may computer gamers are from the WoW generation of gamers and most likely never played any of the old sandbox games which once you got into them could be so addicting i quit smoking one seriously but in many cases they had no story and that was purity much everyone's complaint who didn't like them. WoW gen + apparently love Minecraft. People run to it because it satisfies some subconscious need that currently in modern MMORPGs has no outlet. I grew up on computer games so its not about thee game to me its about the over all problem with the state of games and I love star trek and It depicts a world which describes sandbox play perfectly, a universe to explore. So I decided it was time to put my ideas somewhere where they could be read even if I just end up talking to my self
Sorry for the long post. Just wasn't possible to be brief without sounding sarcastic.
Please wrap this whole thread up into nice, pretty package with a big bow on it and send it of to whoever has the final word on content decisions. +1000 to OP and I agree with 99% of all the other suggestions too.
I just hit tier 5 in all 3 reputations on my main. What's more, the PvE content is so stagnant, and therefore '(ridiculously) easy if you know how', that the grind content's longevity simply doesn't stretch to the full duration of the grind it's there to feed.
I am now in the position that to get the stuff I want from the reputation system I don't have anything left to grind. I have all the in-game resources I need to get it all. I have the marks, I have the Borg Neural Processors, I have the EC to buy the necessary commodities, I have the XP and I have the dilithium, at least in Ore form anyway. If I could be bothered (why I can't shouldn't need explaining) to grind the dilithium with my other two toons, I would have it all done in just over a week, but if not, a month or so, tops if I log in to refine every day.
There are, of course, the fleet holdings to grind for, but the experience is pretty similar. I'll admit that the addition of the 'choice of marks' option and a couple of new maps has made this a little less tedious, and I enjoy do doing stuff with fleetmates, but the end game experience of STO in general sucks.
I appreciate that it's simply not possible to create anything like the amount of content that would be required to give us something new to do every day of every week and I'm not expecting that to happen, but once a newly arrived, one toon player reaches a position similar to mine, they find their end game options to be the following:
1. Get into PVP - which I personally like, but it's just a fact that not everyone does, and not just for QQ 'it's full of hax' reasons, but through a simple and legitimate matter of personal taste. Besides, if it was part of the plan that end-game was supposed to be PVP, I think it would have recieved a little more attention/promotion by now.
2. Get into serious RP and pretend to be a real Starship Captain - again, some people like RP, and some people simply don't. If this were the official line (which I know it isn't) it would be a major cop-out and the lamest excuse ever for the lack of content in a mmo.
3. Check out the foundry missions or make your own one - Now there is merit in this, I am currently working on a foundry project and I've played several very interesting player created missions, but again, this is also a cop-out. Both 2 and 3 read very much like 'There's the all the ships, costumes and other game assets, now go make your own fun.'
4. Concentrate on doing stuff with fleet/make friends, and just knda 'hang out' - this is all good, and for many but not all, kinda the point in playing a mmo versus a single player game, but does logging on and chatting really constitute 'end game'?
5. Spend all your time in game trying to finish off all those accolades or trying to beat the No Win Scenario and others that have eluded you during your time in the game - OK, accolade hunting can be satisfying and at least the content being repeated doesn't feel as 'automatic' if you've not done the story stuff more than once. I guess I'll concede this one but I will say that there are certain missions that really do lose their repeatability after a while. An example? I don't know how many of you have had to get the Ophidian Cane and the Shard of possibilities on 6 toons because you missed the feature episode re-runs... 100% optional to do or not, it still burns....
6. Roll a toon of a different class/race/faction and/or use a ship of a different class with your existing one - so... do it all, all over again...
7. Dedicate the majority of your online time to helping others to learn to play - A noble cause, but again, not something that should be relied upon in favour a more end game content.
8. Stop playing for a few months and check back periodically to see what's changed - Apart from possibly being missed by thier fleet and in-game friends, well, it's simply bad news for Cryptic. If they're Gold, then no more sub money, and if they're LTS, then they'll have a ton of zen when they come back so they won't be spending any more real cash on whatever the latest shiny is.
Now, that's end-game... but the general gist of most of the posts in this thread is kind of asking that the very concept of end game is in the end what makes end game so lame. The 'end game' content should actually just be 'the game'. Sure, have a story, because that's cool and actually, a lot of us really like the STO story, but what I take from this thread is basically a request to make STO game play as linear as the universe in which it is based - as in not at all. And I agree even if I appreciate that it isn't something that can be done tomorrow because I need entertaining.
ALL that said, and for ALL my moaning and groaning in other posts, Kudos to the those in the various teams that do the work that brings us this game. For all its faults, I would still rather have it than not - There's a post on another thread that says this makes me part of the problem ...
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
OMG you hit the nail on the head and drove it in! I don't like using forums so I have kept these things to my self for a very long time and its nice to know that I'm not alone in my opinions on the issues. Long Posts mean you care one way or the other and that's all that's important.
If you agree strong enough you should spread the post around to people who might be interested I want to get people who have good ideas on how the essence of TREK might be better brought out in game play to post here so there is a nice bow tied package for the Dev team to hopefully read through, maybe morph the essence of the ideas into theyre own or maybe in some cases just pluck them out and use them.
That's the problem. You're suppose churn with everyone else and stop playing a few months after hitting the cap. The coming back for each expansion and doing it again.
It can suck if you're dedicated. But the MMO model relies on this because not even the wealthiest of companies can produce enough content to keep the hangers-on happy. So the best thing to do with a game is to not be dedicated.
