It would be nice if we had some clarification on just what the ship classes are supposed to perform like. Are they all supposed to be able to do about the same damage (with escorts being a bit ahead) over the course of the PvE mission or is it supposed to play like the trinity everyone keeps saying? (healer, tank damage dealer)
.
Problem is that you normally don?t need a dedicated healer or tank in pve. Since the ships are tough enough, even if you go full offense. Basically the pve content didn?t keep up with the ships. They need more sustained dmg and a bit less spike.
Best example for that is the Klingon Scoutforce Fleetaction. When you have to kill the crusiers you do it so fast that you basically ahve to wait most the time until they respawn.
Same with the elite stfs (at least the ones i play), normally you should only be able to get the optionals done when the group really does a perfect job, not only an average one.
I know i might repeat myself, but when you have a commander ability (no matter which class) with a high cooldown, that you can counter by clicking at 1 skill, the ability should really have a heavy effect on the target, when you are skilled in it.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
I know i might repeat myself, but when you have a commander ability (no matter which class) with a high cooldown, that you can counter by clicking at 1 skill, the ability should really have a heavy effect on the target, when you are skilled in it.
You mean like when you can pop APA + APO 3 + CRF 2 and the target RSPs with 1 skill and nullifies all of that? Just to tally for you, that's actually 2 skills and a captain ability all nullified by one power.
Or when you pop APA + APO 3 + CRF 2 and get hit with SS 3 for 30s ruining your entire alpha?
Or let's say you have none of that and just use CRF 3 which can pretty much be countered with just having a good build with high resistances, and maybe popping Tac team?
Do you mean like that?
Sorry, but Sci CMD abilities aren't the only ones that can be "1 skill" countered.
You mean like when you can pop APA + APO 3 + CRF 2 and the target RSPs with 1 skill and nullifies all of that? Just to tally for you, that's actually 2 skills and a captain ability all nullified by one power.
Or when you pop APA + APO 3 + CRF 2 and get hit with SS 3 for 30s ruining your entire alpha?
Or let's say you have none of that and just use CRF 3 which can pretty much be countered with just having a good build with high resistances, and maybe popping Tac team?
Do you mean like that?
Sorry, but Sci CMD abilities aren't the only ones that can be "1 skill" countered.
I didn?t say anything else. I just said it should really have an effect on the target. And atm a stationary drain just don?t has that impact, cause it is way to easy to get away from it.
Not to mention the nice resistence you get when you skill into power insulators, which is something you can?t do that way against a raw dmg skill.
Wold be the same if i could skill in shield systems and get a 50% resistence agains dmg out of it as a passive.
Sure you can get high shield resistences also, but you have to use boff abilities for it. Would be nice if it would be the same with the resistence to drains.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
Not enough purges. Everything needs Subnuc to be cleared? WTF?
Crazy thought:
Give Target Subsystem powers a buff cleanse of the accompanying powerset? IE: TS:W cleanses X weapon (CRF/CSV, THY/TS, FAW/BO +/- EPtW) buffs. TS:S cleanses X shield buffs (ES, EPtS, TSS, RSP), etc.
You mean like when you can pop APA + APO 3 + CRF 2 and the target RSPs with 1 skill and nullifies all of that? Just to tally for you, that's actually 2 skills and a captain ability all nullified by one power.
Or when you pop APA + APO 3 + CRF 2 and get hit with SS 3 for 30s ruining your entire alpha?
Or let's say you have none of that and just use CRF 3 which can pretty much be countered with just having a good build with high resistances, and maybe popping Tac team?
Do you mean like that?
Sorry, but Sci CMD abilities aren't the only ones that can be "1 skill" countered.
There are 1 click (lets call it 1 ability counters) to a lot of things or at least mitigation for a reason. It's so you can't just stack up on the quite frankly ludicrous levels of damage and roflpwn everyone without them even standing a chance. That and so you can have at least 1 counter to be ganked even if it is only for 8s.
I mean can you seriously tell me that anyone stands a chance at resisting even 1 decent alpha strike without tactical team or RSP or some other mitigation like Jam sensor etc? Shield distribution is not very good in this game and it hasn't kept up with the silly numbers of damage players put out. Fix that and you might see less TT spam, people might only choose 1-2 "lolz, goodbye alpha" abilities.
