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Religion after First Contact

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  • kirksplatkirksplat Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Well science is a process, not a fixed body of information, people or authority.

    I may be misinterpreting this sentence. But, there are a ton of historians of science who would cringe at this statement. Time and time again, when we study how science was actually done, there is never anything resembling an agreed upon "scientific method." Instead, some of the most common features are:

    1. The vested interests of patrons, which undoubtedly shapes the content of science.
    2. The people and authorities of the field who demarcate the outsiders from the insiders.
    3. The role of subjectivity, imagination, and sheer faith in a theory that influences how a scientist sees the world.
    4. How a scientific worldview is similar to every other worldview. The context shapes the content. Personally, I like the scientific one the best.

    Galileo had no definitive evidence to support Copernicanism v. Brahe's work-around. He had faith in a theory.
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  • lincolninspacelincolninspace Member Posts: 1,843 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kirksplat wrote: »
    I may be misinterpreting this sentence. But, there are a ton of historians of science that would cringe at this statement. Time and time again, when we study how science was actually done, there is never anything resembling an agreed upon "scientific method." Instead, some of the most common features are:

    1. The vested interests of patrons, which undoubtedly shape the content of science.
    2. The people and authorities of the field that demarcate the outsiders from the insiders.
    3. The role of subjectivity, imagination, and sheer faith in a theory that influences how a scientist sees the world.
    4. How a scientific worldview is similar to every other worldview. The context shapes the content. Personally, I like the scientific one the best.

    Galileo had no definitive evidence to support Copernicanism v. Brahe's work-around. He had faith in a theory.

    Sadly this is often true. I find myself reading headline news about what the latest study claims, only to scratch my head at the methods used to draw the conclusion it points to. Science should never be accepted with blind faith. It is meant to be questioned. About the only solidly conclusive scientific predictions are mathematical ones. Good math has proven the existence of heavenly bodies before they were viewed by telescopes or used to triangulate the distance of heavenly bodies.
    A TIME TO SEARCH: ENTER MY FOUNDRY MISSION at the RISA SYSTEM
    Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
  • mistertwidmistertwid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I think one important thing to get down first is how the aliens in your story think. Whether God(s) exist or not, human religion is largely a consequence of how our minds deal with pattern recognition and sense of presence. If you think about it, there's not any particular reason that a non-Terran species would even have to have religious inclinations. Say if our pattern recognition were purely at face value (but we maintained our curiosity) and we didn't have that neurological quirk where we sometimes feel like there is something there when it isn't, then there really would be no impetus for religion to exist. We wouldn't have a body of rituals that state do x and y and sometimes z will happen, unless you pronounced it wrong and didn't jump three times. Remember, superstitions are a form of ritual that "worked" at least once (that's the pattern recognition). Our sense of presence is probably just a throw-back to our primate ancestors who benefited by mild paranoia (Oh, there really is a big predator over there...)

    That said, you might have to flesh out a bit on the alien religion to figure out what would happen.

    As a comparison to Earth, I imagine that people would remain religious, but the following would occur:

    Abrahamic faiths would, as was said earlier, interpret in God's image to mean sentience. They would also see the Bible as more allegorical than literal (which is a trend anyway. Uptick in being less religious doesn't mean abandonment of the beliefs involved), but with a fringe that exists now anyway saying that aliens and demons are the same. Final outcome: Lots of missionary work and ecumenicalism. As far as Jesus or Muhammad, the aliens might have a similar historical figure, and the aliens and humans would agree that they were the same person there for the same reasons. If not, then FC was God's way of bringing salvation to the aliens. We still get to be special in a very large galaxy.

    Dharmic faiths probably wouldn't change much and go, "well, yeah. So what?" and maybe add aliens to the things you can reincarnate as.

    New Age faiths would get a bit of a boost. Though hopefully they would ditch astrology rather than reform it for local constellation patterns (again, pattern recognition. Aliens might not even have a concept of constellations).

    Deism would also get a boost, as would pantheism, as would atheism.