The highlighted point is what irritates me the most. It's obvious that without the hardcore trekkies and a few others sticking around, there simply wouldn't be an established player base to keep the game going, but surely it makes more sense to actually try to keep some of the newly repped newbies and try to grow the games population? Or do they actually believe their own hype about that and can't see that a lot of the so-called 'growth' in the number of players is largely a growth in the number of alternate f2p accounts players have? I have no hard evidence for this, but I have heard and read various times from 'official' sources that a growth in the player base usually coincides with some kind of new grind system, the fleet system being the biggest, apparently. I wonder why...
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
I know I have many peoples alts in my fleet. I almost always play Spycho but lots of people have 2,3,6 one person has 11 characters but he paid for the slots. I would like to point out I know very few people who could play only 1 character I got use to it because you only got 2 character slots in Star Wars Galaxies. BTW to the Devs, I had friends who paid 15 dollars a month for 4 accounts just to have more characters, and SWG didn't even have a zen store type system until the last 9 months of the game. I should be able to play one character and not get bored quickly. I had one RL friend who played Galaxies with me and he didn't even get to max level for 2 years because he hung out in the cantina talking to people and getting contracts to decorate peoples houses. Houses littered the planet scape and you honestly could say you could spend all day going into houses which were kept unlocked and view other peoples master pieces or going around the hundreds of points of interest spread through out the galaxy. NOW to be clear I'm not asking for anything as extensive as architects and wide open planets to place them on, but my point is there are things that are really unbelievably satisfying that can have nothing to do with killing people. Not that I'm against it. But programming an almost scripted "TV Show" like environment means your going to have to keep making new episodes or the crowd will get upset. If you built ways for people to make their own fun it will be easier to focus on bigger projects because the population wont be chomping at the bit for the next "HARRY POTTER" book. Which you read and then your done, much like updates and expansions in STO
If some sort of apartment system was implemented the player should be allowed to set a key code for their apartment so they can give it to their friends who could then come visit and it would seem more realistic then inviting someone to your apartment and having them appear. people should have to fly up to your ship if they want to visit the bridge. some things just need to take time if your going to attempt to bring the character into the game and immerse them. Queue systems have their place and point but if every instance in the game where turned over to the Queue system the players have no real reason to go anywhere anymore. Queues should at least have a spot you have to go to if you wish to enter them like a ready room on a safe star base near the spot the instance is suppose to take place and then have the queues run the exact same way they do now just have the pve queue tab tell you where the quest is located and the potential to transwarp there.
Whereas, as Plato tells us, "perfection exists only in the mind of God" there are always ways to improve just about anything.
The best way to add variety to any game is to maximize the human element. People are often unpredicatable. I am against 'involuntary' pvp because it just ends up being bullies with maxed out equipment going around beating up on people but invited pvp is generally fun. Suggestion: a player is on an episode mission or just traveling around and receives a 'pop-up warning, similar to the type for "Defense Contract", The message should be appropriate to the faction (for Feds something like "Klingons ahead sir" for Klingons, "Enemy approaching on sensors". Now a pvp challenge/invite goes to the players who then have a choice to receive or not.
However, if a player accepts then wins the encounter, they will receive some sort of doff mission type reward/accolade/thing of value, maybe even a small level lockbox randomized to the event. Players can chose to try to negotiate or fight for this and come to an agreement or victory (maybe Feds get an extra "bump" for negotiation and Klingons for battle victories; battles must be won by the victor still having maybe 15-20% hull left when the other ship is destroyed or it is a loss) and the winner receives the prize. Maybe the loser might get some small reward an accolade/diplomacy points etc., to encourage participation. The encounters would be between matching level participants so even the "little guys" will have an opportunity. In other words, random pvp events offered, randomly accepted or declined, with uncertain outcomes and rewards and the unpredictability of human interaction. No one is forced to accept and the pop-ups can be blocked if the player doen't want to participate at that time. Just a thought.
any Players taking part in involuntary PvP would have to go to an NPC officer on a star base and enter a global PvP mode to be attacked. Anyone who had not specifically declared they where open to PvP would be immune from the games. Also I think a boarding action option in order to gain a better reward would level the playing fields for anyone who likes ground combat better giving them the possibility of gaining the upper hand possibly throw a timer on how long a player can try to board another players ship before that players ship "has got its shields back online" and once it has you get booted off the ship and the enemy has a chance to get away. The Sector Sensor idea would allow for sector space to be used for something other then traveling and allow for cat and mouse games for those ships with cloaks or maybe a fog of war for enemy ships in pvp. On top of that, having pvp patrols along boarders and cat and mouse games in sector space would give driver coils more of a point. but it doesn't matter as long as what ever is done doesn't feel linear I don't care.
I think Ultima Online was on to something way back in the day with their 'Persistent World"-model. Sure, it needed tweaks over the years to discourage antisocial behavior, but immersion was much, much easier.
I think Ultima Online was on to something way back in the day with their 'Persistent World"-model. Sure, it needed tweaks over the years to discourage antisocial behavior, but immersion was much, much easier.
Yeah and their is much anti-social behavior in STO despite active zone chats, LOL if you get the right team you can go into an STF no one says anything and you all just do what your suppose to and finish like 7 -8 minutes early with the optional. I mean that's a good thing but its bad because if your not in a fleet you basically don't talk to anyone... the entire time I played STO before I joined a fleet I talked to all of 1 person. But a more immersive would end up having the benefit of converting people into RPers. I use to think RP was TRIBBLE but after playing a highly immersive game its one of my favorite things to do. STO was not the game that I played that caused the change lawl.
First of all, spysho2... the Enter button is your friend. you CAN have separate paragraphs within the same post.
^^^ Look, I just did it there :eek:
On the same thread.. this forum does not operate like Facebook where you have to make a new entry every time you want to say something different. Again, that is what the mythical "Enter" button is for. Its up your walls of text into manageable paragraphs that groups things into lumps of thoughts. Think of each sentence as a bite, and each paragraph as a spoonful of thought you are serving up. Each bite has sustenance; each spoonful is complete onto it's own, yet separate from the bite next to it. It allows your readers to digest what you are trying to feed them. It also makes physically READING it easier, as your eyes won't lose their place.
