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Would it really hurt that much...
bobtheyak
Member Posts: 374 Arc User
...to give all cloaking ships battle cloak?
Before you yell it down...consider that plenty of cloak-capable ships have battle cloak now. Tell me if I missed anything...but there aren't a lot of ships that still have normal cloak: Defiant, Gal-X, Negh'var, Vor'cha, Raptor, and apparently the Tal Shiar ships.
It seems like it wouldn't make much difference in overall balance to change their cloak to match the rest of cloaking ships. Not necessarily to facilitate hit and run, but rather to keep them from decloaking prematurely due to stray fire and team abilities.
This would be normal battlecloak rather than enhanced cloak of course, and the Fed ships would still have to equip the cloak console.
Just think about it before you scream "trade-off."
Before you yell it down...consider that plenty of cloak-capable ships have battle cloak now. Tell me if I missed anything...but there aren't a lot of ships that still have normal cloak: Defiant, Gal-X, Negh'var, Vor'cha, Raptor, and apparently the Tal Shiar ships.
It seems like it wouldn't make much difference in overall balance to change their cloak to match the rest of cloaking ships. Not necessarily to facilitate hit and run, but rather to keep them from decloaking prematurely due to stray fire and team abilities.
This would be normal battlecloak rather than enhanced cloak of course, and the Fed ships would still have to equip the cloak console.
Just think about it before you scream "trade-off."
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It's the Romulans that have all the battlecloaks.
The issue I have with having all cloak-capable ships having battlecloaks is an issue of balance. Just look at what's going on with all the big Romulan ships. . .due to the higher hull, they're actually able to risk cloaking while under fire and surviving. All it took was a higher base hull.
We don't need to unbalance the basics of the game even further.
B'rel Retrofit
Fleet B'rel Retrofit
T'varo Retrofit
Fleet T'varo Retrofit
~Battle Cloak
Hegh'ta
Hoh'SuS
Fleet Hoh'SuS
Fleet Norgh
Peghqu'
Ha'apax
Mirror Ha'apax
Fleet Ha'apax
Ha'nom
Mirror Ha'nom
Fleet Ha'nom
Ha'feh
Mirror Ha'feh
Fleet Ha'feh
D'deridex Retrofit
Fleet D'deridex Retrofit
Dhelan Retrofit
Fleet Dhelan Retrofit
Mogai Retrofit
Fleet Mogai Retrofit
Haakona
Falchion
Scimitar
Tulwar
Dainos
~Cloak
Dreadnought Cruiser
Tactical Escort Retrofit
Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit
Qin
Mirror Qin
Fleet Qin
Somraw Retrofit
Fleet Somraw
Negh'Var Heavy
Fleet Negh'Var
Vor'cha Retrofit
Mirror Vor'cha
Fleet Tor'Kaht
Kamarag Retrofit
Fleet Kamarag
Bortas
Command Bortasqu'
Tactical Bortasqu'
War Bortasqu'
K't'inga Retrofit
Fleet K't'inga Retrofit
Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser
Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer
They'd have to adjust the stats of those ~Cloak ships to reflect the ~Battle Cloak. They'd have to retcon the story to explain it. I don't see them doing the retcon and I highly doubt they could balance the stats.
A year ago I would have agreed that they'd need to adjust the stats to reflect the battle cloak, but there are so many new ships now that many of the 'older' ships are becoming obsolete, if they're not already.
As far as the story...Cryptic doesn't seem to care about canon or continuity anyway. Why treat this occasion any differently?
Cause they just used story as the reason for the Tal Shair boats having a weaker cloak.
I'm a big proponent of bringing older ships inline with newer ships - those are sales that Cryptic is potentially missing out on by having such discrepancies for many of them.
200k Dil Ships should be comparable to one another.
MU Ships should be comparable to 200k Dil Ships.
2k Zen Ships should be comparable to one another.
2.5k Zen Ships should be comparable to one another.
Lockbox Ships should be comparable to one another.
800 Lobi Ships should be comparable to one another.
Event Ships should be comparable to one another.
Fleet Ships...well, T1-5...the FSM...the 200k FC...yeah, that's definitely more complicated, meh.
And then with that mix, well - certain of the X Ships should be comparable with certain of the Y Ships.
The hierarchy which may once have been hiding amongst all the Ships is pretty much gone - it's just the latest and greatest for the most part.
With all the complaining about the Romulan boats, can you imagine what it will be like when/if they introduce the Cardassians? What about the Liberated Borg?
