problem my friend don't go telling people how to make or play captains... maybe he will find useful thing for the sci captain let him play what he wants .. You trying to be like them people who control others game play O_o... really
It is true you usually won't get the highest dps but will be more than useful.
You had some good points and some bad points, and I do agree on a couple of them.
What the main point our fine Ratty friend is complaining about is that Sci Captains suck while flying Sci Ships. And that is true. Sci Captains (ironically) get very few benefits while flying ships of the same class. Sci Captains are much better off flying escorts or cruisers. Not all Sci abilities are terrible, Subnuke, Scattering Field, and Sensor Scan are all very useful abilities, and I would not give them up for all the DPS enhancing abilities in the world, but they are far more suited to not sci ships.
That's not to say sci ships are unuseful either, they just fair better with a Tac captain. Since all damage increasing abilities stack, and most damage increasing abilities apply to all forms of damage, and Tacs have nothing damage increasing abilities, if have Photonic Shockwave with a Tac Captain, it becomes possible to Fus Ro Dah anyone dumb enough to pick a fight with you.
(Course, that may have changed in the time I have not been playing, but it was possible at one point)
I fly a Sci in a cruiser. I would never touch a Sci ship.
Almost.
While most people know it from "The Naked Now", there was already a similar instance in TOS ("The Paradise Syndrome") where they use the ship to try and alter the course of an asteroid. Admittedly there they use the defector, but then it probably produced a tractor beam.
exactly what he said...PVP excellent class. in PVE very hard to build right in a sci vessel, but OK with escorts.
If you want a blow-by-blow rebuttal.....
Energy Siphon - Yeah, that's only if you don't spec into it. I gain 40+ power from it, drain about 20+ from PvP targets and enough to shut down PvE enemies. Also, it lasts 24 seconds.
Grav Well - due to the fixes, it clears spam and holds multiple enemies at once - which is extremely effective for explosive chain-reactions in PvE and can effectively disrupt cruiserballs in PvP. Also, unlike EWP, it can't be cleared - and aftershocks are extremely useful in yanking people out of cloak.
Jam Sensors - don't use it on whoever you're shooting at. Otherwise, it really is awful.
Photonic Shockwave - it's a disruption. Clear spam, with shockwave doffs, disrupts extends and TIF, along with being nice to get a friendly out of a tractor jam.
Tyken's Rift - You really didn't try it after the fix, did you? It drains over 100 power when specced into now - you just need to hold the target there for 5 seconds to kill his engines. Tractor will do fine for that - and he's dead.
Viral Matrix - Agreed, semi-useless in PvE. However, it's a great utility power for PvP - especially since people started running Romulan boffs instead of Humans. Shutting down engines, weapons or aux are all very dangerous, especially against AtB boats.
Science Team - you need to note that it clears things like AMS as well. Furthermore, note that Subnukes do not add cooldown to shared cooldowns - so Science Team will come back up a lot faster than something cycled. Furthermore, it's very useful to toss on teammates who have just gotten subnuked!
Hazard Emitters - Total up the heal provided with high aux and a decent spec. It heals a bunch more than Engineering Team does then.
Scramble Sensors - Not worth a thing in PvE. However, it's excellent in PvP! It can TRIBBLE up a healer's targeting quite a bit. Also, someone scrambled but still targeting you? That means any team-castable heals he has - such as Tac Team, AP Delta or Aux to Structural - will get cast on you! Hence, he has to break lock. Also, if you spec, it can hit 15 seconds or so.
Feedback Pulse - You really underestimated this one. The multiplier of damage fed back is dependent on Aux and particle gens - and can be pushed up to 0.8 or 0.9. Some can even get it over 1.0! It's only uncommon in PvP because it's solely a "stop shooting me" button - like RSP, actually. There have been many cases of the Sci ship surviving and killing the escort shooting at it.
Transfer Shield Strength - Yes, less powerful than Extend Shields - however, it's not gonna get interrupted by an Aux offline, interrupt or getting pushed out of range.
TL;DR: Your perception of these powers is all based on something like 50 aux and not speccing into them. Of course they'd be useless, same way weapons fire with 50 weapons power and no tac consoles would be useless. Not to mention you seem to have no idea of how to apply Science in PvP. Almost all Science is situational, but it absolutely kills in those situations. Just you wait until you face a Sci who actually has an idea of what he's doing.
Well, here you go. I went down your list, skill by skill, systematically, and you've been blind to a lot of things. Sci isn't supposed to do damage - it's supposed to debuff the target to the point that your damage is effective - and amplify everyone else's!
I play a science vessel on my sci in PvP - and I find it much better than playing a Sci-scort, in the team context. Take your own nay-saying somewhere else. Don't act so high-and-mighty just because you can't figure out how to play Science properly.
Science takes a little getting used to, especially on the damage front but they can be so much more fun to fly than the simple play styles of tacticals etc (pop all buffs and watch your target go boom).
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And Scramble Sensors 3 every A2B BFAW DEMarion Avenger you see. Because the best answer to something melting your hull... is to make him melt his friends' hulls!
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I got into my Sci with some trepidation, having read all the negative stuff about Sci, and for a fact Sci probably isn't in as good a place as it could be and ought to be. But I got some good advice from some of the experienced Sci people here, and I have to say that, especially with the recent changes to Gravity Well and Tyken's Rift, if Sci was perhaps out of business (except for drain builds) for a while, it's now slowly getting back into business.
At least, for general PvE, i.e. solo and STFs. For solo PvE (missions, exploration, etc.), you can build for fairly hefty damage if you go for a torp boat. Torps and Sci/Sci mix very well together (at least until you start gearing up for endgame gear, which opens up your possibilities a bit more). PvP I haven't gotten into yet so can't say, but by all accounts, Sci is highly valued in PvP.
But this is all in the context of: sadly, and usually despite the best of intentions, most MMOs eventually default to "damage is king" in endgame PvE, and with the types of players who are all about minimizing the time spent in an STF, yes, Sci/Sci is probably not optimal.
But to counterbalance that, if you're in PUG, or a a team that isn't that bothered about shaving microseconds off completion time, Sci/Sci is just fine for STFs and does make a contribution (esp now with GW and TR) - but more importantly it's a lot of fun to play. Sci being a "mage" class is all about doing things with lots of different keypresses and combinations of keypresses. So if you like that kind of "fiddly" gameplay, you'll like Sci.
Top tip: investment in skills and equipment (e.g. deflector, consoles) is a bit more finicky than with other classes. While you have a broad pallette of possibilities, you will generally be able to specialize only in one or two types of "thing", and have to stack consoles for it, and min-max everything else around it too (e.g. universal consoles, deflector, high aux, even warp core and engines). Then you will have quite a noticeable effect. Unfortunately, it's not possible to be a true "jack of all trades" with Sci, you have to pick a "thing (e.g. Drain, Debuff, Confuse, Placate, Healing, Damage, etc., etc.) and build around that. But if you do that and build carefully and work around the limitations, you won't be disappointed.
That's the only thing that matters, everything else is others' opinions based upon their idea of fun.
Personally I very much enjoy my Science ship and wouldn't give a damn if others thought little of it.
Just enjoy.
Cheers.
Builds:
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