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OK, about this escort thing....
coldbeer72
Member Posts: 168 Arc User
And, yes I realise that this game is about as canon as the NCC-1701 having a Klingon ships counselor and a Rommie Chief medical officer, but still the escort thing stretches it a bit for me, based purely on the simple physical size of the damn things! (And no am not 'anti escorts', have done enough ESTFs to know they can crash and burn as much as any other ship..)
But given that the Defiant is, what,....120 metres long( and yes am happy to be corrected on any stats i mention), and the Galaxy is somewhere around the 650 metre mark, how does it compute that a ship that is less than 20% of the size has a hull point level equivalent to 75% of the larger ship? About the only thing they seemed to get right is the amount of crew!
Should they not be what most people expect them to be,which is highly agile, very fast moving , heavy weapons platforms, with the hull strength, and shield power of a wet tissue, given their size.
Buff the hell out of their weapon power and engine power, give them an insane turn rate, but nerf their hull and shields......basically if you stop moving....your dead....!?!( And I see a LOT of them just sitting still and unloading on those poor defenceless TAC cubes:rolleyes:)
Is my argument weak........possibly, it is after all based purely on an escorts size( and by extension their realistic hull strength and warp core potential) given that the Galaxies warp core is probably big enough to park a Defiant inside it,.......oh and the fact that I have had a few beers tonight, and well......I was just bored...:cool:
But given that the Defiant is, what,....120 metres long( and yes am happy to be corrected on any stats i mention), and the Galaxy is somewhere around the 650 metre mark, how does it compute that a ship that is less than 20% of the size has a hull point level equivalent to 75% of the larger ship? About the only thing they seemed to get right is the amount of crew!
Should they not be what most people expect them to be,which is highly agile, very fast moving , heavy weapons platforms, with the hull strength, and shield power of a wet tissue, given their size.
Buff the hell out of their weapon power and engine power, give them an insane turn rate, but nerf their hull and shields......basically if you stop moving....your dead....!?!( And I see a LOT of them just sitting still and unloading on those poor defenceless TAC cubes:rolleyes:)
Is my argument weak........possibly, it is after all based purely on an escorts size( and by extension their realistic hull strength and warp core potential) given that the Galaxies warp core is probably big enough to park a Defiant inside it,.......oh and the fact that I have had a few beers tonight, and well......I was just bored...:cool:
Post edited by coldbeer72 on
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As I recall for example the Defiant had ablative armour plating (not the same thing Voyager uses in End Game wish they had used a different name)
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/defiant-problems.htm
Now how they manage to produce a similar amount of raw power output on the other hand...
Things that dont make sense are exterior weapon mounts, armor plating, etc., the things that depend on physical volume and material density which are absolutes.
And there is a point where you have to say, what they did on screen makes sense for the TV/movies but does not make sense in a multiplayer game environment. Having a shuttlecraft use the same weapons and armor as a battleship does not make sense in any universe, its just a shortcut, lazy, stop it.
So yeah, all ships should be scaled in a predictable curve based on mass/volume. Hull, inertia, power levels, number of hard-points, etc.
Odds of happening are less than 30% IMO
As for the stats, they've got a game to balance. If it makes you feel better, remember that the Defiant was a tough little ship.
You wanna talk size imbalance, look at the pets. Both non-combat and hangar, ESPECIALLY the Ody's Aquarius, it actually has a balloon feature upon launch. I've heard the arguments for this being 'needed' for a visual perspective but isn't that what targeting systems are for?
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
The viewability issue doesn't impact hull, shields or abilities.
If you want to talk sizing issues, how can miniture players use those weapons that 2-3x bigger than they are? Now THAT is distracting.
To be honest, Cryptic has never been great at scaling, it's just a shortsided design of the engine. Initially they used excuses for these things like Camera issues or limited map sizes (which make sense), but at the same time, there is no reason that it wouldn't be possible to actually do scaling to a more realistic degree, especially given that the targeting in space combat is done by lock on rather than aiming. I personally would love if they actually made things scale better, even if if meant the Shuttle craft being almost invisible to larger ships. It would really just add to the game in a great way if they did it right.
