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Feedback on First Time PvP in a Cruiser
rck01
Member Posts: 808 Arc User
Took my FAHCR for a spin in the PvP queues. Hadn't been there in over a year, and that was flying an escort, so I was curious how I'd hold up.
My first match saw me stuck in an arena with some dude in a Steamrunner. Seven times he came at me and seven times I squashed him like a bug. It was quite comical, actually - he bailed after the 7th squashing so...on to the next match.
Second match saw me on a relatively weak team in a Fed-on-Fed scenario. I did pretty good staying alive and even took out 3 of the other team, however, our side was rather disorganized and I was mostly left to be gang-***** by the escorts. I think I drove them nuts since they had a hell of a time killing me and I was spamming the TRIBBLE out of them with BFAW3 from my Fleet Polarons.
Anyway, at the end of the match I found I was second only to the other team's "top gun" in terms of overall damage. However, parsing the CombatLog showed I did nearly 4M damage at a 4.5K DPS clip vs. their best pilot's 2.1M damage at a 2.6K clip. But as I mentioned, I was in a weak PUG and our team's next best player managed only 500K (and one contributed a measly 10K *total* to the match...ugh!).
So, question: Should I by happy with these results? Should a first-time PvP pilot in an FAHCR be posting the best overall damage and DPS cores in an Arena match? FWIW, here's my build - comments, opinions and suggestions on future improvements appreciated:
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=rcktacfahcrevs_0
Thanks!
RCK
My first match saw me stuck in an arena with some dude in a Steamrunner. Seven times he came at me and seven times I squashed him like a bug. It was quite comical, actually - he bailed after the 7th squashing so...on to the next match.
Second match saw me on a relatively weak team in a Fed-on-Fed scenario. I did pretty good staying alive and even took out 3 of the other team, however, our side was rather disorganized and I was mostly left to be gang-***** by the escorts. I think I drove them nuts since they had a hell of a time killing me and I was spamming the TRIBBLE out of them with BFAW3 from my Fleet Polarons.
Anyway, at the end of the match I found I was second only to the other team's "top gun" in terms of overall damage. However, parsing the CombatLog showed I did nearly 4M damage at a 4.5K DPS clip vs. their best pilot's 2.1M damage at a 2.6K clip. But as I mentioned, I was in a weak PUG and our team's next best player managed only 500K (and one contributed a measly 10K *total* to the match...ugh!).
So, question: Should I by happy with these results? Should a first-time PvP pilot in an FAHCR be posting the best overall damage and DPS cores in an Arena match? FWIW, here's my build - comments, opinions and suggestions on future improvements appreciated:
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=rcktacfahcrevs_0
Thanks!
RCK
Post edited by rck01 on
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Comments
That looks like a solid build, i would do away with projectile skills points and max your flow caps and any other useful stuff. But your cruiser wouldn't be that great vs a true escort in a team. you won't be able to heal your team much nor do much spike damage to finish one target off.
Although you might win 1vs 1 given you have RSP on aux2bat cd, however your use of ET1 as a heal will be problematic as it will set a cd on your TT rendering your shield distribution inactive for a set time, enough time to kill you.
You will do decent amount of damage to more than 1 target, but if they have a healer or more experiance, your FAW won't do so much as tickle their shields.
The latest Double tap builds are a testament to this and you will frankly die in 2-3 secs tops given the right build and player type.
However being an engineer may help with your survivability in surviving those alpha strikes if you dont get Subnuked first.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I'm not saying you didn't contribute to kills, but in general don't trust the scoreboards and parsers too much - especially with AoE attacks.
According to the skill planner, he is Tactical, not engineer. RSP is the ultimate defense against BO. With that, the BO can do nothing unless it is in CD.
Yeah, I was going to point out that I'm a Tac and not an Eng.
FWIW, I just discovered "Ker'rat."
Note: Two years in the game and I had no clue what this place was until now! Sad, I know...
Had fun with the Klink players and their itty-bitty BOPs. They dropped all sorts of nonsense on me - GW's, SNs, even the new "mushroom cloud of doom" - but I still managed to escape most of the time. And once I had a lock on them and could kick-in BFAW3 (especially one-on-one - it's BRF3 at that point), it was a melt-athon.
I've never seen so many players actively avoiding me in one place. I have a new favorite hobby now: Klink/Rommie baiting in Ker'rat.
"Here, Kinkly-klinky...come get your nice, fat, juicy, defenseless cruiser meat!"
