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Alternate fix to double tap and Aux 2 Battery doffs
naz4
Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
Wonder what the route cause of this super spike and super dem is?
Instead of adding cool downs for double tap, just drastically tone down Marion doff. That's what made super spike possible, not the double tap in itself.
The Marion doff is in itself the most op doff in game right now for any dem flying damage machine and double tapping super spikers.
Drastically tone down the weapon power drain resist by 66% at least and watch things fall in to an acceptable bandwidth.
No more uber double tap monsters and dem destroyers.
Kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Might even give an engi the ability to shine again for pressure damage.
Instead of adding cool downs for double tap, just drastically tone down Marion doff. That's what made super spike possible, not the double tap in itself.
The Marion doff is in itself the most op doff in game right now for any dem flying damage machine and double tapping super spikers.
Drastically tone down the weapon power drain resist by 66% at least and watch things fall in to an acceptable bandwidth.
No more uber double tap monsters and dem destroyers.
Kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Might even give an engi the ability to shine again for pressure damage.
Post edited by naz4 on
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truth
/10 char
It's the combination of BO with marion not one or the other but the 2 together. Also it is worth pointing out you could do the same thing without marion with a weapons battery. You had to be bloody quick or have a very tight macro running but it could be done to the same effect.
I only tried it out on NPCs as a proof of concept so I dare say it would be harder in PvP, maybe not for those more skilled but either way it was possible, but I suspect you knew this anyway.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
And I can still do it with NI on an engi, but nobody cares because I'm not stacking APA/FOMM/TF
Oh yes it is. Is it always the first choice in a bo build? Is it first choice in a dem build? The answer is always yes.
Are there any close alternatives? Not really. To make it more in line with the rest, cryptic should make it so that you need 3 Marion's to get the the level of buff you get now to give it the "if I use this, I'll loose out on that" catch.
The same way you need 3 Conn doffs for attack patterns, this doff should be the same.
As for the BO build part yes it is because it affects the drain from BO BUT those that cannot use/afford marion use weapons batteries instead of marion to the same effect. Marion is something you would consider but it's only because it helps nullify the downside of BO and if you could afford it. If they removed BO from being affected by Marion we would still have the same problem of double tap as people can use a weapon battery and engineers could do it.
The problem is the ability to nullify the drain, the negative part of BO and fire another one in quick succession with both hitting for high damage in such a short amount of time with no downside which is countered by more than marion. They can't trust players to not abuse systems that counter this drawback that was intended so now they have to add the 5s between each firing.
Really if you're looking for someone to blame I think the saying "When you point one finger, there are three fingers pointing back to you." might come into play.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
But...one change:
Reduce the effect, but make it last longer. If it was meant to be used for beams (with their terrible way how they drain), then let it last longer over DEM. At least 15 seconds, though longer would be nice.
That would be a good trade off. Reduce the effect, make it last longer.
Wow, really. Another one trying to bait? Grow up. So it's my fault certain abilities are op? I'm sure the npc's had their feeling hurt with your testing....
If you don't see how Marion is the single biggest enabler to some mega burst damage dealers, means 1 of 2 things:
1 you can't pew without one in your doff slots
2 you just can't see the way things inter link in the overall picture to create over powered issues.
If you remove this 1 piece in game / dramatically tone it down, you balance out 2 things overnight. How is that bad?
Not a bad idea mimey. Maybe take it a stage further and make it single beam array specific...
and i approve this message.
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
Nah.
Keep it to any weapons still, since there are plenty of folks who like using single cannons *cough* still want SHCs *cough*, turrets, and DBBs. Plus of course Klingon ships who can equip DHCs on stuff like a Fleet Vor'cha.
The DPS gain from it would be nice and it'd make it a lot more useful for cruisers to want to slot DEM, even just a DEM 1 for the DOFF effect. At least that would actually let the DOFF keep from what I think is it's purpose, namely to help cruisers/beam array users (though it helped em about as much as the BO DOFF does in it's current form).
The longer it's up the better I say. I would gladly be more willing to slot and use beams on a cruiser if DEM was there quite a bit to help keep power drain to be less of an issue. I would love for the length to be as long as DEM itself, but that is probably asking a bit much.
Just because you included this in your post i ll say: Not a bad idead at all.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
RCK
I would be all for this
I've just spent 40mil ec on buying 2 o head it took me months to save up nerfin it completely would be stupid
However making its duration longer would make sense for the use it was designed for
Just tossing out ideas, but another option would be to simply decouple Marion from BO - though I have no idea if that is even possible systems-wise.