    Final outcome for polytheistic religions- syncretism. There's already more than one god so why not pray to the alien ones too? I see that happening especially for Wicca, which seems to enjoy novelty.
  • mistertwidmistertwid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I also realize I probably sound like an atheist. I'm not. I'm a non-specific theist bordering on deist.
  • sander233sander233 Member Posts: 3,992 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Personally:

    I believe that institutionalized science and organized religion are fundamentally the same sort of thing.

    I believe that at least as many atrocities have been committed in the name of scientific advancement as have been committed in the name of any religion.

    I believe that "For God," "For Country" and "For Science" are the three most terrifying phrases I've ever heard.

    I believe that the universe has a bit too much order and not enough entropy to not have been made that way by design.

    I believe that "And God Said: Let There Be Light" is at least as plausible as everything from quasars to koala bears exploding out of some hyperdense ball of protomatter via the "Big Bang."

    I believe that there's a good reason why physicists spent the last few decades looking for something called a "God Particle."

    I believe that a structure as complex as a cell (complete with self-replicating DNA) assembling itself from a puddle of proteins is about as likely as a tornado tearing through a junkyard and leaving behind a shiny new 747.

    I believe that once that first cell exists, there is absolutely nothing to stop it from eventually evolving into a race of sapient humanoids.

    I believe that out of all the many billions of planets just in our galaxy, the idea that ours is the only one to have gained a bunch of big-brained tool users is kinda limiting.

    I believe that whatever people believe about a higher power would not be terribly affected if they discovered that we are not the only planet with lifeforms smart enough to have these thoughts.

    I don't believe that Star Trek is an accurate picture of the future for my species, but I sincerely hope to be proven wrong.


    Edit: also, I'm an evangelical Christian and regular church attender. Because if you're gonna believe in something, it might as well be a God who loves you and wants to see you in heaven someday.
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  • mistertwidmistertwid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Well, just as a counter to that, physicists hate the term God Particle, since it's misleading. It's a Higgs Boson. The media kinda screwed that one up and scientists cringe when they hear it. But, you do mention something interesting in that people's beliefs would largely be unaffected. Religion would change to accommodate FC, but as you ably demonstrate, the existence of alien life is almost a given, even among religious folk (the real question is how common is sentient life, not whether we are alone or not).
  • mistertwidmistertwid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Things to consider with your aliens:

    1) Do they believe in a soul?
    2) Do they believe the soul is eternal?
    3) Do they believe their souls are unique?
    4) Do they believe in a god or gods? (Belief in both some sort of deity AND a soul is the most common, but they can be mutually exclusive- Sumerians believed in gods, but not spiritual immortality. Buddhists can believe in gods if they want, but Buddhism is at its core non-theistic).
    5) If they have god(s), how do they define what a god is? This is perhaps the most important question. God is a generic term in English but can mean vastly different things in context. The Abrahamic God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, transcendent, immortal, noncorporeal and moral. By stark contrast, the gods of Europe in various mythologies might be omnipotent, but not necessarily (specialized), might be omniscient, but not necessarily (Odin had to sacrifice for his omniscience. Hera finds out about Zeus' new thang after he got his monkey on), not omnipresent at all, might be transcendent but are essentially personifications of nature and therefore very much a part of the physical world, can die (Norse gods in Ragnarok, Irish gods killing each other, Cronos slaying Uranos), totally corporeal, at least at will (Zeus with his new thang) and they are capricious. They don't necessarily offer a moral code, and even if they do, they're in a polytheistic model and might only expect the people who worship them primarily to obey their specific rules, if they even care. Also, how do those gods interact with their worshipers?

    Edited to add: The Abrahamic god created the Universe. The European gods are a product of it, in most cases.
  • mistertwidmistertwid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Also, what does eternal entail? Our concept of it is everlasting life, but they could easily see eternity to be defined scientifically. If time is a dimension, then we are eternal by default, even if we cease to exist completely prior to birth and after death, much in the way that we cease to exist where our skin ends. Another part of that is from the perspective of a photon. When you go at the speed of light, subjective time stops. If you were a photon, the moment you were created is the same moment is the same as every moment of your existence. That is to say, we see light moving, but to a photon, its entire path is merely the shape of its body.