Course, that's somewhat mainly a PvP issue, eh? Cause folks can get by in almost whatever ship they want over in PvE. Yes, some ships are massively better - but they're all good enough.
Do you even Science Bro?
consider me convinced there should be no cloaks other then battle cloak, and enhanced battle cloak.
Each faction would have differences in their cloaks:
Romulans: Would remain unchanged.
Klingons: BoPs would probably get a boost to their stealth effectiveness. All other cloaking Klingon ships would gain all the benefits of a battle cloak EXCEPT being able to cloak under fire. So the turn rate bonus mostly. Also maybe give a boost to normal Klingon cloaks as well.
Federation: They would keep their cloak as a console, and would gain the ability to cloak under fire, and nothing else. No boost to effectiveness, no extra bonuses in cloak (like the turn rate bonus), nothing. Just cloaking under fire, that's it.
That lets everyone have something different. People get what they want, while not totally TRIBBLE over anyone else.
Negh'Var vs. Assault Cruiser
-1 Device Slot
+2 Turn
+DHCs/DCs
-5 Inertia
+Cloak
Qin vs. Patrol
+2000 Hull
-0.07 Shield Mod
-1 Turn
+Cloak
Hegh'ta vs. Patrol
-7000 Hull
-0.1 Shield Mod
-1 Aft Weapon
+5 Turn
-1 BOFF Station
+4 Universal BOFF Stations
+Battle Cloak
Assault Cruiser vs. Patrol
+8000 Hull
+0.1 Shield Mod
-9 Turn
-30 Inertia
-0.05 Impulse Mod
+2 Devices
I'm not sure how one could make the argument that KDF vessels give up a lot for the Cloak nor give up a ton for the Battle Cloak. If anything, it supports years of Fed complaints about KDF vessels.
Romulan boats on the other hand...well...let's look...
Ha'feh vs. Hegh'ta
+7000 Hull
+0.1 Shield Mod
+1 Aft Weapon
+1 BOFF Station
-4 Universal BOFF Stations
-5 Turn
-20 Inertia
Base40 (-10 Power Per Subsystem)
+Singularity Abiltiies
-400 Stealth @ 100 Singularity Charge/5 Pips
That's tough, because one can see where they trade off various things for various thing.
How about this one...
Ha'feh vs. Patrol
-20 Inertia
Base40 (-10 Power Per Bubsystem)
+Singularity Abilities
+Battle Cloak (-400 Stealth @ 100 Singularity Charge/5 Pips)
And then yeah, the WTF really hits you in the face...but then again, don't forget comparing the Qin to the Patrol, eh? One could make the argument that the Patrol deserved a buff based on that.
Then there's this one...
Fleet T'varo vs. Fleet B'rel
+4950 Hull
+0.11 Shield Mod
+1 BOFF Station
-3 Universal BOFF Stations
-5 Turn
-10 Inertia
Base40 (-10 Power Per Bubsystem)
+Singularity Abilities
+Battle Cloak (-400 Stealth @ 100 Singularity Charge/5 Pips)
...and the WTF kind of leaves. Cause you can go through and look at the majority of ships to see that 5 turn = ~1000 hull...B'rel has +5 turn and -4950 hull. Etc, etc, etc...
So all in all, it's more a case of saying that KDF ships were better than Fed ships and now both KDF and Romulan ships are better than Fed ships.
No doubt there are obvious exceptions to this - there are not enough KDF ships to match all of the Fed ships, so there are going to be Fed ships that are better than KDF ships - there's no ship to compare.
But yeah...the folks that should be complaining the most would be the Feds. Course, one could easily make the argument that Cryptic's idea of balancing (that roughly 1 turn = 1000 hull thing for example) is way off...but they're pretty consistent with most of it.
It's like they tried to balance the Rom ships against the KDF ships thinking the KDF ships were already balanced with the Fed ships...and that's how we get that comparison between the Ha'feh and the Patrol... /facepalm
Move to VA, give them an additional allotment of "points" that can be spent to improve them.
Etc, etc, etc.
You should end up with at least balanced ships. Beyond that, all the gear - etc - yep, you'd have all the imbalance one's wee heart could enjoy...
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
You are assuming the battlelcloack equipped romulan ships are balanced with the KDF ships of the past. They could drop battcloak on all ships that have any form of cloak and I still would not be sure the newly battlecloak capable ships would be able equal to Romulan ships.
Bsically I'm saying they aren't balanced now, so why assume they would bother at all? If they wanted to drop BC on all ships I very much doubt they would do a balance pass of all affected ships. If anything they would shelf that for a "future patch".