RCK
The outcome of Arena PvP is highly contingent on your teammates and the quality of your opponents as opposed to you as an individual. You could be doing everything right and still lose 0-15. Since you have not bumped into an organized premade yet, until you do, it is tough to say just how effective your build is.
Strictly regarding your build & skills, here are my comments :
Build
- Very impressive array of beam weapons, love how you go for Acc X 2 + Dmg X 2, accuracy is indeed critical in PvP
- The addition of the Cutting Beam is also a nice touch since you otherwise have no kinetic weapon and would otherwise have no way to counter aceton assimilators when you bump into Klingons and they spam AA whenever and wherever
- The Borg 2 pieces suit your cruiser very well, they reinforce your chosen theme - a tank - so good logical consistency here between your equipment and your build overall
- I am surprised you are still using a MK XI rare warp core, this is a weak link in your build that you should rectify ASAP. Even if your fleet does not have access to fleet warp cores yet, consider buying a better one from the exchange in the menantime
- You have 4 device slots but 3 of which are filled with all kinds of batteries. Know that batteries have a shared cooldown of 1 minute while the used battery itself has a 2 minute CD. While it is understandable you want to have batteries for each situation, you may find yourself unable to do so due to their lengthy CD and only one may be active at any given time. Instead, given you are a tank, consider a stack of Jevonite Hardpoints in lieu of one of the batteries. These Jevonite Hardpoints give +100 SIF for 15 minutes which will carry over if your match finishes in less than 15 minutes. Because you are a cruiser, this will likely add another 12-15K of hull points to your ship, which will make you even harder to kill
- Your use of engineering and tactical consoles slots are more than adequate, though I question the use of two embassy flow capacitors solely to aid your drain in Plasmonic Leech but nothing else. Plasmonic Leech can only stack up to 8 times, so generally they add between 16-20 points to each of your subsystem so long as you keep firing. The incremental benefits of adding +63 in Flow Capacitors skills with these 2 consoles is somewhat limited because the only thing that drains energy on your ship is the Leech - not even a tractor beam. Going by memory, the +63 in FC add about 0.7 more energy pulled per subsystem, X 8 = +5.6 more power per subsystem Not to say the amount is insignificant but you are sacrificing two precious console slots that could be used to slot Field Generators instead
- For your tactical station, I would change APB into APD because not only it gives you an additional damage resistance given that you have no armor console, APD can be applied to multiple targets at once but not APB
- Not a fan of 2 X A2B build, the reason being 2 copies of them tend to be overkill as the 2nd activation will be less effective as many powers would have reached GCD already. Plus, the constant cyclying of A2B severely hinders your Aux power, making your shield heal ineffective and may disallow you to use Polarize Hull if it pulled too much power and AUX = 0 Simply put, your auxiliary system is vulnerable and I will show you why later it can be dangerous. Escorts can use 2 X A2B somewhat effectively, but a Cruiser or Sci who wishes to tank, the 2 copies of A2B is a risky proposition
Skills
- No need to put points to projectile weapons if you do not have any
- Overall, the skill tree distribution look sound, just make sure you understand how hull plating and armor reinforcement skill work in actual damage resistance. Generally speaking, they are poor investment for the points required
Additional Comments & Discussion
In PvP, you will likely encounter not just Escorts even though one would think this game has become Escorts online. Therefore, you need to be prepared for all kinds of possibilities and various strategies. Escorts are ferocious but their mode of operation is quite predictable, in other words, dodging them is not terribly hard. In fact, they are also the easiest to kill and disable without support. That is why the best PvP teams tend to have non-Escort support vessels knowing that a team full of Escorts may find themselves destroyed quicker than one that has a balanced team.
You may also want to visit the Federation Shipyard forum, there are some threads there that may be of interest to you. Here is the thread I started recently regarding Pure Federation Science build . In particular, I want to draw your attention to this ship as an example : USS Utopia NCC-176847
While this vessel is not an Escort, it can however counter your build far more effectively than an Escort can because all your weapons are Energy based. Here is how I would have approached you as a Science support vessel in the arena. I will ask the Escorts to hold off attacking you and will tackle you alone. Identifying that your Shield and Auxiliary are the two subsystems I want to focus on, I will activate ES II on approach at Aux = 130, pre buff subsystem targeting to Shields and Aux and fire both attacks 2 seconds after ES II started.
