sorry, but i disagree with you on the scimitar.....it had fighters as part of its complement...so it makes sense to have at least one hanger bay on it.....though too bad we cant truly mimic it in terms of weapons (as i dont have the tal shiar stuff). as for a hanger bay adde on to the LARGEST ships like the oddy and bort, if it was limited to only the shuttles it would be fine imo..though there arent really any shuttles for the bort the klingons are known for damage and destruction, so it makes sense to have fighters for them.
The oddy and bort already have frigate pets, they just dont have a hangar bay for maintaining them. I wouldnt mind if every ship had a single shuttle pet. For the oddy and bortas, they should get a hangar bay for their console pet frigates as well.
As to the scim having fighters, it doesnt have fighters it has frigates. The pets it got were stupidly unecessarily powerful. That is what has to be countered/fixed.
^^ I've asked myself the same question. That's why so many people want these universal consoles to go in the device slot because they want to pile them on their ships (instead of using up a console slot or weapon slot).
The reason I say give the cruisers a hangar is if you really think about it...(don't quote me on these crew capacities) how can a Heavy Escort Carrier have a crew of 300 and it gets a hangar but a Odyssey with a crew of 2,500 doesn't? How does my Vesta with a crew of 750 have a hangar, but a Star Cruiser has a crew of 1,000 and it doesn't?
But that's just my two cents.
What does crew have to do with ships being built or not being built with hangers?
Ah, you mean the Drone ship on the Scimitar that happens to be a Frigate?
There are no Frigates on Fed side outside the Mesh Wavers and Scimitars but those are locked so there isnt a Frigate to the Atrox, also Frigates are LOCKED to their ships ...
Fer'Jai? Kar'Fi, Bird-of-Prey? Vo'Quv, Mesh Weaver? Recluse, JHAS? JHDC ... and the already mentioned Drone Ship on the Scimitar.
So were exactly is any difference? Its not possible to use Mesh Weavers on a Vo'Quv even if you have both because Frigates are LOCKED to a specific Carrier.
Except ... what is a fighter? We have Frigates that are 1 per launch, 2 total per hangar ... now fighters are 3 per launch, 6 per hangar BUT we have 2 per launch, 4 per hangar that are Delta Flyer, Marauding Force, Shield Repair Units, Tachyon Drones as examples (there are more, I likely just typed about half of the existing ones) so basically you are not adding fighters, you are adding a new type of thing you have no clue what is about dont you?
You want for me to put their actual strength? I dont have a Bortas but I can post the Odyssey and the Drone ship.
Aquarius - 24,810
Drone Ship - 31,013
The issue is not we have no control, its the fact that a blue Drona Hangar Frigate have more hull that a console deployed pet.
But you dont want that, you want a hangar so you can spew 6 Elite Scorpions.
I know damn well they are different, I also know as far hangars are set there are 3 groups, not 2 and also know what you want, that is more pet spam.
Yes, they want to have their cake and eat it too ... in fact they want to have those consoles AND keep the console they got when those were turned into consoles as they were originally build-in abilities.
Because of how they were build, crew size is irrelevent unless we are talking about a Defiant with a hangar but lets take the HEC, the crew is 200 but the Heavy Escort crew is 100, it DOUBLED the crew of the Akira is actually listed on the DS9 tech manual as having a crew of 500 (well accommodations for 500 officers and crew), even if we want to flush that down the toilet for being overall silly that still listed.
Regardless fact is the HEC doubled the crew over its base ship, the Vesta 750 crew is well over TWO TIMES the amount of the Intrepid Class thats 200, in fact the HMS Ocean thats a real ship have a crew of 465 and I picked it up because its a Amphibious assault ship that carriers up to 18 helicopters:, the Vesta is a large ship at 672 meters but the HMS Ocean is 203 meters in size, now guess whats Voyager size? 344 meters with a crew of 141 when it departed DS9.
So let me see ... real world ship that is smaller that Voyager, crew of 465 and voyager that have a crew of 141 and its bigger.