(See, I did a hard break there to show that this part of the post contains something unrelated to the first. However, still in the same post to save space. Again, the "Enter" button must be used)
Next thing , While I would love to see this game take on a more organic feeling, I feel like sometimes with these threads people are just requesting features form other games: "I want X from WoW", "Can we have Y like in Star Wars Galaxy?", "EVE does it, why can't we?"
(Again, Paragraph)
Just because it WORKS in another game does not mean it would transition well into STO. Soemthings are designed with different mechanics, audiences, IPs, systems, or programming involved. While we can take cues form other games, I would much rather have STO try to do something unique something that has never been done in an MMO before. I think we still have room for an Open universe with discovery and wonder. Integrating the Foundry missions into the universe better would be a great start, as the thousands of authors can come up with content faster than a couple dozen devs.
(Braces yourself, another paragraph coming)
Minigames, while fun, should not replace the core game. They should be fun in addition to everything else. The Devs should integrate more minigames into the story content, such as radiation scans or the isolinear chip hacking. Simple puzzles, but puzzles nonetheless.
(Even short paragraphs are allowed. That is all I have to say on that topic, so we move on)
There are soemthings we can learn form other games, but this is Star Trek Online, not Star Wars Galaxy 2. We should not reboot it completely.
Live on Earth. Work in Space. Play with Dragons. Join the best add on to STO, the Neverwinter holodeck program! Only 14 GPL a month.
I think Ultima Online was on to something way back in the day with their 'Persistent World"-model. Sure, it needed tweaks over the years to discourage antisocial behavior, but immersion was much, much easier.
Indeed, though several persistent world did at this time. I think about some private server of neverwinternight. And like Psycho2 said, RP is fun when you are immersed in the world. That mean that you do RP with other character for something not simply for the sake of RPing.
To Kyeto13, I don't think STO should be totaly rebooted but we state what we all lack in today's MMO : lack of involvement in the game. MMO today are just solo grind game and multi-player grind game if you are in a flee. I would like STO to be more Star Trek and less WH40K when it come to ground mission for example. I don't understand why I have to kill every one and that no discussion or negociation take place. But much more I need that something in the world is a stake not simply to think about my reward.
In a harder game (with friendly fire) I was far more involved when I was going to retreive other player bodies to be ressed than when I am going to save a NPC, the same moronic npc that will be here to be saved wether I do it or not. Ok,, repeteable quest are needed, but activity that have an impact are more important in the long run.
I'd like difficult puzzle by the way but that personnal.
Haven't read through yet but I just wanted to say...
I want Dev's to take lessons from other games and not just a select few that financially did well. Not asking for a serious reboot just a bit of a different direction for the future. Ill be the first to say STO would not have bin ready as a game to intake the changes I've asked for a year or 2 ago because there wouldn't be a good enough story and combat base to work off of. However, the STO story line is strong and there's a good variety of combat oriented things to do, they could spend some time on the things this Thread is asking for.
I agree with kyeto13 quite a bit on a many points. I took a lot of time to think of ways ideas could be integrated into the current game format, but in the end of course its not my choice what goes in or not. I do feel that telling someone what they are doing wrong with out telling them why or how they might do it right is in its self wrong.
With that being said I agree that theres a lack of puzzles and mini games in the story line and although it should not become a crutch which the Devs lean on, it would go along way to making you feel as though this is not just a future themed hack and slash. There are a few good examples in this game but they never became a standardize part of STO.
Also I apologize kyeto13 I don't use Facebook and I rarely use forums so I know not the format which most people use when in forums. I'm working on it.
I was thinking just now that it would be nice to have an RP ship which may not have to much combat purpose but would be an amazing place to throw parties or something that would be really nice. LOL I was just taking in fleet chat about how id love to have a ship to work on just for RPing which is why im getting the risa corvette... so I can pretend.
I Wholeheartedly agree, with all that has been said here so far.
Being in the same fleet with the OP has expanded the game so much for me as im not just doing PUG stfs.
I am now up to 3 Toons because i wanted to experiement with the different play styles, and i have to say its sorely dissapointing running the same missions over and over again do so.
The lack of choice in diesgining the Fleet starbases is abysmal. Why did they all have to look exactly alike. We could have had at least a little choice there.
The designs and color schemes for ships could be played with some to add more variety, hence whi i am excited for my corvette so i can at least make it look cool.
A little sense of scale in ships would be nice. I think i have some of the biggest corridors in the universe on my ships. Was it planned to be able to pilot shuttles through them? :eek:
I would like to see a little more leeway in choosing where your bridge officers sit, I mean come on i am a vice admiral and cannot have my commander science doing his full duty.
Maybe i dont want overdone DPS in my Escort, Maybe i would like to have a little more science in my Exploration cruiser. Maybe i want more tactical in my Dreadnaught.
I giggle when i see people complaining about not being able to have X types weapons on a ship, or why does KDF have (blank) or FED doesn't have (blank).
Variety is key, and the reasons most MMO games go down the tubes is because of the lack of variety.
F2P is usally the sign that a game is dying. i dont want to see this game go, id like to mix it up a little. Having quarters on our fleet starbase would be nice. Maybe some more stfs. Holoemitters you can get lead to a lot of fun but they just dont last. I would kind of like to have a mobile emitter, be an ECH, (Emergency Command Hologram) and have all kinds of costume options like the aliens selection does. :P
I know its rumored better carrier commands are on the way, but i would like to see those commands to come to all ships that have deployable pets, I.E. the oddyssey, Saucer seprations. And a little counter at the very least so i know how many of my tiny starfighters i have still flying around after a cube blows up.