I've always thought the Anitproton weapons especially looked like some type of plastic. (a very feasable future development for weight purposes) In that case, no reason a 3 foot alien could not use a 4 foot, but 1.5 lb. weapon.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
The Defiant was the most consistent of all the hero ships, in ALL its appearances, it was a badass. They even played on it to show how powerful and dangerous the Breen were.
Ships like say.. the Galaxy and even the Sovvy have had a more mixed record, mostly they were always the underdogs.... but what can you do with writers that only think the Enterprise being the inferior ship can cause drama?
That's where your argument breaks down completely. None of the star trek physics you are using are realistic in any sense of the word. This is all fiction.
Stacked on top of that fiction is the difference between what you think is Star Trek physics, what the writers of the show used as Star Trek physics, and then at the very end of it all, is Cryptic Math and STO's game mechanics as it interprets this fictional Star Trek physics.
In short anything you have to say about size and warp core potential has nothing to do with this video game's actual gameplay mechanics.
That Galaxy you think can hold a Defiant in its warp core? If they're using beam arrays, their Deeps in STO will be bad.
And that has nothing to do with Star Trek in any way shape or form.
On top of structural integrity systems, the Defiant might have had a really well engineered hull. It also had less non-defense systems requiring energy. On the other hand, it would make sense for a ship's mass to figure into it's hull rating, and for it's number of decks to figure into crew survival. I'm guessing that Cryptic has their idea of what the mass of the different vessels might be because of the inertia factor involved in ship movement in this game.
Of course, this game is more art than science.
Visuals, where the only priority was to look cool and draw in viewers who wanted to look at stuff that looked cool.
Not really what you want to use as a basis of what is theoretically feasible or not.
Any sense of reality went out the airlock (for me) with the planet-eater episode.
-- Smoov
Even with multiple Field Gen and Neutronium consoles, my Fleet Defiant gets clobbered pretty quickly in elite STFs, so much so that I'm used to fighting Cubes, Spheres, Raptors and Neg's with only half a hull. The lone exception is my Fleet Patrol Escort, which seems to hold up much better under fire than other models (sort of a mini-Tank with teeth).
By contrast, My Fleet "Ent-B" takes a pounding but rarely buckles. I don't fined the need to buff the shields as much and the "turn and burn" style of play lets me distribute the hits across all of the shield facings (vs. "point and shoot" with DHCs as my forward shield slowly melts to nothing).
So, as someone who has perfected the art of "stationary gun platform" fighting, I can attest that it's a nice departure to be able to move around and survive for a while longer by taking a "tanking cruiser holiday" from time to time.
The only downside is the DPS loss: Going from 5-6K down to 3K (on a good day) takes some getting used to.
RCK
Well said sir, and appreciate your "coming out", so to speak, would not have expected an "escort junky"(sorry if that offends, couldn't think of a better term), to admit that, while terribly effective, the escort approach is "less than satisfying" so to speak.
Have tried escorts, and, well, they are just boring....you know what I mean....."point, shoot, its dead....rinse and repeat"
I love my sci and eng Captains, they have to work at surviving, and still be offensively viable, its a challange to survive most ESTFs, and therein lies the fun.(from a personal point of view at least)
As for escort survivability? You only need to slot 4 abilities to stay alive in ESTFs with ease. EPtS1, Aux2SIF1, HE1, TSS2. Used correctly and intelligently, you will usually not have any trouble staying alive.
As for cruisers? Yeah. They stay alive. Forever. And ever. And ever. To the point where it's almost funny when you get attacked, since you wonder how long this one will pound on you until it gives up.
Anyways, back on topic. I always did find it interesting that an escort has 75% of a cruisers hull, with 300% of it's damage, at 10% (the tiny escorts, IE, Defiant, sabre, etc) to 50% of it's size (and that's the largest escorts, like the Armitage, Prommie, FPE, etc).
