2x Purple Damage Control Engineer
2x Purple Shield Distribution
1x Purple Space Warfare (10% DMG against Borg)
Torpedo Variation:
Adapted MACO Engine + Deflector
Replace one DHC with Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo
Replace Shield Distribution Doffs with Projectile Weapon Doffs
So at 8K I'm not *that* far off with my Fleet Patrol. Seems like what I need are some better Doffs. Can you tell me how your Tac Skill points were applied as you leveled up? Looking for guidance if/when I re-spec my toon.
Also, is the Rommie torp much better than the Omega Torp (Plasma Energy Bolt)?
That basically sums up the cruiser conundrum. Escorts are very easy to take and give massive damage output and decent tank. You can do it with mk X white gear and a generally informed BOff layout. However, on the cruiser side of things, you need mk XII purple gear, a very specific BOff layout, and you will only do respectable damage with acceptable tank.
Escorts = cheapsimpleeasymode
Cruisers = expensiveneedtoknowgameinsideandouttobeusefulmode
KDF Battlecruiser = godmode (seriously, those things are insanely wonderfully epically amazingly awesome)
I think you're missing the other side of it. Cruisers take more resources/time to get set up, but are also the beginner ship. It can carry anyone to lvl 50. I can only imagine this was done to appeal to the fans because the Enterprise has always been a cruiser (of course, I'm dismissive of the Enterprise in general, so I don't get the fan reaction.... I also don't get what the big deal with the Ent-F is; is it a cautionary tale that if you loose your Defiant by staying still like a noob you'll get demoted to a cruiser?).
Overall, considering dps vs durability I think its even between escorts and cruisers. the thing to keep in mind is that they play very, very differently. Escorts destroy things one baddie at a time, while cruisers like to wade in doing a disco ball impersonation and laugh at the puny Borg/Elachi/Tholians/Baddie of the week.
Well, I swapped out my 4x Quantums for 2x more Mark 12 Polaron Beams, a Cutting Beam and an Omega Torp. Got my DPS up to 7.2K on my Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit, so...moving in the right direction.
Also, is the Rommie torp much better than the Omega Torp (Plasma Energy Bolt)?
On one of my highest runs, the only Doff contributing to dmg was the Borg space warface specialist with +10% dmg againgst Borg. The others are for defense and keeping two emergency powers up all the time. Please note, that due to the changes to emergency powers, EPtW now gives a boost to energy weapon dmg over its full duration. Even EPtW1 is now way more effective than a fifth purple tac console.
Regarding torpedoes, it doesn't really matter. Just don't equip projectile weapon doffs with the Omega launcher. Without torpedoes, I do bit more dmg than with torpedoes.
These are my skill points. Driver Coil is for convenience only.
Well, I swapped out my 4x Quantums for 2x more Mark 12 Polaron Beams, a Cutting Beam and an Omega Torp. Got my DPS up to 7.2K on my Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit, so...moving in the right direction.
You see? Now imagine that with the addition of APB2 and BFAW2 and on top of that two copies of Aux2Bat with technician doffs, giving you a 2/3 uptime of APB2 and thus 2/3 of the time +40% dmg against hull and suddenly you are in the range we talked about. Like I said, it's quite boring, but also very funny when escort captains are asking you about your secret magic beam weapons . Then you just say "Polaron, it's the best".
On Top of that and finally back to topic, you will be the cruiser that everyone imagines it to be. A beam wielding sturdy death machine.
One hour of FleischmannTV saves one square kilometre of precious peble wasteland.
You see? Now imagine that with the addition of APB2 and BFAW2 and on top of that two copies of Aux2Bat with technician doffs, giving you a 2/3 uptime of APB2 and thus 2/3 of the time +40% dmg against hull and suddenly you are in the range we talked about.
The problem is I only have a single LC Tac slot. This means if I swap out for APB2 I lose my current HYT3. I could move to HYT1, but then I lose my BFAW1. And if I swap out for BFAW2, I lose my BO2.
Simply not enough ability slots to work with on the FAHC bridge layout.
UPDATE: Swapped in AB2 along with BFAW1 and HYT2 and ended up dropping DPS a bit. I guess I got more out of BO2, especially when combined with DEM2.
APB2 benefits every weapon during its uptime. You are trading that of for an ability which only boosts a single weapon slot. I would loose the torpedo ability for the combination of TT1, BFAW2, APB2. Should you one day get a fleet assault cruiser, you would get a much appreciated ensign tactical, as opposed to the abonimable ensign tactical of the FAHCR.
But hey, no worries. With the above mentioned 7.2k, you already dealing 3-4k more than the average Star Cruiser or Odyssey captain, who doesn't know what he's doing. In fact you are already above at least half if not two thirds of the average escort captains. You are more than carrying your weight, which gives you the freedom to do whatever pleases you.
One hour of FleischmannTV saves one square kilometre of precious peble wasteland.
APB2 benefits every weapon during its uptime. You are trading that of for an ability which only boosts a single weapon slot. I would loose the torpedo ability for the combination of TT1, BFAW2, APB2. Should you one day get a fleet assault cruiser, you would get a much appreciated ensign tactical, as opposed to the abonimable ensign tactical of the FAHCR.
But hey, no worries. With the above mentioned 7.2k, you already dealing 3-4k more than the average Star Cruiser or Odyssey captain, who doesn't know what he's doing. In fact you are already above at least half if not two thirds of the average escort captains. You are more than carrying your weight, which gives you the freedom to do whatever pleases you.
Well, I just had my best run: 8.4K in CSE. Looks like the APB2 is working out - though I'm keeping the HYT2 since I need it to trigger the Plasma Bolt. I may swap around for HYT1 and BFAW2, though, since the beam weapons are the "heavy lifters" in the mix and the Plasma Bolt just needs a trigger.
Regardless, I've already surpassed my best score in an escort, so...thanks!
Still going to grab a re-spec token tomorrow. I'm going to mimic your Skills layout and see what kind of impact it has on my weapons performance. Since I have *zero* points in specialization I'm expecting a dramatic change - though I may switch to AP vs. POL before I apply the points (better against the Borg).
Only little bit smaller size with higher hull and alot less crew is easily said strength of the hull, if you pack a lot metal inside that ship, your ship has more hull and less space for crew, I'm sure you can tweak this a lil bit to get everything in order, same is with strength of the metal, huge TRIBBLE paper plane has weak hull and a lot of crew when tiny metal plane has higher hull with less crew.
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
After a month and a half of grinding the Rom, Omega and Nukara rep my cruiser now does over 10k DPS on an ISE, it takes time and good planning for a good build and its not always about escorts. 5k is considered a good ship for ESTF, with Dominion Beams and Jem set MK XI and regular FED fighters my carrier was able to do more than that, and that is an Atrox not something ppl associate with heavy hitting (now outfitted almost fully with Rom Rep Gear). About the only ship I have that still does ridiculous amounts of damage is my bug ship, but that ship was made on purpose that way.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
I think you're missing the other side of it. Cruisers take more resources/time to get set up, but are also the beginner ship. It can carry anyone to lvl 50. I can only imagine this was done to appeal to the fans because the Enterprise has always been a cruiser (of course, I'm dismissive of the Enterprise in general, so I don't get the fan reaction.... I also don't get what the big deal with the Ent-F is; is it a cautionary tale that if you loose your Defiant by staying still like a noob you'll get demoted to a cruiser?).
