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Kobayashi Maru...
kirkryder
Member Posts: 149 Arc User
Having just recently played this mission again, I have noticed that we have lost the speech at the beginning of the mission from the vessel.
Is this because of copyright? As we seem to have lost any reference to the Kobayashi Maru from the mission. Which is now just called, No Win Scenario.
Which is a big shame TBH that copyright can get in the way of A Star Trek based game! :eek:
Is this because of copyright? As we seem to have lost any reference to the Kobayashi Maru from the mission. Which is now just called, No Win Scenario.
Which is a big shame TBH that copyright can get in the way of A Star Trek based game! :eek:
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Post edited by kirkryder on
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Yes, but this is still (unfortunately) the 21st century.
Kirk's Protege.
If I remember correctly, in the kobayashi maru you get several ship taht decloack all around you and your shield have a critical failure. And it is bridge view as it is about managing your crew.
May be we need to be able to fight space combat from the bridge view?!
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
If it can be implemented in a way that works well, I'd love to see it.:)
Sounds like someone that doesn't have much experience in No Win Scenario. There's a lot more to it than that, and it can't be done with raw firepower. You will lose every time.
NO. NOT AGAIN. PLEASE. NOT AGAIN
This can't and won't ever happen, it's a fundamental limitation of the engine. You are EITHER in space OR on your bridge (which is a ground map). You are not in both places simultaneously, and you can never be. We will never be able to fight in space from our bridges, because that would be fighting a space battle on a ground map and that simply isn't possible.
Kirk's Protege.
Well come on now. You don't need a fully functional ground map to give this illusion, just a viewscreen boarder and some animated helm crew. There have been many successful star trek games that have done this. However, it does create a problem of visibility. Essentially, any pixel dedicated to boarders, trays, or bridge is pixels are pixels that are not being used for identifying threats and targets around you. Since it is a shooting space game, fast reaction time is necessary. Fighting from the bridge would be a neat device for a mission like what you have in the present federation tutorial. But it seems like more trouble than it is worth for general space combat.
You mean all those ground missions on a ship or base are not possible or all the starbases with big window are not possible? Hmm funny I remember looking out the window on ESD.
Simply isnt possible is not true, granted it would be difficult because they skybox and any planets would need to be attached to the camera and movement of the "ship", but thats easy enough to do if not time consuming and lots of tweaking to get it right. The real problem and the one that would kill the experiance if you want to be helmsman is you have controls for character movement and cannot use the same controls for the ship. So the controls would be a menu based order system to various officers. Which would make a better "captain" role and easier for the devs to implement movement because they are all scripted to a choice. Other scenario is you are glued to the chair and have no character control.
Would it be financialy worth it for them to implement a mission where you control the ship like a captain should? No.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
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Youre comparing apples and oranges here. I know its hard to imagine that games built on different engines have different limitations...Especially for those who have never even tinkered with modding, programming and such. But this is what he was getting at.
Just because OTHER Star Trek games have done this. Does NOT mean this game can. The game engine is not capable of overcoming this hurdle and no matter how many times people stomp their feet or exclaim that other games have accomplished this will change the limitations of this game engine.
Maybe in another 10 or so years when Cryptic gets permission to do another Star Trek style MMO theyll take this bit of knowledge and use it to build it on a game engine that can support such a function. But here and now..and forever on Star Trek: Online. You will never see a space mission conducted from the ground map of the bridge.
All those times looking out the windows of ESD. Did you see other Player ships warping in and out of the Sol System Space Map? All those times looking out the windows of ESD. Did you see a Player fly his ship past the windows? No? Well then. The windows are an illusion. Its meant to look as if Earth and the Moon are out there. But they arent. There is not space between you and Earth. Its just the textures of Earth wrapped around the windows in such a way to invoke a feeling of walking around on the actual Starbase that you approach when you enter the space map.
I don't even understand how that would work.
What would it look like? Draw me a picture? You wouldn't be on your bridge, it would look like a UI not an intractable map. Sounds to me like what you're saying is "Take that ground map there, now superimpose it onto this space map here, and voila. You're not really on the ground you're still in space" which is pretty ridiculous and not possible as far as I'm aware.
Then how would that even work? How would combat work? You would be fighting the same missions we currently have (Take infected space elite for example) How could you have a bridge-style setup HUD overlay that means you can fly this map?
How do you tell your conn officer to approach the cube at a distance of 3km
.. Tell your Tactical officer to use attack patterns Alpha and Omega, buff up cannon scatter volley 2, tactical team one and open fire?
Then move 15 degrees aft, brace for impact, and fly over to the left transformer?
It just doesn't stand up when you actually spend a minute to think about it, you would have to completely redesign the way space combat works - because what we currently have simply won't work from the perspective of sitting in your captains chair on your bridge.
Are you basically telling me you want everything to remain the same, and the only difference is the current HUD is completely replaced with the bridge of your ship, where you're sat, stationary, facing the viewscreen. Then all the buttons/overlays from the current HUD we have are randomly placed inside the bridge, so you can fly effectively the same way we do now - only your ship exterior would be invisible. That's pretty much the only way I can see this working, and to be honest with you, it sounds like a pretty crappy idea that sounds much cooler than it actually is because it wouldn't be practical or functional in the slightest
Kirk's Protege.
It's not possible for a VERY simple reason.
THe game sees the SHip and the Toon as the exact same character, just different map skins.
"Looking out the window at ESD" is not interactive. You're basically looking at a backdrop hanging outside the window.
Unless you work on the STO software you can not accurately say something is "Simple" as you do not know the actual limitations of the software or hardware.
