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What might be good ways to lower the bar to PvP?
mimey2
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
We all know how bad it can be to 'enter' PvP and actually be competitive. Putting aside the skills needed (which anyone can learn), what do you all think might be ways of lowering the very high bar needed to enter PvP, and keep people wanting to play it?
1. Account rep.
Namely, if you finish rep on one toon, it counts for all toons. I'd be willing to accept some drawbacks though. Like it was faction-based for example; as in, if you completed it on a Fed, it would work for all Feds, or all KDF, or all Romulans. Or, on a similar note, if you still had to get enough marks to fill out each upgrade mission (which is only 150 marks per toon to get all 5 leveling missions done, plus a bit of wait time)
Even so, that would remove a month's worth of pointless, boring grind for all old and new players alike, and be much less painful for alting. I like having toons in all factions, and different classes, different ships, etc. Even if I had to grind all reps on one toon per faction, that would be a lot less painful if that is all I had to do.
There would still be the pain of the gear-grind, but I think that's a lot more tolerable to deal with, because gear isn't everything in this game. It's a lot, but not everything. Besides, and this might suck to hear, but we're all used to the gear-grind anyways. It takes the form of whatever you want it to take: Exchange gear, Fleet gear, rep gear, etc.
2. More war zones like Otha and Ker'rat.
They wouldn't have to use the Borg (please don't, they are used too much), but more War zones would be great. I don't care what the objectives are, just gimme some more.
3. Total Battle Royale
Another instanced-map. No teams, no allies, no PvE enemies, no obstacles, no stockade, no guard tower, no electronic frontier, only a magnetic shield which prevents beaming.
Just you, the enemies, and the stars.
Basically a total free-for-all in the purest sense. Nothing holding it back. No teams allowed, no allies (even people from your faction are enemies). Just 'pew-pew'.
4. No pre-made allowing queues
This one has been suggested recently. I agree with it. Nothing against the fleets who run premades (for good or for ill) but having a queue that wouldn't allow it would go a long way to making it less painful for more queuers to want to actually queue if they didn't have to worry about premades going out and pug-stomping.
5. Mixed faction queues.
Pretty straightforward. No FvK or KvK, just anybody who queues, can be teamed together.
What do you all think?
1. Account rep.
Namely, if you finish rep on one toon, it counts for all toons. I'd be willing to accept some drawbacks though. Like it was faction-based for example; as in, if you completed it on a Fed, it would work for all Feds, or all KDF, or all Romulans. Or, on a similar note, if you still had to get enough marks to fill out each upgrade mission (which is only 150 marks per toon to get all 5 leveling missions done, plus a bit of wait time)
Even so, that would remove a month's worth of pointless, boring grind for all old and new players alike, and be much less painful for alting. I like having toons in all factions, and different classes, different ships, etc. Even if I had to grind all reps on one toon per faction, that would be a lot less painful if that is all I had to do.
There would still be the pain of the gear-grind, but I think that's a lot more tolerable to deal with, because gear isn't everything in this game. It's a lot, but not everything. Besides, and this might suck to hear, but we're all used to the gear-grind anyways. It takes the form of whatever you want it to take: Exchange gear, Fleet gear, rep gear, etc.
2. More war zones like Otha and Ker'rat.
They wouldn't have to use the Borg (please don't, they are used too much), but more War zones would be great. I don't care what the objectives are, just gimme some more.
3. Total Battle Royale
Another instanced-map. No teams, no allies, no PvE enemies, no obstacles, no stockade, no guard tower, no electronic frontier, only a magnetic shield which prevents beaming.
Just you, the enemies, and the stars.
Basically a total free-for-all in the purest sense. Nothing holding it back. No teams allowed, no allies (even people from your faction are enemies). Just 'pew-pew'.
4. No pre-made allowing queues
This one has been suggested recently. I agree with it. Nothing against the fleets who run premades (for good or for ill) but having a queue that wouldn't allow it would go a long way to making it less painful for more queuers to want to actually queue if they didn't have to worry about premades going out and pug-stomping.
5. Mixed faction queues.
Pretty straightforward. No FvK or KvK, just anybody who queues, can be teamed together.
What do you all think?
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.pwlaughingtrendy wrote:I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
Post edited by mimey2 on
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Comments
1.
Account Rep will never happen. The longer you play this game, the more Cryptic likes it.
4.
Nah, a random only queue just harms those who like to play with their friends. It's hard enough to get queues to pop.