Overall, considering dps vs durability I think its even between escorts and cruisers. the thing to keep in mind is that they play very, very differently. Escorts destroy things one baddie at a time, while cruisers like to wade in doing a disco ball impersonation and laugh at the puny Borg/Elachi/Tholians/Baddie of the week.
Cruisers may be the beginner ship, but at end-game they are overshadowed quite heavily by a properly built escort. If you took an escort, and put in the time, ECs, dil, and effort you put into a cruiser (same for both), in the end, the escort would come out on top. It would have much much MUCH higher damage, and still retain a good portion of the tank.
The problem stems from the lower tier engi and sci abilities (more specifically the heals) being insanely powerful, while the lower tier tac abilities are quite lackluster. Compare EPtS1 to EPtS3.
EPtS1 (no skills, and this is from memory so it might be slightly off):
+20 power to SS
+~20% resilience to shields
+1200 heal applied to each facing
EPtS3
+30 power to SS
+~30% resilience to shields
+~2500 or 3k heal applied to each facing
The EPtS1 is almost as powerful as the level 3 version of that skill. It's only slightly weaker, and it's an ensign level ability. Now let's look at tactical.
APO1 (again, no skills etc)
+10% all damage
+100% move speed and turn rate
+~15% defense bonus
Hold/snare immunity
APO3
+20% (might be higher) all damage
+120% move speed and turn rate
+~20% defense bonus (probably higher)
Hold/snare immunity
Comparing those two tactical skills, which are only separated by one rank, it's HUGE. Most of the APs are like that. Their level 1 versions are weak. Their level 2 versions are pretty powerful, and their level 3 versions are VERY powerful.
Comparing that to engi, their level 1 versions are just under their level 2 versions, which are good substitutes for their level 3 versions. You cannot say the same of tactical abilities. Hence where cruisers get screwed, since you only need a Lt engi to have almost equal tank to a Cmdr engi, whereas it's the exact opposite for tactical, where even a LtCmdr Tac still doesn't come close to a Cmdr tac with damage output.
It's relatively common knowledge that an escort with EPtS1 and Aux2SIF1 in their engi slots and a HE1 and TSS2 can tank just as well as most cruisers, if not better (they have the bonus defense from high move speed). And then if you ask the armor question, I answer with diminishing returns and the Fleet Patrol Escort, the Fleet Qin Heavy Raptor Refit, and the Fleet Mogai Warbird Refit. Those are three escorts (ok, the mogai is a destroyer but still) that have equal engi consoles to most cruisers.
Hence why I stated above, cruisers are overshadowed by escorts hard. They have only slightly more hull, and slightly more tank, but greatly reduced damage, and escorts have everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Cruisers may be the beginner ship, but at end-game they are overshadowed quite heavily by a properly built escort. If you took an escort, and put in the time, ECs, dil, and effort you put into a cruiser (same for both), in the end, the escort would come out on top. It would have much much MUCH higher damage, and still retain a good portion of the tank.
The problem stems from the lower tier engi and sci abilities (more specifically the heals) being insanely powerful, while the lower tier tac abilities are quite lackluster. Compare EPtS1 to EPtS3.
EPtS1 (no skills, and this is from memory so it might be slightly off):
+20 power to SS
+~20% resilience to shields
+1200 heal applied to each facing
EPtS3
+30 power to SS
+~30% resilience to shields
+~2500 or 3k heal applied to each facing
The EPtS1 is almost as powerful as the level 3 version of that skill. It's only slightly weaker, and it's an ensign level ability. Now let's look at tactical.
APO1 (again, no skills etc)
+10% all damage
+100% move speed and turn rate
+~15% defense bonus
Hold/snare immunity
APO3
+20% (might be higher) all damage
+120% move speed and turn rate
+~20% defense bonus (probably higher)
Hold/snare immunity
Comparing those two tactical skills, which are only separated by one rank, it's HUGE. Most of the APs are like that. Their level 1 versions are weak. Their level 2 versions are pretty powerful, and their level 3 versions are VERY powerful.
Comparing that to engi, their level 1 versions are just under their level 2 versions, which are good substitutes for their level 3 versions. You cannot say the same of tactical abilities. Hence where cruisers get screwed, since you only need a Lt engi to have almost equal tank to a Cmdr engi, whereas it's the exact opposite for tactical, where even a LtCmdr Tac still doesn't come close to a Cmdr tac with damage output.
It's relatively common knowledge that an escort with EPtS1 and Aux2SIF1 in their engi slots and a HE1 and TSS2 can tank just as well as most cruisers, if not better (they have the bonus defense from high move speed). And then if you ask the armor question, I answer with diminishing returns and the Fleet Patrol Escort, the Fleet Qin Heavy Raptor Refit, and the Fleet Mogai Warbird Refit. Those are three escorts (ok, the mogai is a destroyer but still) that have equal engi consoles to most cruisers.
Hence why I stated above, cruisers are overshadowed by escorts hard. They have only slightly more hull, and slightly more tank, but greatly reduced damage, and escorts have everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink.
Quite correct, esp. when you consider the Escorts with a heavy dose of ENG BOFF & Console Slots. Remember when the Fed HEC came out? There was a s**storm when it was released since it had a LtCdr ENG slot as well as 3 ENG consoles, retaining Escort handling, as well as the equivalent Prometheus TAC BOFF & Console values, which is significant to begin with. Oh, and it has a hangar bay.
When you have Escorts that can take care of themselves for survivability, what is the purpose of the other ship types? Damage is absolute king in this game. Go into the STFs, and nobody gives 2 sh*ts about Cruisers and SCI Vessels. Matter of fact, the presence of those ships will SLOW the game down and possibly put to danger the opportunity of getting the optionals. In PVP? Damage. Damage. Damage. Or more specifically, Spike Damage is the true killer in PVP. Because Sustained Damage can be handled easily.
Again, I do miss the days of STO's early balance. Cruisers had staying power and their sustained firepower made a difference. Escorts freely zoomed around and can hit hard, but were fragile. Science Vessels too fought in their own ways that focused on SCI abilities and not necessarily high end energy weapons and torpedo fire. Each ship type was enjoyable in PVP. But that balance was thrown out the window long ago.
...Again, I do miss the days of STO's early balance. Cruisers had staying power and their sustained firepower made a difference. Escorts freely zoomed around and can hit hard, but were fragile. Science Vessels too fought in their own ways that focused on SCI abilities and not necessarily high end energy weapons and torpedo fire. Each ship type was enjoyable in PVP. But that balance was thrown out the window long ago.
This happened precisely because Sci abilities did what they said they do in a realistic fashion (it's a frickin gavitational anomoly ffs, of COURSE it's gonna pull you in...), because Cruisers were, you know, Cruisers (even the Ent-A was capable of taking a real pounding) and because High DPS came at a price. For some inexplicable reason, it seems to be players who go for the DPS class in most games that seem to think they are the only ones who shouldn't have to trade anything off to have it. There are games where everyone wants to be a healer or tank. This is a game isn't one of them.
