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quad cannons set bonus discussion
telbasta7386
Member Posts: 761 Arc User
We all know the debate on quad cannons vs dual or dual heavy cannons - generally the arguments against them are poor stat modifiers (4x dmg instead of acc, crth, or crtd), the fact that they max out at mk x, and the drain on shield power.
Those arguments work well enough against the quad phasers or disruptors, buy what about plasmas?
Quad plasma cannons are the only quads in the game which work with a set bonus. That set bonus grants +10% plasma damage and +30 energy weapon skill.
so, do those set bonuses offset thr shortcomings of the quad cannons?
Those arguments work well enough against the quad phasers or disruptors, buy what about plasmas?
Quad plasma cannons are the only quads in the game which work with a set bonus. That set bonus grants +10% plasma damage and +30 energy weapon skill.
so, do those set bonuses offset thr shortcomings of the quad cannons?
Post edited by telbasta7386 on
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I'd prefer some other mod than [dmg] mind you.
Since Quads get 4 Modifiers, Advanced Fleet Quads should get 5. Essentially the same as the other Advanced Fleet weapons but with an extra [Dmg] on them.
Example Dual Heavy Cannons are [Acc]x2 [Dmg]x2 Quads would be [Acc]x2 [Dmg]x3.
And yes still 1 per a ship. Problem solved and more money for Cryptic. And hey they made Andorian Phasers Elite Fleet level. Infact why stop there Wide Angle Torpedoes, Wing Cannons, even Bio-neural Warheads should have Fleet version requiring the Originals.
If you want to use Quads, go for it I won't stop you. If you ask me how to improve your ship removing Quads may be one of the first steps.
Edit: oh and Fleet versions also get the Set Bonus for Plasma Quads.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Why should there be?
There's no fleet Thermionic, no fleet Wing cannons, no fleet Aux cannons, no fleet retrofit phasers, no fleet chroniton beam banks, no fleet Rapid fire missile launchers...
All of those fit into the same category, why should Quad cannons be special?
What you actually mean is you want them.
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
Well I could agree but.. Why should it matter to you if he wants them some people like different flavors of things .. its ok to likes something you don't have to like it .. Every one is different O_o.. what's wrong with that
Well if you actually went on reading the rest of his post instead of snipping out the first sentence you'll find out he actually does want a lot of the special weapons to get Fleet versions too.
If you quote the whole thing it's harder to take something out of context and make somebody look foolish.
First of all I don't own any Quad Cannons and have no intent to buy them even at Fleet Levels, I'd probably pick up a Wide Angle Torpedo but. But I'd love to see people who use Quad Cannons get a version that is good at End Game. Why should the guy in the "Like the Show" F-TER get penalised for having Quads?
Is it really that surprising that I'm arguing for improvements to the whole rather than just to my own ship?
Well let's look at what I suggested, I added Wing Cannons, I forgot Aux Cannons. There would be no point in making Fleet Retrofit Phasers because there are already Mk XII Fleet Phasers. And I did leave out all the Lobi Store items intentionally.
You say why bother? I say why not, and the reason I say why not is simple. How hard is it to make a Fleet Weapon? You give it 4 Mods instead of the normal 3, you make it available in a very specific way. There's very little effort in making a Fleet version of the Wide Angle Quantum or the Quad Phasers, but it would make these weapons viable at end game and overall more desirable.
And more importantly they have already made the Blue Andorian Phasers available in Advanced Fleet form. So why stop there.
That means more Zen will be spent on purchasing the originals and More Dilithium sunk into getting them which is what Cryptic wants.
My question to you similon is; How does adding more choices to this game take away from what your doing?