Hell with DEM getting thrust into the spotlight with the EptW changes even that's a way to bypass RSP and a fair number or mitigation abilities and frankly lethal to a science ships and escorts if you can pin them down or just keep hitting them.
Subnuc, I'm tired of hearing about this 1 ability as being so OP it breaks everything and mitigates everything. Really I'm just getting sick of this subnuc counters this, subnuc counters that as if it's some kind of uber spammable tactical ability.
There are 1 click (lets call it 1 ability counters) to a lot of things or at least mitigation for a reason. It's so you can't just stack up on the quite frankly ludicrous levels of damage and roflpwn everyone without them even standing a chance.
And that's why there need to be downsides to AoE Debuffs that can be spammed by multiple ships in conjunction with other AoE control powers that can wreak havoc on the opposing team's ability to maneuver and counter your team.
So that was the point of my statement, that Sci abilites are not the only ones that can be "countered" so easily.
Subnuc, I'm tired of hearing about this 1 ability as being so OP it breaks everything and mitigates everything. Really I'm just getting sick of this subnuc counters this, subnuc counters that as if it's some kind of uber spammable tactical ability.
Be tired of hearing it then, because it's the truth.
There is no single greater power or more useful power to any premade PvP team than Subnuc.
It is the ultimate trump card, it is stronger than any other Career power and can strip all of them and every other buff at once.
Until you actually play in an organized PvP match with cross-healing, there is nothing I can do to help you understand this.
This is one of those areas where being PvE focused and only dabbling in PvP really can't teach you the value of SNB.
Join some Tyler Durden matches, they are fairly organized and while the team comp tends to be random enough matches should start to demonstrate the power of SNB.
Maybe I don't but I do know how powerful it is in PvP, I have seen invincible ships crumble at a subnuc and others laugh it off as they carry science team and don't go buff crazy. I also know how funny it is when a scrambled person subnucs their own team and that (especially if you're playing by the 2 sci rule) you can essentially block someone daring to use it for a long time through perception, scrambles, placates and disable.
It's just that a lot of forum users tootle that it counters everything, in your own example of an alpha strike you can do the alpha strike before the next subnuc comes along. So while it ruins your day once, it doesn't again, this is why it's a 3 min cooldown not a 2 min cooldown. You can even use your Omega and CRF combo again 2-3 more times before the next subnuc comes up.
There are many ways to stop someone using a subnuc on your alpha if only to use scramble sensors on those science, maybe even jam sensors as you won't be shooting at them.
Personally it's useless to me, there's only 1 NPC you use it on and even then NPCs obey their own laws on the game. But the way you describe it you would think it had a 30s CD and was as spammable as any tactical ability and had absolutely no counter but it has at least 6 that I can think of.
And that's why there need to be downsides to AoE Debuffs that can be spammed by multiple ships in conjunction with other AoE control powers that can wreak havoc on the opposing team's ability to maneuver and counter your team.
So that was the point of my statement, that Sci abilites are not the only ones that can be "countered" so easily.
Be tired of hearing it then, because it's the truth.
There is no single greater power or more useful power to any premade PvP team than Subnuc.
It is the ultimate trump card, it is stronger than any other Career power and can strip all of them and every other buff at once.
Until you actually play in an organized PvP match with cross-healing, there is nothing I can do to help you understand this.
This is one of those areas where being PvE focused and only dabbling in PvP really can't teach you the value of SNB.
Join some Tyler Durden matches, they are fairly organized and while the team comp tends to be random enough matches should start to demonstrate the power of SNB.
As someone who did quite some pvp with premades before f2p, i know what snb can do, but it is not the sure deathcall like you picture it. With enough support of your team you can survive it. So yeah it is strong, but it is not the almighty ability you make it sound like. And as bpharma already mentioned it has a 2 min cooldown, and 2 minutes can be a long time, which you know for sure by yourselve.
The thing with spamming controll skills like grav well and tykens is, that you can do the same with the coutners or all other abilities.
So yeah, ok lets say you drop a tykens and someone uses eject warpplasma to hold you in it, then you just have to pop hazard emitters or get one from a teammate, problem solved.