Also, because of the massive difference between story and ESTF 'difficulty' levels, many players I encounter are blissfully unaware of the help they receive from their team mates in terms of buffs, debuffs and heals. This then leads to QQ when they die too quick or don't seem to be doing enough damage. I'll give an example: A player receives a tac ground team buff and thinks that they themselves are responsible for the damage they are doing. Later, in another mission, they don't do as much damage and QQ for a buff to themselves or a nerf to content.
Same applies to many Escort captains. They've had a good healer on their team a few times, and maybe a decent Sci following their targets. They may be decent in terms of DPS already, but now they think they are more uber than they really are. When it becomes apparent that they aren't, QQ. Nerf that/buff me. It's irritating.
Now, I'm not saying that the escort captain who is a DPS monster and a good tank to boot doesn't exist, but for the most part, you don't see it.
"Go Escort or go home."? 1. I don't want to because for me it's simply not an interesting way to play the game. 2. If I wanted to play a fighter pilot game, I'd find one. The way some of the ships can move around in this game is frankly ridiculous at times (Oddy on deuterium, APO and evasives.....)
*Disclaimer/TLDR* - If it appears that I'm talking directly about you, I'm probably not. There is a type of gamer who thinks they should be able to be uber at everything and to hell with balance.
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
I just don't understand one thing, this is from a philosophical level mind you. This game has very little in common with standard MMO or RPG design and yet both the devs and players continue to stay stuck in the model.
This game plays much more like an action RPG in the sense that you join a map, blow up TRIBBLE with a bunch o people you may or may not know, or do so solo. Why not take the ARPG class design style as an inspiration instead of the old trinity model that doesn't work very well here.
But hey, no worries. With the above mentioned 7.2k, you already dealing 3-4k more than the average Star Cruiser or Odyssey captain, who doesn't know what he's doing. In fact you are already above at least half if not two thirds of the average escort captains. You are more than carrying your weight, which gives you the freedom to do whatever pleases you.
I finally decided to respec my toon. Here's my current config if you don't mind taking a look and rendering your opinion:
Note: I've noticed that, since the respec, my shields seem weaker during combat. However, I do seem to be getting more critical hits, and I'm averaging 7-8K DPS. But still not achieving that magic 10K number.
Did I TRIBBLE-up the respec? If so, no biggie - I've got 656 Borg Neurals in my inventory which translates into 8K free Dil per day, so...one week and I can respec again, if necessary. Though I'd really like to know where I screwed up if I did. I tried to follow the advice of this guy (see below) while figuring out the jigsaw puzzle that is the process of achieving 366,000!
Note: I've noticed that, since the respec, my shields seem weaker during combat. However, I do seem to be getting more critical hits, and I'm averaging 7-8K DPS. But still not achieving that magic 10K number.
Did I TRIBBLE-up the respec? If so, no biggie - I've got 656 Borg Neurals in my inventory which translates into 8K free Dil per day, so...one week and I can respec again, if necessary. Though I'd really like to know where I screwed up if I did. I tried to follow the advice of this guy (see below) while figuring out the jigsaw puzzle that is the process of achieving 366,000!
1. You have the Omega Torp, largely a waste of time on a beam boat because you will be forced to turn out of your broadside to use it. If you really want a torp, use the wide angle quantum torpedo from the Assault Cruiser Refit.
2. You have 9 points in three different Admiral Skills. The benefit for spending such a large amount of XP in even on of these skills is very small. You should drop all of them to 3-4 points each and put that XP into Ship Electro Plasma Systems, Shield Emitters, Structural Integrity, Warp Core Potential and Shield Systems.
3. You have way to many points into torpedo skills. Move them elsewhere. See #2. You also have way to many points in Engine Performance. You should only need 4-6, not 9.
4. An extension of #2: Weapon Performance isn't that good. The Plasmonic Leech console, which you should have, invalidates it.
5. You don't need an RCS console at all and you probably don't need 2 Neutroniums. Move your Zero Point console to an Engi console slot and use Emitter Arrays instead, preferably fleet mk XIs.
And, yes I realise that this game is about as canon as the NCC-1701 having a Klingon ships counselor and a Rommie Chief medical officer, but still the escort thing stretches it a bit for me, based purely on the simple physical size of the damn things! (And no am not 'anti escorts', have done enough ESTFs to know they can crash and burn as much as any other ship..)
But given that the Defiant is, what,....120 metres long( and yes am happy to be corrected on any stats i mention), and the Galaxy is somewhere around the 650 metre mark, how does it compute that a ship that is less than 20% of the size has a hull point level equivalent to 75% of the larger ship? About the only thing they seemed to get right is the amount of crew!
Should they not be what most people expect them to be,which is highly agile, very fast moving , heavy weapons platforms, with the hull strength, and shield power of a wet tissue, given their size.
Buff the hell out of their weapon power and engine power, give them an insane turn rate, but nerf their hull and shields......basically if you stop moving....your dead....!?!( And I see a LOT of them just sitting still and unloading on those poor defenceless TAC cubes:rolleyes:)
Is my argument weak........possibly, it is after all based purely on an escorts size( and by extension their realistic hull strength and warp core potential) given that the Galaxies warp core is probably big enough to park a Defiant inside it,.......oh and the fact that I have had a few beers tonight, and well......I was just bored...:cool:
From what I remember a Defiant uses a Galaxy's Warp Core... It is basically literally Over Powered which resulted in MAJOR problems with it early on in its career. Also being designed for war these Escorts have stronger more compact armor rather than the weaker Hull of larger ships. I mean we are talking about encapsulating more space but that does not guarantee more strength in the shell we are making.
However, the Defiant herself was blown up far more than the Enterprise ever was and was crippled by a Tactical Cube whereas the Sovereign whooped that poor thing's butt. So that sort of shows the power level there.
First thing that would make a BIG difference would be something I suggested long ago: Make CREW MATTER and STOP killing them off by % instead of by Numeric amounts. That way ships with HUGE crews would keep their crews much longer than little Escorts.
Also Escorts like the Defiant should have far less versatility than any Cruiser. They should honestly have less BOFF seating because lets face it... They are meant for just one thing and do not have the SPACE for all the fancy emitters and things that big vessels like the Swiss Army Knife that the Galaxy was did.
Another thing that is annoying in this game is that NEVER in the show did it EVER postulate that Beams were any less effective than Cannons. Even escorts used beams (Even the DEFIANT had beams) to great effect. A Galaxy's MASSIVE Saucer Beam Array is one scary weapon and is NOT eclipsed by some Cannons.
Also... the Defiant itself is nothing more than an over glorified battle runabout and could dock inside a Galaxy's main shuttle bay... Just thought I would point that out LOL.
However, I will now contradict your sentiment a bit by pointing out that the Multi-Vector is a full Cruiser sized Escort and should without question put all other Escorts to Shame with its immensely advanced technologies. It wiped the floor with cruisers and Romulan Warbirds alike and that was even after being crippled due to sitting still and being hammered.
Also the Akira/Armitage is a Cruiser designed for combat.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I fail to see your point. Everything looks proper. The Cube from time to time looks perhaps a little small but that is only because the other ships are closer to the camera.