It does make you wonder about balance in this game. Wait, did I just use the "B" word in reference to STO? O.o
As far as I can tell that happens because they assign different weights to different stats. For example, that 25% less hull could be as important as that extra 200% damage.
This is particularly visible when we look at the Romulan ships. They get near fed stats with a battlecloak and singularity powers thrown in. In exchange they have a small (but apparently REALLY valuable from Cryptic's pov) reduction in power settings. I hear there's also some sort of unlisted defense or resistance penalty. To me this makes it clear that battlecloak is just not considered something of much value, and that Romulan ships ahve only been "balanced" around PvE.
I do notice the -40 SS power. It makes shield regen that much lower (20 power is pretty big), and it also reduces shield resilience. And with the -10 to aux (assuming I am running with the full power to weapons setup), it makes my aux based heals about 10% weaker, which is noticeable over the long run.
But if you look at it from a more... informed PoV, 25% hull compared to 200% damage... no. 25% hull is maybe what, 10k more, if that? And you can take that out in ONE salvo. Whereas 200% more damage is two salvos. So that's not really balanced. Now if it was 100% more damage for that 25% more health, or if health/shields weren't so easy to heal back and damage wasn't such a hard commodity to come by for anything NOT a tactical/escort/raptor/certain warbirds/BoPs, then it would seem more balanced.
But with how certain systems are currently in game... no not really. But that's basically mirroring what's been said in thousands of posts over hundreds of threads in almost every gameplay/shipyard subforum. And... no changes. Go figure.
No offense taken. Like I said, point-and-shoot gets boring after a while. I'm thoroughly enjoying the maneuvering involved in keeping my beams on target and torps lined up for hull shots. In fact, I just enjoyed one of my better KA Elite runs using my Ent-B. Took out the right gate pretty much on my own and much faster than with my Fleet Patrol Escort since I could hang in longer before breaking-off to heal/recharge (really digging the Reverse Shield Polarity).
Here's the build if anyone would like to critique - good for 4K DPS avg so far:
Ship Load Out:
Mark 12 Adapted MACO Set (Shield, Def, Engine)
Mark 10 FS Core (love the boost to weapons)
4x Mark 12 Fleet Polaron Beam Arrays (2x Acc, 2x Dmg)
4x Mark 12 Borg Quantums (working towards upgrading to fleet versions)
Eng Consoles: Borg Uni Assim, 3x Mark 11 Neutronium
Sci Consoles: Zero Point Energy Conduit, Mark 11 Field Gen
Tac Consoles: 3x Mark 11 Polaron Phase Mods, 1x Mark 11 Quantum Zero Point
Devices: 20x Bats for all categories (shield, weap, eng, aux)
BO Config:
Tac LC: BFAW1,BO2,THY3
Eng. CMDR: EPtS1,ET2,DEM2,Aceton3
Eng LT: EPtW1,RSP1
Eng EN: EPtS1
Sci LT: JTS1,TB2
Me: APA3,FOMM3,GDF3,Tac Fleet 2
Anyway, comments, opinions and advice all welcome. Really want to master the whole "Tac Officer in a Cruiser" style of fighting, so...
RCK
In my opinion Escorts get too many benefits or Cruisers/Science vessels too many disadvantages.
I mean, that stone/paper/Scissor mechanic:
1. is Outdated
2. doesn't apply to Star Trek in the first place. (at least not how Cryptic made it.)
3. doesn't work at STO at all.
Cryptics answer is: "Balance".
Strangely that answer is only used when they justify their beloved super strong Escorts.
Speaking about hull hitpoints, i know SIF systems make Escorts very sturdy. But what about Cruisers much bigger and more powerful Warp cores?
(in "real" Star Trek, not STO where any Warp Core can be installed on your Cuiser or Escort.
Shouldn't have a Cruiser much bigger and powerful Warp cores that make a cruisers SIF much more stronger than a escorts?
Shouldn't have a cruiser much more availlable power for it's systems, compared to a Escort or even a Science ship?
