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The Tactical Console Mystery
peevil31
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This post is outdated. Thanks to all the informative comments I've since changed my views. Thank you all for taking the time to respond.
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Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
Do you happen to know if the bonus dmg tactical consoles give is boosted by damage boosts such as weapon power, apa, apo, tf, gdf, gamma, or skills, eptw etc. i know this would be easy to test but.. the server is down
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Clearly I'm missing some vital piece of information. According to all the forum reading research I've done, there is, in fact a diminish.
What source are you quoting? Where did you get this information? A link perhaps, with irrefutable, easy to digest explanation/definition?
I've tested it myself, each identical console does indeed give the same bonus to damage, with no diminishing returns. Now, because it is the same bonus for each one, each additional one gives a smaller percentage boost to your total damage, which may be where you're getting confused. That is, say your weapons are 800 DPS without tac consoles, and each console adds 50 DPS (those aren't accurate numbers, just an illustration of how it works), that means that the first one is giving a 50/800=6.25% boost, the second is a 50/850=5.88% boost, the third is a 50/900=5.56% boost, etc. There is an actual formula for this stuff out there somewhere, but I don't know what it is.
my source? i went out and started adding consoles in space to see what the boosts were.
I think you and perhaps a lot of other people are missing my point. My console reads, in the description, 'Increases Antiproton damage by 26%'. In what universe, under what non-newtonian laws does that make sense or even approach reality in?
Copied from your text above: "(those aren't accurate numbers, just an illustration of how it works)". The parenthesis'd waver of any factual representation also leads me to believe you're just quoting some other person's intelligent seeming post and not, as you said "tested it".
Then again, I've been wrong about more important things. Either way it's a TRIBBLE shoot way to have things represented on Cryptic's developers part. No?
sigh and this is where i wonder at why people insist on complexity instead of simplicity. the formula is very simple. boost = console percent * base damage. for multiple boost consoles it's still the same. say 4 consoles.
[console percent * base damage] + [console percent * base damage] + [console percent * base damage] +[console percent * base damage] + base damage = final damage number.
with your example its : [50] + [50] + [50] + [50] + 800 = 1000 final damage number
as for powers/skills they modify the base damage which is why a ship with more tac slots is always better than a ship with less.
how do i know this? get a torpedo. add one console. check the number. activate high yield. check number. add second console. check number. activate high yield.
you will see that the final number will be higher than it should if it just modifies the final damage number. the maths is a bit convoluted but the final numbers only work if the high yield skill is modifying the base number. then the consoles boosts are added based on that modified base number.
ps the descriptors on the various consoles are false. they used to be true long ago pre free to play but not anymore.
Mk 0 damage * (skills + consoles + set bonuses / 100) + Mk bonus damage
That figure is your base weapon damage, which is then multiplied by double your current weapon power (for energy weapons. Projectiles are unaffected by weapon power).
Insert Sarcasm: No console then add console, take tally. There's no way Crytpic's in-game depiction of DPS change could be completely untrue.
Without a "punching bag" scenario. We will never know for sure. STO, when compared to other MMOs is ridiculously hard to accurately parse.
How come, in almost all the threads relating to this subject, there are a multitude of people who state that NOT having max number allowed of Energy-Specific consoles 'seems' better to them? You've clearly stated that this is not the case.
Could it be that the 'hover over DPS' value is about as viable as saying, "Star Trek Online is glitch free!"?
There is a punching bag scenario - just go to Infected the conduit with some like-minded testers, clear the first cube and spheres, then have the tester sit under the gate and fire up into it while it continually heals. If you are positioned right, you can be below the gate, something like 1.5 k away, and still not be shot in return, so you can just sit and plink away.
I admire your zest for actual testing - I strongly suspect, however, that you will find that consoles work as has been explained (linear modifiers to base damage), as that has always appeared to be the case to me. More testing never hurt, though.
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what if instead of stacking 30% and 20% equal 50%...we get a multiplier...30% and then the total boosted another 20%?
examples...4x 30% energy consoles stack up to 120% added damage, or 220% total
3x energy with a multiplied 30% would be 190% for the base energy...then with an additional 20% on top...creating 228%...a gain of 8%
2x energy would be 160%...then with 2x weapon damage at 40%...224%...so diminishing returns
now lets see 5 tac slots...