Your build does not have Hazard Emitters, which means you have no way to cut off the Energy Siphon that is designed to drain -31 from each of your subsystems for a wopping 24 seconds. But because you have excellent power insulation (almost 130 by my calculation), you should be able to withstand the ES II without too much trouble. Though the stacking drain of each subsystem targeting, which drains -43 each will start to add up. This is on top of Plasmonic Leech which is designed to pull another -20 to each of your subsystem. Though your power insulation should protect you against 60% of the stated amounts. Nevertheless, right from the top, all of your 4 subsystem will be under some power stress - nothing crippling yet, thanks to your excellent power insulation. There is however a 20% of chance that your Shield and/or Aux could be knocked off immediately due to the disable effect of subsystem targeting, but we will assume this did not happen. So far you can already see this is a very different approach compared to the way Escorts would have come on you.
Being the only target within your firing range and seeing how I started to open fire on you with highly charged Tetryon Beams (Note that as I approach you, all my subsystems would have reached their maximum power level : W = 125 (really is 150), S=130, E = 125, A =130), I will further attempt to attract your aggro by tractoring you. This tractor also has a very severe shield drain built in due to a purple tractor beam doff handling it while the Tetryon Beams have a corrosive effect on shields - you will undoubtedly retaliate and fire back - how dare this tiny little Sci ship would attack a Cruiser alone. Truth to be told, I want you to target me alone because your very powerful FAW with 7 Polaron Beam Arrays buffed by APA is going to be your undoing. In fact, I will purposely attack your broadside where all your beams can reach me. I will wait till I see you activate APA and FAW because at that point, you lose control of your beam attacks as FAW is a fully automated attack where you have no control. On my end, I will buff up my FBP III and maximize its deflective factor to 1.6 meaning all your attacks will be magnified by 160% before 50% of which is directly returned to your hull while the other 50% will hit your shields like a normal attack would.
This vessel is the most heavily shielded out there, with the damage resistance in effect, you are literaly shooting at a ship with over 200K in effective total shields - so it will take you quite a while to work though all the shields. But while you are at it, you will notice the FBP III quickly melting your hull. I estimate your 7 beam FAW III output to be just over 20K DPS per second. 20K X 1.6 = 32K of returned damage, which will also quickly collapse one of your shield facing. Meanwhile, your damage resistance would be affected by Firing on my Mark, wiping out all your damage resistance. I estimate you will die within 3 seconds of starting FAW III via 32K X 3 seconds = 96K in damage before you even realize what happened. But even if you manage to escape, which I doubt because you do not have the speed to do so, the Escorts would have finish you off at that point.
Note, I purposely did not want to target your weapons subsystem to begin with because I want your fire power as intact as possible to maximize your FAW III. And assumed you managed to survive the FBP of your own FAW III, you would notice your Aux power is severely limited, rendering your TSS2 very ineffective or outright inoperable if you hit A2B before beginning your attack because the 5 points of aux power which A2B saved would have long been drained away by the Plasmonic Leech. Even if you were to hit RSP II, the Feedback Pulse has a 50% shield bypass which will continue to pound away your hull while your FAW III continue to fire away. Instinctively, you will try to run away in panic though at that point, it would be impossible for you to run, without EPtE and a slow ship.
Long story short, Beam Boats, just like double tap vapers are extremely susceptible at killing themselves when hitting on buffed FBP III. Beam boats may frustrate Escorts but with a little adaptation, the more versatile Science vessels can easily target your weakness and lure you into traps that will pierce your defenses. As you take part in more arena matches, especially against organized premades, you will see the challenges of surviving in PvP, which is definitely more than just DPS.
Nice!
I like you, that is the way to go! Some of your fellow Starfleet like myself often patrol Kerrat as well. I am sure we would love to have you help us baiting the Klingons there.
I know you were an Tac, But just saying being an engineer you will survive longer to deal more damage over time. I have seen some nasty Eng builds that can tank Escorts and destroy them.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Sure you can be happy. Don't let any of this stop you. Especially not this part.
Take your enemies hull values. That represents the amount of damage that you need to land on an opponent. Pay particular attention to the word "land". You may call this number "damage needed".
Take the number of enemy deaths and multiply that number by the enemies hull values. That is the actual amount of damage that you landed on enemy hulls. You may call this "being useful".
Take the difference between the following two values; "being useful" and "damage done".
You may call this "not being useful".
You should be able to use those values to come up with all sorts of exciting stats. WAY more exciting than DPS. Stats that almost mean something.
Well they do mean something. I bet you'll sort it out.