There is so much i would like to say and see in this game. There is a lot of oppurtunity here. We do not need it all in one fell swoop, a little at a time would be ok. Nobody said this game is broken, but it has a long way to go to keep people playing and interested.
Nothing survives when the players think "maybe if i leave it alone for a month it will get better" come back and there is ONE new thing to do.
I did love the colony idea, Spy would be exited because the Fleet could make its own city, and we could have fancy parties. :eek:
Repetition is ok, but we need variety.
and i am done for now before i start getting repetetive.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I first off am not against the F2P Format at all. I wish it had come out back when I was a kid so I didn't have to ride my bike 50 miles to the game store to get a game card.
With that being said I have watched the F2P market form. I have personally watched F2P go from the realm of cheap small time games to the Standard. This is due to the Large number of WoW clones which were unable to gain the long term popularity which WoW enjoyed for so many years. Due to this saturation more games rapidly failed and died after WoW then ever before.
As far as I've witnessed from playing various games, the major recurring theme in the games which started off as or ended up going to the F2P Format is they lacked the immersion which people looked for in a game. They lacked the ability to come and live in the environment and have new strange occurrences unfold before you because the game was programed to allow for it.
Silkroad had so much repetitive grinding in it there are companies who make money off monthly subscriptions to bots for the game so they can walk away and level up. I called SWTOR going F2P in beta test because it felt like a free to play game. The world was amazing I mean really amazing, the story was incredible and omg voiced over, but you got to the end and you were done. Tabula Rasa was a stronghold attack and defend based Theme park game. It wouldn't go free to play and it died, taking some of its strongest points along with it to be buried forever. Global Agenda focused so much on pvp it was an MMO with no environment or story at all. APB was basically the essentials of GTA poorly replicated. DCU amazing game in its own right id even almost say worth paying for but running around a world beating up bad guys and bad guy npcs only lasts so long and then you need another character to play. The list goes on.
What im essentially getting at is the shift in p2p to f2p was not caused by the players but by the market driving what the players play and their response to what's available. People will pay to invest their time if they feel it is a means to an end. If someone feels they have the capacity to build themselves an empire they will strive for it even if its nearly impossible to do. If on the other had a person feels they have done all they can and there is nothing else for them they will stop.
ITS all about what you program not how you program. Perfect evidence is SWTOR at release was like 34GiGs just an amazingly large amount of time and effort and the game bombed because it was boring. STO way more fun, takes up less room, and would seem to have a far greater scalability as far as potential game play is concerned, but still suffers from the same problems plaguing other MMOs at this point in time, A lack of different goals.
id count rep system under "making your character the most battle ready" which is a singular goal in the big picture.
I posed the question, as a person, what keeps me wanting to wake up every day and live. Condense the response into a game and people will play it every day. Sometimes its the simple things, sometimes its not but they're both relevant to your life.
Being a hardcore fan of BOTH star trek and star wars. I will digress BUT....
SWOTOR could have been so much more. If lucasarts has learned anything we didnt want short and sweet, ala force unleashed. star wars games always had so much missed potential. And this is where STO really shines. sure ground can leave a little to be desired, but SPACE has so many options. and the characters you can make and customizability and soooo many races.
and i guess i missed my own point with my earlier post
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
lol no need to get defensive on your game bro I understand ya. The only reason I pick on SWTOR is because of the year and years of hype, the scale of the world and the size of the game its self physically on your HDD. Any (Insert here) game could have been used because the point is the same across the board SWTOR is just the most acute example but far from a bad game. Not to mention I've played enough computer games to know you don't write any new MMO off from the start unless its programming is flawed as bad as say warZ's (poor ARMA2 dayZ MOD rip off) was. Once again its about the example not any particular case.
and your reaction is exactly what I mean when I say people wont pay for subscription any more. Games these days are all focused on showing people a specific side of something. In doing so they leave out much potential in favor of other less impressive avenues. Avenues which don't hit the nail on the head when it comes to doing things that will be innately enjoyable even after repetition. Instead games focus mostly on bringing out more of those particular themes which have been focused on through out game development. This ends up causing Devs to spin their wheels. They're making something that can be finished by players in a matter of hours instead of putting the same effort into something that may warrant days of activity... not just starting a project that takes 24 hours to complete that doesn't count the rep system is cool but it is not fulfilling when you get to the end... at least it wasn't for me I barely had to do anything except wait.
Pen and Paper RPGs although now part of a sub community use to be played by everyone from rock stars to nerds in their moms basements. Those games, weither people like them or not, are what all modern mmos spawned from. You even have a character sheet in star trek online that shows your stats even to this day. In old games your chart of yourself was actually called a CHARACTER SHEET.
Pen & Paper mmos have the benefit of allowing you to create what ever you can imagine as long as it is within certain guild lines which structure the game. Modern MMOS have lost that. Many developers have never even played a pen & paper RPG the basic model which they intend to make money off of on the computer. It goes beyond star wars galaxies it goes beyond SWTOR it goes beyond any computer game out there I don't want star wars galaxies I think what I really want is what makes pen and paper rpgs so good to come back into the modern computer RPG.
People honestly will pay to play if they can pretend they are someone else. to be absolutely honest with my self I would like to pretend I am someone else when I play my MMOs.
Next season is going to be more of the same just the idea of being able to stand in earth space dock and be able to do purity much any end game mission from there is very displeasing. I don't have any reason to go any where in the game apparently long distance transporting has been perfected lets all just give up our star ships and start transporting everywhere. Now were going to have more to do while standing at ESD.