On the other hand if Voyager can funtion with 141 then the HEC certainly can with 200 ... why? because the Akira had a length of 464 meters, its SHORTER that Voyager and the large crew accommodations on DS9TM does not necessary means its correct OR actually required for the ship to function, it might need over less that crew.
So what we learn ... Star Trek crew math is not something you can use as a defense for anything, the Galaxy class had a crew of 1,000 with a possible maximum of 3,000 (this are actually points for the 200 crew Akira) were the Soverign class apparently had a crew of 855 so at this point I can LAUGH AT IT because Voyager: 344 meters, 141 crew /Enterprise-E: 685 meters, 855 crew/ Galaxy: 642 meters, 1000 crew.
Funny numbers arent they? sure you are going to bring size/length that is true but if you admit 140 people can handle Voyager just fine then 200 people can handle a flight deck Akira just fine and all you are trying to do is making a excuse to shove a hangar in a Cruiser.
You really have to learn to relax or it makes you sound like you have no idea what you are talking about.
We are discussing something and you take an emotional reaction to it. It is rather kinda silly.
All I am saying is for larger ships it makes sense to add a hanger bay and end up a sorta flight deck cruiser.
Scimitar is another issue, yes. It already has the option of a frigate. I don't think I have ever seen anyone use the fighter over the drone ship.
With the current mechanic of hanger pets, fighter aren't as good as frigates. Fighters die and need to respawn at 0 stars. It takes a lot to hurt an elite frigate.
But of course I also don't understand why not all ships have tractor beams either.
But that is just me.
On the other hand if Voyager can funtion with 141 then the HEC certainly can with 200 ... why? because the Akira had a length of 464 meters, its SHORTER that Voyager and the large crew accommodations on DS9TM does not necessary means its correct OR actually required for the ship to function, it might need over less that crew.
So what we learn ... Star Trek crew math is not something you can use as a defense for anything, the Galaxy class had a crew of 1,000 with a possible maximum of 3,000 (this are actually points for the 200 crew Akira) were the Soverign class apparently had a crew of 855 so at this point I can LAUGH AT IT because Voyager: 344 meters, 141 crew /Enterprise-E: 685 meters, 855 crew/ Galaxy: 642 meters, 1000 crew.
Funny numbers arent they? sure you are going to bring size/length that is true but if you admit 140 people can handle Voyager just fine then 200 people can handle a flight deck Akira just fine and all you are trying to do is making a excuse to shove a hangar in a Cruiser.
Wow, I've been schooled. I didn't know that their was this wealth of information. None the less, to continue the conversation...
Will their be an upgrade to the hangar pets? Because if they were to add one to the odyssey / Bortas'qu it would be nice if the hangar pets were immune to warp core breaches, it pisses me off that I keep my pets alive long enough in a fight (while fighting myself) only to have them reach 5 star and then get blown to pieces.
One day Cryptic will be free from their Perfect World overlord. Until that day comes, they will continue to pamper the whales of this game, and ignore everyone that isn't a whale.
The Oddy and Bort just need their Console turned INTO a hangar.
So the console itself functions like a hangar, 60- whatever second CD able to support two frigates at any given time, hangar UI and AI (that should work for chevron and saucer sep) and thats about it. Keep the oddy and bort ocked into the aquarius and such but let the physical console function like a hangar.
best of both worlds. It stays locked onto the respective ship, and you cant be running around with 6 elite scorpions.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I say no to hanger bay for bortas and oddy. I Do however say they should get a buff to there tactical pets make them the best frigate pets in the game, along with carrier controls with them. Since both ships only get one frigate/escort/bop.
Turn off the dumb lock out mechanic let oddy use all 3 abilities at once they are mostly lack luster anyways, and have longer cool downs then hanger pets and are arguably worse.
Buff both pets shields and hull hp, give aquaris and bortas pet tact team, with all 3 consoles hy 1 and rapid cannon 2 or 3.
Give the oddy saucer the ability to choose saucer or main section.
Saucer mode would gain the weapon bonus's like +5 weapons +5 to engines -10 shields and higher turn rate say 16 or 15 , but would have lower shield mod 1.0 and reduced hull. <- basically destroyer mode. Main hull gains HY 3 and with all 3 consoles attack pattern beta.