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I couldnt wait to get to tier three and get my Ar'kif for the new character.. I built it as closely as i could to my lvl 50 ship with the plans to continuously upgrade the loadout and equipment as i gained rank.. The Quad was there, but i still cant get the console, and it leaves the ship wanting.. The damage increase doesnt seem to be that much with just the quad cannon.. Not without the console that is.. But it did good, right up till i met the cardassians.. Now, i've had maybe six characters all told, and have taken ob the cadassians in everything from a Deh'lan to a thunderchild, to a mogai, and ive never had the problems i have had with the Ar'kif.. Withou the very specific Boff traits and the very specific consoles of the T5 bird, its still a paper tiger and does minimal damage. Thats when i ran into the MU dudes and O'Brien and his Molly.. Like i said i've met him before, and ive beaten him before. ive died a few times, but today was epic. Epic fail that is.. after fourty five minutes of getting nailed by the guy within three shots and never getting his shields below 51 I had to call in a friend to help. it was bloody embarrasing.. yes, i have my boffs trained in all the right training. each complements and backs up each other and the ship. The ship just is not ready to take on o'briens ship without the exact right skills and that stupid console.. The quad cannon gives you a little more power, but not enough to make a difference on its own.. Its a good weapon, but it doesnt add that much to the playability of the ship.. The ship needs strong hulls, fast regen shielkds and one hell of a heal going for it.. Without that console, its maybe on par with the Miranda at best, regardless of what the numbers say..
Consider my actual intent. Of course, you had no way of knowing that for certain. I'll admit I didn't make that entirely clear, and perhaps I should have specified the majority of my post was an open statement. Although I had expected that to be quite obvious...
To try and make things clearer, the only part directed specifically at you was the single line questioning the quoted statement. Which I'll get on to soon enough.
I never suggested otherwise.
No, I asked why should there be. That is a very different question. "should" implies that it has to, or that it's the only logical decision. Quads, wing cannons, aux cannons, wide arc and all the other special things are already, unsurprisingly, special in some way. They have something exceptional to make them superior in one way or another. Would you also ask for Fleet Romulan plasma weapons? The only real difference is they already have a Mk XII version, whereas the leveling things stop at XI.
I've always assumed that's because Andorian phasers were just a re-colour, not a weapon that was already distinctly special. They didn't make Fleet Wind cannons, presumably because they (like quads) are already [dmg]x4. (Not that I've ever used wing cannons, I'm just going by the wiki for them.)
Oh look! now you're doing what you accused me of, how sweet. Anyway, I never said it did. Please stop tossing false accusations at me. I also never said I didn't want them and if they were there, I'd definitely get some.
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
You say: This implies that I want Quad Cannons improved for my Benefit. You than say: that you never suggested I want them when I state my belief isn't based on what I want.
That appears quite contradictory now doesn't it? Perhaps it's all just misunderstanding on my end.
The other thing is I explained why they should be there in the original post, it was based on the Availability of the Andorian Phasers as Fleet Weapons. My original post states that this was why I thought all Ship special weapons should get Fleet versions.
You bring up a good point about the Romulan Plasma weapons, The reason I don't think they should be upgraded is because they are available with any 2 mods you want unlike the ship weapons and they are a good alternative to Fleet Weapons for people in low fleets, Much like the Tholian Rep Tetryon Weapons.
The other thing is part of the appeal of certain ships are the special weapons, Such as the Andorian Wing Cannons, Vesta Aux Cannons, Quad Cannons, Wide Angle Torpedo and Bio-Neural Warhead.
There is no equivalent to these weapons. Maybe they shouldn't get as many modifiers as other Fleet Weapons due to there special nature.
As to my last statement of how does it affect you, that was quite a bad move on my part, I'd gotten somewhat defensive about the quote that appeared to be out of context and ignored everything I said under it.
Something I think we're both guilty of here is derailing the OP's topic which is meant to be a discussion of Plasma Quad Cannons + Console making up for the rather poor Mods they have during end game.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
If people like those in this discussion above want to display their stupidity by calling the quads junk, let em. lol their loss
I have DPS parsers to prove the dps increase in PVE. Quad plasma vs fleet plasma DHC and the LOLromulan plasma DHC...
Peace!
BTW, ^ this idiot above me is incorrect. The Quad cannons are MK'less. They are not mk x. And the DMG modifier is king for pve, of course this is not the case if the moron does not spec into Targeting systems skill...
interesting. One would think that even with the operative bonuses, a weapon with additional crit chance and severity would still have higher potential.
Are your dps tests done with rapid fire / scatter volley, or just plain attacks? My new ar'kif build gives up rf/sv, so all ill have going for the quads are attack pattern omega and the basic attacks.
do you really have to be so insulting in order to participate in this discussion? Quit being a prick.
I am willing to wager if you use all plasma weapons, then the 10% boost and energy skill boost makes this 2p well worth it
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
yea, my setup at the moment is quads, 2 dual banks, and a torp forward, and three turrets aft, all plasma. Eventually ill be getting the romulan experimental plasma beam and plasma torpedo launcher, and replacing one turret with a cutting beam, so the majority of my damage output is plasma based.