    Which is also interesting because eternal deities are usually associated with light.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Anyways though, getting back to the question of how to write the people of the formerly pre-warp civilization, the first thing to do is to sit down and decide what the people beleive. If you don't you end up with something like Vaal and that was one of the lamest episodes ever.... the Eymorg are another rather distubing example of how that sort of thing can go wrong...
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  • mistertwidmistertwid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Oh! And there are examples of life on Earth that are essentially biologically immortal. See Turritopsis nutricula and Planarian flatworms. If your alien species qualifies for biological immortality, that's a bit of a spiritual game changer. If they're like T. nutricula, then they might have a concept of reincarnation in the same physical body, since T. nutricula has to revert back to the polyp (infant) state.
  • mistertwidmistertwid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Anyways though, getting back to the question of how to write the people of the formerly pre-warp civilization, the first thing to do is to sit down and decide what the people beleive. If you don't you end up with something like Vaal and that was one of the lamest episodes ever.... the Eymorg are another rather distubing example of how that sort of thing can go wrong...

    I agree with this. What the aliens in question actually believe is of central importance to how it goes down, and vice versa.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    How about religious beliefs that humans never practiced?

    It seems as if the fundamental elements of faith is based on 'wishful thinking', as in believing that reality is better than it actually is. Infinite paradise after death, an all-powerful loving being who is personally dedicated to you, etc. But the problem is... have humans(especially IRL) believed it all? Is there any faith out there of the same nature of these beliefs that we have never adhered to as a society? Is there any faith left that might feel truly 'alien' if an STO alien species has it?

    Can we actually give an alien species a faith that we have never covered ourselves?
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    The Federation may be a generally Athiestic society, but it's not devoutly so.

    I honestly never viewed the Federation as an Athiestic society, since the Federation had never rejected religion or denounced deities. The closest we got is "Why does God need with a Starhip" and the Captains exposing the truth that aliens were involved. But they never once said "there is no god(s)".

    To me, the Federation itself embraced Religious Pluralism. Where everyone inside the Federation respected others beliefs.
    Some interesting points of view, nice to hear from you guys. Just to quickly respond to azurianstar, the ideas I'm working on are not centred on this topic, but it having a religion on the planet in question will be central to the plot. I'd like to avoid an insensitive portrayal of religious people, which if I am not careful will be the result of the kind of plot I have in mind and that I've never really understood "faith" - usually responding to the idea like Data trying to understand sarcasm.

    There has been quite a variety of religious views in Star Trek (not just in aliens, remember Kirk's line in Who Mourns for Apollo?: "we don't need gods anymore, we find the one quite sufficient" and don't forget Bread and Circuses) so there does seem to be a plurality of opinion, though perhaps more nuanced that today's stark divisions. It always evolves, and I've been pondering how. No doubt in 100 different ways, to each according to their personal needs.

    Small Correction, the Episode was, "Who Mourns for Adonai" not Apollo. ;)

    Anyhow, I was responding to your OP in how people would react to First Contact. And my point is that religion isn't going to really dictate their response. Diversity is so wide people will react in many ways.

    You can do like the savages, bowing to the "diety" upon arrival.
    You can have people run in fear, thinking the newcomer is a demon.
    You can have a society that welcomes all.

    There are enough examples in Trek how they handled religions and how not to offend.
    Perhaps if I could be more exact. Most changes in religion come through gradual societal changes. Most churches slowly absorbed evolution into adjusted teachings as evidence for it grew and fighting it became more and more difficult. Aliens would be quite sudden. How do you see the Star Trek universe being absorbed into your religion? An act of creation on 100s of worlds yet unmentioned and seemingly more advanced yet no knowledge of your god?

    Simple answer, look at my response to Hawkman. The Federation isn't going to tell me (or others) to stop believing, instead they would work with my beliefs and educate me on other's beliefs so that there wouldn't be any religious disagreements. (I.E. my religion is better than yours. Or "your religion is offensive since its contradicts my beliefs).


    Anyhow, if you want to put a religion in your story, see what they did in DS9 with the Ferengi and the Bajorans and how they reacted. If that alien race is reacting to a first contact, then simply question what does their religion dictate. As I said above, do they drop to their knees? Do they hide? Do they run to church / temple? Do they welcome with open arms?