I'm ok with the queue's I understand they have a place, but when they made the Nukara Hard Missions Queued instances that drew the line for me that just means now I don't ever have to go to Nukara again because that was the only reason I ever went there. Season 8 sounds like its going to be a let down from the get go. I already have large numbers of people in two fleet chats talking about how unimpressive the State of Game sounded to them.
On top of that pre- nukara ground missions conversion to Queue missions, people had to actually travel to the planet and talk to people and cooperate and they did! very well! Now you can get a group of mutes and half the time they don't know what they are doing. It feels extremely planed out. Its like Super Mario Bros For the N64 and the galaxy is the castle you walk around in to get from one instance to another except for the walking part.
I think having The PvE queue tab tell you where the instance location is and give you the ability to transwarp there for money and then queue like normal by talking to someone would go along way to help with immersion. If you got bored easy and wanted to pretend you were flying across the galaxy you could just not transwarp. Fly across the galaxy for a reason instead of just doing it to wander around and go places you've been before but not in a long time, because you had no reason.
It would help take some of the overabundance of EC out of the world as well
I think having The PvE queue tab tell you where the instance location is and give you the ability to transwarp there for money and then queue like normal by talking to someone would go along way to help with immersion. If you got bored easy and wanted to pretend you were flying across the galaxy you could just not transwarp. Fly across the galaxy for a reason instead of just doing it to wander around and go places you've been before but not in a long time, because you had no reason.
It would help take some of the overabundance of EC out of the world as well
Until they update the map so you dont have to guess at which system is in which sector, i would have to say no to that.
And as far as repetition in games goes, well look at C.O.D. that is literally nothing but repetition, but you have reasons to keep doing the same TRIBBLE over and over again. End game in STO is literally END GAME. its oh look you havea ll this stuff. keep doing PvE or PvP it might be fun. Busting your butt for most times marginally better things is erdundant not repetetive.
As for the DayZ standalone, i give much credit to a simple ARMA Mod becoing a huge hit and taking off into its own game. Yes its an MMORPG but so different than every other game. Its not about the grind its about the survival, and if you die you start all over again, thats a brilliant zombie game, and i for one look forward to when it hits "shelves" so i can have a hopefully very fun zombie game to play.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
DayZ like fractal seem to give the player a reason to act and roleplay. That what lack in most MMORPG.
Psycho, though I share you point of view on PnP RPG or TRPG (I did a lot), I think that today RPG come from console RPG/adventure/Diablo which make a gap between the original TRPG and the actual MMORPG. This gap explain the loss of purpose in the character life.
They focus on the "gros bill" way of play "we play of XP and Gear" and forget the roleplay and actual involvement in the game (if I don't save the princess, well she is not saved, that will impact the fictionnal world I am in).
They misunderstand that in TRPG the leveling speed was very slow in real time. Battle was limited actually and very challenging and rewarding. Coming to computer battle became fast so they had to reduce the xp but the leveling is still too fast because you don't need to gather friend to play and there is no end play.
TO START OFF -
FLEET ADMIRALS NEED TO BE ABLE TO SEND MAIL TO ALL OF A SPECIFIC RANK!!!! I have the worst time keeping certain ranks informed of information without having to send a fleet mail to everyone.
Only thing I really disagree with, is this. Everyone in a fleet needs to be able to do this
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Your absolutely right. And I am a huge ArmA fan have been for a long time and one of the best parts of ArmA even in the normal game is that the game is so detailed for the simulator experience you don't have to even try and boom your a soldier in the middle of a middle eastern desert conflict being airlifted in a Blackhawk behind enemy lines hit the dirt and just a laser show all around.
But I digress. The problem is absolutely that the TRPG as you called it made the base model for how an MMO functions today but the key to realize is that the concept of RPG System was not to be a game but be a way of recreating a hypothetical Real Life in the confines of your imagination using mathematics. Because of this the RPG system could be used to tell stories such as mass effect, WoW other games of that type.
However, due to the success of games such as WoW and mass effect the development community has started creating very simple games with large masses of added content like one might print the next novel in a series of books. They have forgotten that the RPG System is capable of far more then they use it for today. When computer RPGs came out they were designed by people who wanted that addicting RPG experience without having to roll dice and wait your turn. Now MMO games are made by old WoW players, and the way they're built would imply the way to "beat the game" is to be king of the hill brute force through and through no real point to acquiring money except to spend it on the best stuff. The biggest joke of the modern MMO RPG is no ones a civilian and you can really only be so good at killing stuff. If your the best at killing stuff you can only kill so much before it just becomes all the same to you.
Better Idea, ut Those Things Not into new Classes, But Like a Profession~! AKA, You Are Tactical, and you also are a Musician (FYI, LOVE IDEA OF MUSICIAN! Look at LOTRO's Music Thing!)
R'tolves Will Spread Thier Peace and Will Prevail Over the Hostiles Who Dare Hurt Such A Isolationist Consitutional Monarchy!
Comments
Please wrap this whole thread up into nice, pretty package with a big bow on it and send it of to whoever has the final word on content decisions. +1000 to OP and I agree with 99% of all the other suggestions too.
I just hit tier 5 in all 3 reputations on my main. What's more, the PvE content is so stagnant, and therefore '(ridiculously) easy if you know how', that the grind content's longevity simply doesn't stretch to the full duration of the grind it's there to feed.
I am now in the position that to get the stuff I want from the reputation system I don't have anything left to grind. I have all the in-game resources I need to get it all. I have the marks, I have the Borg Neural Processors, I have the EC to buy the necessary commodities, I have the XP and I have the dilithium, at least in Ore form anyway. If I could be bothered (why I can't shouldn't need explaining) to grind the dilithium with my other two toons, I would have it all done in just over a week, but if not, a month or so, tops if I log in to refine every day.