Also... Love how a ship gets blown up in the Cube's explosion. That is so STO LOL.
Cruisers may be the beginner ship, but at end-game they are overshadowed quite heavily by a properly built escort. If you took an escort, and put in the time, ECs, dil, and effort you put into a cruiser (same for both), in the end, the escort would come out on top. It would have much much MUCH higher damage, and still retain a good portion of the tank.
I'm not too sure about that TBH. Both my tacscort and engi cruiser have fleet or rep weapons, special consoles, etc, etc, etc. When I PvP or PvE with them they have distinct feels for the playstyles they allow. Maybe i'm just biased because I DO appreciate the differences in playstyle and would rather they NOT make everything into some sort of destroyer variant. And since I already have a tacscort I don't need my engi cruiser to be a duplicate of it. There's also the fact my aux2batt cruiser doesn't feel gimped at all. It does less damage than my escort no doubt, but it has RSP on CD to make up for it.
I fail to see your point. Everything looks proper. The Cube from time to time looks perhaps a little small but that is only because the other ships are closer to the camera.
Also... Love how a ship gets blown up in the Cube's explosion. That is so STO LOL.
The scaling of the Defiant and the Sovereign, this is my only annoyance with the TNG movies, the inconsistency of the Sovereign's size in every movie. It made the Defiant look tiny in comparison.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I'm not too sure about that TBH. Both my tacscort and engi cruiser have fleet or rep weapons, special consoles, etc, etc, etc. When I PvP or PvE with them they have distinct feels for the playstyles they allow. Maybe i'm just biased because I DO appreciate the differences in playstyle and would rather they NOT make everything into some sort of destroyer variant. And since I already have a tacscort I don't need my engi cruiser to be a duplicate of it. There's also the fact my aux2batt cruiser doesn't feel gimped at all. It does less damage than my escort no doubt, but it has RSP on CD to make up for it.
I don't want want them to be the same. I never did. And I can appreciate the differences. The only problem there is that the differences are becoming smaller and smaller. Especially as survival goes.
A cruiser can survive everything and it's mother with relative ease. But it's getting to the point where escorts can too. And that would be fine except that escorts can deal three to four times the damage of a cruiser, and have tank that is only 20% weaker at most, whereas a cruiser only deals 25% of the damage for 125% of the tank.
I know there SHOULD be differences in playstyle, but courtesy of how the power creep and other changes are going, the changes are slowly disappearing and leaving cruisers behind completely. Back in season 5, you couldn't tank a tac cube or a gateway easily in an escort. You could do it, but it took a lot of effort, attention, and you usually sacrificed a lot of your damage to do it (IE you had to move around alot etc), whereas with a cruiser, you could tank those things, but your damage already was lower but unchanged from when you weren't tanking. However NOW, you can take an escort, tank the TRIBBLE out of a gate/tac cube, and you won't lose nearly as much damage as you did back in season 5. And cruisers haven't gained a ton of damage either to compensate.
Basically what I'm saying is that the imbalance that already existed has simply been amplified to an even greater extent.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I don't want want them to be the same. I never did. And I can appreciate the differences. The only problem there is that the differences are becoming smaller and smaller. Especially as survival goes.
A cruiser can survive everything and it's mother with relative ease. But it's getting to the point where escorts can too. And that would be fine except that escorts can deal three to four times the damage of a cruiser, and have tank that is only 20% weaker at most, whereas a cruiser only deals 25% of the damage for 125% of the tank.
I know there SHOULD be differences in playstyle, but courtesy of how the power creep and other changes are going, the changes are slowly disappearing and leaving cruisers behind completely. Back in season 5, you couldn't tank a tac cube or a gateway easily in an escort. You could do it, but it took a lot of effort, attention, and you usually sacrificed a lot of your damage to do it (IE you had to move around alot etc), whereas with a cruiser, you could tank those things, but your damage already was lower but unchanged from when you weren't tanking. However NOW, you can take an escort, tank the TRIBBLE out of a gate/tac cube, and you won't lose nearly as much damage as you did back in season 5. And cruisers haven't gained a ton of damage either to compensate.
Basically what I'm saying is that the imbalance that already existed has simply been amplified to an even greater extent.
The fact that cruisers are some of the highest dps ships in the game pretty much invalidates your entire argument. In fact, it's easier to get high dps on a cruiser than it is to get high dps on an escort (unless you are using a beamscort.)
The fact that cruisers are some of the highest dps ships in the game pretty much invalidates your entire argument. In fact, it's easier to get high dps on a cruiser than it is to get high dps on an escort (unless you are using a beamscort.)
I'm sorry what?
Can I have some of whatever it is you're smoking. Because you really are in need of... either an explanation or a detox program.
Let me ask you this:
How do you out-dps a Cmdr Tactical + LtCmdr Tactical + 5 Tactical Consoles + 15 Bonus Weapons Power? That's the standard that you need to uphold your supposed highest DPS cruiser to.
The most you'll get on a cruiser is a LtCmdr Tactical + Ensign Tactical + 4 Tactical Consoles + 10 Bonus Weapons Power.
I'm sorry to say there is no competition there. Not even close. So either post up this uber build, or stop trolling.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
The fact that cruisers are some of the highest dps ships in the game pretty much invalidates your entire argument. In fact, it's easier to get high dps on a cruiser than it is to get high dps on an escort (unless you are using a beamscort.)
I have to agree. Since switching from an escort to a cruiser, I can deal more sustained damage because of tanking. For example, on KA Elite, I can simply meander around the gate area blasting away at near point blank range with my beams and torps while absorbing almost anything the gate can dish out by rotating my hull and distributing the shield hits (plus copious RSP use).
By contrast, with my escorts I'm constantly adjusting the range (and thus diminishing the effectiveness of my DHCs) as I try to avoid attracting aggro from the gate since I need to keep my nose pointed directly at it in order to do maximum damage. So it becomes a game of slowly inching forward and backing away while hammering on the up-arrow key and waiting for my shield heals skills to cool down.
There's a reason why I normally run with 2x EPtS on an escort - I'm constantly "taking it on the chin" as opposed to the cruiser style of using the "body" to deflect more of the blows, etc. Plus, it's just a lot more fun to "turn and burn" than to "squat and pew pew" for 15 minutes.
Can I have some of whatever it is you're smoking. Because you really are in need of... either an explanation or a detox program.
Let me ask you this:
How do you out-dps a Cmdr Tactical + LtCmdr Tactical + 5 Tactical Consoles + 15 Bonus Weapons Power? That's the standard that you need to uphold your supposed highest DPS cruiser to.
The most you'll get on a cruiser is a LtCmdr Tactical + Ensign Tactical + 4 Tactical Consoles + 10 Bonus Weapons Power.
I'm sorry to say there is no competition there. Not even close. So either post up this uber build, or stop trolling.
Cruisers can potentially out dps escorts by hitting everything in range no matter where the target happens to be. Weapon arc is extremely important, and it is much easier to get an enemy into the arc of 8 beams than it is to get them into the arc of 4 dhcs. You also need to consider range. All energy weapons have a damage fall off as range increases. The damage fall off for cannons is more severe than the damage fall of for beams.