I used to be a pug-only PvPer, and got used to getting my TRIBBLE kicked by premades.
What did I do to end that? I started to make friends and played in pugmades or other premades, and eventually found a great group of guys to team up with.
PvEers or PvPing randoms need to learn to be more social if they want to avoid getting smashed in the queues.
A man can dream of more pew-pew though, can he not?
I doubt account rep would ever happen, but the more rep they introduce, the fewer folks will want to keep it up just to keep up with everyone else. That goes for anyone playing the game, let alone just PvPing. City of Heroes, if I remember right, before it was shut down, had like what...9 reputation systems? I think WoW has rep as well, and maybe some other MMOs. It's not necessarily a good thing in the long term to have so many.
I agree for the most part, but like I said, this is meant to lower the bar somewhat. I do agree, though I do have bias on this one. I've never liked queued PvP no matter what game I play. I like knowing where the 'PvP zones/areas' are, and that if I go there, I can PvP on my own choice, not just joining some random queue.
Like I said, being more social is good, but social or not, so many people have the 'Kirk-it' mentality, which probably hurts them WAY more than being anti-social in my opinion because of how they feel that they are 'teh best captain out there' and that they don't need anyone to win, just themselves and their ship of choice.
Or maybe I'm just crazy, who knows.
5. Mixed faction queues.
Pretty straightforward. No FvK or KvK, just anybody who queues, can be teamed together.
that one has a potential to actually make a change to pvp
@DevolvedOne
80% of pvp's instability and "bar" Height comes in knowing and exploiting broken skill
combinations. You reduce that amount by half, and all of the problems will be removed.
1 single mechanc.
only 1 officer can use 1 skill at a time, 25 second GCD on officer.
Problem solved.
You fix this problem, And pvp ques will sky rocket in sizes.
But these are only a few of the many issues with pvp.
Noses are hax, obviously.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
- Cookie-cutter premade 4 PVP builds by Cryptic .
Nope , because it would upset the majority of the existing pvp community .
- 'Regular' and 'Elite' PVP queues .
One would be for the fresh Lvl 50 with his Blue/Green gear , the other for the fully Reputation-ed Purple veterans .
I don't see how this could be implemented .
- Separating Pugs and Premades .
With the recent booming in PVP queues , I returned to occasionally PUG after over a year .
After my first day , the game tally was : KDF 12 victories , Feds 1 .
This made me ask myself , is everything OK in PUG land ?
- Building a separate Skill / Abilities tree for PVP / PVE .
This would work in the sense that every time a new console/doff is introduced , it would not automatically frack PVP , but it's too much work for Cryptic , and it would require them to balance each new item / ability twice (once for PVP and once for PVE) .
- New PVP content ?
Snicker .
No its not.
Look at the players with damage at the end of a game, Let me give you an example
of the last game i played.
Team 1
250k
200k
100k
75k
50k.
Team 2
2,500,000
1,200,000
356,000
152,000
75,000
lets assume that game was 15 minutes. (900) seconds
2,500,000/900 =2.7k Dps
250,000/900 = 277dps
There is a 1000% increase in damage between a lower, and upper player.
Now, I was in this game, and fully epic'd, But i was not the 2.5m
your argument that its epic is not true.
On act parse (which i probably still have) These players were spiking 22-23k damage.
and on average were holding 6-7k Dps.
everyone else was around 1.5k-5k with 7-9k spikes
Result, the factor that determines success is broken skill use (which i am working very hard
to gather support to destroy this from existing in the game)
The age of 1 shotting is coming to an end.
...you could bury the bar, hire folks to carry folks across where you buried the bar, and they'd still find a way to trip over it...
...because this is not the game for PvP. Everything about the game screams that.
The majority of folks are not looking for any sort of challenge in the least. It's just super casual fun. There's nothing wrong with that. Sure, it may be wrong for the person that's not looking for super casual fun...but they're obviously in the minority. The game reflects that...
...because this is not the game for PvP. Everything about the game screams that.
There are basically three choices (could be more, but I'm overtired and grumpy - so there's three):
1) Accept that STO is not going to be the PvP game you want it to be...
...and try to make the most out of what it does offer.
2) Accept that STO is not going to be the PvP game you want it to be...
...and forget about PvP - just enjoy the PvE aspect if you can.
3) Accept that STO is not going to be the PvP game you want it to be...
...and forget about PvP - if you can't enjoy any aspect of PvE either - forget about STO.
It's that simple.