It's fun to watch them trying to kill me. When their vaunted decloak-and-alpha goes virtually unnoticed (seriously, takes me a second to even realize they're trying again - sort of like an annoying mosquito bite), they get all flustered and start stalking me. Then, when they think they have me in a compromising position (i.e. when I'm already engaged with 3 or 4 borg cubes - I'm farming, after all) they drop all their Sci TRIBBLE on me and try to spike me into the ground. I just shake it off, target them and unload.
Get a klink or rommie down to 50% hull in under 10 seconds and they run like little girls.
RCK
Can I count pet deaths? Some matches, I just fly around shooting every pet (and targetable non-player object) I can find while trying to avoid shooting at any players. Can really boost my damage numbers that way...and...I like to think I'm being helpful. Or is it a case that I'm just trolling carriers? I forget...but it's wheeeeeee!
One thing to keep in mind is that BoPs have a rather hard time trying to solo-run folks, especially folks in tanky cruisers or carriers. Usually it's only the best BoP pilots that can take out skilled players all by themselves on a decloak run. That's why BoPs like to pair up, to compensate for their inherent squishiness by attacking in greater numbers. There aren't many opponents that can successfully fend off in-tandem decloak attacks from 2-3 BoP attackers (in-tandem meaning they time their attacks to hit when there's a weakness in the enemy defenses). Some of my best experiences in Ker'rat in my BoP have been when flying alongside good BoP pilots.
It sound to me like you've come up against some pretty bad players
Your build looks good but don't be deluded into thinking every match will go in your favour
I'm a TRIBBLE pvp player and so far no ship with beams equipped has even got my shield facig down in the 2 year before I had my break for them game and in the weeks since I've been back let alone got through to my hull
Even an A2B scimitar with 5 tac consoles and god knows how many beams going isn't that effective
I'm no pro so don't count my OPINION for anything
There are quite a few folks that aren't actually trying to kill somebody in Ker'rat. They're just working on their timings for various things for when they're in the queues. So it's not necessarily a case that he's come up against bad players...but just players that don't really care if he dies or not - he's just some random target that's there to help them work on things that matter to them.
Like I said don't count my opinion
Kerry is a strange place you get people who dot fight back(farmers) then you have others who think it's life and death or they have money on who's going to die or you've just killed a family member by killing them
Wasn't dismissing what you were saying in the least - was just adding to what you were saying in regard to the OP.
1. Against average or moderately competent players I do well. My combination of "tankiness" and constant pressure damage from my A2B beam assault tends to wear down lesser opponents while keeping me safely in one piece.
2. I do well 1v1, however, when ganged-up on by 3 or more players I inevitably get crushed. But it does take them some effort, and I definitely dish-out as much as I take. It's just hard to beat 3+ ships working in a coordinated fashion.
3. Where I fall down completely is against elite players. Escorts are rarely a problem - their alpha spike damage only tickles my shields. However, the constant hit-and-run while I try to chase their much faster ships gets a bit repetitive. Against elite player cruisers (e.g. those funky new Rommie birds), however, I find that I hold my own for a while but inevitably lose a war of attrition.
4. Overall, I find I'm missing that final "punch" to knock out targets. I can wear their shields to nothing and get them down to below 50% hull. But finishing them off is usually a challenge, especially if they can escape me without having to engage EM.
Maybe I need to slot a tractor to exert some control over my targets. Anyway, still learning as I go along, so...
RCK
Indeed. Today I ran into a classic "glass cannon" BOP. This guy would decloak and unload with BO1, BO3, PSW, the works. Once he caught me off guard and I was toast. The second time I was able to EM out of the shockwave blast perimeter, pop RSP2 and return fire.
And here's where it gets interesting: I had him below 50% hull in under 5 seconds. In fact, if he hadn't outrun me he'd have been toast. I asked him about it in chat and he admitted he runs his BOP without any heal abilities. Everything is about that alpha strike, and he knows he's a "glass cannon" in every sense of the term. He lives off of that surprise-gotcha maneuver, and if he fails - and if I get a lock on him for more than a few seconds - he's dead.
I guess if your goal is to build a ship that can sneak-kill a target quickly then it's a viable strategy. But I prefer a more well-rounded solution, one that can both survive in PvP and still sail through ESTFs and other PvE content.
This guy wouldn't last 5 seconds in something like HOE, or if he did he wouldn't add much to the mission, so...different strokes.
RCK
Do what i done with my Fleet Excelsior, switch to single cannons (Phaser or Anti Proton) up front and turrets at the back, use Attack Pattern Omega cycled with Evasive Maneuvers and EPtE, its enough to keep up with most runners.