    But to me, you should focus on their societal reaction than a religious one. Especially since you said yourself that you didn't understand religion.

    nynik wrote: »
    However, I think there could be an unfortunate distinction between humanoid and non-humanoid lifeforms. Speaking from a Christian perspective, if we were created in God's image, then what does a Horta represent? Although sentient, does it have a soul?

    The Bible never says that man is the only life in the universe, in fact is states there is life other than man. So a Horta is a Horta. Though there might be a conflict if an alien race claimed they were created in gods image.
  • isthisscienceisthisscience Member Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    There are a lot of points I'd love to respond to, but I'll restrain myself and keep to the point!
    orangeitis wrote: »
    How about religious beliefs that humans never practiced?

    It seems as if the fundamental elements of faith is based on 'wishful thinking', as in believing that reality is better than it actually is. Infinite paradise after death, an all-powerful loving being who is personally dedicated to you, etc. But the problem is... have humans(especially IRL) believed it all? Is there any faith out there of the same nature of these beliefs that we have never adhered to as a society? Is there any faith left that might feel truly 'alien' if an STO alien species has it?

    Can we actually give an alien species a faith that we have never covered ourselves?

    Now that is an interesting point. All religious ideas covered in Star Trek have been redressing of human faiths of one culture or another. Though I suppose this is the eternal problem of trying to imagine alien when we all so coloured by human understanding. When we try to think really alien, we just end up drawing on our knowledge of foreign or ancient societies.

    Most human faiths are driven through questions of creation & death. Maybe to think of something alien, we have to ignore the key questions people ask - where do we come from and where do we go?
  • amahoodamahood Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    delete post please
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Well if that's what you are looking for, then why not a religion around one of the 5 (or 6) senses?

    A Color
    A Harmonic
    A Smell
    Sight (like a different infrared signature)

    Maybe something like around Height or Mathematics (numbers dictate policy).
  • edited August 2013
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  • amahoodamahood Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    delete post please
  • edited August 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • isthisscienceisthisscience Member Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Interesting view on V'Ger crashdragon, I never quite looked at it in that light!

    I've been trying to sit back and just read the ideas people are putting forward, but I just want to make clear that "You don't have to be religious, or atheistic to enjoy either" is not in doubt. I'm not quite sure why, but a few people are feeling the need occasionally stand up and say "world peace" and this is what concerns me more to be honest; that it is near impossible these days to have a good debate on religious ideas without mud slinging from both sides and when you finally do, everyone else seems to assume you're mud slinging anyway and wants to stop it or reduce it to platitudes. With this thread I just wanted people's individual views on how a religion might change in the context of first contact to help me with ideas on an aspect of a foundry mission. If Star Trek has any stance on religious issues, its that they could discuss it without making judgments or going uber-defensive.
  • wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I like this thread. I think markhawkman is right - the possibilities for what an alien might believe are so wide that all you can do is try specific examples. A few that occur to me:

    Among UFO investigators there's a sizeable evangelical Christian faction that believe they exist but are demons, not aliens. I doubt that would change immediately if the aliens were actually to appear in public. There are no doubt many good stories to be had from the question of whether and why they might change their views later on.

    Other Christians (at least, those strict enough in their beliefs to worry about something like that) would probably be very upset by First Contact if it was the Vulcans. Think of the famous passage from 1 Corinthians:
    If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
    If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
    If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

    So by that definition, the Vulcans, who've just saved everybody's lives, have basically had it. Of course, one possible way to regard that is that the Vulcans are kidding themselves... http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Menagerie,_Part_I_%28episode%29

    Religion and "scientific fact" can be hard to separate. Generally, people believe that the tenets of their religion are actually facts, not some peculiar kind of "spiritually truths" or what's-his-name's "separate domains". (People may think that some part of the Bible is metaphorical, of course, but that's not what I mean - the thing they've decided it's a metaphor for is still taken to be fact, even if the passage itself isn't). The aforementioned Malcorians are an example - a religious belief is a statement about reality, and so (if testable) a scientific theory. Of course, trouble arises if such a theory fails an experimental test but the believers won't abide by that, as with the whole creationism-in-schools argument.
    The Vulcans' own religion is a good example of it going the other way - a religion shaped by embarrassing scientific fact, i.e. the whole katra business.