5x 30% is 150%...so 250% before starship power lvls mods
4x 30% is 220% then multiplied by 20%...264%
3x 30% is 190% then multiplied by 40%...266%
past that...you get diminishing returns...
and again, this is ASSUMING that a disruptor coil works on a separate modifier than a prefire console...
/sigh
Bareel has posted that in multiple threads. I've reposted it in multiple threads while giving examples of certain things.
If anything, I'm usually posting about them in regard to how folks buying VR Mk XIIs are usually getting ripped off...lol.
Yeah, it would be nifty if somebody could write something up that was pretty - but I've no idea how you could go 10 hours without finding something.
Say I go over to the Search. I type in: tac console energy damage
What's the first post on the second page?
That was 5 days ago...
As far as testing it shouldn't be harder than 1 vs 1 and swap consoles around
Yep, if you've got a +30% console and are running beams - each console adds 30 damage before weapon power (which comes before buffs/abilities/etc). If you're sporting DHCs, each +30% console adds 52.2 damage before weapon power/etc.
Bareel posted the following to make it easier for folks to do it quickly:
That base DPV is of a TRIBBLE/Mk 0 weapon - since the rarity and Mk contribute to the formula as well.
They're not boosting the base damage shown in the tooltip when hovering over a weapon - that number is already boosted.
Many people don't know how tac consoles work and spread misinformation. A few people do know how they work; they are usually the ones that post the long "mathematical theses". Look at the post by bareel that virusdancer quoted above. I'm not sure what you are complaining about here. To understand how the math behind tac consoles work, you need math.
Tac consoles do not have diminishing returns. Each tac console adds a percentage of the base damage of a common Mk 0 version of the weapon. See the post by bareel quoted above for specifics.
To be fair, whenever Cryptic says something buffs a stat by a percentage, that percentage is usually a percentage of a base value that is seldom shown in the tooltips. This makes it difficult for players to figure out how things work. A few players have reverse engineered some of the game's mechanics and posted the results of their work. Unsurprisingly, those posts involve math. I don't see any way around that. Of course, things would be simpler if Cryptic gave us better tooltips.
There are no diminishing returns on tactical consoles. They all apply a flat number bonus based on the base damage of the weapon. They've always worked that way. There's no mystery, no conspiracy, and no reason to get upset.
Seriously. A noob (in general) will sometimes find tactical consoles confusing, thinking they have diminishing returns, not understanding tact consoles work off of base dmg. So, the noob will fit a second purple Mk XII console, and think "Hey, I'm not getting an extra 30%! Diminishing returns!!" Not so. To give an example. Assume a base dmg of 100. Then add 1 purple Mk XII console:
100 -> 130
Now add 3 more purple Mk XII consoles:
130 -> 160
160 -> 190
190 -> 220
So, in the last case, you're not getting 30% of 190 (= 57), but still only +30.
Since pretty much all that matters is DPS is most content in the game, who cares if a console gives you + 30% or +8%, its still a + in the right direction.
I disagree. With diminishing returns, it would soon be worthwile to fit another type of tact console (maybe to boost your torp/mine dmg?). Like you don't typically fit 4x Neutroniums: they have diminishing returns; so, past 3 you're probably better off fitting something else useful (plasmonic leech, maybe?).
My point being: with diminishing returns, it's no longer a simple matter of "It's still a + in the right direction." So, if tact consoles had diminishing returns too, it would not at all be a foregone conclusion that just fitting all tact consoles with the same dmg type were always the best and only choice.
http://puu.sh/2KqGu
http://puu.sh/2KqHH
http://puu.sh/2KqJq
http://puu.sh/2KqKC
http://puu.sh/2KqLV
Flat addition according to percentage of base damage.
I dont get why people just dont try things themselves instead of raising a fuss in the forums
As for punching bag, just make a foundry mission
Because people suffer from delusions of grandeur and think some ****ty "4 dmg type consoles build" MUST be better then a pure build, so they go all lengths, even disregarding KNOWN and PROVEN facts, to "justify" their very own, very wrong, ideas of how things work.
no diminishing returns on tac consoles (consoles that buff only cannons or beams suck compared to energy type consoles)
but diminishing returns on armor consoles...
imo this all makes no sense. There should be a diminishing return on tac consoles, to make a torpedo - energy weapon mix much more viable. Never should there be more than 3 consoles of the same type on a ship. would make ships with less than 4 tac console slots a lot more viable.