Ok, the Gal-X has no cloak console, so to give it a battle cloak you mean I can now, set up my lance alpha, decloak, lance and then re cloak in battle? Yeah go for it!!!
I see the idea and it'd probably bring several of the ships you mention back up to par with current ships but I'm not sure how overpowering defiants and raptors would become because of this.
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan
^^ This man gets it. Hear ye him!
Good post. I would like to point out something rather important regarding your comparison of the Qin with the Patrol Escort. Namely, the Qin has the turn axis of a cruiser. It doesn't track targets nearly as well as a standard escort. The Fleet Qin also has this problem, as I understand it, and possibly even the Somraw to a lesser extent (I don't have any experience flying these vessels so I don't know personally). This clearly imbalances the scales back towards the Patrol Escort, in terms of direct comparison.
And yeah, looking at the numbers alone, the BoPs seem to have it good. What's not factored in is that the lower hull and lower shield mod really limit how those universal boffstations can be used effectively, especially in PvP. Hence, the reason why most BoPs are relegated to the hit-and-run roles or the makeshift sci-attack/disable role (of course, not doing it as well as a full-fledged science ship would).
You're also comparing a cruiser to an escort at one point, hence the big differences in stats. Different design philosophy, etc.
Ultimately, this is what I feel the state of things is: The Federation has an edge in escorts by virtue of the combination of more variants to pick from and by the fact that the Raptors have borked turn axes. It also continues to dominate the science ship section with an excellent array of science vessels to pick from.
The KDF still retains a clear edge in battlecruisers, as has been traditional. KDF also retains the BoP concept, though the advantages it once provided have been watered down over the last year (particularly with the introduction of Romulans), and it's arguable that the BoP needs buffing somewhere.
The Romulans. . .they're structured quite differently. I would say that they don't favor escorts or cruisers in any particular way, having excellent options in both. They also have some science ship options. They remain weak on carriers, though that will likely be addressed in the near future. Then there's the considerable advantages that the Romulan battlecloaks and Romulan species traits offer, unbalancing the whole thing.
I've never bought into the thinking that Klingon ships were 'overpowered'. We have our strengths, as do the Federation. What needs balancing is the Romulans, because they're not balanced properly, especially not when you throw that operative trait in.
It has a different feel to it. It's "bottom heavy" compared to the Raiders or Fedscorts. But that's something a player can either get used to or they can't. It took a little time, but I ended up preferring the turn of the Qin to other boats. The Ambassador also has a twisted pivot point - and - lol, yeah - I don't think I'll ever get used to that. The JHEC also has a more rear pivot like the Qin, and that was pretty easy to get used to after flying the Qin.
To me, the Patrol actually feels like it turns slower - it's a visual thing. The front of the Qin will cover a greater distance than the Patrol for the same turn rate, giving it that feeling.
Now, on the other hand - the actual weapon mounts could definitely be problematic - depending on how much of that is just visual and how much of that is actually involved in the arcs. It's tough to tell, because the Qin has some funky firing animations. It does have some of my favorite animations in regard to torps though - lol - either popping out the side and then shooting forward or dropping down and then shooting forward. Still though, the hardpoints are on the narrow saucer/bridge area compared to the more spread out hardpoints common to the various Patrol kitbashes. Depending on how the arcs actually work, that would definitely put the Qin at a disadvantage.
I've run Patrol (Fleet) Escorts since I started playing...always preferred them to the Advanced. Course, I think only one of my guys currently has one while two others have MU Advanced sporting the Patrol kitbash options. Ever since the introduction of the Mirror Qin, I've picked them up for my KDF guys and two of the four (my secondary Engs (Fed/KDF) are just Cruiser/Battle Cruiser guys) have them - the other guy was going to be a BoP guy from the start so there was no point.
Definitely think that somebody going from a Fedscort (or almost any ship outside of the JHEC) would likely find the Qin to be off. If the hardpoints (easy to see with an Eng popping EPS) are affecting the arcs, then yeah - the advantage would go to the wider hardpoints. They're the only ships that I run DHCs on and I've never noticed an issue between the two (but I suck with DHCs, so that doesn't really mean anything...lol).
It's in the class - Raider. It's hit 'n run. Geko pictures them as assassins, they strike from the darkness - they're not stay and fight ships. They're the vape ships...peek-a-boo...you're dead, teehee and all that jazz, lol. Course, I fly a Sci Hegh'ta w/ 4x Sci BOFFs...so I'm not vaping anybody with my decloaks - just ticking them off and getting them to complain in zone about Sci spam.