    The Klingons have a religion that basically requires them to do what they always want to do anyway. Which doesn't make much of a plot, by itself, but is very much what many humans have.

    The Borg's weird superstitions, about the Undine and the Omega Particle, are what you might feel a computer system would come up with if it started with a built-in purpose (perfection of the species, optimal efficiency and so on), lost (or in this case, ate) its makers and supervisors, and went slowly dotty from too many cosmic rays. Which is presumably the idea!
  • erikmodierikmodi Member Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Watch Babylon 5. Seriously. The show has an amazing look at religion (with debatable proof of God or proof of lack of God, depending on who you talk to and how you interpret things.) Two the most fascinating aspects: Foundationism, described as a religion that sprung up on Earth after first contact, with the basic core premise that God is something too big to fit into words. It borrows bits and pieces from various Earth and extraterrestrial faiths. The second is a group of monks who take up residence on the station, specifically so they can complete a great work that involves learning all they can about alien religions. Their belief is that God reveals himself to all species, in different ways, and by learning about all faiths, they come closer to truly understanding the One Behind Them All. But I think the best thing is in the second or third episode of the series, where the station is hosting a religious festival, allowing each alien race to showcase their dominant religious belief. Commander Sinclair has no idea what to do to showcase Earth's "dominant religion." At the end of the episode, he has the alien ambassadors meet him in one of the cargo bays. He introduces them first to a Catholic priest, then an atheist, then a Lakota Sioux shaman, then a Greek Orthodox. . . and the camera pans down a line of DOZENS, possibly over a hundred people, each obviously of a different faith. In my opinion, one of the most gorgeous shots in any TV show ever.

    As far as Star Trek goes. . . well, you have start separating Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek from Star Trek made after he died. During Star Trek: The Motion Picture's Development Hell, the original script Gene pitched involved an insane alien computer attacking Earth, and the revelation that this computer was what humans had constantly referred to as God. The devout Catholic head of Paramount Studios was less than pleased. GR probably wouldn't have been very pleased with the Bajorans/Prophets/Pah'Wraiths thing.

    As far as religion goes. . . it's your story, you can treat it pretty much however you want. The thing is, what kind of story do you want to tell about religion? Do you want to tell a story about the inflexible doctrines of faith taken too seriously can be destructive to its people? Then the reaction of this species to discovering aliens would be hostile. God created OUR planet, our species in HIS image, therefore no other life can exist in the universe, since HE didn't tell us about it. These aliens, therefore, CANNOT exist, or are false creations and must be destroyed. As the aliens realize that attacking such a technologically superior force is doomed to failure, mass suicides result as they feel their God has abandoned them, or they throw their lives away in hopeless attacks to give their lives for the glory of their deity. Or do you want to tell a story about the evolution of religion, embracing and accepting all as children of the Divine? In that case, the aliens welcome first contact, ready to learn at the feet of wiser beings sent to them by God for the purpose of uplifting them to the next phase of existence. Do you want to tell a story about the "One True Faith" and the lengths people will go to for conversion? Then the aliens react by endlessly preaching their gospels, and grow angry when they find a lack of converts, and begin taking more and more drastic measures to bring the Word to the heathens, whether they like it or not.

    The starting point has to be, what religion do the aliens practice? What are its basic tenets, and how literally does this race take them? Is it a Creation religion, with the Holy Text describing in detail how God created the World? If so, do the people take this literally, precluding the notion of other worlds and other species? Do they consider it more metaphorical, thus allowing the existence of things not specifically mentioned (like alien beings?) If the religion does allow for the existence of other beings, are they also considered God's creatures? If not, does it just mean that they are "unworthy" of the Truth of the Faith, or does it mean they are "unworthy" to exist? Does the religion teach humility before the wonders of Creation, or does it preach that all that exists was given to the Chosen by God to do with as they will? Is there only one accepted version of this faith, or do different sects practice different variations on the theme? If there is only one interpretation, does First Contact change that; i.e., does the revelation of the existence of alien beings cause some people to accept them into the existing belief structure, while others reject them as "against God?" What are the results of this "First Schism" on the people? If there are various sects, do some accept aliens while others reject them, or do the disagreeing groups find common ground in their acceptance or rejection of the outsiders? Or is First Contact just an excuse to try and prove an opposition "wrong" about their interpretation of the scriptures? Is the arrival of aliens not mentioned in the scriptures the final blow against an ailing religious establishment that has already lost the bulk of its public support, and do the few remaining True Believers quietly relinquish their faith, or do they fight back?