But we're not talking about Neutroniums, we are talking about energy damage consoles. Operating under the assumption you are trying to simply max dps (and I understand not everyone does this, but that is my audience), unless you've got more than 5 universal consoles that are helping you in this regard, any dps is good dps.
I quit with one Neut, because of the DR. The combination of skills/buffs, more than one and it's eating pretty heavy DR.
Right off the back, it's important to know how much DR one is actually getting from say a blue Neut Mk XI with its +17.5...
DR=(3*(0.25-(75/(150+DRM))^2)) is the formula for determining DR.
So, +17.5 DRM/DRR gives us: 14.9% DR.
A second +17.5 and our DR is 25.7%.
A third +17.5 and our DR is 33.8%.
From one to two is an increase of 10.8%. From two to three is an increase of 8.1%.
But that's with no skills or buffs. How about just some skills and accolade, eh? Looking at Energy DR...
+2 DRR (Accolade)
+5.4 DRR (3 levels of Threat Control)
+12.6 DRR (6 levels of Hull Plating)
So our DR to start would be 16.6%.
Add that first Neut and it's 27.0%. That first Neut provided a boost of +10.4% instead of +14.9%.
Add the second to get 34.9% - a gain of +7.9%.
Add the third to get 40.9% - a gain of +6%.
But hey, 40.9% is good even if the third is only giving +6%, right? Depends on the build and the buffs/abilities one has. APO, APD, AtS, HE, Scattering Field, BFI for Kinetic, PH, etc, etc, etc, etc...
...folks need to look at what they're flying, which means breaking out a calculator and doing the math.
Note, the previous wasn't directed at you specifically by any means - was just a little info for somebody that might have read what you said and decided they needed to run 3x Neut.
One can play with the language some, to say that they have diminishing returns regarding overall DPV/DPS - but they do not have diminishing returns in of themselves. A +30 is always a +30, unlike with the Neut - where they've got DR right off the back - even the first is not giving you the number it shows.
For example, from that other thing that I quoted myself on earlier in the thread - looking at a VR Mk XII Beam Array for somebody with 9 levels of Weapon Training, 9 levels of Energy Weapons, and the Omega Weapon Training passive...and then adding VR Mk XII Tac consoles (keep in mind, this is without buffs which would further increase damage and require recalculations):
w/0 Consoles
Base = 100 (100 is the DPV of a TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Beam Array)
+ (100 * (1.299 * 0.5)) = 164.95 (Weapon Training - 9 Skill Levels +30 from the Omega Weapon Training passive)
+ (100 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 214.9 (Energy Weapons - 9 Skill Levels)
+ (100 * 1.2) = 334.9 (Mark XII)
+ (100 * (4 * 0.025)) = 344.9 (Very Rare)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 862.25 (@125 Weapon Power)
And so we see what our "base" DPV would be...
w/1 Console
Base = 100 (100 is the DPV of a TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Beam Array)
+ (100 * (1.299 * 0.5)) = 164.95 (Weapon Training - 9 Skill Levels +30 from the Omega Weapon Training passive)
+ (100 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 214.9 (Energy Weapons - 9 Skill Levels)
+ (100 * 1.2) = 334.9 (Mark XII)
+ (1 * (100 * 0.30)) = 364.9 (1x VR Mk XII console)
+ (100 * (4 * 0.025)) = 374.9 (Very Rare)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 937.25 (@125 Weapon Power)
So, we can see that a +30 console gave us +8.7% DPV up through this point (no buffs/debuffs/etc).
w/2 Consoles
Base = 100 (100 is the DPV of a TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Beam Array)
+ (100 * (1.299 * 0.5)) = 164.95 (Weapon Training - 9 Skill Levels +30 from the Omega Weapon Training passive)
+ (100 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 214.9 (Energy Weapons - 9 Skill Levels)
+ (100 * 1.2) = 334.9 (Mark XII)
+ (2 * (100 * 0.30)) = 394.9 (2x VR Mk XII consoles)
+ (100 * (4 * 0.025)) = 404.9 (Very Rare)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1012.25 (@125 Weapon Power)
Adding the second +30 console gave us an additional +8.0% DPV through this point. Aha, the appearance of diminishing returns, eh?