Why are a cruisers Weapons among the weakest in STO althrough in "real" Trek they where powerhouses?
Why are cruisers so slow turning, compared to even science ships or some super big Escorts? (just because someone slapped a "cruiser" sticker on a ship doesn't make it turn slower suddenly. Even if both ships are nearly the same size or the escort is even bigger, just compare the Ha'feh Assault Warbird and a Galaxy Class.)
I never understood why it is possible to install a DHC on a tiny ship like a defiant but not on a huge Odyssey or Galaxy class...
All this doesn't really make much sense to me.
My conclusion is, the devs love escorts. So they make them superior period.
... i have finished
I would have liked to have seen length, breadth, and tonnage listed in ship's stats. Not just the assigned turn rate and hull strength number.
Actually, the stats I used were just an example. I think Cryptic balances ships not only on hull and shields (which are often not that different), but also around boff stations. For example, that extra 25% hull is not incredibly significant, neither is that extra shield modifier, but those back up a more defensive set of engineer powers. At least I think that was the original intent way back in pre launch. These days its clear they want to make everything a destroyer, battlecruiser, or escort.... or some slight variant of them. Heck, the Vesta and Wells, both heralded as the best sci ships are really the sci version of a destroyer.
Of course, cruisers are also viable. Especially considering most of the rep gear is based around making cruisers better overall. But that's just it, you need to do a lot more grinding with a cruiser, or at least it seems that way to me so far.
But some will say well you have alot more crew more decks more area to shield etc so even if you have more power it goes to more things.
But we also have more power to divert around to stuff more power out of aux, more power to divert out of life support, and would it not make sense in heavy combat to put crew in battle stations or combat areas and use all those empty decks to divert more power into shields, aux etc as you can offline systems where crew arent. hence why ships have a red alert, to get people where they need to be and the most out of harms way.
nerf escort tank, they should all get way less shields than a cruiser no escort should hit 1.0 shield mod, they are avoidance tanks and they should avoid.
and give cruiser captains a "taunt" call it what you will, hacking, target painting, but if they want people to be tanks they need a way to get aggro.
and then we could have people more fullfilling the roles if a tank does it job escort can park and pew pew full out.
not park pew pew fullout while popping rsp and extend shield and emp2s. they should have to zip in and out of fire make alpha passes when cds are up and otherwise moving like mad and not parked certainly and not able to get as much dps down as they can now.
and while we at it wth is up with carriers when my fleet mate is for the lulz runing a rainbow boat and netting 17k dps in stf with an otherwise "fail" fit. i just faceplam. Carriers need a hard looking at because they are so over and above what any cruiser can put out and they just cruisers with some dinky TRIBBLE little teeny ships that should pop like popcorn to any capitol ship array.
Outside of the awkward Defiant in Star Trek, there's a simple reason large cruisers dominated Star Trek... because with a large ship, you can cram the biggest, newest, heaviest, most powerful equipment into that ship. Of all the canon Star Trek ships that Starfleet fielded, the Sovereign-class is the epitome of cutting edge cruiser designs, filled to the brim with the best of anything and everything the Federation had in technology. The designers did not have to worry about not being able to put this new X-named system onto the ship because it had the SPACE to put that TRIBBLE in. Unlike a small ship like shuttles, and other small craft to include frigates (which the Defiant falls into in size).
I can believe the Sovereign class / Enterprise-E was the best all around, hard hitting, resilient ships in the quadrant in any major power's navy. Because it CAN fit all the great equipment and was designed with the newest, best technology. But I cannot believe it can be done with a ship that's less than 1/4 the size of the Sovereign & Galaxy classes. The Defiant is the only ship that really is force fed its power down everyone's throats. But in all other instances of Star Trek, bigger ships = greater power in all regards.
That basically sums up the cruiser conundrum. Escorts are very easy to take and give massive damage output and decent tank. You can do it with mk X white gear and a generally informed BOff layout. However, on the cruiser side of things, you need mk XII purple gear, a very specific BOff layout, and you will only do respectable damage with acceptable tank.