The idea is to use the viewof the ship with either the captain in his chair. The captain can se first person view and fixed on the view screen. The view screen will act as a secondary screen that show what the ship's toon will see if in first person view. You will need an improve radar view that let you see your relative position to other ship though.
Well may ti will be an overhaul but still we need a developper to tell use. And I have learn in my work to ask what people think to be impossible, they are sometime wrong.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
It sounds like you understand it just fine. That is exactly what I suggest. I also said that I thought it wasn't practical because you would loose visibility. Actually you would loose visibility twice because you would probably need the camera to be in follow mode, so you could no longer see directly behind your model either. I was not advocating for that setup, only pointing out that it was within the realm of possibilities. Therefore it would be functional (in that could work). But I agree it is not practical because you loose a great degree of functionality (like the ability to see behind you).
And for a koybaishi maru mission, you could have it on your bridge with predetermined view screen visuals based on your choices. And then you could direct your crew to do things if you wanted and that would also be easy with the current game engine. But for regular game-play--what we have is best.
I did create a rudimentary diagram, but your description was more elegant.
http://www64.zippyshare.com/v/17411429/file.html
X2 had cockpits, X3 removed them for greater visibility.
Leading your ship from the bridge would severly limit your options and while it might be fun for a die hard simulation fan, you can't build a sound, enjoyable action game on it. Instead of pushing the emergency power to shileds, you would have to talk to you corresponding bridge officer, slowing the gameplay. And that might even make sense, but would need a totally new approach, and eventually something that would require another game to be built.
X:Rebirth will again have "a" cockpit, but it will only have one flyable player ship.
Yeah but has that not been done already... Like Bridge Commander!
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AFAIK, It's always been called No Win Scenario since in launched on Tribble with the Season 6 patch. It's never been officially called the Kobayashi Maru. There is a doff mission called this however that you can get at SFA
The computer voice at the beginning has always referred to it being a combat simulation.
Take a piece of cardboard, cut out the middle, draw the frame of the viewscreen on it, attach it to your monitor done.
The game can only draw one avatar for each player.
The difference is that on the ground that avatar looks like a person and in space it looks like a ship.
Let me illustrate:
this is what happens when the engine mixes the two things up:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ThbIGFAfF0M/UVxs8AzGGuI/AAAAAAAAASo/UJx0jU3Ipz0/s1542/esd+hacks.PNG
the only solution I could even remotely think of that could give you what you want would be a static camera glued to the nose of your ship.
This is an assumption. The exact phrase you prove is "the game only draw one avatar for each player". That does not mean it cannot draw 2, unless you are a STO developper the can and cannot seem a far reaching conclusion.
Second, if the captain view is first person, you do not draw another avatar.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
How do do that I want try it....
Yes he can, because this has been discussed time and time again and the developers have said this over and over again. Frankly we're all getting a bit sick of hearing it.
While it's a nice idea, I get the feeling it wouldn't work very well. It wouldn't feel dynamic or immersive, it would be exactly the same but with a bridge-esque border which cuts out some of your field of vision. It might be fun for a few hours, but after that, it'll just get in the way and feel too static and "samey".
I just don't see it working
Kirk's Protege.
Link it (And no I don't have time to search).
If you don't like seeing old discusison raise again by new player I suggest you don't read the forum. Unless we goes through what bother us like it was done before this is us that feel sick.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
No I will not link it, I don't have every developer post I've read over the last 2 years bookmarked.
I have no problems with old discussions being brought up again, but this one is almost as frequent as "Gimme a T5 connie" ,"Make lobi account bound" and "why do you hate cruisers, nerf escorts". How many times do the devs have to say "No", "We're not allowed" or "We can't" before enough is enough?
Kirk's Protege.
This old topic again...?
The onus is on you, the newbie, to research established knowledge before you try to argue an assumption of the game's capabilities. Let me help you out here with what comes up from a quick googling of 'Star Trek Online Pilot From Bridge':
What these other folks have been trying to tell you is simplified as thus:
When you are in space, your 'player' is your ship. It is not a massive construct zoomed out that your tiny self is inside. It is, literally, a tiny figurine in a space map with nothing inside it.
When you are on the ground, your player is your humanoid avatar. If your spaceship were on the ground, it'd be about the size of your body. If your humanoid avatar were in space, it'd be about the size of your ship.
If this isn't clear enough for you, have a look at some old beta-era STO screens we took where one could accidentally materialize in place of the other, such as your ship-self for your player-self in space.
http://i.imgur.com/eDaAbEi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3ZAXsq6.jpg
This happens because STO's system is not built to scale things like ships out to the size that would necessitate a persistent interaction of the space-instance and the ground-instance. The system just cleverly manipulates window maps and textured scenery to give you the illusion that you are in space or on a starship when in fact you are just on a space/ship-themed ground map just like any planet.
Hope that answers your concerns. Until next time when we have to go over this all over again for someone else convinced the game can do what it can't.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Which one, the cutouts, the bug with the ships or the camera glued to the ship?
The only one you'd have active control over right now is of course the first on the list.
I think only the devs could do the camera thing for us.;)
its allot of BS leave it alone , I love trek but this is a trek game. just pretend and imagine what your crew is doing while following your orders.
I'm talking turn based stradegy style that makes use of doffs, boffs, and your ships.
On your turn you get to select a bridge officer power from your five selected bridge officers, a doff buff from a randomly choosen doff from your crew, and if you wish to spend it a device or move your ship. Then its either one of your other ships turns, or the enemy depending on the order of turns. When its one of you ships captained by one of your bridge officers you can either choose they choices or let the AI decide.
This is just an outline, I'm sure it can be improved upon.
Two birds one stone, make bridges useful and provide a style of game play for those of us becoming tired of pew pew all the time and who wish depth.
I'm sure you could even add non combat game play to that as well.