There are, of course, the fleet holdings to grind for, but the experience is pretty similar. I'll admit that the addition of the 'choice of marks' option and a couple of new maps has made this a little less tedious, and I enjoy do doing stuff with fleetmates, but the end game experience of STO in general sucks.
I appreciate that it's simply not possible to create anything like the amount of content that would be required to give us something new to do every day of every week and I'm not expecting that to happen, but once a newly arrived, one toon player reaches a position similar to mine, they find their end game options to be the following:
1. Get into PVP - which I personally like, but it's just a fact that not everyone does, and not just for QQ 'it's full of hax' reasons, but through a simple and legitimate matter of personal taste. Besides, if it was part of the plan that end-game was supposed to be PVP, I think it would have recieved a little more attention/promotion by now.
2. Get into serious RP and pretend to be a real Starship Captain - again, some people like RP, and some people simply don't. If this were the official line (which I know it isn't) it would be a major cop-out and the lamest excuse ever for the lack of content in a mmo.
3. Check out the foundry missions or make your own one - Now there is merit in this, I am currently working on a foundry project and I've played several very interesting player created missions, but again, this is also a cop-out. Both 2 and 3 read very much like 'There's the all the ships, costumes and other game assets, now go make your own fun.'
4. Concentrate on doing stuff with fleet/make friends, and just knda 'hang out' - this is all good, and for many but not all, kinda the point in playing a mmo versus a single player game, but does logging on and chatting really constitute 'end game'?
5. Spend all your time in game trying to finish off all those accolades or trying to beat the No Win Scenario and others that have eluded you during your time in the game - OK, accolade hunting can be satisfying and at least the content being repeated doesn't feel as 'automatic' if you've not done the story stuff more than once. I guess I'll concede this one but I will say that there are certain missions that really do lose their repeatability after a while. An example? I don't know how many of you have had to get the Ophidian Cane and the Shard of possibilities on 6 toons because you missed the feature episode re-runs... 100% optional to do or not, it still burns....
6. Roll a toon of a different class/race/faction and/or use a ship of a different class with your existing one - so... do it all, all over again...
7. Dedicate the majority of your online time to helping others to learn to play - A noble cause, but again, not something that should be relied upon in favour a more end game content.
8. Stop playing for a few months and check back periodically to see what's changed - Apart from possibly being missed by thier fleet and in-game friends, well, it's simply bad news for Cryptic. If they're Gold, then no more sub money, and if they're LTS, then they'll have a ton of zen when they come back so they won't be spending any more real cash on whatever the latest shiny is.
Now, that's end-game... but the general gist of most of the posts in this thread is kind of asking that the very concept of end game is in the end what makes end game so lame. The 'end game' content should actually just be 'the game'. Sure, have a story, because that's cool and actually, a lot of us really like the STO story, but what I take from this thread is basically a request to make STO game play as linear as the universe in which it is based - as in not at all. And I agree even if I appreciate that it isn't something that can be done tomorrow because I need entertaining.
ALL that said, and for ALL my moaning and groaning in other posts, Kudos to the those in the various teams that do the work that brings us this game. For all its faults, I would still rather have it than not - There's a post on another thread that says this makes me part of the problem
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
The highlighted point is what irritates me the most. It's obvious that without the hardcore trekkies and a few others sticking around, there simply wouldn't be an established player base to keep the game going, but surely it makes more sense to actually try to keep some of the newly repped newbies and try to grow the games population? Or do they actually believe their own hype about that and can't see that a lot of the so-called 'growth' in the number of players is largely a growth in the number of alternate f2p accounts players have? I have no hard evidence for this, but I have heard and read various times from 'official' sources that a growth in the player base usually coincides with some kind of new grind system, the fleet system being the biggest, apparently. I wonder why...
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
The best way to add variety to any game is to maximize the human element. People are often unpredicatable. I am against 'involuntary' pvp because it just ends up being bullies with maxed out equipment going around beating up on people but invited pvp is generally fun. Suggestion: a player is on an episode mission or just traveling around and receives a 'pop-up warning, similar to the type for "Defense Contract", The message should be appropriate to the faction (for Feds something like "Klingons ahead sir" for Klingons, "Enemy approaching on sensors". Now a pvp challenge/invite goes to the players who then have a choice to receive or not.
However, if a player accepts then wins the encounter, they will receive some sort of doff mission type reward/accolade/thing of value, maybe even a small level lockbox randomized to the event. Players can chose to try to negotiate or fight for this and come to an agreement or victory (maybe Feds get an extra "bump" for negotiation and Klingons for battle victories; battles must be won by the victor still having maybe 15-20% hull left when the other ship is destroyed or it is a loss) and the winner receives the prize. Maybe the loser might get some small reward an accolade/diplomacy points etc., to encourage participation. The encounters would be between matching level participants so even the "little guys" will have an opportunity. In other words, random pvp events offered, randomly accepted or declined, with uncertain outcomes and rewards and the unpredictability of human interaction. No one is forced to accept and the pop-ups can be blocked if the player doen't want to participate at that time. Just a thought.
^^^ Look, I just did it there :eek:
On the same thread.. this forum does not operate like Facebook where you have to make a new entry every time you want to say something different. Again, that is what the mythical "Enter" button is for. Its up your walls of text into manageable paragraphs that groups things into lumps of thoughts. Think of each sentence as a bite, and each paragraph as a spoonful of thought you are serving up. Each bite has sustenance; each spoonful is complete onto it's own, yet separate from the bite next to it. It allows your readers to digest what you are trying to feed them. It also makes physically READING it easier, as your eyes won't lose their place.