    You don't need to craft an entire religion from stem to stern, but you do need at least the broad strokes set up, because that will inform what kind of story you're telling and how this alien race reacts to First Contact. But probably the most important thing to consider is that the Federation simply doesn't make (intentional) First Contact until they consider a society ready, and a society whose religion would tear the populace apart upon revelation of alien beings is most emphatically NOT ready for First Contact. However, if such a species has clung to that kind of faith despite developing the technology to create warp drive, the Federation may not have much of a choice. . .
  • erikmodierikmodi Member Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    wombat140 wrote: »
    Other Christians (at least, those strict enough in their beliefs to worry about something like that) would probably be very upset by First Contact if it was the Vulcans. Think of the famous passage from 1 Corinthians:
    If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
    If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
    If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

    So by that definition, the Vulcans, who've just saved everybody's lives, have basically had it. Of course, one possible way to regard that is that the Vulcans are kidding themselves... http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Menagerie,_Part_I_%28episode%29

    Well, the thing is, Vulcans DO have emotions. That's the whole point, and something a lot of fans (and most Star Trek writers) seem to forget. The whole reasons Vulcans practice pure logic is that they believed, thousands of years ago, that if they didn't reign in their violent tendencies, their homeworld would be reduced to a radioactive asteroid belt in short order.

    My favorite thing about the Reboot movie is that one of Sarek's first lines is admitting this fundamental truth about Vulcans: "Emotions run deep within our race. More deeply than in humans, in many ways." According to the Vulcan code, FEELING emotion isn't forbidden. Even EXPRESSION emotion may not technically be forbidden, though that's certainly where seemingly all Vulcans aspire to be. What is forbidden is ACTING upon emotion. A good Vulcan should, LOGICALLY, consider the emotions of the emotionally-motivated people around him when making decisions. Witness the TOS episode The Galileo Seven for a perfect example of why refusing to factor emotion into logic is a bad idea.

    Again, witness Sarek in the reboot. He first tells Spock he married Amanda because it was logical, and then later tells him he married her because he loved her. Both statements are true: It is logical to marry the woman you love.
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Psst that's Sarek not Surak. :P
  • erikmodierikmodi Member Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Psst that's Sarek not Surak. :P

    I'm fairly certain I have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing to see here, move along.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    *waves hand* this is not the typo you are looking for. :P
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • wombat140wombat140 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    no accnouitng for the huamn brian :)

    Never quite sure where the Vulcans fall between "are capable of emotion if they don't watch out" and "actually do have emotions like anyone else but would die rather than admit it". Actually, I don't think the script writers were ever quite sure either. Anyway... if it's that hard to tell, the humans would probably make that mistake too, at least to begin with.

    Another idea that occurred to me:
    As Kirksplat remarked, science as actually conducted on Earth isn't necessarily all about the scientific method and abiding by the result of your experiment. That happens some of the time, of course, or it'd never have got anywhere; but it's also about reputation, who you know, how convincing a talker you are and what you're prepared to do to get a research fellowship. Plenty of wrong theories have been turned into "accepted fact" without the bother of proof, whether by seniority, logical elegance, vested interest or sheer lung power. And of course, what many lay people know (or believe) about the sciences is a different kettle of fish altogether... See where I'm going here?

    Supposing you had a civilisation with a caste of trained scientists acting as a ruling priesthood, like the mediaeval Church? Controlling education and publication, only telling the public whatever pre-digested facts they needed them to know and believe implicitly; all the complicated stuff is kept for properly qualified people. And scientists not being saints, some of the ideas they agreed among themselves and revealed to the public might come from expediency rather than fact.