Most of the stuff you list above is over rated as well. That 5th tac console adds roughly 5% to your dps. Commander Tactical adds even less than that. 5 bonus weapon power? Literally worthless. The dps increase you get from that 5 extra weapon power is likely 1% or less. In addition, cruisers have easy access to the engineering abilities that let them pump huge dps, while most escorts don't. Have you seen a well built Aux2Batt cruiser? Mine isn't even complete and I can do 11k with little effort. You won't see many escorts doing those numbers with such ease and durability.
How do you out-dps a Cmdr Tactical + LtCmdr Tactical + 5 Tactical Consoles + 15 Bonus Weapons Power? That's the standard that you need to uphold your supposed highest DPS cruiser to.
On an Aux2Bat Cruiser, you effictively have two Lt.Com Tac (and two ensigns, depending on the ship), because of the cooldown reduction of Aux2Bat. This way, you're only really missing one Cmdr. Tac ability, which is not too critical on a beam boat. You can run APB2 on global cooldown with a 2/3 uptime.
You can also run EPtW3 all the time, giving you a constant boost of 16% bonus dmg with energy weapons, especially handy on a beam boat. Even if you run EPtW1 on an escort, the difference to EPtW3 easiliy compensates the lack of the fifth console on a cruiser.The fifth tac console actually only gives you a fraction of what it states in the tooltip. If it says 30%, it's rather 6%. Let's say you're already dishing out respectable 10k dps, you'll just end up with 10.6k. That's why the prices on the exchange for purple MK XII tac consoles are so absurd, because you can take the bonus 1.9% and divide it by four or five.
And just for you interest, I'm not smoking anything, but I sure thought I was, when I measured my DPS in my Fleet Assault Cruiser. For what's it's worth, I gave Polaron a try yesterday and was also between 10 and 12k. I out-dps the average escort captain by 100%, I am on par with the best of them and I assure you, it's not because of meaningless BFAW spamming.
And that would be fine except that escorts can deal three to four times the damage of a cruiser, and have tank that is only 20% weaker at most, whereas a cruiser only deals 25% of the damage for 125% of the tank.
I think if anything the gap is less than its been before. The rep gear leans toward improving cruiser and sci boats. While I prefer to not run damage meters outside of WoW, I really don't feel like my cruiser is doing one quarter the damage of my escort, maybe 60% to 70% DPS. That's DPS though, spike is very different. In PvP I feel my pressure damage is worthwhile, not against other high end well built cruisers, but I take down escorts all the time.
Alrighty then, many wide and varied responses thus far, but will put this question out there, for the escorts flyers only.......
Is flying your uber DPS dealing escort a SATISFYING experience, esp when you know that you are going to lay waste to anything that even twitches the wrong way before you even start a mission...???( and yes there are cruisers out there that can do the same, we know, but they are few and far between, by comparison)
Cruisers can potentially out dps escorts by hitting everything in range no matter where the target happens to be. Weapon arc is extremely important, and it is much easier to get an enemy into the arc of 8 beams than it is to get them into the arc of 4 dhcs. You also need to consider range. All energy weapons have a damage fall off as range increases. The damage fall off for cannons is more severe than the damage fall of for beams.
Most of the stuff you list above is over rated as well. That 5th tac console adds roughly 5% to your dps. Commander Tactical adds even less than that. 5 bonus weapon power? Literally worthless. The dps increase you get from that 5 extra weapon power is likely 1% or less. In addition, cruisers have easy access to the engineering abilities that let them pump huge dps, while most escorts don't. Have you seen a well built Aux2Batt cruiser? Mine isn't even complete and I can do 11k with little effort. You won't see many escorts doing those numbers with such ease and durability.
You put out good points here, and I respect where you are coming from. And you have a point with weapon arcs that is very much valid. However the thing with an escort is that it has the maneuverability to get things into an arc that small. Also as for damage fall-off? A legitimate point as well. However compensated for by an escort being able to come in and blast something from close range and not really have to worry about retaliation. Something a lot of escorts can do relatively easily is get directly in front or behind of a lot of cruisers, therefore eliminating half of their weapons.
In answer to your second paragraph, they aren't overrated. The 5th tac console actually adds roughly 10% additional damage, and the commander tactical adds quite a lot. APB3, APO3 are perfect examples of that. APO3 alone is amazing when it comes to raw damage, and APB3 increases the DPS of your whole team by a significant amount. The 5 additional weapons power helps to combat drain (since in all honesty most decent escorts won't drop below 120 weapons power even with all weapons firing). And escorts can survive quite well with just an EPtS1, Aux2SIF1, HE1, and TSS2 (which most escorts can get with ease). You cycle EPtS1, and your shields probably won't drop a whole lot, especially when used in tandem with the occasional TSS2.
And as for your last statement, the average I see on most of the escorts I use/fly with is actually around 13k DPS, and they are quite durable. So my initial comment about 25% of the damage output was an exaggeration. But as for the 13k DPS? They can put that out with ease. And something else that is oft overlooked is that escorts get a bonus to their defense value, and they already will have high defense if they keep on moving. And believe me, keeping on moving and keeping your target in your weapons sights is still pretty easy.
On an Aux2Bat Cruiser, you effictively have two Lt.Com Tac (and two ensigns, depending on the ship), because of the cooldown reduction of Aux2Bat. This way, you're only really missing one Cmdr. Tac ability, which is not too critical on a beam boat. You can run APB2 on global cooldown with a 2/3 uptime.
You can also run EPtW3 all the time, giving you a constant boost of 16% bonus dmg with energy weapons, especially handy on a beam boat. Even if you run EPtW1 on an escort, the difference to EPtW3 easiliy compensates the lack of the fifth console on a cruiser.The fifth tac console actually only gives you a fraction of what it states in the tooltip. If it says 30%, it's rather 6%. Let's say you're already dishing out respectable 10k dps, you'll just end up with 10.6k. That's why the prices on the exchange for purple MK XII tac consoles are so absurd, because you can take the bonus 1.9% and divide it by four or five.
And just for you interest, I'm not smoking anything, but I sure thought I was, when I measured my DPS in my Fleet Assault Cruiser. For what's it's worth, I gave Polaron a try yesterday and was also between 10 and 12k. I out-dps the average escort captain by 100%, I am on par with the best of them and I assure you, it's not because of meaningless BFAW spamming.
A lot of comments to this post were made above to the other posters comment. However my other comment about having the Cmdr Tactical stands. It's not meaningless, and it's very powerful.
I think if anything the gap is less than its been before. The rep gear leans toward improving cruiser and sci boats. While I prefer to not run damage meters outside of WoW, I really don't feel like my cruiser is doing one quarter the damage of my escort, maybe 60% to 70% DPS. That's DPS though, spike is very different. In PvP I feel my pressure damage is worthwhile, not against other high end well built cruisers, but I take down escorts all the time.
Nothing can beat an escort in spike damage (other than BoPs and warbirds). I've seen escorts spike up to 60k DPS (had one guy clock in at 75k once, was quite scary), but the average sustain on a competent escort is still usually around 14k (if they cycle their abilities properly, hence the competent part).