Escorts = cheapsimpleeasymode
Cruisers = expensiveneedtoknowgameinsideandouttobeusefulmode
KDF Battlecruiser = godmode (seriously, those things are insanely wonderfully epically amazingly awesome)
4k is very very bad. I manage to get >8-13k all the time as a tac in a Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit or Fleet Assault Cruiser.
This is how I would run it:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sabfahcr12_0
You will need Technician doffs to make it work. Don't pay attention to the EPtA and ET, because I don't use them. With Aux2Bat, one obsolete ensign engineering abilites turns into two.
Just a note. People always ask me what weapons I am using, like they are super special, because they can't believe it, when they see a cruiser, that just shreds through npcs like they are made of paper. It's all in the build. Two copies of Aux2Bat garanty an almost constant uptime of APB2, which gives you a 40% dmg bonus against hull. You could do almost equal dmg with polarons, as a matter of fact, with any energy type, so no need to replace them.
Yes, Romulan Plasma is a bit better because it has two very useful procs against hull, the disruptor debuff and the plasma dot. Plasma also can be boosted further with embassy consoles and you can equip the Experimental Romulan Plasma beam array, which uses no power. But all of that is just optimizing, you should still be able to come very close to this with polaron.
On a fleet assault cruiser I have the advantage of being able to use two Romulan boffs, for an additional 4% [crth] und 10% [crtd].
The downside of that build is that it's actually quite boring, because you just broadside all the time with your beam arrays and don't have to do anything, if you have bound the abilites, which you want to be active as soon as they become available, to a single key, like me.
But I have many different ships and the most fun I get out of my Fleet Heavy Escort Carrier. On the dmg output perspective, my Aux2Bat Fleet Assault Cruiser trumps my escorts almost all of the time, if only by a narrow margin.
How are you measuring DPS? Because I keep hearing these ultra high values that I can't achieve even in my Fleet Patrol Escort with AP DHCs. Yet I shred just fine in Elite STF PUGs, and I'm almost always the top DPS generator within the group.
FWIW, I'm using CombatLogParser, which is a Java app. Is there some other way to look at this data to determine a more accurate DPS reading?
RCK
http://sto-forum.de.perfectworld.eu/showthread.php?t=297731
My friend uses Advanced Combat Tracker. So two different tools, two different users. His measurements of me are about the same as my own.
I grabbed the German reader. It's reporting 6.4K DPS for the same log that my other reader reported 4K. Looks like I'm getting around 99.84% accuracy with about 13% Critical Hits. Damage/Hit is around 1500, with most of that (1400) going to the hull.
This is with the config I quoted above. If I re-run one of my older Fleet Patrol Escort logs (I hang onto the good ones) I get around 8K DPS (vs. 5.3K with my other reader), with a Max One Hit of 46K from a Quantum volley. :eek:
So...maybe I need to re-spec my toon? I didn't pay much attention when building up my character points on the way to VA(50). Now I'm thinking I need to move stuff around. For example, I have no points in any Captain or Admiral level Tac skills but lots of points in things like Engine Perf, Hull Plating and Armor (seemed like a good idea at the time). All of which lets me tank like a cruiser but keeps me hitting like a shuttle.
And to think, I've successfully completed literally THOUSANDS of Elite STF runs - and I'm almost always the top DPS performer (when flying my Fleet Patrol Escort) per all of the Log Readers I've tried. But I somehow pale compared to you and other elite players. Gotta be those Skill points...
Thoughts?
UPDATED: Just re-ran KA Elite and *PUSHED* hard to max out my DPS. Got it up to 6.5K with 1500/hit and 16% Criticals. Also, I never missed - 100% accuracy. I came in third place against a bunch of Rommie escorts firing Plasma DHCs, none of whom broke 7K. What I noticed is that my damage PER hit was WAY higher than anyone in the group, however, my Attacks/sec were way lower (4.7/s vs. up to 9.3/sec for the Rommies). So it's not that I'm not doing damage, it's than I'm simply not firing as frequently as the escort boys.
RCK