The stats though - to Cryptic - are balanced. That's the reason that I did the Escort vs. Cruiser comparison...something increased, something decreased...how they've attempted to balance things there.
While I disagree with folks on the turn thing with the Raptors, like I said in that post - yeah, one can compare certain ships - but the Feds simply have more ships available and those ships are better...so it gives the Feds the edge over the KDF in that respect. Basically, apples to apples is one thing - but the Feds also have oranges, grapefruits, etc, etc, etc.
I don't believe that edge is as big as some of the folks out there make it out to be. An edge? No doubt...but there are so many Feds out there that believe the KDF are miles ahead of the Feds in that regard. Sure, one can look at the Tor'Kaht - but that's a Fat Eng-laden Raptor pretending to be a Battle Cruiser, lol.
The traits...both Captain and BOFF. That's where I believe the actual issue exists with the Romulans, personally.
Can't remember if I mentioned the +Defense before, but I'm thinking I didn't. Raiders, Raptors, Destroyers, Escorts have +10% Bonus Defense (the JHEC doesn't, and I complain about that...I mean, c'mon - the HEC does, why not the JHEC?)...the Warbirds don't. However, with BOFFs - they can have +12.5% Bonus Defense...more than the Escorts...thus giving them the edge. The Ambush? +15%...unless you've got a Sub BOFF (who doesn't?) and then it's +25%. The +CrtD/CrtH? The extended Ambush bonus?
That's not the ships...that's the traits. And without a doubt, imho, that blows the whole balance thing out of the water and royally screws both the KDF and Feds.
Imagine the ships without all the stuff from the traits, eh? World of difference, imho...
I've seen it as the Feds having better ships overall - sure, the KDF will match up on some - but the Feds have always had more and that more generally also included better. Cryptic tried to "balance" that with universal consoles - the KDF generally had better consoles. But then...well, they shared that. And yeah...
So I would say that in certain regards, the KDF ship is better than its Fed counterpart - but - there are not counterparts for all Fed ships - so the Feds have better ships.
As for balancing? I think it goes beyond just trying to balance the Romulan ships. Which is what I suggested in that later post - that all ships need to be rebalanced. Course, that's the ships. That won't do anything about the Romulan/Reman Traits...if the Fed or KDF had them, then I believe the same issue would exist - just with a different face.
Hell, think about all the "nerfing" that took place with the Embassy BOFFs because of how powerful they were...then Cryptic goes and does this with the Romulans? Insane...insane...insane.
And definitely worth mentioning is what I did not mention in those comparisons - BOFF/Console layouts. When I was looking at Qin vs. Patrol vs. Ha'feh, I was looking at the MU Qin. If one looks at the Fleet Qin, it's more closely a match to the Fleet Defiant in that regard...less turn, more hull, etc, etc, etc.
But yeah, ships need to rebalanced...and the LoR trait stuff - yeah, that's just insane.
Costs a console slot, but could give you a Raptor with BC, or BoP with EBC.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
I hear the approach of a PVP Rep System that has a limited cloak as part of a new T5 gear set*
HIDE THE YOUNGLINGS!
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
You act as if they would be giving cloak to every ship. This is for ships that already cloak.
I'm actually surprised this thread made it to page 2 before someone cried about 5v5 cloaking arenas.
Sounds like a good idea. That might address the issue of stat trade-offs.
While I don't agree with turns/pivots like a cruiser thing, it does have some funky weapon animations which would leave me to believe the more experienced DHCjocks that something is off...besides, have you ever flown a Chel Grett and tried to fire an Aft Torp? It's like, where the fu...dge is that arc? It's pretty bad.