Crack idea - combine AtB and DEM fixes - Make Marion work with AtB instead, and technicians work with DEM instead. XD
Lets all be honest the doffs need a serious once over... tons that are pointless... and quite a few that are just plain out bs.
Marion is annoying a cloaker sure... its just as annoying on a cruiser with aux to bat or with 2 copies of dem.
At dems 1:30 cool down 8s of spike isn't to crazy... at 45s though it does seem like a not bad investment.
The thing is its tied to DEM... so for 8s the DEM hits are hitting at full strength... that has always been the big thing on this doff.... Engi and Sci don't really see the bonus.
Tacs though buff DEM dmg... and when they start pumping a bunch of weapons at 125 power for full power dem hits buffed by alpha.... its nuts.... if you are nice enough to give a tac a go down fighting ... it will eat you through full shields in seconds.
That is thanks to the marion doff.
If you don't believe me load some Singles _ turrets... or all turrets a rapid fire a dem 3 and a marrion... go melt some hull.
Just on setting up my scimitar to try this combo out
Used to use it on my Tor'kaht can't wait to see the results with 20%crit chance 8 seconds full power 5 tac consoles and 5 for weapons should be a light show
I understand how it would help mitigate the power of the BO double-tap/BO+CRF melt, but I think if you did that, it would also hurt pressure damage from eng-cruisers as opposed to enhance it. Sufficed to say, you cannot really take one without the other. Now if you had a proposition for an alternate method for engis in their cruisers to deal pressure damage, then I would be all for this idea. As is... not so much.
Of course I also could have read your post wrong, it is 2 AM after all XD.
In the early days, engis were useful because of their power management capabilities giving them the ability to do pressure damage. With the advent of various items, abilities and doffs, power management has pretty much become a none issue for scis and race leading to 1 of the nails in the coffin for engis.
Nadeon inversion in less than a minute for anyone with Marion has made the eng ability pointless. No need to give tags eps anymore for power.....
why systems....why?????
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Like I said earlier, kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Reduces bo double tap op and a2b op by just making 1 change.
No, what I was subtly implying is maybe it was your/our fault BO is getting nerfed in the way it is. As I have said, which you still have not even responded to, you could fire off 2 BOs in rapid succession, at full power without Marion and using a weapons battery to instead negate the negative part of beam overload. You can also use a well timed EptW to also make up for the power deficit. Marion lets you do 3 but really 2 is enough most of the time.
What your change does is remove the need for marion almost completely and does bork those that use it to not spike. You need to consider things outside of the problem when you're fixing something that is OP and see how it will affect the wider community, gameplay and everything else.
The devs did not intended for BO to be double and triple stacked without any consequences, however when looking at marion and it's other uses most likely saw it had...you know what there's no point arguing this anymore.
Devs said they don't want you double or triple stacking beam overload 3. What you're proposing hurts people that use Marion for it's intended purpose but does not stop someone from double tapping with weapons batteries and EptWs. The problem is the rapid firing of Beam overload at full power by double/triple stacking.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending double tap, just highlighting 1 change that would affect 2 things that are op in this game in the right direction.
Making any change in isolation is bad. Obviously more associated effects would have to be considered I.e. ways of making cruisers more viable without having to doff it up so to speak....
This keeps it's increase in damage over a longer period enhancing pressure damage but stops it helping the double tap as much as it currently is. It will also help reign in the spike from APA popping tactical captains, but allow them to beef up the pressure when needed.
BO will still keep double taps though and you would most likely see a nerf later when top level players develop the macros and system for doing it with weapons batteries and EptW.
Problem with outright reducing Marion's resistance is you're reducing it by a lot and on a premium item it does discourage people from purchasing again. You must at least give them something in return for what you take, increasing the duration to match or at least be half of DEM with a much smaller resistance rating should help.
Also if there are still problems with marion and BO you can then increase the drain of BO or tweak the resistance of marion without adversly affecting the main use. This should hopefully not interact with too many systems.
Once again though, I do believe this will not solve the double tap problem and all it would do is delay the inevitable even if implemented. I'm sorry BO is getting this and that some don't like it but really it is solving a problem without affected the majority of players or other abilities and is most likely in keeping with what the devs had intended as BO's use.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Here's my take on it:
1) I actually believe A.Hawk when he says he dislikes the mechanic, and feels it is poorly designed.
2) The Marion DOFF is very popular now in PvE and is used for BFAW builds.
3) BO Double Taps are only used by PvPers.
It doesn't matter that this mechanic has existed since beta.
It doesn't matter that this mechanic has been used extensively without issue until recently.
It doesn't matter that the introduction of Marion later followed by Romulan Battle Cloak & +Crt% proliferation later followed by the shield penetration Beam Overload DOFF is the actual perfect storm that set the real complaints in motion.
Add 1 to 3 up, and it's an easy fix for Cryptic as the mechanic is an outlier amongst the rest of their design. They don't need to nerf any DOFFs, they don't need to touch Romulans and they won't be upsetting the general PvEr.
Increasing to 20 secs with 1 third current buff level (include margin of error time to activate raw) and got a deal
1. There was a thread months ago about whether Marion stacked or not. Borticus replied that if he did stack, it would be the drain resistance that stacks and not the duration.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9231741&postcount=4
Has this been verified?
2. The description of the doff says "+200 resistance to Weapon Subsystem Energy Drain for 8sec [sic]". I'm guessing this means +200 drain resistance rating. How does this translate to drain resistance percentage? I asked before about resistances other than damage resistance, but I don't think any player knows for sure how they work.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=845901
^^^ x10000 The boffs made the dmg potential more than Marion. Considering you can crit nearly 100% of the time.
However Hull/Shields have gotten out of hand also so spike kind of became a requirement. Let's think back to S3 when they toned down epts/TSS.
That said, there is too much **** out of wack now. They start changing one thing it breaks 1000 other. I don't know if it's even possible to find s suitable balance but time will tell.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If one were careful while adding oodles and oodles of things, then one could add oodles and oodles of things...without the balance issues. Cryptic hasn't been careful - so we've got what we've got.
Some of the things they've stated as balancing constraints - well - they're not. It's a different mindset they have for certain things in looking at them.
Consider the EWO(BO) DOFF, etc, etc, etc, eh? Wasn't that the discussion where a dev stated that it was balanced because of DOFF selection, the use of a DBB was a loss of DPS, etc, etc, etc?
They look at certain things - with the frame of reference of what a person might do in PvE - where what they're looking to maximize is not going to be quite the same thing as what somebody is doing in PvP.
Mobs do not use all the gear and abilities that players do - so, what you need to do in PvE is a far cry different what you need to do in PvP.
It's not a PvP vs. PvE discussion, in the sense of what's better - more skill - blah, blah, blah...has nothing to do with that. But it is a PvP vs. PvE discussion when it comes to the simple mechanics of how things are playing out.
Things which might appear idiotic for PvE are often necessary for PvP...just because the gameplay is different because of what mobs do and what players do.
I think of Willard in his Torp'varo in PvP vs. PvE. I think about ISE...having to plink, plink the Generators, doing almost no DPS and looking pretty pathetic. Then popping the Transformer in a blink of an eye. Thinking about the mediocre damage on an individual Sphere, but annihilating a group of them. Thinking about the damage dropped on the Gate or the Tac Cube compared to that plink, plink against the Generators. He's not built for that certain level of high sustained DPS. He's built for not doing much and then dropping the bomb.
Along the lines of somebody using that 2x/3x BO in PvP...then doing it in PvE...compared to the FAW chains in PvE compared to doing them in PvP.
If they were to give the mobs all the sorts of things players can do, then perhaps they'd have a better chance of balancing things...
...and yeah, I know - never going to happen.
Wow i almost died laughing when i saw that it was you writing this thread . Now all of a sudden your best friend bo double tap is going to get nerfed. Now you want to have a hand in fixing it.
Thats funny to me and to hear you say nerf marion like that would fix it knowing that that would only eliminate 1 way to do it i think shows you have no credibility in the discussion.
You now admit that an ability that you and your team have been exploiting for months in some cases longer well before the marion doffs is op and exploitable. After all this time you have been telling people dont use that nasty grav pulse and inversion while you shoot them in the face with a double tap now you decide to tell people the truth about what is op and killing them.
Congrats on that naz atleast you now have come forward and admitted that your fleet does use exploits not only uses them but bases their premade around them . I hope the devs are smart enough to see through this bs and fix the problem on their own .Glad to see your on the nerf the stuff ive been using band wagon. But hey like you said its not your fault broken op stuff is in the game if its there use it i guess.