If you use grav well or tractor beam instead to keep a target there, then you use apo, or polarized hull, or evasive, or deuterium surplus. And if those are on cd, well then you have bad luck, but that is a problem you have with all skills.
The real problem is, that there is more or less nothing else then snb that can reduce your shield resists. The resistence debuff you get with target subs is not really big(partly thanks to power insulators), except if the shields went off completely and the snb doff with the 1% chance or the proc from the jemhadar set doesn?t count cause it is random.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
It's just that a lot of forum users tootle that it counters everything, in your own example of an alpha strike you can do the alpha strike before the next subnuc comes along. So while it ruins your day once, it doesn't again
MACO 2 Piece + Elite Deflector = SNB on 1min 44s Cycle
+
Rotate which SCI will SNB any particular Escort (usually 3 Scis, but even just 2 Scis can do this)
=
1 Escort fully neutralized
Also as I said earlier, you don't always need SNB either.
Hard Spec VM & Scrambles are both very effective means of controlling escorts.
There are many ways to stop someone using a subnuc on your alpha if only to use scramble sensors on those science, maybe even jam sensors as you won't be shooting at them.
The ones who carry SNB, are usually the ones who carry ST - which is the cleanse for SS - so they can instant cleanse themselves.
MACO 2 Piece + Elite Deflector = SNB on 1min 44s Cycle
+
Rotate which SCI will SNB any particular Escort (usually 3 Scis, but even just 2 Scis can do this)
=
1 Escort fully neutralized
Also as I said earlier, you don't always need SNB either.
Hard Spec VM & Scrambles are both very effective means of controlling escorts.
Only if you let the ones who carry it more or less alone, if you build presure on then they might be busy defending themselves.
No, it is a 2 minute cooldown. I thought you read my guide, don't you play a Sci?
See what PvE does to a man!!! :P
yeah, you are right on that one. But to be fair, in pve you rarely need snb...
Means very little, the counters to this are simply TT, ES, TSS, ST, (you don't need all of them).
Only if you haven?t used them.
The ones who carry SNB, are usually the ones who carry ST - which is the cleanse for SS - so they can instant cleanse themselves.
So what? You can use a sci team to clear snb asap. So if you have add buffs left oyu can use them to buff up again or get some buffs from oyur teammates.
And i am pretty sure things like extend shields are not cleared by snb, since they come from another source...
And it is funny how such threads often become a snb discussion, as soon as ppl seems to running out of reasonable arguments for their positon on the original toppic.
Not to mention that you start mixing up boff abilities and captain abilities again. Which you have to view seperately, since every career can fly every ship class and has access to all boff skills.
But that just as a sidenote...
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
So what? You can use a sci team to clear snb asap. So if you have add buffs left oyu can use them to buff up again or get some buffs from oyur teammates.
The important part of SNB is the fact you just stripped your target bareof all their mitigation buffs, escapes and offensive boosts giving your team a window of opportunity to kill them.
The CD reduction is just a kick in the jewels after being knocked down.
And it is funny how such threads often become a snb discussion, as soon as ppl seems to running out of reasonable arguments for their positon on the original toppic.
I was answering BP on this, feel free to complain to khayuung.
Which means you are forcing to use ppl using ther heals up, which is quite a good thing also.
The important part of SNB is the fact you just stripped your target bareof all their mitigation buffs, escapes and offensive boosts giving your team a window of opportunity to kill them.
The CD reduction is just a kick in the jewels after being knocked down.
You mean the cooldown increase on the target, or not? And yeah, it gives you the opportunity, to kill a ship, doesn?t mean it is a kill for sure.
Yes, that's why we PSW ES off first.
Let me know if there are any other basic premade tactics you'd like to learn about, I'm always happy to help others get into organized PvP.
Nice of you, but i know those things already, including unsing psw on someone who provides extend shields. Which is then more or less a counter to it, like many other skills have counters.
So you need to time it right, like everything in pvp to get your opportunity to get a kill. And if you are able to do it and the other team fails to counter, you deserve to get the kill.
I was answering BP on this, feel free to complain to khayuung.