But all the above responses basically support my original post. You need pretty in-depth knowledge of the game to make a cruiser hit hard. And you need to have the equipment and DOffs to make it work. However with an escort, you just need mk X white TRIBBLE and simple game mechanics knowledge. And if you invest in an escort the exact amount of time and EC that you invest in a cruiser, the escort should come out on top damage wise.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Comments
It's always between 10-12.5k. Pet's are accounted for in the player's own DPS.
Results (Sabine) - Layout
Doffs:
2x Purple Damage Control Engineer
2x Purple Shield Distribution
1x Purple Space Warfare (10% DMG against Borg)
Torpedo Variation:
Adapted MACO Engine + Deflector
Replace one DHC with Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo
Replace Shield Distribution Doffs with Projectile Weapon Doffs
So at 8K I'm not *that* far off with my Fleet Patrol. Seems like what I need are some better Doffs. Can you tell me how your Tac Skill points were applied as you leveled up? Looking for guidance if/when I re-spec my toon.
Also, is the Rommie torp much better than the Omega Torp (Plasma Energy Bolt)?
RCK
I think you're missing the other side of it. Cruisers take more resources/time to get set up, but are also the beginner ship. It can carry anyone to lvl 50. I can only imagine this was done to appeal to the fans because the Enterprise has always been a cruiser (of course, I'm dismissive of the Enterprise in general, so I don't get the fan reaction.... I also don't get what the big deal with the Ent-F is; is it a cautionary tale that if you loose your Defiant by staying still like a noob you'll get demoted to a cruiser?
Overall, considering dps vs durability I think its even between escorts and cruisers. the thing to keep in mind is that they play very, very differently. Escorts destroy things one baddie at a time, while cruisers like to wade in doing a disco ball impersonation and laugh at the puny Borg/Elachi/Tholians/Baddie of the week.
RCK
On one of my highest runs, the only Doff contributing to dmg was the Borg space warface specialist with +10% dmg againgst Borg. The others are for defense and keeping two emergency powers up all the time. Please note, that due to the changes to emergency powers, EPtW now gives a boost to energy weapon dmg over its full duration. Even EPtW1 is now way more effective than a fifth purple tac console.
Regarding torpedoes, it doesn't really matter. Just don't equip projectile weapon doffs with the Omega launcher. Without torpedoes, I do bit more dmg than with torpedoes.
These are my skill points. Driver Coil is for convenience only.
You see? Now imagine that with the addition of APB2 and BFAW2 and on top of that two copies of Aux2Bat with technician doffs, giving you a 2/3 uptime of APB2 and thus 2/3 of the time +40% dmg against hull and suddenly you are in the range we talked about. Like I said, it's quite boring, but also very funny when escort captains are asking you about your secret magic beam weapons
On Top of that and finally back to topic, you will be the cruiser that everyone imagines it to be. A beam wielding sturdy death machine.
The problem is I only have a single LC Tac slot. This means if I swap out for APB2 I lose my current HYT3. I could move to HYT1, but then I lose my BFAW1. And if I swap out for BFAW2, I lose my BO2.
Simply not enough ability slots to work with on the FAHC bridge layout.
UPDATE: Swapped in AB2 along with BFAW1 and HYT2 and ended up dropping DPS a bit. I guess I got more out of BO2, especially when combined with DEM2.
RCK
But hey, no worries. With the above mentioned 7.2k, you already dealing 3-4k more than the average Star Cruiser or Odyssey captain, who doesn't know what he's doing. In fact you are already above at least half if not two thirds of the average escort captains. You are more than carrying your weight, which gives you the freedom to do whatever pleases you.
Well, I just had my best run: 8.4K in CSE. Looks like the APB2 is working out - though I'm keeping the HYT2 since I need it to trigger the Plasma Bolt. I may swap around for HYT1 and BFAW2, though, since the beam weapons are the "heavy lifters" in the mix and the Plasma Bolt just needs a trigger.
Regardless, I've already surpassed my best score in an escort, so...thanks!
Still going to grab a re-spec token tomorrow. I'm going to mimic your Skills layout and see what kind of impact it has on my weapons performance. Since I have *zero* points in specialization I'm expecting a dramatic change - though I may switch to AP vs. POL before I apply the points (better against the Borg).
RCK
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Cruisers may be the beginner ship, but at end-game they are overshadowed quite heavily by a properly built escort. If you took an escort, and put in the time, ECs, dil, and effort you put into a cruiser (same for both), in the end, the escort would come out on top. It would have much much MUCH higher damage, and still retain a good portion of the tank.
The problem stems from the lower tier engi and sci abilities (more specifically the heals) being insanely powerful, while the lower tier tac abilities are quite lackluster. Compare EPtS1 to EPtS3.
EPtS1 (no skills, and this is from memory so it might be slightly off):
+20 power to SS
+~20% resilience to shields
+1200 heal applied to each facing
EPtS3
+30 power to SS
+~30% resilience to shields
+~2500 or 3k heal applied to each facing
The EPtS1 is almost as powerful as the level 3 version of that skill. It's only slightly weaker, and it's an ensign level ability. Now let's look at tactical.
APO1 (again, no skills etc)
+10% all damage
+100% move speed and turn rate
+~15% defense bonus
Hold/snare immunity
APO3
+20% (might be higher) all damage
+120% move speed and turn rate
+~20% defense bonus (probably higher)
Hold/snare immunity
Comparing those two tactical skills, which are only separated by one rank, it's HUGE. Most of the APs are like that. Their level 1 versions are weak. Their level 2 versions are pretty powerful, and their level 3 versions are VERY powerful.
Comparing that to engi, their level 1 versions are just under their level 2 versions, which are good substitutes for their level 3 versions. You cannot say the same of tactical abilities. Hence where cruisers get screwed, since you only need a Lt engi to have almost equal tank to a Cmdr engi, whereas it's the exact opposite for tactical, where even a LtCmdr Tac still doesn't come close to a Cmdr tac with damage output.
It's relatively common knowledge that an escort with EPtS1 and Aux2SIF1 in their engi slots and a HE1 and TSS2 can tank just as well as most cruisers, if not better (they have the bonus defense from high move speed). And then if you ask the armor question, I answer with diminishing returns and the Fleet Patrol Escort, the Fleet Qin Heavy Raptor Refit, and the Fleet Mogai Warbird Refit. Those are three escorts (ok, the mogai is a destroyer but still) that have equal engi consoles to most cruisers.
Hence why I stated above, cruisers are overshadowed by escorts hard. They have only slightly more hull, and slightly more tank, but greatly reduced damage, and escorts have everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink.
Quite correct, esp. when you consider the Escorts with a heavy dose of ENG BOFF & Console Slots. Remember when the Fed HEC came out? There was a s**storm when it was released since it had a LtCdr ENG slot as well as 3 ENG consoles, retaining Escort handling, as well as the equivalent Prometheus TAC BOFF & Console values, which is significant to begin with. Oh, and it has a hangar bay.
When you have Escorts that can take care of themselves for survivability, what is the purpose of the other ship types? Damage is absolute king in this game. Go into the STFs, and nobody gives 2 sh*ts about Cruisers and SCI Vessels. Matter of fact, the presence of those ships will SLOW the game down and possibly put to danger the opportunity of getting the optionals. In PVP? Damage. Damage. Damage. Or more specifically, Spike Damage is the true killer in PVP. Because Sustained Damage can be handled easily.
