Uh no, first of all the B'Rel has a a turn rate of 23 and inertia of 80. Don't know where you're getting the turn of 19 from. Nothing turns as quickly as a B'Rel can, other than shuttles. Its shield mod is 0.8.
T'Varo has a turn of 18. Hull 27k. It's 5000 more than the B'rel, but it is still less than 30k, and it's still fragile. Its shield mod if 0.9, not 0.99. The Fleet T'Varo has 0.99 and almost-but-not-quite 30K hull. But if you're comparing the Fleet T'Varo to the standard B'Rel, then you're being dishonest. The Fleet B'Rel also has 10% more hull and shields. The difference is still about 5K between them, but they're both glass cannons. But the Fleet B'Rel has close to 25k hull, and a shield mod of 0.88. So get your facts straight.
But the B'Rel has one edge you've completely ignored: it has a totally universal boff setup, while the T'Varo only has one universal boff station. You don't 'have to' use tactical boffs at all, universal means universal. The B'Rel is far more flexible as a result.
Jeez, you do know that 0.99 shield mod is practically Cruiser strength shield levels, right? More hull strength is more hull strength, no going around that.
Plus, the devs in their infinite wisdom, put a ENG Console slot on the Fleet B'Rel, which should be excelling in SCI & TAC actions, actions that are fully supported by the Enhanced Battle Cloak. This is while the Fleet T'Varo has a much superior Console layout for what the ship is capable of, primarily TAC with SCI, and is an infinitely superior Torpedo Boat, something that the B'Rel used to be quite unique in how it did that duty.
And the Universal BOFF station layouts of all BOPs except the Fleet Norgh have only a total of 11 BOFF skills possible, unlike the 12 that all others get. This was not an issue earlier in STO's history when the BOPs were the only ships with Universal BOFF stations, and is a fair tradeoff. But now almost EVERYONE and every new ship has Universal BOFF stations to give them flexibility. Not surprising to see ships with LtCdr Universal stations, and a few have powerful Cmdr Universal stations. Yet NONE of these Non-KDF BOP ships pay the price with fewer total BOFF skills to use.
Another thing with the KDF BOPs is another justification for the lower hull & shield mods is that they have Battle Cloaks.
Well, 'lo and behold, we got the Romulans now. Now, not only do they have Cloaks, but they have at the bare minimum, the much more superior Romulan Battle Cloaks, which are outright even better than the KDF BOP's Battle Cloaks, much less standard Cloaks. On top of this, the Warbirds pay absolutely no penalty in their ships, not even in hull and shield strength.
Oh, and the less subsystem power from Singularity Cores is a joke. It's only a concern while levelling up, because endgame equipment and higher captain skill levels offset alot of that "penalty," while you still get to reap some very nifty Singularity Abilities, a number of which are "Get Out Of Jail" cards.
And then there's the Romulan subfaction BOFFs... lol, talk about Game Breaking...
Anyways, everyone else has been getting a free ride with boosts and pay for nothing, while the KDF BOPs continue to pay as if the STO gameplay was still in 2009.
Jeez, you do know that 0.99 shield mod is practically Cruiser strength shield levels, right? More hull strength is more hull strength, no going around that.
Saying that the T'Varo has more hull points is missing the forest from the trees. Yes it has more hull points, but it's still less than 30K, which makes it a fragile glass cannon ship just like the BoPs are and have been for years.
The Defiant, and the Fleet Defiant, has more hitpoints and is better able to tank than the T'Varo can. EDIT And it is considered a glass cannon ship as well.
Plus, the devs in their infinite wisdom, put a ENG Console slot on the Fleet B'Rel, which should be excelling in SCI & TAC actions, actions that are fully supported by the Enhanced Battle Cloak. This is while the Fleet T'Varo has a much superior Console layout for what the ship is capable of, primarily TAC with SCI, and is an infinitely superior Torpedo Boat, something that the B'Rel used to be quite unique in how it did that duty.
I'm not going to argue that the eng console was a stupid idea on Cryptic's part. It is. The only silver lining is that hey, you can put another universal console on there instead of anywhere else.