Main hull mode +5 engines +5 aux -10 weapons and the slight turn bonus, slightly reduced hull. <- basically support/science mode. Saucer gets transfer shields or science team and with all 3 consoles GW.
The Flagships of each race should be equals against against each other
Right now its not the case
Go Rom or go home
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That being said, in Star Trek on hundreds of occasions you see ship warfare and shuttle warfare and ship/shuttle warfare. I can pretty much bet that there was more shuttle fights than cap ship fights.
People who say there shouldn't be shuttle fighting in Star Trek seems to have forgotten it
That's not Star Trek. That's Star Wars Galactica Trek.
Science is for everyone. Why do you choose not to learn?
That's not Star Trek. That's Star Wars Galactica Trek.
So are you saying Star Trek tng, voyager, and ds9 where they had ship/shuttle fighting isn't real trek or are you saying that it didn't happen over and over again on those shows?
Because of how they were build, crew size is irrelevent unless we are talking about a Defiant with a hangar but lets take the HEC, the crew is 200 but the Heavy Escort crew is 100, it DOUBLED the crew of the Akira is actually listed on the DS9 tech manual as having a crew of 500 (well accommodations for 500 officers and crew), even if we want to flush that down the toilet for being overall silly that still listed.
Regardless fact is the HEC doubled the crew over its base ship, the Vesta 750 crew is well over TWO TIMES the amount of the Intrepid Class thats 200, in fact the HMS Ocean thats a real ship have a crew of 465 and I picked it up because its a Amphibious assault ship that carriers up to 18 helicopters:, the Vesta is a large ship at 672 meters but the HMS Ocean is 203 meters in size, now guess whats Voyager size? 344 meters with a crew of 141 when it departed DS9.
So let me see ... real world ship that is smaller that Voyager, crew of 465 and voyager that have a crew of 141 and its bigger.
On the other hand if Voyager can funtion with 141 then the HEC certainly can with 200 ... why? because the Akira had a length of 464 meters, its SHORTER that Voyager and the large crew accommodations on DS9TM does not necessary means its correct OR actually required for the ship to function, it might need over less that crew.
So what we learn ... Star Trek crew math is not something you can use as a defense for anything, the Galaxy class had a crew of 1,000 with a possible maximum of 3,000 (this are actually points for the 200 crew Akira) were the Soverign class apparently had a crew of 855 so at this point I can LAUGH AT IT because Voyager: 344 meters, 141 crew /Enterprise-E: 685 meters, 855 crew/ Galaxy: 642 meters, 1000 crew.
Funny numbers arent they? sure you are going to bring size/length that is true but if you admit 140 people can handle Voyager just fine then 200 people can handle a flight deck Akira just fine and all you are trying to do is making a excuse to shove a hangar in a Cruiser.
One point regarding crew on the Akira versus other ships: you're not factoring in the air wing crew requirement. An Akira is slated to carry 40+ combat craft with an additional 20+ auxiliary craft.
Manning those ships alone accounts for a minimum of 100 people. Add in the deck crew needed to maintain and repair those ships, and you've got at least another 100, likely more. That's 200+ crew needed for the air wing alone (personally I'd put it much closer to the 3-400 range based on the notion that you're going to need more than two people to fully maintain a combat craft at all times), before the ship itself is also manned.
In other words, the complement of 500 as stated by the DS9TM isn't at all outside the realm of reasonableness. STO's love of launching miniscule numbers of strike craft doesn't remotely correspond to what carrier ships are actually supposed to field, and is driven much more by gameplay and technical concerns.
Not to mention the crew mechanic in STO has absolutely no correlation with anything resembling source reference.
So are you saying Star Trek tng, voyager, and ds9 where they had ship/shuttle fighting isn't real trek or are you saying that it didn't happen over and over again on those shows?
Except there really wasn't much of it...when did Voyager or Enterprise ever launch shuttles to directly attack a ship?