There are folks that have a blast by reaching that point of acceptance with #1 up there. There are folks that have a blast by reaching that point of acceptance with #2 up there. There are folks that are having a blast somewhere else by reaching that point of acceptance with #3 up there.
It's that simple.
Doesn't mean that one shouldn't look for trying to make it better, both PvP and STO in general if they're going with #1 or #2...but it is definitely about having realistic expectations about what the game is going to offer a person.
You don't go to McDonald's for a fine a steak, but that doesn't mean that McDonald's doesn't do tasty McNuggets...you don't go to Burger King for lobster, but that doesn't mean that BK isn't the home of the Whopper...you don't go to an expensive restaurant to get a Frosty, you're going to Wendy's...but that doesn't mean the expensive restaurant doesn't serve a fine steak or lobster, eh?
Acceptance. Look around. It's that simple.
Edit: virusdancer is right, I am currently a fusion between points 1. and 2.
What really concerns me is the fact that there are reputation, doffs etc that only apply to PvP and don't affect PvE and usually in PvP are overpowered.
And whoever said that you are liable to offend someone with replies in these kind of threads, kudos for them...
In the making of this post a lot of characters (e.g. 'a') were born and destroyed.
Many of the things considered OP or even cheese by some in the PvP community...are considered UP or necessary by some in the PvE community.
The bar continues to be lowered over and over again...for PvE.
This obviously has the effect of raising the bar over and over again...for PvP.
Uber Casual Player A (again, there's nothing actually wrong with the player being Uber Casual - nobody's putting that they're Elite in STO on their resumes or trying to pick somebody up at a bar by bragging about how skilled they are in STO...it's just a game) who feels he or she needs Gear X...
...when facing Uber Elite Player B (again, I've said it in other posts - I consider myself average at best) using Gear X - well, they don't stand a chance. Even Somewhat Casual Player C with Gear X will be too much for Player A; much like Player B will be too much for Player C.
The better Cryptic is able to expand their PvE customerbase, the more they will shrink their PvP customerbase.
PvP players can take it upon themselves to maintain leagues/campaigns...create a PvP atmosphere that tries to balance out the effects of that PvE bar being lowered. Yes, it will require more effort on their part. The pseudo casual person though, well...that's going to leave them out, eh? There's also the great (I'd say pretty big risk) risk of any endeavors like that being swallowed by ego.
But consider the community efforts with the PvP Bootcamp, eh? Cryptic even got behind that to an extent, right? Additional efforts such as that, perhaps in the form of leagues and so forth...they might get behind that as well, eh?
It's almost July 2013...there are oodles of tools available out there for folks to try to organize such things. There's nothing stopping players from creating their own leaderboards, tracking results of matches to simulate some form of campaign, and oh so many other awesome (imho) things that could be done...nothing stopping players from doing that other than the players themselves.
Are the tools built-in to STO itself? No, they're not...it's not that easy. But folks could schedule matches, setup rankings, have folks of near equivalent rankings fight each other, etc, etc, etc. There could be different rulesets for different levels, additional "stuff" allowed, and all sorts of things.
As long as there is the ability to run private matches, what's stopping folks from making PvP so much better in the game? Such organized efforts from players in the community could actually serve to lower the bar and be more welcoming to PvP...where they feel that Cryptic has not been.
Meh, oh well...
GW2 does this pretty well...you start with enemies you can just stand and hit, but pretty soon combat gets hard enough where if you don't learn to dodge and use your skills well you will die constantly.
That way PvE is more of an extension of the game instead of a totally different experience.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Which isn't going to happen because every few weeks, every couple of months, etc, etc, etc - PvE is made that much easier...
...and while it's causing problems for PvP, there's no denying the growth of STO as Cryptic has gone down that route.
Stop with your lack of knowledge.
That happens with a pug team with good players against a well practiced premade.
Its called debuffs and team work.
Premade on premade, those figures are all even.
The queue system does need an overhaul though.
Maybe something like a vanilla queue. No rep, no rep gear, no lockbox ships. If it ain't available from the shipyard, mission drops or crafting, it can't be used.
Now if this were incorporated into a larger PvP rep system you could put a daily mark wrapper on each tier.