And the Universal BOFF station layouts of all BOPs except the Fleet Norgh have only a total of 11 BOFF skills possible, unlike the 12 that all others get. This was not an issue earlier in STO's history when the BOPs were the only ships with Universal BOFF stations, and is a fair tradeoff. But now almost EVERYONE and every new ship has Universal BOFF stations to give them flexibility. Not surprising to see ships with LtCdr Universal stations, and a few have powerful Cmdr Universal stations. Yet NONE of these Non-KDF BOP ships pay the price with fewer total BOFF skills to use.
Yeah but the universal boffs layout is for every boff on a BoP. And if you did an aux2batt build that 11 turns into 20, albeit only in the sense that you can double up on 9 boff abilities.
Another thing with the KDF BOPs is another justification for the lower hull & shield mods is that they have Battle Cloaks.*snip*
Anyways, everyone else has been getting a free ride with boosts and pay for nothing, while the KDF BOPs continue to pay as if the STO gameplay was still in 2009.
I never said that the KDF shouldn't or don't deserve a buff. I was replying to someone who was making a false comparison between the FLEET T'varo, and the regular B'Rel retrofit - and presenting wrong information in doing so.
I'm not particularly happy with the Rom ships being so damn good either. Having said that, the singularity core does hinder Rom ships in comparison to Fed/KDF. -40 less power is -40 less power, to echo your dismissal of my point about hull stats above. And yeah, endgame singularity cores and captain skills offset some of that penalty, but only some of it, not all. Of course when you use a singularity power, your bonus +5-+15 power level to whatever subsystem turns to 0 until the singularity can start building up charge again. M/AM warp cores don't have that problem.
The Feds and Klinks need Buffs to there existing ships to equal the romulan ships in quality
Or the Romulans need NERFs to there ships to equal the Klinks and Feds
just so everyone knows klink/Roms make the best farmers for EC/Doffs/Boffs/contraband/dilithium no other character/race can even come close to them
My Rom/klink farmers wear there straw hats and suspenders with pride and you can do it with the free leveling ships no need to buy a cstore ships they are that overpowered
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
STO was released Feb. 2, 2010 and for the better of 2 years the Federation players got all the goodies, The the Klingons got a much needed upgrade to bring them up to par with the Federation amd the Federation players said ' What about us". So the Dev's released more goodies for the Federation players. Now were have the Romulan players and yet again the Federation players scream at the top of their voice " What about us".
I'm starting to see a pattern here. The Dev's are doing what they can to keep all the players
on an equal footing. Now they are working to bring the Romulan up to par with both the Federation and Klingon's. But what do we hear, the same thing as before from the Federation player "What about us".
STO was released Feb. 2, 2010 and for the better of 2 years the Federation players got all the goodies, The the Klingons got a much needed upgrade to bring them up to par with the Federation amd the Federation players said ' What about us". So the Dev's released more goodies for the Federation players. Now were have the Romulan players and yet again the Federation players scream at the top of their voice " What about us".
I'm starting to see a pattern here. The Dev's are doing what they can to keep all the players
on an equal footing. Now they are working to bring the Romulan up to par with both the Federation and Klingon's. But what do we hear, the same thing as before from the Federation player "What about us".
Its the quality of the goodies
Everything romulan is MUCH better making existing characters and ships worthless in comparasion
Thats the problem
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The Romulans are brand new. They been out hardly 6 months. So they need to be caught up. Last year it was the Feds getting everything. And not KDF. KDF is the one really left behind for years. So the Feds needs a small break.
I'm glad they are working on the Romulans some. There isn't too many choices of ships, outfits, and other stuff.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Uh no, first of all the B'Rel has a a turn rate of 23 and inertia of 80. Don't know where you're getting the turn of 19 from. Nothing turns as quickly as a B'Rel can, other than shuttles. Its shield mod is 0.8.
T'Varo has a turn of 18. Hull 27k. It's 5000 more than the B'rel, but it is still less than 30k, and it's still fragile. Its shield mod if 0.9, not 0.99. The Fleet T'Varo has 0.99 and almost-but-not-quite 30K hull. But if you're comparing the Fleet T'Varo to the standard B'Rel, then you're being dishonest. The Fleet B'Rel also has 10% more hull and shields. The difference is still about 5K between them, but they're both glass cannons. But the Fleet B'Rel has close to 25k hull, and a shield mod of 0.88. So get your facts straight.