The one time in DS9 I can recall where shuttles were actually helping in offense/defense was the first time the Dominion encountered the Federation...that didn't go well and the Runabouts only survived because the Founders wanted to sneak a Vorta spy on the station.
Except there really wasn't much of it...when did Voyager or Enterprise ever launch shuttles to directly attack a ship?
The one time in DS9 I can recall where shuttles were actually helping in offense/defense was the first time the Dominion encountered the Federation...that didn't go well and the Runabouts only survived because the Founders wanted to sneak a Vorta spy on the station.
The only reason why it didn't happen more often in tng was supposedly because it cost a lot in fx to have it in more often. Tng only did it in best of both worlds.
I think it was in season 5 of ds9 that they moved from models to cgi and in most fight afterwards you will see a shuttle somewhere in a large scale fight.
That moved in to voyager and it was like that all the time.
Except there really wasn't much of it...when did Voyager or Enterprise ever launch shuttles to directly attack a ship?
The one time in DS9 I can recall where shuttles were actually helping in offense/defense was the first time the Dominion encountered the Federation...that didn't go well and the Runabouts only survived because the Founders wanted to sneak a Vorta spy on the station.
I don't have a hanger on my ambassador but I use the consumable Scorpion fighters, works fine for me but maybe they should make more types of consumables like this.
I don't have a hanger on my ambassador but I use the consumable Scorpion fighters, works fine for me but maybe they should make more types of consumables like this.
That would be nice but could use a shorter cooldown and don't share cooldown with Fleet Support I & II and Nimbus Pirate Distress Call.
The Akira is not a carrier or rather, only one that stated the Akira was a carrier was Jaeger, DS9TM never mentioned anything about combat craft and speaking of crew the evacuation limit of the ship was listed as 4,500 ... yep, higher that a Galaxy class.
DS9TM is riddled with typos, copied and pasted sections and flat out errors (for example, the Saber is given an 100% identical entry to the Norway). It's useful as a guide. Not much else. Subsequent source items (most notably multiple RPG modules from at least three different companies, as well as later starship source books) included the carrier purpose. In fact, they're where the air wing complement numbers come from.
Collectively, source regarding the Akira points to it being a torpedo heavy carrier. You can take issue with Jaeger's purpose all you like, it doesn't change what's out there.
This is were I just have to say "those are the numbers BUT they dont make much sense", Voyager is even worst because they really didnt bothered and amusing enough the ship actual technical capabilities were pin down just to be ignored, number of torpedoes? irrelevant, number of shuttles? irrelevant.
So because one set of writers completely threw out anything resembling continuity, every other continuity should be utterly ignored?
I just pointed out the game Heavy Escort have a crew of 100 and the game Heavy Escort Carrier have a crew of 200, it doubled it from T3 to T5 as another T3 ship, the Excelsior, that is at T5 maintained the exact same listed crew.
Interesting enough the Blockade Runner Escort have a crew of 200, I would not mind the Heavy Escort having a crew of 500 since crew in this game is near pointless and right now its being used as a excuse by some people to slap a Hangar on cruisers.
Here's the main problem you seem to be unable, or unwilling, to deal with: STO's crew count means absolutely nothing at all. It's a completely non-functional mechanic based on complete whimsy on the part of the designers. Trying to use those numbers to justify anything is like using the first word of every article in a newspaper to justify going on a shopping spree three thousand miles away. It's entirely nonsensical.
Oh I'm not in favor of that at all. I dont even think every cruiser should get them. Actually I dont even think the Odyssey and Bortasqu should get them, but the Scimitar shouldnt have gotten them either, and since Cryptic cant retroactively fix that stupid error then the Odyssey and Bortasqu should have them for balance reasons. Sometimes two wrongs make it right, beyond that its just power creep and not in a good way.
explain how come the only canon carrier shouldn't have gotten fighters lol?
if anything the only mistake was not making the scimitar into a full flegded carrier, but i'm ok with it since its an excellent ship anyway.
Makes no sense that Romulans are starving in NR yet they have resources to build Scimitars and Feds/KDF has a joke of flagship. An hangar bay -considering the current statu quo of the things- is just the minimum a ody should have, but I'd add waaay more if we want to make any sense here.