Again, I do miss the days of STO's early balance. Cruisers had staying power and their sustained firepower made a difference. Escorts freely zoomed around and can hit hard, but were fragile. Science Vessels too fought in their own ways that focused on SCI abilities and not necessarily high end energy weapons and torpedo fire. Each ship type was enjoyable in PVP. But that balance was thrown out the window long ago.
This happened precisely because Sci abilities did what they said they do in a realistic fashion (it's a frickin gavitational anomoly ffs, of COURSE it's gonna pull you in...), because Cruisers were, you know, Cruisers (even the Ent-A was capable of taking a real pounding) and because High DPS came at a price. For some inexplicable reason, it seems to be players who go for the DPS class in most games that seem to think they are the only ones who shouldn't have to trade anything off to have it. There are games where everyone wants to be a healer or tank. This is a game isn't one of them.
Also, because of the massive difference between story and ESTF 'difficulty' levels, many players I encounter are blissfully unaware of the help they receive from their team mates in terms of buffs, debuffs and heals. This then leads to QQ when they die too quick or don't seem to be doing enough damage. I'll give an example: A player receives a tac ground team buff and thinks that they themselves are responsible for the damage they are doing. Later, in another mission, they don't do as much damage and QQ for a buff to themselves or a nerf to content.
Same applies to many Escort captains. They've had a good healer on their team a few times, and maybe a decent Sci following their targets. They may be decent in terms of DPS already, but now they think they are more uber than they really are. When it becomes apparent that they aren't, QQ. Nerf that/buff me. It's irritating.
Now, I'm not saying that the escort captain who is a DPS monster and a good tank to boot doesn't exist, but for the most part, you don't see it.
"Go Escort or go home."? 1. I don't want to because for me it's simply not an interesting way to play the game. 2. If I wanted to play a fighter pilot game, I'd find one. The way some of the ships can move around in this game is frankly ridiculous at times (Oddy on deuterium, APO and evasives.....)
*Disclaimer/TLDR* - If it appears that I'm talking directly about you, I'm probably not. There is a type of gamer who thinks they should be able to be uber at everything and to hell with balance.
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
This game plays much more like an action RPG in the sense that you join a map, blow up TRIBBLE with a bunch o people you may or may not know, or do so solo. Why not take the ARPG class design style as an inspiration instead of the old trinity model that doesn't work very well here.
I finally decided to respec my toon. Here's my current config if you don't mind taking a look and rendering your opinion:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=rcktac2013revb_0
Note: I've noticed that, since the respec, my shields seem weaker during combat. However, I do seem to be getting more critical hits, and I'm averaging 7-8K DPS. But still not achieving that magic 10K number.
Did I TRIBBLE-up the respec? If so, no biggie - I've got 656 Borg Neurals in my inventory which translates into 8K free Dil per day, so...one week and I can respec again, if necessary. Though I'd really like to know where I screwed up if I did. I tried to follow the advice of this guy (see below) while figuring out the jigsaw puzzle that is the process of achieving 366,000!
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/924226-star-trek-online/61745098
Anyway, comments and advice appreciated!!!
RCK
2. You have 9 points in three different Admiral Skills. The benefit for spending such a large amount of XP in even on of these skills is very small. You should drop all of them to 3-4 points each and put that XP into Ship Electro Plasma Systems, Shield Emitters, Structural Integrity, Warp Core Potential and Shield Systems.
3. You have way to many points into torpedo skills. Move them elsewhere. See #2. You also have way to many points in Engine Performance. You should only need 4-6, not 9.
4. An extension of #2: Weapon Performance isn't that good. The Plasmonic Leech console, which you should have, invalidates it.
5. You don't need an RCS console at all and you probably don't need 2 Neutroniums. Move your Zero Point console to an Engi console slot and use Emitter Arrays instead, preferably fleet mk XIs.
From what I remember a Defiant uses a Galaxy's Warp Core... It is basically literally Over Powered which resulted in MAJOR problems with it early on in its career. Also being designed for war these Escorts have stronger more compact armor rather than the weaker Hull of larger ships. I mean we are talking about encapsulating more space but that does not guarantee more strength in the shell we are making.
However, the Defiant herself was blown up far more than the Enterprise ever was and was crippled by a Tactical Cube whereas the Sovereign whooped that poor thing's butt. So that sort of shows the power level there.
First thing that would make a BIG difference would be something I suggested long ago: Make CREW MATTER and STOP killing them off by % instead of by Numeric amounts. That way ships with HUGE crews would keep their crews much longer than little Escorts.
Also Escorts like the Defiant should have far less versatility than any Cruiser. They should honestly have less BOFF seating because lets face it... They are meant for just one thing and do not have the SPACE for all the fancy emitters and things that big vessels like the Swiss Army Knife that the Galaxy was did.
Another thing that is annoying in this game is that NEVER in the show did it EVER postulate that Beams were any less effective than Cannons. Even escorts used beams (Even the DEFIANT had beams) to great effect. A Galaxy's MASSIVE Saucer Beam Array is one scary weapon and is NOT eclipsed by some Cannons.
Also... the Defiant itself is nothing more than an over glorified battle runabout and could dock inside a Galaxy's main shuttle bay... Just thought I would point that out LOL.
However, I will now contradict your sentiment a bit by pointing out that the Multi-Vector is a full Cruiser sized Escort and should without question put all other Escorts to Shame with its immensely advanced technologies. It wiped the floor with cruisers and Romulan Warbirds alike and that was even after being crippled due to sitting still and being hammered.
Also the Akira/Armitage is a Cruiser designed for combat.
this is one of the worst scaling issues in trek history
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I fail to see your point. Everything looks proper. The Cube from time to time looks perhaps a little small but that is only because the other ships are closer to the camera.
Also... Love how a ship gets blown up in the Cube's explosion. That is so STO LOL.
I'm not too sure about that TBH. Both my tacscort and engi cruiser have fleet or rep weapons, special consoles, etc, etc, etc. When I PvP or PvE with them they have distinct feels for the playstyles they allow. Maybe i'm just biased because I DO appreciate the differences in playstyle and would rather they NOT make everything into some sort of destroyer variant. And since I already have a tacscort I don't need my engi cruiser to be a duplicate of it. There's also the fact my aux2batt cruiser doesn't feel gimped at all. It does less damage than my escort no doubt, but it has RSP on CD to make up for it.
The scaling of the Defiant and the Sovereign, this is my only annoyance with the TNG movies, the inconsistency of the Sovereign's size in every movie. It made the Defiant look tiny in comparison.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I don't want want them to be the same. I never did. And I can appreciate the differences. The only problem there is that the differences are becoming smaller and smaller. Especially as survival goes.
A cruiser can survive everything and it's mother with relative ease. But it's getting to the point where escorts can too. And that would be fine except that escorts can deal three to four times the damage of a cruiser, and have tank that is only 20% weaker at most, whereas a cruiser only deals 25% of the damage for 125% of the tank.