    It used to be a Known Fact that our Solar System's existence was a billion-to-one fluke and there were no planets elsewhere at all. If our little green professors thought that, and it was vitally important to them (as the theoretical basis for other things, say, or just as the theory the High Priest had built his reputation on), life might become a bit exciting for any aliens who landed...
  • pugdaddypugdaddy Member Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I'd like to get some insight from those people who are Trekkies and religious. As someone who is a Trek fan, and hence has thought about life on other worlds and interaction between humanities culture and religion and the cosmos in the event of contact with life beyond Eden... how do you think human religions and religious people react to First Contact? What do you think would change, how would views and teaching change, if at all?

    The social interaction between alien and human faiths really all depends on other factors. If we show up on their home-world and they are less developed, we are not as likely to feel threatened by their beliefs and some of us may actually ridicule them.
    If they park an armada in Earth orbit before we have a colony on another world, we would be more at awe of their culture.
    If we meet in space or a middle ground, the exchange of ideas would be more even-handed.

    The Catholic Church has already stated that extraterrestrial beings probably exist and it's likely just a matter of time before we meet each other. The Church also stated the aliens are not Fallen from Grace, as are we Earthlings.

    Muslims have a long history of knowledge and mathematics. I'm sure they would be excited about the possible exchange of knowledge. I don't know enough about it to say what the Imams would dictate.

    Hindu beliefs are already open enough to accept beings from other worlds. Other faiths not based upon Authority could have a variety of responses. A mixed bag of fear and curiosity, again depending on the specific set of circumstances around the contact situation.

    Atheists are likely to be confused as to why the aliens even have spiritual or religious beliefs.

    In a First Contact scenario, some groups in America might be negative about it. Most likely, the same groups that promoted racist and homophobic ideals. Some more xenophobic groups might try to identify the alien home-world as Hell and the aliens themselves as demons. There is always going to be that fringe group of extremists, like the very few terrorists who give the millions of decent, regular Muslims a bad name.

    People from every faith would be interested in learning what spiritual beliefs the aliens hold true. Some people might quickly convert to the alien's faith. That is more likely if they show up on Earth or one of our space colonies and are obviously superior to us.

    Personally, I believe that Spirituality is the personal connection with non-material beings, places, and philosophies.
    Religion is sometimes about a specific ancient person's own connection with non-material beings, places, and philosophies.

    The aliens could be shamanic and non-dogmatic in their interactions with The Divine, causing some confusion and possible conflict with those Earth faiths which are more based upon a specific narrative set forth by a specific person and that discourage personal exploration of the spirit realm. If the aliens had a system of personal exploration of the Spirit World, it could greatly offend the sensibilities of some Earth faiths.


    [Graham Hancock's book, "Supernatural", really educated me on shamanism and the possible origin of ancient belief systems.]
  • stolustolu Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Isthisscience, check out "Speaker for the Dead" of the Ender's Game series (probably should read Ender's game first to know what's going on). The Pequeninos are aliens that cause one of the characters, who is a missionary, to reevaluate how he understands his faith and salvation. Really thought provoking stuff.

    The author does a really good job of getting your mind churning and will hopefully give you some more ideas on not just what a religion might look like, but how an entirely different life cycle of birth and death might shape a belief system.

    Good luck!
    "Crewman, your resume says you are telepathic. Then could you please explain to me why you failed in your attempt to confiscate contraband from the crew?!"
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    pugdaddy wrote: »
    Atheists are likely to be confused as to why the aliens even have spiritual or religious beliefs.
    Why? I'm an atheist, and I am well aware of a developing society's need to explain the world that they are 'awakening' to, especially before the society understands the nature of evidence. And I'm pretty sure that most skeptic rational secularists are aware of that too. As far as we know, it's a fundamental aspect of intelligent societies.

    The fact that someone rejects the claim that at least one god exists has no bearing on them understanding how or why religions work. I'd even go as far as to say they might have a better understanding of it, as they aren't inhibited by religious bias, so they wouldn't automatically think that the aliens are merely blasphemous demons out to suppress their beliefs, for instance.
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