Makes no sense that Romulans are starving in NR yet they have resources to build Scimitars and Feds/KDF has a joke of flagship. An hangar bay -considering the current statu quo of the things- is just the minimum a ody should have, but I'd add waaay more if we want to make any sense here.
i always assumed they get most of their ships by defecting officials/scientists.
plus the scimitar was reman, and remans are firmly on the republic side.
With the introduction of flight deck carriers, I really have to agree with this topic. Aside from the obvious facts that it's hilariously stupid to design what's probably the best looking "hanger pet" in the game, place it on the rear end of a ship permanently (thus designing a really cool launch sequence other hangers lack), and then make it into a console that's essentially unusable... If you compare the Ody to other ships (especially flight deck cruisers) you find that it is sorely lacking. The Voth Bastion Flight Deck Cruiser in particular outperforms an Odyssey in every single area aside from crew count (which is meaningless) and the loss of two cruiser commands (also not a huge deal - especially if other cruisers are around). However, it gains a hanger bay.
While I don't think the Odyssey should get a full hanger - I do think it should come with a fused Aquarius hanger pet that launches a single frigate (not two - the Odyssey does have full cruiser commands after all, and launching two when only one is actually part of the ship is just silly). That hanger pet could then function identically to other hanger frigates - including both their launch cooldown and carrier commands.
With the introduction of flight deck carriers, I really have to agree with this topic. Aside from the obvious facts that it's hilariously stupid to design what's probably the best looking "hanger pet" in the game, place it on the rear end of a ship permanently (thus designing a really cool launch sequence other hangers lack), and then make it into a console that's essentially unusable... If you compare the Ody to other ships (especially flight deck cruisers) you find that it is sorely lacking. The Voth Bastion Flight Deck Cruiser in particular outperforms an Odyssey in every single area aside from crew count (which is meaningless) and the loss of two cruiser commands (also not a huge deal - especially if other cruisers are around). However, it gains a hanger bay.
While I don't think the Odyssey should get a full hanger - I do think it should come with a fused Aquarius hanger pet that launches a single frigate (not two - the Odyssey does have full cruiser commands after all, and launching two when only one is actually part of the ship is just silly). That hanger pet could then function identically to other hanger frigates - including both their launch cooldown and carrier commands.
Comments
As to the scim having fighters, it doesnt have fighters it has frigates. The pets it got were stupidly unecessarily powerful. That is what has to be countered/fixed.
What does crew have to do with ships being built or not being built with hangers?
We are discussing something and you take an emotional reaction to it. It is rather kinda silly.
All I am saying is for larger ships it makes sense to add a hanger bay and end up a sorta flight deck cruiser.
Scimitar is another issue, yes. It already has the option of a frigate. I don't think I have ever seen anyone use the fighter over the drone ship.
With the current mechanic of hanger pets, fighter aren't as good as frigates. Fighters die and need to respawn at 0 stars. It takes a lot to hurt an elite frigate.
But of course I also don't understand why not all ships have tractor beams either.
But that is just me.
Wow, I've been schooled. I didn't know that their was this wealth of information. None the less, to continue the conversation...
Will their be an upgrade to the hangar pets? Because if they were to add one to the odyssey / Bortas'qu it would be nice if the hangar pets were immune to warp core breaches, it pisses me off that I keep my pets alive long enough in a fight (while fighting myself) only to have them reach 5 star and then get blown to pieces.
So the console itself functions like a hangar, 60- whatever second CD able to support two frigates at any given time, hangar UI and AI (that should work for chevron and saucer sep) and thats about it. Keep the oddy and bort ocked into the aquarius and such but let the physical console function like a hangar.
best of both worlds. It stays locked onto the respective ship, and you cant be running around with 6 elite scorpions.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Turn off the dumb lock out mechanic let oddy use all 3 abilities at once they are mostly lack luster anyways, and have longer cool downs then hanger pets and are arguably worse.
Buff both pets shields and hull hp, give aquaris and bortas pet tact team, with all 3 consoles hy 1 and rapid cannon 2 or 3.