Get rid of one of those flow capacitors and get your hands on one of those dilithium mine neutroniums with added turn along with a dilithium mine RCS console with added armor, it adds just enough turn rate to get those front cannons to bear quicker.
Then, go for Directed Energy Modulation and get the marion frances dulmur doff...and keep hammering that target, you'll win any attrition war just by the shield pass damage, you'll also find your power drain on weapons wont be as bad as a full beam set up so you will be able to afford bumping your weapons power down a touch and putting a little more into shields and engines.
A cannon built Excelsior is a mean ship. I've seen me getting 1st place (which admittedly due to DEM is a skewed score) in many arena FvK pvp's. If you want to see what it can do, contact me ingame and i'll 1v1 ya, ingame name is @Victor1st
I don't think one would need the marion doff for cannons do they? The drain on cannons is really small compared to beams and even with beams I thought it was really for beam overload because BO doesn't use over capped weapons power. Also Marion is soooooo expensive...
I look at the scoreboard (for kill count and damage to hull) and parsed logs (for overall damage).
If I have a high damage overall, high kill count, and high hull damage, I consider my contribution great.
If I have high damage overall, low kill count, and low hull damage, I consider it a poor contribution. It means I did a lot of shield damage, and not much hull damage or killing.
If I have a low damage overall, high kill count, and low hull damage, it can really be both ways. It could mean that I killed my targets too quickly for them to heal. Or, it could mean I killed targets that were already weakened. Or, that I got credited for the kill when I didn't do much. In that case, I would probably check the DPS to give me a better understanding of my performance.
If I have a low damage overall, high kill count, and high hull damage, I would consider that my contribution great, since it is likely that my targets were not able to heal themselves fast enough.
That said, I stopped paying attention to that stuff awhile ago. My build has changed little for over a year, as I like it's current performance. Though, I did make some big changes to my BOFF layout. But I don't think it's going to change much.
Increases the drain proc for both the Polaron beams and the Plasmonic Leech. All good A2B boats run the Leech with maxed-out Flow Caps, though lately I've moved the Leech to Sci and slotted a Fleet Neutronium in Eng for survivability.
RCK
And their rarity in PvP play is why I continue to use them. Everybody is geared up to resist massive DPS spike damage, so when they run into me - and I start sucking them dry with a relentless bombardment of Mark 12 Fleet Polaron Beams (Acc x2, Dmg x2), they don't have a clue what to do.
Sadly, I'm now running only a single FC console since running without armor in PvP is suicide.
RCK
Sounds like you ran into Minimax or Julius. There aren't many BoP left in Kerrat since LoR, much less those who still use the PSW + double BO Combo. If there is no heal at all, it's probably Minimax. Julius still carries HE2.
Minimax's build is pure PvP. Without heal, he can't survive in an eSTF.
I question the effectiveness of Polaron based weapons. They are not rare in Kerrat, in fact many Klingons carry them as their energy weapon of choice because Polaron is one of the few types that can get additional boost from ship gear as opposed to just tactical consoles. Those who have the Jem Hadar set gets a nice boost to Polaron damage.
As for its proc, I hardly even notice it. Even if your proc states that it would lower power by 45, it probably only does about 20 or so, a little less than half for a few seconds. Meanwhile, I run a ship that max out subsystem powers across the board so shield power is usually at 130+ with buffer, see these screenshots :
Out of Combat, in Attack Mode, Shield Power = 57
Then entering combat :
In Combat, in Attack Mode, Shield Power =130+ Notice here, EPtE expires, so engine power is slightly below 125 but not by much
Shield Power calculated as follows : 57 + 26 (EPtS I) + 31 (ES II) + 27 (Plasmonic Leech) = 141 Drain resist buffer : 141-130 = 11
When ES II briefly expires, A2B goes up : 57 + 26 (EPtS I) + 56 (A2B) + 27 (Plasmonic Leech) = 166 , readjust down to invisible cap of 150 Drain resist buffer = 150-130= 20
So when A2B expires, ES II is pretty much ready to fire again.
In battle against a full armada alone : Maximum Power everywhere
Notice Weapons Power remain at 125 even with 5 Energy Weapons constantly firing away? There is no DEM and no Marion involved here. What you are seeing is power resist buffer built up to the invisible cap of 150. So even if the Polaron does proc, once in a blue moon, at best you are going to hit the power resist buffer that is built into each subsystem. With Power Insulation over 100, most elite PvPers won't feel a thing given how rampant A2B build is. You will take out their Aux but for Escorts, that's a nuisance at best.