But the B'Rel has one edge you've completely ignored: it has a totally universal boff setup, while the T'Varo only has one universal boff station. You don't 'have to' use tactical boffs at all, universal means universal. The B'Rel is far more flexible as a result.
Yeah, he was wrong in his comparison in many points, but take it from someone that has the fleet versions of both ships:
I'm saying it right off the bat, the T'Varo is the best purchase I've made so far for the buck spent.
Using skill points and appropriate equipment I can get my T'Varo hull over 45k. I can't check in game at the moment, but I think mine has 42.5k hull with her current setup. I can usually get the B'rel to around 35.k hull, because I can't use the same equipment and skill setup on a BoP. Why? Because that's when shield mod. kicks in as well as the difference in hull. I can and have been runing the T'varo as an escort. Decloak alpha and stay in combat, forget about having battlecloak, the ship can handle itself. I can't do this in a B'rel, at least not most of the time. I have literally died only twice in PvE in my T'Varo since May 21-st - once because of my own stupidity, the second time due to lack of reflexes.
For a "fragile" ship as you call it, I assure you - this one is far far from a fragile ship. I was basically shocked with the amount of survavibility a T'Varo has, this thing has no issues staying in combat. Oh and it can outtank a Defiant any time of the day, believe me.
Next point - turn rate. Yup, the B'rel has the highest turn rate in STO with 23, while the T'Varo stands at 18. But honestly, it makes no difference to me, especially with the new fleet consoles. I can get targets in front of my cannons with both ships fast enough for this difference to be marginal to me. Besides, what enemy in PvE has the speed and manuverability to make you really feel this difference in turn rate?
Customization - The B'rel has 4 universal Boff stations. The T'Varo has 5 Boff stations, one of which is Lt.Cmdr universal. This is the main selling point left to the BoPs if there is one anymore. However, I'd call the T'Varo the next best thing. With it's well balanced Boff setup you can use the Lt.Cmdr universal to switch the ship into any role. After a BoP, for me the T'Varo is the most flexible ship in game.
Difference in power - the T'Varo has -40 power to subsystems than the B'rel. If you run it as a torpedo boat as you basically use a B'rel this makes no difference. However if you don't, well....I still can't see any significant difference or lackluster preformance from my T'Varo. Probably because with 5 Romulan Boffs you can make the alpha strike from hell and nothing survives for long enough to notice a problem in power distribution.
Now, on top of that - the T'Varo gets a set bonus, the B'rel does not. In a fully DPS centered game, the T'Varo gets a 4-th tactical console and the B'rel an engineering one. This is only good for some universal console like the rule 62, but it doesn't change the fact that 4 engineering consoles is ridiculous on the only BoP that has the 'Enhanced Battlecloak'.
Oh and the best part - fleet T'Varo comes from a T1 shipyard, fleet B'rel from a T5.
Not arguing about any opinions here, just sharing an honest comparison as someone that uses both ships. And even though I really love the B'rel, the truth is that a T'Varo will wipe the floor with a B'rel every single time. Well, unless the T'Varo pilot is a complete idiot.
The real problem here is power creep. It has been going on for some time now, but I figure now even the more numerous Feds. are starting to feel it on their skin. I reckon that's the reason for the increased rate of threads like these popping up.
Oh and everyone calling the KDF "whiners" - grow up! The last T5 C-Store ship the KDF received has been a year and a half ago. That's a year and a half of power creep without anything to compensate for it, except raw player skill. But there's only so much a player skill can compensate for.
The real problem here is power creep. It has been going on for some time now, but I figure now even the more numerous Feds. are starting to feel it on their skin. I reckon that's the reason for the increased rate of threads like these popping up.
Oh and everyone calling the KDF "whiners" - grow up! The last T5 C-Store ship the KDF received has been a year and a half ago. That's a year and a half of power creep without anything to compensate for it, except raw player skill. But there's only so much a player skill can compensate for.
