Status of Engineers in STO now?

mreeves7a · October 2013

rant/

So, with Comm Arrays and Marion trivializing Engineers in space, what purpose do they serve now? None, as far as I can tell. Comm Arrays, Marion, Mogai 2-piece all replace Nadion Inversion. Rotate Shield Frequency is nearly useless as shield damage resist cap is easy enough to reach with EPtS and gear. EPS Power Transfer is a pale shadow of a spec'd Energy Siphon. Without any resists, Miracle Worker is laughable. Engineering Fleet is the only 'fleet' power that is hit so hard by diminishing returns...

So, what good is an engineer now? Tacs do more damage, Scis do better damage mitigation... It seems to me that, whether designed that way or not, engineers are now the joke class. To lose to an engineer now is an insult, an embarrassment. And this state of being is wrong. Every class of captain should have powers that you miss while playing another career.

To be blunt, the engineering captain needs to be taken back to the drawing board and redesigned.

/end rant

khayuung · October 2013

Engineers self-heal like crazy and top Fleet Actions due to the incredible weightage given to healing.

And they pretty much have the coolest ground toys.

tinkerstorm · October 2013

Why rant? Just play a tactical. It's the logical thing to do as not one single dev at Cryptic has ever played anything else.

rmy1081 · October 2013

they're awesome on the ground.

In space....IDK...the other 2 classes can do it mostly better...
Miracle Worker is great, but I rarely ever need use it.

It's a shame.

aarons9 · October 2013

rmy1081 wrote: »

they're awesome on the ground.

In space....IDK...the other 2 classes can do it mostly better...
Miracle Worker is great, but I rarely ever need use it.

It's a shame.

define mostly better..
in my testing,

engineers dont die as much.
they have miracle worker, plus the trait that makes it work 2 times in a row. if you are fast on the buttons you can take a ton of damage.

put aux2bat plus ep2w with the 3 technicians in a 5 beam boat with BFAW and 1 torp with 60k hull and a hangar or two and you will out dps 80% of the player base.

khayuung · October 2013

rmy1081 wrote: »

they're awesome on the ground.

In space....IDK...the other 2 classes can do it mostly better...
Miracle Worker is great, but I rarely ever need use it.

It's a shame.

I use MW and GUF reset very often in pug CCEs.

The class is a perfect complement to the Kar'fi:
-- Not enough eng to use DEMarion but I can still Nadion on demand.
-- Not enough power so EPS Transfer is used on CD together with a science alpha strike. This means a GW3 clump followed by TS3 and CSV1.
-- After EPS wears off, power levels are sustained by rotating ES2 and Breen Energy Siphon.
-- LEECH
-- MW and RSF get rotated, and because the CE punches out chunks of hull, I get to reset MW on cooldown.
-- All that healing and dps gives me top spot in FAs even with crappy gear.

She also does quite well in a Fleet Torkie for pvp healing.

tinkerstorm · October 2013

aarons9 wrote: »

put aux2bat plus ep2w with the 3 technicians in a 5 beam boat with BFAW and 1 torp with 60k hull and a hangar or two and you will out dps 80% of the player base.

Put a tactical in that boat

sunfrancks · October 2013

Still like my Eng main in her Escorts

ursusmorologus · October 2013

Engi is best at solo play.

There's not a lot of solo content at end-game.

trekkerchick · October 2013

I will never understand the mindset where it's needed to strangulate a captain Career into a ship Class because of a tiny trickle of 2~5 minute long situational cooldown powers.
Sure, they can take advantage of a ship Class with them. Every 2~5 minutes. But in the rest of that time, you're left alone and cold with only your BOffs for company like every other captain Career in any other ship Class.

khayuung · October 2013

tinkerstorm wrote: »

Put a tactical in that boat

Yes, but that's also not using the Engineer to play to their strengths. They excel in ships that have little-no self-healing, or require power to all sorts of subsystems at once.

Ironically, that means Engineers actually perform poorly in Cruisers, but do better in escorts and best in control-oriented Science Vessels and full carriers!

Likewise, a Tac is actually less optimal in an escort, but better in a BFAW cruiser.

And a sci flying a standard heal cruiser, a tricked out escort, or a dreadnought carrier does better, now even better with cruiser commands.

rmy1081 · October 2013

My issue is, before I could grab agro with my engineer in her star cruiser and keep the party alive by keeping me alive. Now, things die to fast to even grab agro, and with embassy consoles, borg engine, borg deflector and reputation, it's super easy to get heals. I barely take meaningful damage in my tac escorts now. That's the shame. Engineers were designed to be tanks, but tanking isn't needed as much anymore. Maybe if they added another difficulty level, engineers could be useful again.

khayuung · October 2013

rmy1081 wrote: »

My issue is, before I could grab agro with my engineer in her star cruiser and keep the party alive by keeping me alive. Now, things die to fast to even grab agro, and with embassy consoles, borg engine, borg deflector and reputation, it's super easy to get heals. I barely take meaningful damage in my tac escorts now. That's the shame. Engineers were designed to be tanks, but tanking isn't needed as much anymore. Maybe if they added another difficulty level, engineers could be useful again.