Most of the singularity abilities also do plasma damage, as does the focused singularity beam, and I think even the ships summoned by my photonic fleet and fleet support use plasma, though I doubt they get the bonus.
You inferred, I did not imply.
I did apologise for my poor wording previously, so I think you should just blame me.
On that: telbasta7386, I sincerely apologise. I shall try not to do it again...
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
The boost applied to eject warp plasma (too bad we dont have a commander ranked engineer slot or i'd run two copies of that), the focused singularity beam itself, the plasma DoT on plasma torpedoes (also spread/high yield), and the plasma damage dealt by singularity plasma shockwave.
I'm not yet sure if the boost applies to photonic fleet vessels, hangar pets, or deployed plasma satellites, though.
At the moment I'm running one of the fleet embassy plasma infused consoles for 8.6% extra plasma damage, on top of the 10% boost from this set bonus, I'm going plasma crazy =P
Well, the Set-Bonus is the only thing that makes those Plasma-Quad-Cannons worth something. I tried them in PvP (yes, that might be crazy), they hit on 76% of the shots. The other Weapons on my ship (Romulan Mk XII Cannon-Types with [Acc]x2) hit about 86%.
So, now I'd do a little math on that:
- Quad-Cannons with [Dmg]x4 have 106% of the base damage for Mk XII and hit on 76% of the shots:
0.76*1.06=0.8056
- [Acc]x2 Dual-Cannons hit on 86% of the shots and each of their modifiers is worth a half [Dmg], so their base-damage is 101.5%:
0.86*1.015=0.8729
This isn't looking on additional Criticals through accuracy-overflow, so normal dual-cannons with [Acc]x2 deal about 0.8729/0.8056=1.084 times the damage (in a PvP).
The only reason for using them is the set-bonus, you get "real 10% more plasma-damage", while a blue Mk XI Plasma-Infuser would give me only about 6%.
So you can use the Set only on the Ar'Kif/Ar'Kala and the Quad-Cannons are worthless without the Set. Especially using an Elite-Core (Amp-modifier), you can drain your engine-power and might loose one 3.3% Bonus to your All-Damage.
Now the KDF-/FED- whiners may take over and ask for their Quad-Cannons to get a Set-Bonus.
I'd support a Fleet-Version of the Plasma-Quad-Cannons, but I'd ask for "Advanced/Elite Romulan Plasma Quad Cannons" (so with the Disruptor-Proc), the modifiers should be at least [Acc]x2 [Dmg], [Acc]x2 [CrtD] would be better.
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
Weapon mods, and what ones are best, depends very much on...many things.
First being what it is you want or expect your ship to do.
Second being what other modifiers you can actually GET for your ship besides on your weapons. This includes things like power settings as well as attack patterns or sensor scan.
That being as it is, if you knew NONE of those things and all you ever intended to do was put weapons on your ship, the Quad Cannons would be the way to go especially considering the set bonus.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=871221
That should help with understanding the interplay of wep mods as they are VERY codependent. Sort of like my ex.
Short version on wep mods, and no I won't be back to this thread to explain.
ACC better than everything, or has virtually zero value.
DMGx3 better at or below 10% CritH
DMGx4 (Quads) at or below 15% CritH
CritH and D need to be in a roughly 1 to 10 ratio to gain the best effect.
If you have 10% CritH and only 80% CritD, you can safely add CritDx3 to maximize your overall damage. Adding anything else (besides ACC) will be sub par.
Cheers! And be very happy with those Quads.
What I'm saying is that the quad cannons (with the set bonus for the ar'kif) boost the damage of -all other plasma weapons- on your ship. I think that if you ran a 1 quad + 3 DHC + 3 turret layout, you'd do a hell of a lot more damage than a 4 DHC + 3 turret layout. Even if you throw a torpedo in there, you'll probably still be doing more damage than you would otherwise.
Now, if we're talking quad phasers or quad disruptors, I totally agree with you - they're not going to be as good as accuracy (or crit chance, or crit damage) modified DC's or DHC's. The point of this thread is that quad plasmas are different, when used in conjunction with the focused singularity beam console on the ar'kif. The damage bonus that the set gives to plasma damage outweighs any advantage you'd get from using another weapon with different modifiers over the cannons (and losing the bonus).