A fine point here. Kinda unfortunate though, huh Shpoks? Player skill has kept BoPs relevant for a very long time, but it simply can't last forever unfortunately.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
A fine point here. Kinda unfortunate though, huh Shpoks? Player skill has kept BoPs relevant for a very long time, but it simply can't last forever unfortunately.
So your saying an entire ship class is destined to become obsolete? :rolleyes:
Thats the dumbest thing I have heard all day.
Uh no, first of all the B'Rel has a a turn rate of 23 and inertia of 80. Don't know where you're getting the turn of 19 from. Nothing turns as quickly as a B'Rel can, other than shuttles. Its shield mod is 0.8.
T'Varo has a turn of 18. Hull 27k. It's 5000 more than the B'rel, but it is still less than 30k, and it's still fragile. Its shield mod if 0.9, not 0.99. The Fleet T'Varo has 0.99 and almost-but-not-quite 30K hull. But if you're comparing the Fleet T'Varo to the standard B'Rel, then you're being dishonest. The Fleet B'Rel also has 10% more hull and shields. The difference is still about 5K between them, but they're both glass cannons. But the Fleet B'Rel has close to 25k hull, and a shield mod of 0.88. So get your facts straight.
But the B'Rel has one edge you've completely ignored: it has a totally universal boff setup, while the T'Varo only has one universal boff station. You don't 'have to' use tactical boffs at all, universal means universal. The B'Rel is far more flexible as a result.
And that means the B'rel is so awesome because its that flexible? Especially iwth all the pay2win and toy consoles these days where most of them are even more effective then bridge officer station slots, yeah your point is muted.
KDF needs a big buff (even if i dont fly it anymore because of that reason)
A fine point here. Kinda unfortunate though, huh Shpoks? Player skill has kept BoPs relevant for a very long time, but it simply can't last forever unfortunately.
My experience with online games shows that powercreep is an inevitable force of nature.
So your saying an entire ship class is destined to become obsolete? :rolleyes:
Thats the dumbest thing I have heard all day.
Well, Romulans have raised the bar a considerable level. They gain a LOT of stuff, and really give up very little for it.
They have battle cloaks on every ship, singularity powers, incredibly strong BOFFs, usually at least one universal station on their ships, access to many items from their allied faction, etc.
6 months ago, before Romulans, I would've agreed that BoPs were far from obsolete. They still aren't. But they don't have as much advantage anymore compared to even a few months ago. Romulan ships have virtually everything. The main things a BoP still has are it's speed/turn, and the full universal set-ups, that is really about it still. Even those can be argued otherwise.
Don't misunderstand, I fly a BoP; sci-B'rel transphasic build, so I don't wanna see them be obsolete either, but if this power creep continues, eventually they might be abandoned for the 'greener pastures' of Romulans.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Don't misunderstand, I fly a BoP; sci-B'rel transphasic build, so I don't wanna see them be obsolete either, but if this power creep continues, eventually they might be abandoned for the 'greener pastures' of Romulans.
Sad but true. Still doesn't really make it 'right' though in my opinion.
I think getting players, both red and blue, to go to the greener pastures IS the point.
For a "fragile" ship as you call it, I assure you - this one is far far from a fragile ship. I was basically shocked with the amount of survavibility a T'Varo has, this thing has no issues staying in combat. Oh and it can outtank a Defiant any time of the day, believe me.
To be honest, I overstated the whole 'glass cannon' comparison thing. The T'Varo is a fantastic ship. The thing that bothered me was someone gave out wrong information and I don't even know why. Like as you said, the T'Varo is still the better ship. Why make that point by getting facts wrong? Facts that can be easily verified?
Maybe you're right about the Defiant. I guess it depends on how you build the T'Varo. Plus quantum absorption is a nice little panic button that comes standard.
Not arguing about any opinions here, just sharing an honest comparison as someone that uses both ships.
Your points are all reasonable and well articulated, and basically I agree with you.
And that means the B'rel is so awesome because its that flexible?
I didn't say that. I said it's an advantage that isn't properly given its due.
Especially iwth all the pay2win and toy consoles these days where most of them are even more effective then bridge officer station slots, yeah your point is muted.
No, it's not. My point is if you are going to compare ships, compare them properly, like how Shpoks did in his post above.