The following are the T5 ships my guys have:
Reman Sci
Fleet T'varo Light Warbird Retrofit
Ha'feh Assault Warbird
Risian Corvette
T'varo Light Warbird Retrofit
Alien Eng
Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier
Breen Chel Grett Warship
Kamarag Battle Cruiser Retrofit
Mirror Qin Heavy Raptor
Mirror Vor'cha Battle Cruiser
Negh'Var Heavy Battle Cruiser
Risian Corvette
Alien Sci
Hegh'ta Heavy Bird-of-Prey
Kamarag Battle Cruiser Retrofit
Risian Corvette
Alien Tac
Mirror Qin Heavy Raptor
Breen Chel Grett Warship
Kamarag Battle Cruiser Retrofit
Mirror Vo'Quv Carrier
Risian Corvette
Vo'Quv Carrier
Alien Eng
K't'inga Battle Cruiser Retrofit
Mirror Vor'cha Battle Cruiser
Negh'Var Heavy Battle Cruiser
Risian Corvette
Alien Eng
Breen Chel Grett Warship
Advanced Escort
Mirror Advanced Escort
Mirror Assault Cruiser
Mirror Deep Space Science Vessel
Mirror Reconnaissance Science Vessel
Risian Corvette
Support Cruiser Retrofit
Alien Sci
Mirror Deep Space Science Vessel
Breen Chel Grett Warship
Mirror Reconnaissance Science Vessel
Mirror Star Cruiser
Patrol Escort
Risian Corvette
Support Cruiser Retrofit
Alien Tac
Risian Corvette
Assault Cruiser
Mirror Advanced Escort
Support Cruiser Retrofit
Alien Eng
Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
Assault Cruiser
Mirror Star Cruiser
So while there's not the greatest selection of ships there by far (lol, by very far) - there is a healthy mix of different ship types. For the turn/pivot, I'd break them down into the following:
Cruisers/Carriers/Chel Grett/Warbirds/Escorts/Raiders
Battle Cruisers
Raptors/JHEC/Risian
Recon Sci/Deep Space
Ambassador
Note, that's not about the actual turn rate - that's about the pivot point and how they turn. To me, the Ambassador is the funkiest and the hardest ship for me to fly because of it.
As for the balancing, well, there's...what, 19 RA ships up there, 1 VA ship, 1 Fleet ship, 1 Lockbox ship, and 2 Event ships. There's not a lot of ships available for comparison with each other outside of the RA ships - but I sure as Hell don't feel those RA ships are balanced.
As the Battle Cloak topic in general, I've always been surprised the Raptors didn't have a Battle Cloak...the Warbirds all having a Battle Cloak only added to that.
Zen Bort vs. Zen Ody
+1500 Hull
-0.15 Shield Mod
-0.5 Turn
-2 Inertia
+Cannons
+Cloak
The Bort cloak is supposed to be at 96% effectiveness, not 75% effectiveness. If you're seeing it at 75% instead of 96% - I'd bug report it. Unless they changed that and I missed it somewhere...
I cant get in game right now so not sure, I could be mistaken. I know my same character gets decloaked a less on other ships then the bort though. Regardless, there is little justification to the penalty just because its a big ship if the scimitar can have battle cloak.
Some have argued that the Scim is not the Rom flagship like the Ody/Bort are for Fed/KDF. But accepting that, do folks think that Cryptic would in turn release a Rom boat with crappy stats matching the Ody/Bort by comparison? Course not, folks would break out their GTFO t-shirts and camp out on Cryptic's front lawn.
So when Cryptic does the Rom flagships - I seriously hope they do a balance pass and buff the Ody/Bort for it so they're in line with one another.
At the same time, I'm still pushing for both the KDF and Feds to get a Dread 3-pack to match the Scims. Course, for the KDF that means I'm pushing for the Balaur, Ravager, and Warbarge...heh. For the Feds, I'd say they should update the Gal-X, have JamJamz do the "real" Typhoon model, and add in the Gal-X hangar boat they've talked about in the past. (they should also offer a limited time discount for folks that have the Gal-X and want to get the 3pack, imho)
Which then does get into a little of the discussion about whether those Fed/KDF Dreads would have Battle Cloaks, etc, etc, etc...
I suspect the reason Raptors don't have a battlecloak is because the battlecloak has been one of the main selling points of the Bird of Prey class. Give the battlecloak to a ship with higher hull, and people might fly the BoP less. I'd certainly give it a try, to see if the loss in turn-rate and universal consoles keeps it from performing the hit-and-run role.
The BoP class is both a boon and a curse, I'd say. It partially compensates the KDF for not having a proper science ship line, but at the same time it could be used as an excuse to not give the KDF more science ships :P
People always compare raiders to escorts, as well, as if raiders were a real match for escorts in a straight-up fight. That's why I always laugh when people demand I 1v1 them after I blow them up with my Fleet Norgh. . .why would I fight on their terms, where my ship and build are at a disadvantage?
I'd love to see that, if for no reason than to see the chat about it. I mean, look at the fuss around the Romulan Temporal ships and Vet ship. The Temporal ships have the exact same stats as the other ones, while the Vet ship was actually balanced in regards to it gaining the battle cloak and compared to the other two ships.
Though if they did release an Ody/Bort clone (not the Scimitar), it'd still be a huge, slow lumbering beast and I bet it'd be pretty reviled as such.
There was a time that I would have thought this to be a bad idea but with everything they've done in the face of balance this would be barely noticeable.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.