Or if we ever got faction cont- faction control... (fight against the cynicism) *breathe* If we got faction totals we could put a point on which faction wins the most matches per tier per day. Losers are forced to use the winner's default UI. lol.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Agreed. I see that kind of spread if I PUG PvE content and parse it as well. Even when my Rom was brand new and had balls for gear, she could outdamage most PUG players by a factor of 3-4. It's not that anything I had or did was broken, I wasn't even running the Valdore console, I'm just a lot better at the game than the average PUG player. In PvP that effect is even more pronounced since the depth of skill require to succeed is even greater. Tell a top tier PvP player he can only use a total F2P, no rep gear build and he'll still whoop most PUG players. Hell, there are a lot of people on this forum that would whoop MY TRIBBLE even under that restriction. Even if I'm a very good PvE player, I'm only a competent PvP player. That's the depth of skill level you see in this game, and that's what causes these huge disparities in damage output and other measures.
1.) Make tanking a viable role again. I'm thinking some kind of mark system specific to cruisers so that escorts who would normally ignore them, HAVE to attack the tank, or suffer defensive and offensive penalties.
2.) Tier the PvP maps so people can engage others of their skill level. I think it should be a kind of self tiering reputation system that allows people to find where they truly belong on the pecking order rather than dictate it from on high.
Beyond that, it's the normal "more" ideas. More PvP maps, more warzones, more types of PvP matches, more reasons to engage in PvP at all.
I love space PvP, it truly tests your skills and build and is just a lot of fun. The bar doesn't need to be lowered for people, it should be set up so people will want to meet the current bar, and those options currently don't exist.
this is
That's me !
You're talking about a rating system where if you win your rating goes up, if you lose it goes down. The system would generally queue you with people around your same rating. That would work, as long as there was some way to deal with people carpet bagging. IE: deliberately throwing a bunch of matches to lower their rating so they can come back and ROFL stomp the low rated players. Kind of like being a pool shark, or revealing that you are in fact not really left handed.
The Fixing of Ker'rat spawns could remove a lot of the Heavy Hitting players from that area. As a lot of the best players do not like Ker'rat unless there is something to accomplish (like breaking spawn camps). But also this opens the door for some of the Klinks I have seen that are not so skilled to get thier time to shine. As I often follow or am followed by newer Klink players that want to see what I do (which is often Explode). I think that this new breed of PvPer that gets their time to Pew Pew on their own will help to level the Skill gap that a lot of Feds complain about. I cite the frequent "Please Nerf the Evul Klinguns" threads that often appear without need.
I like this one, no idea if it will ever happen.
Some questions on this, since it has been suggested many times before:
What do you recommend as an incentive to get people to join that queue that is now a separate queue and is unlikely to be even 1/10th as active as the current queues?
How do teams of uncoordinated players (usually feds) ever learn to get better vs. teams of (usually KDF) players that aren't a "premade" but have played enough times with each other and actually...think about teamwork & cooperation?
What do you think could help convince those players to try their hand at the harder aspects of PvP, chiefly intense teamwork and cohesion?
If we never get cross-faction queues, what do you think the impact would be to split us from
3 different queues for Arena (FvF, FvK, KvK)
and
3 different queues for C&H (FvF, FvK, KvK)
and
2 Warzones
to
Doubling all of that with "Standard" and "Premade" versions.
(I ask because I genuinely don't have answers to these)
This highlights my point above.
It's unlikely all of those KDF are "premades"
But they are such a small group, that they have played enough times together that they are effectively an efficient "PUGmade".
Nothing stops them from queuing FvK where they know they will be fighting feds and know they will likely be together on the team.
There is a lot of truth in this.
You definately have this figured out. But sooooo many players refuse to accept that they picked up the game 3 months ago and they can not go all Captain Kirk on us and Pew Pew everybody that gets in thier way. Especially the ones that think that a bug ship beat them, when they are getting ganked by 5+ Klinks... the Bug ship helped, but was not the deciding factor lol. I do think that slowly helping to allow more time for the players to experience life outside of a camp (Fed or Klink) will encourage more PvP. Since a life that last 3.4 seconds due to Tricobalts or Tholain Web mines on spawn points... is just demoralizing to anybody. On the rest I agree, that skill gaps must be bridged. And ironicaly removing some of the difficulty from escaping spawn will have a negative effect on my skill. As I will not have to punch or sneak my way out anymore.
Probably Was, But that's not the point, The title is "how to lower the bar" the people who are in premades are breaking that, It's the vet players that are raising the bar so high the new players can reach it. Remove this problem, and you fix pvp.
Dps spikes were at 22k on the upper Dmg dealing players, A clear sign, skill based combat is broken, and we need to fix it