STO was released Feb. 2, 2010 and for the better of 2 years the Federation players got all the goodies, The the Klingons got a much needed upgrade to bring them up to par with the Federation amd the Federation players said ' What about us". So the Dev's released more goodies for the Federation players. Now were have the Romulan players and yet again the Federation players scream at the top of their voice " What about us".
I'm starting to see a pattern here. The Dev's are doing what they can to keep all the players
on an equal footing. Now they are working to bring the Romulan up to par with both the Federation and Klingon's. But what do we hear, the same thing as before from the Federation player "What about us".
QFT...the Feds have gotten all the love for like almost two years prior to LoR, and when anyone gets anything nice it is how you put it "What about us?".
Isn't it amazing how insanely powerful a ship you can build when your entire empire has been fractured into tiny little pieces involved in a civil war with next to no mining, construction, or research capabilities, with your entire faction housed in only a few ships with barely sufficient research stations and overtaxed engineering departments?
Just because you can build one super ship with limited resources does not mean you can build an entire fleet. :P
True, but Shinzon did it without the Vault, or any of the resources that the current Republic has. Besides, that comment by matridunadan1 is a gross exaggeration. Sure the Romulans are fractured but they still have plenty of resources at their disposal.
Besides, that comment by matridunadan1 is a gross exaggeration. Sure the Romulans are fractured but they still have plenty of resources at their disposal.
The Tal Shiar do. The Republic doesn't.
If they did have "plenty of resources at their disposal", why are they so desperately in need of resources from both the Federation AND the Klingons?
If they did have "plenty of resources at their disposal", why are they so desperately in need of resources from both the Federation AND the Klingons?
I think the idea is the resources are to help build a new romulan republic that is composed of people willing to be friends.... as the alternative is a new romulus managed by the tal shiar.
A fine point here. Kinda unfortunate though, huh Shpoks? Player skill has kept BoPs relevant for a very long time, but it simply can't last forever unfortunately.
Yes, I mean don't get me wrong, I'm more of a cruiser man myslef, but still use BoPs because I love the classic Klingon design and they're hell of a fun to play around with. But if we're talking about what's competitive, they're really pacing behind now IMHO. For very long the KDF players have utilized what is the most fragile class of ship in STO due to skills and made it work with some remarkable results, but when the limit of everything else goes up, there's only so much skill could do.
I honestly hope that as Cpt.Geko said in the interview - they have been discussing this and that they'll see it for what it is, so they can decide that some adjustments to BoPs are necessary.
So your saying an entire ship class is destined to become obsolete? :rolleyes:
Thats the dumbest thing I have heard all day.
I wouldn't say destined and I don't think that's what mimey2 meant. But, it's all in the hands of the developers. If for ex. - they raise the level of power/usefulness/etc. on every other ship class and leave the raiders as they are it might not be destiny, but they'll become obsolete.
My experience with online games shows that powercreep is an inevitable force of nature.
Power creep if not meticulously monitored and put under strict control can be a game-killer IMHO. That said, I do agree that generaly the power creep is somewhat a common ingredient in most online games.
However, the difference with STO is that the power creep is not equalized (which is worse than general power creep if you ask me).
Let me explain what I mean by this: If there is power creep in the form of, let's say, higher tier of ships being released( and yes I'm aware that Geko said no ), so for ex. Klingons get a new batllecruiser that makes the older ones a joke, Romulans get a warbird that can wipe the floor with the rest of the warbirds and Feds get a multi-role science ship that can cover multiple roles simultaneously, thus making most of the ship roster obsolete - that would be what I call "general power creep". The stakes have been upped and if you want to be the best or have the best equipment, you gotta' bite in the power creep and obtain these new ships.
However, it is my view that the situation in STO is a bit different. We don't have the so called "general power creep" here that would affect everyone equally. We have a faction-focused power creep and this is worse than just power creep. Why? Because, let's say the Feds getting a Vesta class. Pretty much the most prominent science ship and arguably makes most of the other sci.ships pale in comparison. Has a nice set of gimmicks, including DHCs that use auxiliary power and a hangar on top of that. What does the KDF science department get to compensate? Nothing.