I know there SHOULD be differences in playstyle, but courtesy of how the power creep and other changes are going, the changes are slowly disappearing and leaving cruisers behind completely. Back in season 5, you couldn't tank a tac cube or a gateway easily in an escort. You could do it, but it took a lot of effort, attention, and you usually sacrificed a lot of your damage to do it (IE you had to move around alot etc), whereas with a cruiser, you could tank those things, but your damage already was lower but unchanged from when you weren't tanking. However NOW, you can take an escort, tank the TRIBBLE out of a gate/tac cube, and you won't lose nearly as much damage as you did back in season 5. And cruisers haven't gained a ton of damage either to compensate.
Basically what I'm saying is that the imbalance that already existed has simply been amplified to an even greater extent.
The fact that cruisers are some of the highest dps ships in the game pretty much invalidates your entire argument. In fact, it's easier to get high dps on a cruiser than it is to get high dps on an escort (unless you are using a beamscort.)
I'm sorry what?
Can I have some of whatever it is you're smoking. Because you really are in need of... either an explanation or a detox program.
Let me ask you this:
How do you out-dps a Cmdr Tactical + LtCmdr Tactical + 5 Tactical Consoles + 15 Bonus Weapons Power? That's the standard that you need to uphold your supposed highest DPS cruiser to.
The most you'll get on a cruiser is a LtCmdr Tactical + Ensign Tactical + 4 Tactical Consoles + 10 Bonus Weapons Power.
I'm sorry to say there is no competition there. Not even close. So either post up this uber build, or stop trolling.
I have to agree. Since switching from an escort to a cruiser, I can deal more sustained damage because of tanking. For example, on KA Elite, I can simply meander around the gate area blasting away at near point blank range with my beams and torps while absorbing almost anything the gate can dish out by rotating my hull and distributing the shield hits (plus copious RSP use).
By contrast, with my escorts I'm constantly adjusting the range (and thus diminishing the effectiveness of my DHCs) as I try to avoid attracting aggro from the gate since I need to keep my nose pointed directly at it in order to do maximum damage. So it becomes a game of slowly inching forward and backing away while hammering on the up-arrow key and waiting for my shield heals skills to cool down.
There's a reason why I normally run with 2x EPtS on an escort - I'm constantly "taking it on the chin" as opposed to the cruiser style of using the "body" to deflect more of the blows, etc. Plus, it's just a lot more fun to "turn and burn" than to "squat and pew pew" for 15 minutes.
RCK
Cruisers can potentially out dps escorts by hitting everything in range no matter where the target happens to be. Weapon arc is extremely important, and it is much easier to get an enemy into the arc of 8 beams than it is to get them into the arc of 4 dhcs. You also need to consider range. All energy weapons have a damage fall off as range increases. The damage fall off for cannons is more severe than the damage fall of for beams.
Most of the stuff you list above is over rated as well. That 5th tac console adds roughly 5% to your dps. Commander Tactical adds even less than that. 5 bonus weapon power? Literally worthless. The dps increase you get from that 5 extra weapon power is likely 1% or less. In addition, cruisers have easy access to the engineering abilities that let them pump huge dps, while most escorts don't. Have you seen a well built Aux2Batt cruiser? Mine isn't even complete and I can do 11k with little effort. You won't see many escorts doing those numbers with such ease and durability.
On an Aux2Bat Cruiser, you effictively have two Lt.Com Tac (and two ensigns, depending on the ship), because of the cooldown reduction of Aux2Bat. This way, you're only really missing one Cmdr. Tac ability, which is not too critical on a beam boat. You can run APB2 on global cooldown with a 2/3 uptime.
You can also run EPtW3 all the time, giving you a constant boost of 16% bonus dmg with energy weapons, especially handy on a beam boat. Even if you run EPtW1 on an escort, the difference to EPtW3 easiliy compensates the lack of the fifth console on a cruiser.The fifth tac console actually only gives you a fraction of what it states in the tooltip. If it says 30%, it's rather 6%. Let's say you're already dishing out respectable 10k dps, you'll just end up with 10.6k. That's why the prices on the exchange for purple MK XII tac consoles are so absurd, because you can take the bonus 1.9% and divide it by four or five.
And just for you interest, I'm not smoking anything, but I sure thought I was, when I measured my DPS in my Fleet Assault Cruiser. For what's it's worth, I gave Polaron a try yesterday and was also between 10 and 12k. I out-dps the average escort captain by 100%, I am on par with the best of them and I assure you, it's not because of meaningless BFAW spamming.
This is my Polaron build.
I think if anything the gap is less than its been before. The rep gear leans toward improving cruiser and sci boats. While I prefer to not run damage meters outside of WoW, I really don't feel like my cruiser is doing one quarter the damage of my escort, maybe 60% to 70% DPS. That's DPS though, spike is very different. In PvP I feel my pressure damage is worthwhile, not against other high end well built cruisers, but I take down escorts all the time.
Is flying your uber DPS dealing escort a SATISFYING experience, esp when you know that you are going to lay waste to anything that even twitches the wrong way before you even start a mission...???( and yes there are cruisers out there that can do the same, we know, but they are few and far between, by comparison)
You put out good points here, and I respect where you are coming from. And you have a point with weapon arcs that is very much valid. However the thing with an escort is that it has the maneuverability to get things into an arc that small. Also as for damage fall-off? A legitimate point as well. However compensated for by an escort being able to come in and blast something from close range and not really have to worry about retaliation. Something a lot of escorts can do relatively easily is get directly in front or behind of a lot of cruisers, therefore eliminating half of their weapons.
In answer to your second paragraph, they aren't overrated. The 5th tac console actually adds roughly 10% additional damage, and the commander tactical adds quite a lot. APB3, APO3 are perfect examples of that. APO3 alone is amazing when it comes to raw damage, and APB3 increases the DPS of your whole team by a significant amount. The 5 additional weapons power helps to combat drain (since in all honesty most decent escorts won't drop below 120 weapons power even with all weapons firing). And escorts can survive quite well with just an EPtS1, Aux2SIF1, HE1, and TSS2 (which most escorts can get with ease). You cycle EPtS1, and your shields probably won't drop a whole lot, especially when used in tandem with the occasional TSS2.
And as for your last statement, the average I see on most of the escorts I use/fly with is actually around 13k DPS, and they are quite durable. So my initial comment about 25% of the damage output was an exaggeration. But as for the 13k DPS? They can put that out with ease. And something else that is oft overlooked is that escorts get a bonus to their defense value, and they already will have high defense if they keep on moving. And believe me, keeping on moving and keeping your target in your weapons sights is still pretty easy.
A lot of comments to this post were made above to the other posters comment. However my other comment about having the Cmdr Tactical stands. It's not meaningless, and it's very powerful.
Nothing can beat an escort in spike damage (other than BoPs and warbirds). I've seen escorts spike up to 60k DPS (had one guy clock in at 75k once, was quite scary), but the average sustain on a competent escort is still usually around 14k (if they cycle their abilities properly, hence the competent part).
But all the above responses basically support my original post. You need pretty in-depth knowledge of the game to make a cruiser hit hard. And you need to have the equipment and DOffs to make it work. However with an escort, you just need mk X white TRIBBLE and simple game mechanics knowledge. And if you invest in an escort the exact amount of time and EC that you invest in a cruiser, the escort should come out on top damage wise.