________________________________________________________________________
(See, I did a hard break there to show that this part of the post contains something unrelated to the first. However, still in the same post to save space. Again, the "Enter" button must be used)
Next thing , While I would love to see this game take on a more organic feeling, I feel like sometimes with these threads people are just requesting features form other games: "I want X from WoW", "Can we have Y like in Star Wars Galaxy?", "EVE does it, why can't we?"
(Again, Paragraph)
Just because it WORKS in another game does not mean it would transition well into STO. Soemthings are designed with different mechanics, audiences, IPs, systems, or programming involved. While we can take cues form other games, I would much rather have STO try to do something unique something that has never been done in an MMO before. I think we still have room for an Open universe with discovery and wonder. Integrating the Foundry missions into the universe better would be a great start, as the thousands of authors can come up with content faster than a couple dozen devs.
(Braces yourself, another paragraph coming)
Minigames, while fun, should not replace the core game. They should be fun in addition to everything else. The Devs should integrate more minigames into the story content, such as radiation scans or the isolinear chip hacking. Simple puzzles, but puzzles nonetheless.
(Even short paragraphs are allowed. That is all I have to say on that topic, so we move on)
There are soemthings we can learn form other games, but this is Star Trek Online, not Star Wars Galaxy 2. We should not reboot it completely.
Indeed, though several persistent world did at this time. I think about some private server of neverwinternight. And like Psycho2 said, RP is fun when you are immersed in the world. That mean that you do RP with other character for something not simply for the sake of RPing.
To Kyeto13, I don't think STO should be totaly rebooted but we state what we all lack in today's MMO : lack of involvement in the game. MMO today are just solo grind game and multi-player grind game if you are in a flee. I would like STO to be more Star Trek and less WH40K when it come to ground mission for example. I don't understand why I have to kill every one and that no discussion or negociation take place. But much more I need that something in the world is a stake not simply to think about my reward.
In a harder game (with friendly fire) I was far more involved when I was going to retreive other player bodies to be ressed than when I am going to save a NPC, the same moronic npc that will be here to be saved wether I do it or not. Ok,, repeteable quest are needed, but activity that have an impact are more important in the long run.
I'd like difficult puzzle by the way but that personnal.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
I want Dev's to take lessons from other games and not just a select few that financially did well. Not asking for a serious reboot just a bit of a different direction for the future. Ill be the first to say STO would not have bin ready as a game to intake the changes I've asked for a year or 2 ago because there wouldn't be a good enough story and combat base to work off of. However, the STO story line is strong and there's a good variety of combat oriented things to do, they could spend some time on the things this Thread is asking for.
With that being said I agree that theres a lack of puzzles and mini games in the story line and although it should not become a crutch which the Devs lean on, it would go along way to making you feel as though this is not just a future themed hack and slash. There are a few good examples in this game but they never became a standardize part of STO.
Also I apologize kyeto13 I don't use Facebook and I rarely use forums so I know not the format which most people use when in forums. I'm working on it.
And skanvak, yeah agree completely.
Being in the same fleet with the OP has expanded the game so much for me as im not just doing PUG stfs.
I am now up to 3 Toons because i wanted to experiement with the different play styles, and i have to say its sorely dissapointing running the same missions over and over again do so.
The lack of choice in diesgining the Fleet starbases is abysmal. Why did they all have to look exactly alike. We could have had at least a little choice there.
The designs and color schemes for ships could be played with some to add more variety, hence whi i am excited for my corvette so i can at least make it look cool.
A little sense of scale in ships would be nice. I think i have some of the biggest corridors in the universe on my ships. Was it planned to be able to pilot shuttles through them? :eek:
I would like to see a little more leeway in choosing where your bridge officers sit, I mean come on i am a vice admiral and cannot have my commander science doing his full duty.
Maybe i dont want overdone DPS in my Escort, Maybe i would like to have a little more science in my Exploration cruiser. Maybe i want more tactical in my Dreadnaught.
I giggle when i see people complaining about not being able to have X types weapons on a ship, or why does KDF have (blank) or FED doesn't have (blank).
Variety is key, and the reasons most MMO games go down the tubes is because of the lack of variety.
F2P is usally the sign that a game is dying. i dont want to see this game go, id like to mix it up a little. Having quarters on our fleet starbase would be nice. Maybe some more stfs. Holoemitters you can get lead to a lot of fun but they just dont last. I would kind of like to have a mobile emitter, be an ECH, (Emergency Command Hologram) and have all kinds of costume options like the aliens selection does. :P
I know its rumored better carrier commands are on the way, but i would like to see those commands to come to all ships that have deployable pets, I.E. the oddyssey, Saucer seprations. And a little counter at the very least so i know how many of my tiny starfighters i have still flying around after a cube blows up.
There is so much i would like to say and see in this game. There is a lot of oppurtunity here. We do not need it all in one fell swoop, a little at a time would be ok. Nobody said this game is broken, but it has a long way to go to keep people playing and interested.
Nothing survives when the players think "maybe if i leave it alone for a month it will get better" come back and there is ONE new thing to do.
I did love the colony idea, Spy would be exited because the Fleet could make its own city, and we could have fancy parties. :eek:
Repetition is ok, but we need variety.
and i am done for now before i start getting repetetive.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
With that being said I have watched the F2P market form. I have personally watched F2P go from the realm of cheap small time games to the Standard. This is due to the Large number of WoW clones which were unable to gain the long term popularity which WoW enjoyed for so many years. Due to this saturation more games rapidly failed and died after WoW then ever before.
As far as I've witnessed from playing various games, the major recurring theme in the games which started off as or ended up going to the F2P Format is they lacked the immersion which people looked for in a game. They lacked the ability to come and live in the environment and have new strange occurrences unfold before you because the game was programed to allow for it.