Now it's happening again in a certain manner with the Romulan faction. The difference now is that Feds. are feeling that they're getting the shorter end of the stick, not just KDF.
The moral of the story? If you think that having a small power creep is a must in order to move the game forward and keep people engaged in obtaining the new level of items, then at least try to balance it on all the playerbase. Otherwise, you're left with big portions of the players feeling cheated because another part of the playerbase can obtain this new level of items if they desire to, but these other groups can't even if they want to.
Comments
Comparitevly the Defiant Bridge is a cavern. it's only lke 4 times the size of the ACTUAL defiant bridge from the show....
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Jeez, you do know that 0.99 shield mod is practically Cruiser strength shield levels, right? More hull strength is more hull strength, no going around that.
Plus, the devs in their infinite wisdom, put a ENG Console slot on the Fleet B'Rel, which should be excelling in SCI & TAC actions, actions that are fully supported by the Enhanced Battle Cloak. This is while the Fleet T'Varo has a much superior Console layout for what the ship is capable of, primarily TAC with SCI, and is an infinitely superior Torpedo Boat, something that the B'Rel used to be quite unique in how it did that duty.
And the Universal BOFF station layouts of all BOPs except the Fleet Norgh have only a total of 11 BOFF skills possible, unlike the 12 that all others get. This was not an issue earlier in STO's history when the BOPs were the only ships with Universal BOFF stations, and is a fair tradeoff. But now almost EVERYONE and every new ship has Universal BOFF stations to give them flexibility. Not surprising to see ships with LtCdr Universal stations, and a few have powerful Cmdr Universal stations. Yet NONE of these Non-KDF BOP ships pay the price with fewer total BOFF skills to use.
Another thing with the KDF BOPs is another justification for the lower hull & shield mods is that they have Battle Cloaks.
Well, 'lo and behold, we got the Romulans now. Now, not only do they have Cloaks, but they have at the bare minimum, the much more superior Romulan Battle Cloaks, which are outright even better than the KDF BOP's Battle Cloaks, much less standard Cloaks. On top of this, the Warbirds pay absolutely no penalty in their ships, not even in hull and shield strength.
Oh, and the less subsystem power from Singularity Cores is a joke. It's only a concern while levelling up, because endgame equipment and higher captain skill levels offset alot of that "penalty," while you still get to reap some very nifty Singularity Abilities, a number of which are "Get Out Of Jail" cards.
And then there's the Romulan subfaction BOFFs... lol, talk about Game Breaking...
Anyways, everyone else has been getting a free ride with boosts and pay for nothing, while the KDF BOPs continue to pay as if the STO gameplay was still in 2009.
The Defiant, and the Fleet Defiant, has more hitpoints and is better able to tank than the T'Varo can. EDIT And it is considered a glass cannon ship as well.
I'm not going to argue that the eng console was a stupid idea on Cryptic's part. It is. The only silver lining is that hey, you can put another universal console on there instead of anywhere else.
Yeah but the universal boffs layout is for every boff on a BoP. And if you did an aux2batt build that 11 turns into 20, albeit only in the sense that you can double up on 9 boff abilities.
I never said that the KDF shouldn't or don't deserve a buff. I was replying to someone who was making a false comparison between the FLEET T'varo, and the regular B'Rel retrofit - and presenting wrong information in doing so.
I'm not particularly happy with the Rom ships being so damn good either. Having said that, the singularity core does hinder Rom ships in comparison to Fed/KDF. -40 less power is -40 less power, to echo your dismissal of my point about hull stats above. And yeah, endgame singularity cores and captain skills offset some of that penalty, but only some of it, not all. Of course when you use a singularity power, your bonus +5-+15 power level to whatever subsystem turns to 0 until the singularity can start building up charge again. M/AM warp cores don't have that problem.
Or the Romulans need NERFs to there ships to equal the Klinks and Feds
just so everyone knows klink/Roms make the best farmers for EC/Doffs/Boffs/contraband/dilithium no other character/race can even come close to them
My Rom/klink farmers wear there straw hats and suspenders with pride and you can do it with the free leveling ships no need to buy a cstore ships they are that overpowered
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I'm starting to see a pattern here. The Dev's are doing what they can to keep all the players
on an equal footing. Now they are working to bring the Romulan up to par with both the Federation and Klingon's. But what do we hear, the same thing as before from the Federation player "What about us".