Have you tried CCE? I haven't managed to tank it as well as an eng in anything vs myself in a cruiser.

erei1 · October 2013

First : cruisers=/=engineer.
Second :

rmy1081 wrote: »

they're awesome on the ground.

In space....IDK...the other 2 classes can do it mostly better...
Miracle Worker is great, but I rarely ever need use it.

It's a shame.

Strictly talking to powers, as ships are a different thing.
RSP is not bad, but it's not really good either. EptS is better, and everyone can use it.
Nadion and EPS are not really impressive. They are not really good to.
Miracle worker is good, and the trait make it better.

Just compare to the sci or the tac. The tac have the awesome Fomm or Ap:A, the sci sensor scan or photonic fleet, or even SNB. Powers that are really good, and something you might miss when you play another class.
Do I miss eng powers when I play sci or tac ? No.

I know space is my eng weaknesses, but I enjoy them so much on the ground...

taitie12 · October 2013

i just started my eng toon i dont mind it perfer my tac thou

rmy1081 · October 2013

khayuung wrote: »

Have you tried CCE? I haven't managed to tank it as well as an eng in anything vs myself in a cruiser.

I do CCE on all of my 9 characters. Even fresh 50 ones. All you need is Resiliant [AP] shields and some heals.

khayuung · October 2013

rmy1081 wrote: »

I do CCE on all of my 9 characters. Even fresh 50 ones. All you need is Resiliant [AP] shields and some heals.

Bummer! Should've kept that one which dropped. :P

tinkerstorm · October 2013

khayuung wrote: »

Yes, but that's also not using the Engineer to play to their strengths. They excel in ships that have little-no self-healing, or require power to all sorts of subsystems at once.

Ironically, that means Engineers actually perform poorly in Cruisers, but do better in escorts and best in control-oriented Science Vessels and full carriers!

Likewise, a Tac is actually less optimal in an escort, but better in a BFAW cruiser.

And a sci flying a standard heal cruiser, a tricked out escort, or a dreadnought carrier does better, now even better with cruiser commands.

The only captain space power I find useful is AP Alpha. All the others are meh regardless of the ship type.

Now, put all captain specific powers on cooldowns no longer than 30 seconds, maybe even 15 seconds, and that would make captain profession a serious consideration. But for any of that to matter, the game's content would need a serious revamp. Oh, and escorts would actually have to be changed into true glass cannons, rather than being practically-a-cruiser-anyway.

rezking · October 2013

Engineering is a selfish career.
You can survive alot of abuse, but to what end?
My most horrid experience in ESTF's involves 4 Eng's and me...the lone KDF Tac.
It must have taken us an hour to finally end Khitomer.
They could do next to no damage.
It's hard to believe the Vor'cha is an Eng ship because IT BRINGS THE PAIN with my Tac.

If I ever warp into another 4 Eng PUG I'm taking the leaver penalty.
Cryptic, nerf Eng self-healing voodoo so they can concentrate on contributing to the Team.

rmy1081 · October 2013

khayuung wrote: »

Bummer! Should've kept that one which dropped. :P

yeah you know what's funny ( and a little off topic so sorry); my weaker characters score better than my stronger ones, because they take more damage lol

I think engineer's space captain powers need a look at. With leech and a few consoles I can mostly max out all of my power levels so EPS isn't needed much anymore. With marion, over-capping, and new aura, NI isn't too useful anymore either. Engineering fleet has never been strong enough to be useful either. Most of engineering fleet's bonuses gets soaked up in diminishing returns or just isn't strong enough to be noticed.

I still play my engineering characters. I'm a huge Geordi and Scotty fan. I just wish engineers were more useful than staying alive longer.

trekkerchick · October 2013

trekkerchick wrote: »

I will never understand the mindset where it's needed to strangulate a captain Career into a ship Class because of a tiny trickle of 2~5 minute long situational cooldown powers.
Sure, they can take advantage of a ship Class with them. Every 2~5 minutes. But in the rest of that time, you're left alone and cold with only your BOffs for company like every other captain Career in any other ship Class.

rezking wrote: »

Engineering is a selfish career.
You can survive alot of abuse, but to what end?
My most horrid experience in ESTF's involves 4 Eng's and me...the lone KDF Tac.
It must have taken us an hour to finally end Khitomer.
They could do next to no damage.
It's hard to believe the Vor'cha is an Eng ship because IT BRINGS THE PAIN with my Tac.

If I ever warp into another 4 Eng PUG I'm taking the leaver penalty.
Cryptic, nerf Eng self-healing voodoo so they can concentrate on contributing to the Team.

See what I mean...?
You got four poor or inexperienced players that happened to be Engineers in Cruisers. It could have been just as bad if they were Tac or Sci.
APA, TR and GDF won't make or break a drawn out engagement. And the * Fleet powers are team wide, not individual.

khayuung · October 2013

Probably explains why my eng scores so well. Takes a hit, heals back, takes another hit, MW, stack resistance buffs, weather the storm, AP wave, MW reset, MW heal, shields decrease, TSS, shields drop, RSF...