w/3x Consoles
Base = 100 (100 is the DPV of a TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Beam Array)
+ (100 * (1.299 * 0.5)) = 164.95 (Weapon Training - 9 Skill Levels +30 from the Omega Weapon Training passive)
+ (100 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 214.9 (Energy Weapons - 9 Skill Levels)
+ (100 * 1.2) = 334.9 (Mark XII)
+ (3 * (100 * 0.30)) = 424.9 (3x VR Mk XII consoles)
+ (100 * (4 * 0.025)) = 434.9 (Very Rare)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1087.25 (@125 Weapon Power)
A third console? Well, that adds +7.4% more DPV. More pesky diminishing returns.
w/4 Consoles
Base = 100 (100 is the DPV of a TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Beam Array)
+ (100 * (1.299 * 0.5)) = 164.95 (Weapon Training - 9 Skill Levels +30 from the Omega Weapon Training passive)
+ (100 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 214.9 (Energy Weapons - 9 Skill Levels)
+ (100 * 1.2) = 334.9 (Mark XII)
+ (4 * (100 * 0.30)) = 454.9 (4x VR Mk XII consoles)
+ (100 * (4 * 0.025)) = 464.9 (Very Rare)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1162.25 (@125 Weapon Power)
With a fourth, we get +6.9% out of it. This is undeniably a case of diminishing returns, no?
How about a quick example with some buffs? 0->1->2, with APO1 & EPtW1, eh?
w/0 Consoles
Base = 100 (100 is the DPV of a TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Beam Array)
+ (100 * (1.299 * 0.5)) = 164.95 (Weapon Training - 9 Skill Levels +30 from the Omega Weapon Training passive)
+ (100 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 214.9 (Energy Weapons - 9 Skill Levels)
+ (100 * 1.2) = 334.9 (Mark XII)
+ (100 * (4 * 0.025)) = 344.9 (Very Rare)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 862.25 (@125 Weapon Power)
New Base = 862.25
+ (862.25 * 0.142 ) = 984.6895 (APO1)
+ (862.25 * 0.1) = 1070.9145 (EPtW1)
That's our new "base" buffed DPV...
w/1 Console
Base = 100 (100 is the DPV of a TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Beam Array)
+ (100 * (1.299 * 0.5)) = 164.95 (Weapon Training - 9 Skill Levels +30 from the Omega Weapon Training passive)
+ (100 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 214.9 (Energy Weapons - 9 Skill Levels)
+ (100 * 1.2) = 334.9 (Mark XII)
+ (1 * (100 * 0.30)) = 364.9 (1x VR Mk XII console)
+ (100 * (4 * 0.025)) = 374.9 (Very Rare)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 937.25 (@125 Weapon Power)
New Base = 937.25
+ (937.25 * 0.142) = 1070.3395 (APO1)
+ (937.25 * 0.1) = 1164.0645 (EPtW1)
So the single +30 console is still giving us the +8.7%, right? More or less, there might be some rounding issues here and there. But that's the way the formula works. We should see the same +8% increase for the second console as we did without buffs.
w/2 Consoles
Base = 100 (100 is the DPV of a TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Beam Array)
+ (100 * (1.299 * 0.5)) = 164.95 (Weapon Training - 9 Skill Levels +30 from the Omega Weapon Training passive)
+ (100 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 214.9 (Energy Weapons - 9 Skill Levels)
+ (100 * 1.2) = 334.9 (Mark XII)
+ (2 * (100 * 0.30)) = 394.9 (2x VR Mk XII consoles)
+ (100 * (4 * 0.025)) = 404.9 (Very Rare)
* (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1012.25 (@125 Weapon Power)
New Base = 1012.25
+ (1012.25 * 0.142) = 1155.9895 (APO1)
+ (1012.25 * 0.1) = 1257.2145 (EPtW1)
Tada, the same (roughly) +8.0% that the second provided without the buffs. It's just the way the formula works (and it's also why there is an increasing issue between Beam Arrays and DHCs - DHCs have a 1.74:1 DPV ratio vs. Beams - as the damage increases, the amount reflected by that ratio increases It's +74 at 100 dmg, 740 at 1000 dmg, etc, etc - so while a fixed ratio may look good, it's going to cause problems in the long run...imho, separate issue).