Its the quality of the goodies
Everything romulan is MUCH better making existing characters and ships worthless in comparasion
Thats the problem
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I'm glad they are working on the Romulans some. There isn't too many choices of ships, outfits, and other stuff.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Yeah, he was wrong in his comparison in many points, but take it from someone that has the fleet versions of both ships:
Fleet B'rel: 25k hull (rounded), 23 turn rate, 0.88 shield mod.
Fleet T'Varo: 30k hull (rounded), 18 turn rate, 0.99 shield mod.
I'm saying it right off the bat, the T'Varo is the best purchase I've made so far for the buck spent.
Using skill points and appropriate equipment I can get my T'Varo hull over 45k. I can't check in game at the moment, but I think mine has 42.5k hull with her current setup. I can usually get the B'rel to around 35.k hull, because I can't use the same equipment and skill setup on a BoP. Why? Because that's when shield mod. kicks in as well as the difference in hull. I can and have been runing the T'varo as an escort. Decloak alpha and stay in combat, forget about having battlecloak, the ship can handle itself. I can't do this in a B'rel, at least not most of the time. I have literally died only twice in PvE in my T'Varo since May 21-st - once because of my own stupidity, the second time due to lack of reflexes.
For a "fragile" ship as you call it, I assure you - this one is far far from a fragile ship. I was basically shocked with the amount of survavibility a T'Varo has, this thing has no issues staying in combat. Oh and it can outtank a Defiant any time of the day, believe me.
Next point - turn rate. Yup, the B'rel has the highest turn rate in STO with 23, while the T'Varo stands at 18. But honestly, it makes no difference to me, especially with the new fleet consoles. I can get targets in front of my cannons with both ships fast enough for this difference to be marginal to me. Besides, what enemy in PvE has the speed and manuverability to make you really feel this difference in turn rate?
Customization - The B'rel has 4 universal Boff stations. The T'Varo has 5 Boff stations, one of which is Lt.Cmdr universal. This is the main selling point left to the BoPs if there is one anymore. However, I'd call the T'Varo the next best thing. With it's well balanced Boff setup you can use the Lt.Cmdr universal to switch the ship into any role. After a BoP, for me the T'Varo is the most flexible ship in game.
Difference in power - the T'Varo has -40 power to subsystems than the B'rel. If you run it as a torpedo boat as you basically use a B'rel this makes no difference. However if you don't, well....I still can't see any significant difference or lackluster preformance from my T'Varo. Probably because with 5 Romulan Boffs you can make the alpha strike from hell and nothing survives for long enough to notice a problem in power distribution.
Now, on top of that - the T'Varo gets a set bonus, the B'rel does not. In a fully DPS centered game, the T'Varo gets a 4-th tactical console and the B'rel an engineering one. This is only good for some universal console like the rule 62, but it doesn't change the fact that 4 engineering consoles is ridiculous on the only BoP that has the 'Enhanced Battlecloak'.
Oh and the best part - fleet T'Varo comes from a T1 shipyard, fleet B'rel from a T5.
Not arguing about any opinions here, just sharing an honest comparison as someone that uses both ships. And even though I really love the B'rel, the truth is that a T'Varo will wipe the floor with a B'rel every single time. Well, unless the T'Varo pilot is a complete idiot.
The real problem here is power creep. It has been going on for some time now, but I figure now even the more numerous Feds. are starting to feel it on their skin. I reckon that's the reason for the increased rate of threads like these popping up.
Oh and everyone calling the KDF "whiners" - grow up! The last T5 C-Store ship the KDF received has been a year and a half ago. That's a year and a half of power creep without anything to compensate for it, except raw player skill. But there's only so much a player skill can compensate for.
A fine point here. Kinda unfortunate though, huh Shpoks? Player skill has kept BoPs relevant for a very long time, but it simply can't last forever unfortunately.
So your saying an entire ship class is destined to become obsolete? :rolleyes:
Thats the dumbest thing I have heard all day.