Give the oddy saucer the ability to choose saucer or main section.
Saucer mode would gain the weapon bonus's like +5 weapons +5 to engines -10 shields and higher turn rate say 16 or 15 , but would have lower shield mod 1.0 and reduced hull. <- basically destroyer mode. Main hull gains HY 3 and with all 3 consoles attack pattern beta.
Main hull mode +5 engines +5 aux -10 weapons and the slight turn bonus, slightly reduced hull. <- basically support/science mode. Saucer gets transfer shields or science team and with all 3 consoles GW.
Right now its not the case
Go Rom or go home
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That's not Star Trek. That's Star Wars Galactica Trek.
So are you saying Star Trek tng, voyager, and ds9 where they had ship/shuttle fighting isn't real trek or are you saying that it didn't happen over and over again on those shows?
One point regarding crew on the Akira versus other ships: you're not factoring in the air wing crew requirement. An Akira is slated to carry 40+ combat craft with an additional 20+ auxiliary craft.
Manning those ships alone accounts for a minimum of 100 people. Add in the deck crew needed to maintain and repair those ships, and you've got at least another 100, likely more. That's 200+ crew needed for the air wing alone (personally I'd put it much closer to the 3-400 range based on the notion that you're going to need more than two people to fully maintain a combat craft at all times), before the ship itself is also manned.
In other words, the complement of 500 as stated by the DS9TM isn't at all outside the realm of reasonableness. STO's love of launching miniscule numbers of strike craft doesn't remotely correspond to what carrier ships are actually supposed to field, and is driven much more by gameplay and technical concerns.
Not to mention the crew mechanic in STO has absolutely no correlation with anything resembling source reference.
Except there really wasn't much of it...when did Voyager or Enterprise ever launch shuttles to directly attack a ship?
The one time in DS9 I can recall where shuttles were actually helping in offense/defense was the first time the Dominion encountered the Federation...that didn't go well and the Runabouts only survived because the Founders wanted to sneak a Vorta spy on the station.
The only reason why it didn't happen more often in tng was supposedly because it cost a lot in fx to have it in more often. Tng only did it in best of both worlds.
I think it was in season 5 of ds9 that they moved from models to cgi and in most fight afterwards you will see a shuttle somewhere in a large scale fight.
That moved in to voyager and it was like that all the time.
I don't remember seeing it in enterprise though
fortune favor the bold
That would be nice but could use a shorter cooldown and don't share cooldown with Fleet Support I & II and Nimbus Pirate Distress Call.
LMAO @ FX costs. :P:D
DS9TM is riddled with typos, copied and pasted sections and flat out errors (for example, the Saber is given an 100% identical entry to the Norway). It's useful as a guide. Not much else. Subsequent source items (most notably multiple RPG modules from at least three different companies, as well as later starship source books) included the carrier purpose. In fact, they're where the air wing complement numbers come from.
Collectively, source regarding the Akira points to it being a torpedo heavy carrier. You can take issue with Jaeger's purpose all you like, it doesn't change what's out there.
So because one set of writers completely threw out anything resembling continuity, every other continuity should be utterly ignored?
Here's the main problem you seem to be unable, or unwilling, to deal with: STO's crew count means absolutely nothing at all. It's a completely non-functional mechanic based on complete whimsy on the part of the designers. Trying to use those numbers to justify anything is like using the first word of every article in a newspaper to justify going on a shopping spree three thousand miles away. It's entirely nonsensical.
explain how come the only canon carrier shouldn't have gotten fighters lol?
if anything the only mistake was not making the scimitar into a full flegded carrier, but i'm ok with it since its an excellent ship anyway.
i always assumed they get most of their ships by defecting officials/scientists.
plus the scimitar was reman, and remans are firmly on the republic side.
While I don't think the Odyssey should get a full hanger - I do think it should come with a fused Aquarius hanger pet that launches a single frigate (not two - the Odyssey does have full cruiser commands after all, and launching two when only one is actually part of the ship is just silly). That hanger pet could then function identically to other hanger frigates - including both their launch cooldown and carrier commands.
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