Silkroad had so much repetitive grinding in it there are companies who make money off monthly subscriptions to bots for the game so they can walk away and level up. I called SWTOR going F2P in beta test because it felt like a free to play game. The world was amazing I mean really amazing, the story was incredible and omg voiced over, but you got to the end and you were done. Tabula Rasa was a stronghold attack and defend based Theme park game. It wouldn't go free to play and it died, taking some of its strongest points along with it to be buried forever. Global Agenda focused so much on pvp it was an MMO with no environment or story at all. APB was basically the essentials of GTA poorly replicated. DCU amazing game in its own right id even almost say worth paying for but running around a world beating up bad guys and bad guy npcs only lasts so long and then you need another character to play. The list goes on.
What im essentially getting at is the shift in p2p to f2p was not caused by the players but by the market driving what the players play and their response to what's available. People will pay to invest their time if they feel it is a means to an end. If someone feels they have the capacity to build themselves an empire they will strive for it even if its nearly impossible to do. If on the other had a person feels they have done all they can and there is nothing else for them they will stop.
ITS all about what you program not how you program. Perfect evidence is SWTOR at release was like 34GiGs just an amazingly large amount of time and effort and the game bombed because it was boring. STO way more fun, takes up less room, and would seem to have a far greater scalability as far as potential game play is concerned, but still suffers from the same problems plaguing other MMOs at this point in time, A lack of different goals.
id count rep system under "making your character the most battle ready" which is a singular goal in the big picture.
I posed the question, as a person, what keeps me wanting to wake up every day and live. Condense the response into a game and people will play it every day. Sometimes its the simple things, sometimes its not but they're both relevant to your life.
SWOTOR could have been so much more. If lucasarts has learned anything we didnt want short and sweet, ala force unleashed. star wars games always had so much missed potential. And this is where STO really shines. sure ground can leave a little to be desired, but SPACE has so many options. and the characters you can make and customizability and soooo many races.
and i guess i missed my own point with my earlier post
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Pen & Paper mmos have the benefit of allowing you to create what ever you can imagine as long as it is within certain guild lines which structure the game. Modern MMOS have lost that. Many developers have never even played a pen & paper RPG the basic model which they intend to make money off of on the computer. It goes beyond star wars galaxies it goes beyond SWTOR it goes beyond any computer game out there I don't want star wars galaxies I think what I really want is what makes pen and paper rpgs so good to come back into the modern computer RPG.
People honestly will pay to play if they can pretend they are someone else. to be absolutely honest with my self I would like to pretend I am someone else when I play my MMOs.
I'm ok with the queue's I understand they have a place, but when they made the Nukara Hard Missions Queued instances that drew the line for me that just means now I don't ever have to go to Nukara again because that was the only reason I ever went there. Season 8 sounds like its going to be a let down from the get go. I already have large numbers of people in two fleet chats talking about how unimpressive the State of Game sounded to them.
On top of that pre- nukara ground missions conversion to Queue missions, people had to actually travel to the planet and talk to people and cooperate and they did! very well! Now you can get a group of mutes and half the time they don't know what they are doing. It feels extremely planed out. Its like Super Mario Bros For the N64 and the galaxy is the castle you walk around in to get from one instance to another except for the walking part.
It would help take some of the overabundance of EC out of the world as well
Until they update the map so you dont have to guess at which system is in which sector, i would have to say no to that.
And as far as repetition in games goes, well look at C.O.D. that is literally nothing but repetition, but you have reasons to keep doing the same TRIBBLE over and over again. End game in STO is literally END GAME. its oh look you havea ll this stuff. keep doing PvE or PvP it might be fun. Busting your butt for most times marginally better things is erdundant not repetetive.
As for the DayZ standalone, i give much credit to a simple ARMA Mod becoing a huge hit and taking off into its own game. Yes its an MMORPG but so different than every other game. Its not about the grind its about the survival, and if you die you start all over again, thats a brilliant zombie game, and i for one look forward to when it hits "shelves" so i can have a hopefully very fun zombie game to play.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Psycho, though I share you point of view on PnP RPG or TRPG (I did a lot), I think that today RPG come from console RPG/adventure/Diablo which make a gap between the original TRPG and the actual MMORPG. This gap explain the loss of purpose in the character life.
They focus on the "gros bill" way of play "we play of XP and Gear" and forget the roleplay and actual involvement in the game (if I don't save the princess, well she is not saved, that will impact the fictionnal world I am in).
They misunderstand that in TRPG the leveling speed was very slow in real time. Battle was limited actually and very challenging and rewarding. Coming to computer battle became fast so they had to reduce the xp but the leveling is still too fast because you don't need to gather friend to play and there is no end play.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
Only thing I really disagree with, is this. Everyone in a fleet needs to be able to do this
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
But I digress. The problem is absolutely that the TRPG as you called it made the base model for how an MMO functions today but the key to realize is that the concept of RPG System was not to be a game but be a way of recreating a hypothetical Real Life in the confines of your imagination using mathematics. Because of this the RPG system could be used to tell stories such as mass effect, WoW other games of that type.
However, due to the success of games such as WoW and mass effect the development community has started creating very simple games with large masses of added content like one might print the next novel in a series of books. They have forgotten that the RPG System is capable of far more then they use it for today. When computer RPGs came out they were designed by people who wanted that addicting RPG experience without having to roll dice and wait your turn. Now MMO games are made by old WoW players, and the way they're built would imply the way to "beat the game" is to be king of the hill brute force through and through no real point to acquiring money except to spend it on the best stuff. The biggest joke of the modern MMO RPG is no ones a civilian and you can really only be so good at killing stuff. If your the best at killing stuff you can only kill so much before it just becomes all the same to you.
Would be good if some of those things were implemented.
I hope STO get's better ...