And that means the B'rel is so awesome because its that flexible? Especially iwth all the pay2win and toy consoles these days where most of them are even more effective then bridge officer station slots, yeah your point is muted.
KDF needs a big buff (even if i dont fly it anymore because of that reason)
My character Tsin'xing
Well, Romulans have raised the bar a considerable level. They gain a LOT of stuff, and really give up very little for it.
They have battle cloaks on every ship, singularity powers, incredibly strong BOFFs, usually at least one universal station on their ships, access to many items from their allied faction, etc.
6 months ago, before Romulans, I would've agreed that BoPs were far from obsolete. They still aren't. But they don't have as much advantage anymore compared to even a few months ago. Romulan ships have virtually everything. The main things a BoP still has are it's speed/turn, and the full universal set-ups, that is really about it still. Even those can be argued otherwise.
Don't misunderstand, I fly a BoP; sci-B'rel transphasic build, so I don't wanna see them be obsolete either, but if this power creep continues, eventually they might be abandoned for the 'greener pastures' of Romulans.
Sad but true. Still doesn't really make it 'right' though in my opinion.
I think getting players, both red and blue, to go to the greener pastures IS the point.
Maybe you're right about the Defiant. I guess it depends on how you build the T'Varo. Plus quantum absorption is a nice little panic button that comes standard.
Your points are all reasonable and well articulated, and basically I agree with you.
I didn't say that. I said it's an advantage that isn't properly given its due.
No, it's not. My point is if you are going to compare ships, compare them properly, like how Shpoks did in his post above.
I never said that it didn't.
QFT...the Feds have gotten all the love for like almost two years prior to LoR, and when anyone gets anything nice it is how you put it "What about us?".
Tell it to Shinzon. he made it cannon. :P
Just because you can build one super ship with limited resources does not mean you can build an entire fleet. :P
My character Tsin'xing
The Tal Shiar do. The Republic doesn't.
If they did have "plenty of resources at their disposal", why are they so desperately in need of resources from both the Federation AND the Klingons?
I think the idea is the resources are to help build a new romulan republic that is composed of people willing to be friends.... as the alternative is a new romulus managed by the tal shiar.
Yes, I mean don't get me wrong, I'm more of a cruiser man myslef, but still use BoPs because I love the classic Klingon design and they're hell of a fun to play around with. But if we're talking about what's competitive, they're really pacing behind now IMHO. For very long the KDF players have utilized what is the most fragile class of ship in STO due to skills and made it work with some remarkable results, but when the limit of everything else goes up, there's only so much skill could do.
I honestly hope that as Cpt.Geko said in the interview - they have been discussing this and that they'll see it for what it is, so they can decide that some adjustments to BoPs are necessary.
I wouldn't say destined and I don't think that's what mimey2 meant. But, it's all in the hands of the developers. If for ex. - they raise the level of power/usefulness/etc. on every other ship class and leave the raiders as they are it might not be destiny, but they'll become obsolete.
Power creep if not meticulously monitored and put under strict control can be a game-killer IMHO. That said, I do agree that generaly the power creep is somewhat a common ingredient in most online games.
However, the difference with STO is that the power creep is not equalized (which is worse than general power creep if you ask me).
Let me explain what I mean by this: If there is power creep in the form of, let's say, higher tier of ships being released( and yes I'm aware that Geko said no
However, it is my view that the situation in STO is a bit different. We don't have the so called "general power creep" here that would affect everyone equally. We have a faction-focused power creep and this is worse than just power creep. Why? Because, let's say the Feds getting a Vesta class. Pretty much the most prominent science ship and arguably makes most of the other sci.ships pale in comparison. Has a nice set of gimmicks, including DHCs that use auxiliary power and a hangar on top of that. What does the KDF science department get to compensate? Nothing.
Now it's happening again in a certain manner with the Romulan faction. The difference now is that Feds. are feeling that they're getting the shorter end of the stick, not just KDF.
The moral of the story? If you think that having a small power creep is a must in order to move the game forward and keep people engaged in obtaining the new level of items, then at least try to balance it on all the playerbase. Otherwise, you're left with big portions of the players feeling cheated because another part of the playerbase can obtain this new level of items if they desire to, but these other groups can't even if they want to.