[/QUOTE]
That was more or less a generall statement, that just fitted there, not that i ever expect a change. It is just one of those topics that pop up more or less once a month, as seperate ".... is op"(<- fill in your favourite topic here) or in a thread that went sideways on it. :rolleyes:
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
Comments
Problem is that you normally don?t need a dedicated healer or tank in pve. Since the ships are tough enough, even if you go full offense. Basically the pve content didn?t keep up with the ships. They need more sustained dmg and a bit less spike.
Best example for that is the Klingon Scoutforce Fleetaction. When you have to kill the crusiers you do it so fast that you basically ahve to wait most the time until they respawn.
Same with the elite stfs (at least the ones i play), normally you should only be able to get the optionals done when the group really does a perfect job, not only an average one.
@ussultimatum:
Regarding pvp:
I know i might repeat myself, but when you have a commander ability (no matter which class) with a high cooldown, that you can counter by clicking at 1 skill, the ability should really have a heavy effect on the target, when you are skilled in it.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
You mean like when you can pop APA + APO 3 + CRF 2 and the target RSPs with 1 skill and nullifies all of that? Just to tally for you, that's actually 2 skills and a captain ability all nullified by one power.
Or when you pop APA + APO 3 + CRF 2 and get hit with SS 3 for 30s ruining your entire alpha?
Or let's say you have none of that and just use CRF 3 which can pretty much be countered with just having a good build with high resistances, and maybe popping Tac team?
Do you mean like that?
Sorry, but Sci CMD abilities aren't the only ones that can be "1 skill" countered.
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I didn?t say anything else. I just said it should really have an effect on the target. And atm a stationary drain just don?t has that impact, cause it is way to easy to get away from it.
Not to mention the nice resistence you get when you skill into power insulators, which is something you can?t do that way against a raw dmg skill.
Wold be the same if i could skill in shield systems and get a 50% resistence agains dmg out of it as a passive.
Sure you can get high shield resistences also, but you have to use boff abilities for it. Would be nice if it would be the same with the resistence to drains.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
Crazy thought:
Give Target Subsystem powers a buff cleanse of the accompanying powerset? IE: TS:W cleanses X weapon (CRF/CSV, THY/TS, FAW/BO +/- EPtW) buffs. TS:S cleanses X shield buffs (ES, EPtS, TSS, RSP), etc.
There are 1 click (lets call it 1 ability counters) to a lot of things or at least mitigation for a reason. It's so you can't just stack up on the quite frankly ludicrous levels of damage and roflpwn everyone without them even standing a chance. That and so you can have at least 1 counter to be ganked even if it is only for 8s.
I mean can you seriously tell me that anyone stands a chance at resisting even 1 decent alpha strike without tactical team or RSP or some other mitigation like Jam sensor etc? Shield distribution is not very good in this game and it hasn't kept up with the silly numbers of damage players put out. Fix that and you might see less TT spam, people might only choose 1-2 "lolz, goodbye alpha" abilities.
Hell with DEM getting thrust into the spotlight with the EptW changes even that's a way to bypass RSP and a fair number or mitigation abilities and frankly lethal to a science ships and escorts if you can pin them down or just keep hitting them.
Subnuc, I'm tired of hearing about this 1 ability as being so OP it breaks everything and mitigates everything. Really I'm just getting sick of this subnuc counters this, subnuc counters that as if it's some kind of uber spammable tactical ability.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
And that's why there need to be downsides to AoE Debuffs that can be spammed by multiple ships in conjunction with other AoE control powers that can wreak havoc on the opposing team's ability to maneuver and counter your team.
So that was the point of my statement, that Sci abilites are not the only ones that can be "countered" so easily.
Be tired of hearing it then, because it's the truth.
There is no single greater power or more useful power to any premade PvP team than Subnuc.
It is the ultimate trump card, it is stronger than any other Career power and can strip all of them and every other buff at once.
Until you actually play in an organized PvP match with cross-healing, there is nothing I can do to help you understand this.
This is one of those areas where being PvE focused and only dabbling in PvP really can't teach you the value of SNB.
Join some Tyler Durden matches, they are fairly organized and while the team comp tends to be random enough matches should start to demonstrate the power of SNB.