All while the borg 2pc is ticking away.

And I'm CSVing whatever I just GW'd.

And I have Ferjals.

My tac karfi only beats the eng karfi when the former doesn't die randomly from Tholian abuse.

lter · October 2013

The status of the engineers is the same. Most useless class in space. What have changed in any case is the status of the cruisers, still better for tac or scies that have better captain abilities.

mirrorshatner · October 2013

I tried playing an engineer character but because the skills are based around survivability it takes longer to kill things.
I find it odd though that tactical class has a skill to reduce cooldowns on Bridge Officer tactical skills, but the other classes don't.

I think it would be good if the Science and Engineering classes had an identical skill that reduced the cooldowns of their class's Bridge Officers.

khayuung · October 2013

mirrorshatner wrote: »

I tried playing an engineer character but because the skills are based around survivability it takes longer to kill things.
I find it odd though that tactical class has a skill to reduce cooldowns on Bridge Officer tactical skills, but the other classes don't.

I think it would be good if the Science and Engineering classes had an identical skill that reduced the cooldowns of their class's Bridge Officers.

Its in different places. Sci have boff power Photonic Officer, and Eng have Aux2batt + technicians.

Only Tacs have it as a captain power, and because of that, is the worst option of them all because of the long cooldown.

phoenicius · October 2013

lter wrote: »

The status of the engineers is the same. Most useless class in space. What have changed in any case is the status of the cruisers, still better for tac or scies that have better captain abilities.

i really don't get how can people say eng is useless... or even most useless lol.

if anything eng is the best class due to being good in anything.

you want to do damage? good you can.

you want to tank? you can too.

you want to become a healboat? sure you can.

meanwhile tac can only do damage, and damage only(which is enough in a DPS centric game to be honest)

and sci is the actual useless class, except in PvP where you job is annoying people.

lter · October 2013

phoenicius wrote: »

i really don't get how can people say eng is useless... or even most useless lol.

if anything eng is the best class due to being good in anything.

you want to do damage? good you can.

you want to tank? you can too.

you want to become a healboat? sure you can.

meanwhile tac can only do damage, and damage only(which is enough in a DPS centric game to be honest)

and sci is the actual useless class, except in PvP where you job is annoying people.

Well yes, I usually speak for PVP. I always spec and think in my goals with PVP in mind, cause then usually you can pass through the PVE missions with good results, since in this game there's no distinction of PVP/PVE gear or so.

I don't see the utility in skills like miracle worker or rotate shield frequency when becoming an invulnerable tank is so easy in this game with just the proper equipment and boffs abilities. EPS is like a super battery which is meh, and nadion inversion...

All you say an engie can do (dps, healboat, etc.) all other classes can do that too, but other classes have the extra of more usefull captain skills. Tac have a set of all-useful skills. Scies have basically two great ones, scan and subnuke (that last one, true, certainly not as useful in pve due to npcs barely using skills, but vital in pvp), and scattering field that is *good*, and now more synergic in cruisers precisely with these auras.

yreodred · October 2013

In my experience, the carrer of a character is only secondary unless you are planning on doing PvP on a professional level IMO.

But for PvE purposes, just choose what suits to your desire and your playstyle.
for example i have played a tactical character for more than two years. Lately i have choosen to play a Engineer, Tactical and one Science character equaly.
I can say that althrough your carrer specific Captain powers can be helpful, they serve best in synergy with your choosen BOFF powers.
So i think the most important thing is your ships BOFF layout.

As i said i have only limited experience in PvP, so don't pin me down on it.

khayuung · October 2013

yreodred wrote: »

In my experience, the carrer of a character is only secondary unless you are planning on doing PvP on a professional level IMO.

But for PvE purposes, just choose what suits to your desire and your playstyle.
for example i have played a tactical character for more than two years. Lately i have choosen to play a Engineer, Tactical and one Science character equaly.
I can say that althrough your carrer specific Captain powers can be helpful, they serve best in synergy with your choosen BOFF powers.
So i think the most important thing is your ships BOFF layout.

As i said i have only limited experience in PvP, so don't pin me down on it.

I agree. Most of the conceptualized notions about what works and what doesn't talks about the really really high endgame. The only thing that requires that much efficiency as far as I know, is PVP.

PVE is totally different. Rainbows can do solo content, lame ducks can be carried in normal FAs.

It is the elite STFs and elite CC where players with 30+ injuries are absolutely useless, no matter what career. There are a lot of them, they tend to fly cruisers, and they are terrible no matter what career they are.

lter · October 2013

I agree in PVE doesnt matter at all your career so an Engy is as good as any other since its more important your ship/build/gear and that's not class-locked buuut, in any mmo people usually wants the best as possible, and some people may even want to try out pvp once in a while, even if they never do it, and in any mmo or game with classes you should have good options to choice looking at all alternatives, currently engie is not an option at the same level as tac primarly and secondly, scies. That's still wrong with the game imo.

stofsk · October 2013

I find my engineer performs admirably in an aux2batt Sovvie-R. I kinda wish my tac in his Defiant-R could tank half as well while doing comparable damage.

Status of Engineers in STO now?

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