So...
...while it is fine to say:
Neuts have diminishing returns because of the way they affect the end value.
Tac consoles do not have diminishing returns because they always add the same value.
...it's also fine to say:
Neuts do not have diminishing returns because they always add the same value.
Tac consoles have diminishing returns because of the way they affect the end value.
It's apples and oranges, both are right as long as you're comparing like with like. Since we're generally concerned with those end values though...
Both Neuts and Tac consoles have diminishing returns.
How about some bonus fun, eh? Sure, I'm waiting on the CD for "Flying High" - so let's have some more fun.
Say you've got two weapons and two Tac consoles - rainbow is horribad, right? Let's stick with arrays and VR Mk XIIs (that way I can just use the numbers from above - I'm going unbuffed, as we saw the % increase was the same - reason I actually did that):
2x w/0 Consoles: 1724.5
2x w/1 Console: 1874.5
2x w/2 Consoles: 2024.5
That was the simple part. Let's make it more complicated. I'll use A for the Weapon#1 and B for Weapon#2.
A w/0 Consoles: 862.25
B w/0 Consoles: 862.25
Total: 1724.5
A w/1 Console: 937.25
B w/0 Console: 862.25
Total: 1799.5
So you can see that's a loss of ~4.2% DPV.
A w/2 Consoles: 1012.25
B w/0 Console: 862.25
Total: 1874.5
So you can see that's a loss of ~8.0% DPV.
What about...
A w/1 Console: 937.25
B w/1 Console: 937.25
Total: 1874.5
So you can see that's a loss of...oh...wait, there's no loss compared to the 2x w/2 Consoles.
How about we try 2 weapons with 4 consoles vs. 2 different weapons with 2 consoles each?
2 w/4 Consoles: 2324.5
A w/2 Consoles: 1012.25
B w/2 Consoles: 1012.25
Total: 2024.5
So we can see that's a loss of 14.8%...sheesh!
So outside of having 2 Tac consoles and an even number of weapons, going with two energy types will obviously have an adverse affect on your DPS. Does that mean if you've got 2 Tac consoles and 6 or 8 weapons, that it's okay or a good thing to go with two types? That's going to get into decreased probability of various procs - which in turn could have that adverse affect on your DPS...but again, you're only running 2 Tac consoles...how much are you concerned with DPS? But still, that gets into weighing your options on those procs. Do you mind less probability for having two or would you prefer more probability with one?
It can get pretty complicated...but that's what makes it fun for some of us.
Consider the following weapon loadout, eh?
Torp, 2x DHC, DBB fore and 3x Turrets aft...then consider the BOFF abilities...and yeah, it can be loads of fun breaking out a spreadsheet, calculator, and some caffeine.
1 Neutronium is the absolute minimum for me. Usually I fit 2 'enhanced' ones now, like on a Recluse, that come with extra, built-in turn rate -- adding new considerations into the mix.
As for the rest, your numbers are impressive, as always; so, thank you for those!
Oh yeah, couldn't quit with one on my builds if I didn't have the one there.
It's definitely going to vary from person to person from build to build. Heh, it's just my builds don't vary that much. The 9 guys, all of them have the same 220-240k (can never remember) SP out of the 300k I spend on Space skills. 8 of the 9 have AtS (one's AtB). All have HE. They're either sporting APO (sometimes multiple copies) or they're sporting APD. And they've all got one Neut.
Both the E-Neuts and E-RCS look pretty nifty. If I didn't take care of my RCS needs with a single Tachyo, I'd be curious to take a look at a mix of a E-Neut [+Turn] and E-RCS [+AllRes]...some folks rung multiple RCS with their Neut, so for them - it could be interesting to Tachyo, E-RCS, E-Neut.
Hrmm...+31.8 DRR & + (+42.5% & +21.2% Turn) vs. +42.4 DRR & + (2x +21.2% Turn) vs. +21.2 DRR & + (2x +42.5% Turn)...
I'd try to do the math, but for the life of me I can't remember how the turn formula works, lol...