It's just that a lot of forum users tootle that it counters everything, in your own example of an alpha strike you can do the alpha strike before the next subnuc comes along. So while it ruins your day once, it doesn't again, this is why it's a 3 min cooldown not a 2 min cooldown. You can even use your Omega and CRF combo again 2-3 more times before the next subnuc comes up.
There are many ways to stop someone using a subnuc on your alpha if only to use scramble sensors on those science, maybe even jam sensors as you won't be shooting at them.
Personally it's useless to me, there's only 1 NPC you use it on and even then NPCs obey their own laws on the game. But the way you describe it you would think it had a 30s CD and was as spammable as any tactical ability and had absolutely no counter but it has at least 6 that I can think of.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
As someone who did quite some pvp with premades before f2p, i know what snb can do, but it is not the sure deathcall like you picture it. With enough support of your team you can survive it. So yeah it is strong, but it is not the almighty ability you make it sound like. And as bpharma already mentioned it has a 2 min cooldown, and 2 minutes can be a long time, which you know for sure by yourselve.
The thing with spamming controll skills like grav well and tykens is, that you can do the same with the coutners or all other abilities.
So yeah, ok lets say you drop a tykens and someone uses eject warpplasma to hold you in it, then you just have to pop hazard emitters or get one from a teammate, problem solved.
If you use grav well or tractor beam instead to keep a target there, then you use apo, or polarized hull, or evasive, or deuterium surplus. And if those are on cd, well then you have bad luck, but that is a problem you have with all skills.
The real problem is, that there is more or less nothing else then snb that can reduce your shield resists. The resistence debuff you get with target subs is not really big(partly thanks to power insulators), except if the shields went off completely and the snb doff with the 1% chance or the proc from the jemhadar set doesn?t count cause it is random.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
MACO 2 Piece + Elite Deflector = SNB on 1min 44s Cycle
+
Rotate which SCI will SNB any particular Escort (usually 3 Scis, but even just 2 Scis can do this)
=
1 Escort fully neutralized
Also as I said earlier, you don't always need SNB either.
Hard Spec VM & Scrambles are both very effective means of controlling escorts.
No, it is a 2 minute cooldown. I thought you read my guide, don't you play a Sci?
See what PvE does to a man!!! :P
Means very little, the counters to this are simply TT, ES, TSS, ST, (you don't need all of them).
The ones who carry SNB, are usually the ones who carry ST - which is the cleanse for SS - so they can instant cleanse themselves.
Only if you let the ones who carry it more or less alone, if you build presure on then they might be busy defending themselves.
yeah, you are right on that one. But to be fair, in pve you rarely need snb...
Only if you haven?t used them.
So what? You can use a sci team to clear snb asap. So if you have add buffs left oyu can use them to buff up again or get some buffs from oyur teammates.
And i am pretty sure things like extend shields are not cleared by snb, since they come from another source...
And it is funny how such threads often become a snb discussion, as soon as ppl seems to running out of reasonable arguments for their positon on the original toppic.
Not to mention that you start mixing up boff abilities and captain abilities again. Which you have to view seperately, since every career can fly every ship class and has access to all boff skills.
But that just as a sidenote...
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
That's why we cross-heal.
The important part of SNB is the fact you just stripped your target bare of all their mitigation buffs, escapes and offensive boosts giving your team a window of opportunity to kill them.
The CD reduction is just a kick in the jewels after being knocked down.
Yes, that's why we PSW ES off first.
Let me know if there are any other basic premade tactics you'd like to learn about, I'm always happy to help others get into organized PvP.
I was answering BP on this, feel free to complain to khayuung.
Which means you are forcing to use ppl using ther heals up, which is quite a good thing also.
You mean the cooldown increase on the target, or not? And yeah, it gives you the opportunity, to kill a ship, doesn?t mean it is a kill for sure.
Nice of you, but i know those things already, including unsing psw on someone who provides extend shields. Which is then more or less a counter to it, like many other skills have counters.
So you need to time it right, like everything in pvp to get your opportunity to get a kill. And if you are able to do it and the other team fails to counter, you deserve to get the kill.
[/QUOTE]
That was more or less a generall statement, that just fitted there, not that i ever expect a change. It is just one of those topics that pop up more or less once a month, as seperate ".... is op"(<- fill in your favourite topic here) or in a thread that went sideways on it. :rolleyes:
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys