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C-Store ship(s) for engineer
uryenserellont
Member Posts: 858 Arc User
I currently use a patrol escort. It does it's job but it's nothing special.
I was originally looking at the Odyssey pack or the Tactical Escort Retrofit. I leveled all the way with cruisers so I'm not opposed to the slow turning, but all throughout vice admiral I've used my escort, mostly doing elite STFs with some missions and other assorted space events thrown in.
I did some searching on the forums and saw there's other recommendations:
Andorian Kumari pack
Assault Cruiser Retrofit (Regent)
Vesta pack
Heavy Escort Carrier (Armitage)
Multi-Vector Advanced Escort.
I hear good things about each of the seven choices, but keep in mind I am an engineer. Some say engineers are terrible in Odysseys because of lack of DPS, some say the Kumari escorts are better without the wing cannons, a lot of people seem to have recommended the Regent and Armitage, the Vesta seems to be great but lacks weapons and I'm not sure how good it would be for an engineer, and the MVAE I'm also not sure about but it has been recommended.
I like DPSing, at least to a point. For me it's not worth flying if I can't do damage. I don't want to be a dedicated healer (in any game, not just STO). I do not have any Starship Threat Control nor will I, because I don't want threat in my escort.
I will eventually have fleet gear and ship access, and am currently grinding up Omega and Romulan rep (I have plenty of Omega marks from before the rep system, so it's just a matter of doing the projects. Romulans I'm starting from scratch).
Boff abilities can change, but it would be an easier change if I bought an escort because my tactical boffs are centered around cannon and torp damage and an odyssey or vesta would use beam arrays.
I just yesterday changed my escort's tactical boff setup from
Tac team 1, torp spread 2, CSV 2, attack pattern omega 3
Tac team 1, torp spread 2, CSV 2
to
Tac team 1, torp spread 2, CSV 2, attack pattern omega 3
Tac team 1, torp high yield 2, torp spread 3
It seems more effective in elite STFs (with a purple quantum torpedo, only mk xi right now), where there's a lot of either unshielded targets or targets with hull exposed. It's easy to switch between both though as it's different boffs, not one boff retrained, and my equipped gear stays the same. Not that that should influence the choice of C-store ship, but at least it shows a bit of what I do.
If anyone wants any more info I'll provide it. I just really need some good, well thought-out advice on ship choice. A lot of advice on the forum contradicts, like when someone says "get the vesta pack" and the next person says something like "no don't, it only has six weapons, get the Regent", and the next says "the Armitage is the best choice of them all. Regent is good but Armitage is better", then "get Defiant. Cloak ftw."
I was originally looking at the Odyssey pack or the Tactical Escort Retrofit. I leveled all the way with cruisers so I'm not opposed to the slow turning, but all throughout vice admiral I've used my escort, mostly doing elite STFs with some missions and other assorted space events thrown in.
I did some searching on the forums and saw there's other recommendations:
Andorian Kumari pack
Assault Cruiser Retrofit (Regent)
Vesta pack
Heavy Escort Carrier (Armitage)
Multi-Vector Advanced Escort.
I hear good things about each of the seven choices, but keep in mind I am an engineer. Some say engineers are terrible in Odysseys because of lack of DPS, some say the Kumari escorts are better without the wing cannons, a lot of people seem to have recommended the Regent and Armitage, the Vesta seems to be great but lacks weapons and I'm not sure how good it would be for an engineer, and the MVAE I'm also not sure about but it has been recommended.
I like DPSing, at least to a point. For me it's not worth flying if I can't do damage. I don't want to be a dedicated healer (in any game, not just STO). I do not have any Starship Threat Control nor will I, because I don't want threat in my escort.
I will eventually have fleet gear and ship access, and am currently grinding up Omega and Romulan rep (I have plenty of Omega marks from before the rep system, so it's just a matter of doing the projects. Romulans I'm starting from scratch).
Boff abilities can change, but it would be an easier change if I bought an escort because my tactical boffs are centered around cannon and torp damage and an odyssey or vesta would use beam arrays.
I just yesterday changed my escort's tactical boff setup from
Tac team 1, torp spread 2, CSV 2, attack pattern omega 3
Tac team 1, torp spread 2, CSV 2
to
Tac team 1, torp spread 2, CSV 2, attack pattern omega 3
Tac team 1, torp high yield 2, torp spread 3
It seems more effective in elite STFs (with a purple quantum torpedo, only mk xi right now), where there's a lot of either unshielded targets or targets with hull exposed. It's easy to switch between both though as it's different boffs, not one boff retrained, and my equipped gear stays the same. Not that that should influence the choice of C-store ship, but at least it shows a bit of what I do.
If anyone wants any more info I'll provide it. I just really need some good, well thought-out advice on ship choice. A lot of advice on the forum contradicts, like when someone says "get the vesta pack" and the next person says something like "no don't, it only has six weapons, get the Regent", and the next says "the Armitage is the best choice of them all. Regent is good but Armitage is better", then "get Defiant. Cloak ftw."
Post edited by uryenserellont on
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Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit (Excelsior).
There are plenty of threads highlighting what that ship can do. Probably more than any other ship besides the Assault Cruiser.
It needed to be done.
Their BOFF setup is near identical as is their console slots with the only difference is the Lt Sci Slot on Excelsior is Lt Universal on Regent (but on Regent you'll be sticking Sci in it anyways its not a real difference).
Excelsior has base turn of 8 while Regent is the usual turn of 7. Excelsior with its Transwarp is useful is you travel around the sectors DOFFing.
Advanced transwarp is OK I guess. It's convenience though, it doesn't affect combat ability.
8 turning is good. No denying that.
It also swaps the Regent's tactical ensign for an engineer ensign. That's one less tactical team 1 for an ensign engineer skill I might not need.
Can you guys elaborate a bit on why the Excelsior is so good? I did a forum search and after many pages no major reasons were given other than turn rate and aux2batt whatever that is (that's another forum search that's proving difficult).
Second, what sort of energy weapons do you have?
Normally I'd recommend the Army HEC (easily my favorite ship in the game) but to get the most out of it you need to have your energy weapons match those of your pets so they gain from your tac consoles.
If you want to go for an Andorian, pick up the Charal. I use the wing cannons and the three-piece consoles set and love 'em but it's really more effective without 'em, especially in PvE.
Of cruisers I'd recommend the Regent, mostly because of that broadsider torpedo that comes with it.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
what he said...but i'd take the kumari for an engi captain instead of the charal. the ship lacks in survivability, but an engi captain can more than compensate for it.
I dont really care for cruisers that much. They do not bring enough benefits to off-set the massive performance penalties. I have a couple that I fly sometime but its only for change of pace in STFs.
even with 2 i don't find that a relyable CD reduction mechanic.
The Andorian ships are superb high damage escorts with good survivability, very nice options if you want to go the escort route.
The Excelsior is a nice high turn rate cruiser with strong tac capabilities, certainly the best cruiser if you want to do single cannons.
The Regent is somewhat similar to the Excelsior, again a tac heavy cruiser, with 1 more tac ability but weaker turn.
Defiant Retro is popular, but it's only worth it compared to the Andorian ships if you're getting the fleet version and/or you want to do PvP.
Heavy Escort Carrier is a solid option, pretty much an Eng heavy escort, so it gets somewhat better survivability than the Andorians, and the hangar might make up the difference from the weaker damage.
MVAE is good for No Win, and it used to be good for other stuff, but as Sci abilities have gotten weaker the MVAE has become a weaker choice.
The Vesta really isn't the way you want to go, it is ultimately a sci ship (and it should certainly be used with cannons). It's certainly the best sci ship available, but a sci ship is totally different from what you've been using.
Aux to Batt (also AtB or A2B) is a build style which is currently the most popular, and probably the most powerful, option for cruisers. I would also say that, when using an escort, you should always have two copies of cannon abilities, unless you're using a really unusual weapon setup.
I use antiproton dual heavy cannons mk XII (acc) (crtH) (borg) plus three equivalent turrets. I have no way of replacing them cheaply right now as I'm not even at tier 2 omega yet (which sucks after all that STF grinding I used to do).
Nobody has said the Odyssey pack is a good choice
I'll have to look more into this aux2batt build. I know I don't have the boffs or doffs for it, and so retraining for it would would mess up my escort.
The kumari pack comes with a phaser dispersal array. Does that benefit from phaser consoles? I do have some phaser DHCs and consoles from before I upgraded to XII antiproton.
Its only available from Steam but if you are looking at c-store ships that may be an option. Sometimes find it on sale too.
Why don't you check this thread and make up your own mind ? It has been written exactly for the kind of choice you are facing now.
To sum up, you have three approches to the choice of a ship : the fan approach (where performance takes a back seat), the escort approach (irrespective of your captain's profession) and the specialized approach. Within the first two approaches, just follow your instinct and preferences, there are no bad choices. If you try to do what your profession does best, it mean flying a tank for an engineer. A tank is not a super-solid ship with low damage outputs, it is a ship solid enough to withstand anything the game throws at you *and* do enough damage to keep the agro away from those crazy escorts !
If you focus only on PvE, probably the best tanks are not cruisers. Nowadays it's difficult to optimize the Engineer commander slot, so you may want a ship with a Lt-Cmd and a Lt engineers, but no Cmd engineer. For a Federation Captain, that would be a Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier or Dreadnought, or a Mobius Destroyer. The Mobius Destroyer is very good for the no-win scenario, the other two are carriers and will make you enjoy the gale in an unusual way. These three are expensive ships, no doubts.
If you want something less expensive, I'm afraid you'd better fall back on a cruiser like the Excelsior or Regent (retrofit or fleet version if you have access to it). If you want to do a lot of PvP, you will want a cruiser anyway so have a look at the Monbosh, Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser, Odyssey (science version) or the two ships already mentionned (Excelsior and Regent). The Monbosh is a very good ship, but it is also very expensive.
Beyond the tank & cruiser table, we can discuss your equipment and play style once you see a bit clearer by yourself. Any engineer should be able to adopt three play styles, according to circumstances ("Dragon", Aux2Batt with Engineering Team, Aux2Batt with science abilities). All ships recommended here may be flown with any of these three families of builds.
Have fun !
I have to take issue with that. There are 5 superb abilities for LtC and Comm Eng slots: A2SIF, DEM, EWP, RSP, and Extend Shields. You really can't squeeze all those in, which is kind of the exact opposite problem. Now, it is true that A2SIF isn't a good option for an A2B build, but all the others are, and DEM is hard to do without if you're using beams (you have to throw in Marion, of course, but that's how you get a high DPS beam boat these days). EWP is a superb CC ability if you can position yourself to use it (taking the Excelsior will help with that), RSP is an incredibly powerful self heal if you're under fire, and Extend Shields is probably the best ally heal in the entire game. And, handily, DEM, EWP, and Extend Shields can all be trained by an Eng captain with an ordinary skill setup (6 points in Energy Weapon Specialization, Engine Performance, and Shield Performance, respectively).
(Oh, and I can't imagine why you'd only mention the Sci Ody, and not the Tac one which has an extra Tac console. And on that subject you should mention the saucer separation you can get for an Ody, which is really what makes it almost worth using.)
On the Fed side, however, carrier offerings are a bit lean. Consider selling a bunch of keys with your Zens instead and buying a Recluse.
I recommend getting both a Cruiser you enjoy and an Escort. Sometime you'll want to fly an Escort for awhile.
Hire more BOFFs, I have a set for Escorts and a Set for Cruisers.
Aux2Bat is based on using the Aux2Bat ability and 3 Technicians usually on a Cruiser (escorts rarely have the slots) you run 2 copies of Aux2Bat and the Techs make all the other abilities cooldown to near global levels. Hence 1 Tac Team is all you need. But don't bother with Aux2Batt until you have at Least 1 Purple Tech and 2 Blues, and your going to want to upgrade to 3 Purples.
Running a non Aux2Bat Cruiser your going to want two Purple Conn Officers who recharge Tac Team so you can run with 1 copy that's available as often as 2.
I very much like the Armitage Heavy Escort Carrier, and I'm going to get the Regent Assault Cruiser Refit. But I'm not worried about the fact that both of these vessel are better in Fleet format because buying them massively reduces the cost of the Fleet Version down to 1 Module. Same for the Excelsior.
The massive advantage to the Kumari line of Escorts and the Vesta (Which is not the ship for you BTW) is that they are already 10 Console Fleet level ships. Where as the Excelsior, Regent, Armitage & MVAE are not and will require an extra 500 Zen (or roughly 6m EC) to upgrade.
Oh and if you go the Armitage get Yellowstones, don't waste your time with anything else.
Also your current Escort appears to be badly setup with 3 abilities that over lap making 1 redundant. Start a new thread and post your full build and I'm sure myself or others will help you.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=lizette1_4343
The weapons can be any energy type you want, plasma would be a very good choice with the experimental beam not useing weapons power but any will work and I use polaron because I bought them when using the jem hadr gear.
The regent is a good tank(Borg cube crits was the only thing killing me in mine and that was when defense skills were already in cooldown and the ship was damaged before) and competent DPS ship. If you want Aux2bat you would be better with an excelsior because the BOFF stations are better suited for that. You can try the basic build style of aux2bat or hybrids by buying a mirror assault cruiser, jut remember it will have far less hull. But thats what i flew until i bought the regent, then eventualy i bought the fleet assault cruiser.
So thats how i fel about the Regent and I hope some of that info helps you make a choice in either considering it or removing from the list of considerations.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Part of the problem for me is I don't know a lot of the ships being mentioned. When I last played the new "exotic" ship was the Galor and there was no such thing as a carrier (edit: (I remember now that it was actually the ferengi cruiser when I left, just a few days after the ferengi lock boxes started showing up. I saw another lock box and said "TRIBBLE this" and left the game, thinking that it was to become centered on lock box gambling)
I'm sort of leaning toward the andorian pack since it will be useful to my lower level fed tac, but I want to check the prices on some of these unfamiliar ships and see if maybe it's worth selling keys and buying one.
Dknight has a good point. I don't want to stick with just escorts or just cruisers. I have a regular Odyssey to play around with but I don't use it much, partly because I invested in equipment for my escort because at the time it was incredibly difficult to complete elite STFs and optionals without their DPS.
(And yes I know one ability is redundant. I'm not even sure I want to keep that boff in that station. I did it to test torp spread 3 which I do like, but I might want to go back to my original setup which had two tac team 1, two torp spread 2, two CSV 2, and APO 3. It's a simple boff switch. Unless even that setup is bad? It's meant to hit multiple targets like those borg probes, which doesn't seem as necessary anymore due to power creep so maybe I can switch one torp spread and CSV for high yield 2 and rapid fire 2, or even APB if it doesn't conflict with APO 3 which I do not want to get rid of).
The Vo'quv Carrier has been in since day 1.
Perhaps these links will help you.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Playable_starship
You can look up every ship available, and get an idea of what they can do.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/
Is a great tool for playing around with builds and working out how to outfit a ship.
Coming back to the game the biggest struggle isn't learning the ship it's learning the vast selection of Universal Consoles.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
- the one previously mentionned for cruisers and other tanks ;
- this one for escorts and destroyers.
Choosing between an escort and a cruiser will be difficult. My initial argument in favour of escorts should not be overestimated, as Jadensecura stressed. I'll bring also another argument that mitigates the advice of an escort.
- It's right, I just meant that a PvE tank is complete with RSP2 in the Lt-Cmd slot and 2 Aux2Batt. Nothing in the game will kill you, with just 3+2 Eng abilities. The attacking potential is then best served by tactical slots, in particular for the Cmd slot, because DEM (more on this just below) and EWP don't have the same offensive yield as APO3 or CSV3. I've recommended Aux2SIF (for a "Dragon" setup) and RSP (for all setups) in another thread, but not in the Cmd slot
- I would say something completely different for PvP, where Extend Shield 3 is the engineer's most wanted ability.
- DEM with the Doff (Marion Frances Dulmur) is extremely expensive, and with that, you compete with the DPS of an escort, but not more (see the thread on the disappointing extra damage caused by DEM, but of course you use it to trigger the Marion effect). If you already own a good cruiser, it might be optimal to buy a Marion Doff rather than a Jem'Hadar HEC or Dreadnought, which are expensive ships by themselves. If the choice is between a package "cruiser+Marion" and a Jem'Hadar HEC, the price difference is not so important (at the usual conversion rate 2500 zen = 30M EC).
More generally, to fly a C-store escort, you might be in the wrong faction or the wrong profession. That's an exageration, because most ships (even horrible mismatchs) suffice for 99% of the PvE content of the game. But consider this : Romulans have the Fleet Mogai, a perfect tank for engineers as well as a fine ship for tacticians.
On the other hand, "Pure" Federation Escorts (like the MVAE, Armitage, Fleet Advanced Escort,...) are good ships from the viewpoint of the quality/price ratio, but they all suffer from one problem or another (wasted ensign slot, not enough engineer slots,...). The Charal/Khyzon is the best of its kind (i.e. for fixed-target DPS), but I don't see how it synergizes with a Captain Engineer. That's ok for "the fan approach" or "the escort approach", but it's not what your character does best. Buying a ship that will be helpful for your captain engineer and your tactical captain is a good idea, but I'm afraid that this implies a concession for either one.
All this being said, have you considered the Mobius ? It's extremely flexible. If you want to tank, use the universal slots for engineers (Aux2Batt with Engineering Team). If you play the no-win scenario, you can have a gravity well. It's expensive, it won't be available for your tactical captain, but it's the ultimate Swiss knife. And honestly, if you don't want an expensive ship, you will be better off sticking with the good cruiser you already own and making a separate purchase for your tactical captain. If that's a C-store ship, you can fly it for fun once in a while with your engineer.
Sorry that this throws more issues into an already difficult choice for a Federation captain. Your list of options includes cruisers and escorts, that's a lot of very different ships, each good in its own way. The good news is, you can't really go wrong and be stuck with a ship good enough for 50% of the game only ; such a bad option simply does not exist.
The problem with building a cruiser tank for my engineer would be Starship Threat Control which I would think is necessary. I don't have any points in it because it would preclude the use of other ships like escorts and I'd be limited to using only cruisers.
(if threat control isn't necessary please correct me
The reason I use an escort with my engineer is DPS + survivability, but like I said that was from back when you needed all DPS to handle the elite STFs and optionals, when people were still bringing rainbow ships and such. A tank wasn't necessary; five escorts had a much greater chance of success. Maybe these days cruiser tanks can also dish out decent damage. I do see my pugs are pretty successful now when people bring cruisers.
I haven't gone ingame to see the prices of ships like the mobius.
I back this up but if you are still going to pop into a Cruiser as an Engineer, go with the Assault Cruiser Refit. It is solid enough to run a 2 Beams, a Torp, and Tac Team 1 while having decent Sci coverage via the Universal slot(Best used for defense: Polarize Hull, Sci Team 1, TSS1). The Engineering BOffs (IMHO) should run like this though to get the most out of it.
Commander: EPtA1 / Aux2Batt or Aux2Damp / DEM2 / EWP3
Lieutenant: Eng Team 1 / (<Whichever Aux2___ you did not take up above)m Aux2Struct 1 or EPtW2
This is a variation I run on my freebie and I find it very solid. If you skilled right and have the correct DOff, your Warp Plasma should be lethal to anything below a Science Ship in Hull Points while having a good chance to shut the engines down and keep them trapped. Great for taking care of Carrier Pets.
If you are not wanting a pure Engineer ship, then I do hope you picked up the Advanced Research Retrofit when it was a freebie during the giveaway week. If so, this is also a solid choice as it provides a larger support tank profile while not losing too much in firepower (A weapon slot each side and 2 Tac Consoles). The Lt. Universal slot allows you to customize for whatever you are going into as far as roles go. It's a pretty solid choice of vessel for an Engineer Captain and with Covariant Shields, can take a huge amount of punishment in PvE and maybe PvP.
Answers on all fours
(1) By an "odd bridge", I don't mean a ugly picture of the bridge for all Andorian escorts. I mean that the tactical version of the Andorian escort, the Kumari, has three tactical officers, 4+3+2 slots (that's a total waste) and lacks the necessary engineering and science slots.
(2) Threat control is useful when you play a cruiser when it is not optimally build. It helps you keep the agro. It is unnecessary with contemporary cruiser builds. Maybe one or two points (and that wouldn't be a problem when you switch to another ship ; remember that you are still an engineer, Miracle Worker is there for you).
(3) This is somewhat related to (2). A tank is not necessary, but you optimize group DPS when the agro is kept by a tank (escorts can attack continuously or almost so).
(4) 80M EC is a usual price for a Mobius. If you see one for 70M or less, it's a very good opportunity.
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
I do have the free advanced research retrofit, but I did not spec much in science to make efficient use of EWP. I have 3 in power insulators, 3 in inertial dampers, 6 in shield emitters and 6 in shield systems. That's it. I only use defensive science abilities like the ones you mentioned. I do have 6 each in warp core efficiency and potential but I doubt they affect EWP. It doesn't say it does anyway, even though EWP is a warp core ability.
Here is something I decided to try last night in my tac ody as i was bored.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=odytac_4235
I did about 3.5mil dps in the elite stf but around the end of it I noticed I forgot to add one of my cannon rapid fire skills to my hotkey and it wasn't being used. Meaning it can do even more dps then that will some pretty cheap gear.
http://www.mikeownage.com/mike/sto/sto2.png
I picked up the mk xii disrupter cannons for 50k EC each what a deal
With chevron separation the turn rate gets to about 18 which is more then enough and with proper use of my skills I can take donatras super beam without dying even in an elite STF. It may do more damage of I used my omega torp rather then the forth single cannon haven't tried yet.
If the turn rate of 18 isn't enough change EPTW to EPTE, if you want less tanking but more damage switch EPTS3 to EPTW3 and EPTW1 to EPTS1
I use the following DOFF's
3 x Damage Control Engys (Blue)
1 x Warp core engy - bonus power (Blue)
haven't decided what to use for the 5th one yet.
this build is still somewhat subpar with dps but it won't ever die unless your not paying attention and won't cost you lots of EC.
The vesta can also be built to do some really nice dps.
The aux2bat ody and aux2bat excel can do some amazing damage as well more so the excel then the ody.
EWP is given strength by the Particle Generator Skill.
Judging by what you said you would be better served then with this.
Lt. Com Tac: FAW or BO 1 / HYT or TS 2 / APO1
Ensign Tac: Tac Team 1
Commander Eng: EPtA1 / Aux2Batt / Eng Team 3 / DEM3
Lt. Engineer: EPtW1 / Aux2Struct or Aux2Damp 1
Lt. Universal: Any combination of Sci Team, Polarize Hull, Hazard Emitters, and Transfer Shield Strength.
However, knowing you have the freebie Retrofit from the give away week; that is a solid support heal tank with some Combat support.
You don't need threat control just some Romulan Embassy +threat sci consoles.
That being said I can fly a HEC in ESTF with 6 points in threat as an Engineer. They gave us a trait that makes Miracle worker available if you take too much damage.
Oh and my Tac in his Escort (with far less defence than my Engineer) also finds himself pulling plenty of agro with 0 points in threat control. You just need to learn to deal with it.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
One of the reasons I went engineer is because of Miracle Worker (that and mines, bombs and turrets). I won't have access to embassy items for a while.
One of the reasons I didn't take threat control