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Why do ppl think escort overpower?
matrix0
Member Posts: 261 Arc User
I flew all type of ships in STO, and I don't think escorts have advantages over any other ship classes.
Escort dps is great with its alpha strike. However, they're fragile. It's kill 1st or or die.
Cruiser has low dps but great shield and hull. To win vs escort in pvp... all you need to do is know how to cancel out its alpha strike.. I seen lot cruiser setup vs escort... and they're totally wrong.
Sci vessel can deal with escort better than cruiser... as long you know how to cancel out the alpha strike.
There are 3 playing classes and 3 main types of ship. That means 9 setups combine with boff/doff skills and weapon types, we got a lot of configuration to play with. Therefore if you don't know how to handle a cruiser or a sci... it doesn't mean they're weak, Escort, like any dpser type in mmo, is the easiest to play with but boring. Cruiser/Sci ships require skill full mastery. If you only know how shoot... flight an the escort It requires no skill or brain. However, if you want to master the art of true spaceship combat flight a cruiser or sci vessel.
Escort dps is great with its alpha strike. However, they're fragile. It's kill 1st or or die.
Cruiser has low dps but great shield and hull. To win vs escort in pvp... all you need to do is know how to cancel out its alpha strike.. I seen lot cruiser setup vs escort... and they're totally wrong.
Sci vessel can deal with escort better than cruiser... as long you know how to cancel out the alpha strike.
There are 3 playing classes and 3 main types of ship. That means 9 setups combine with boff/doff skills and weapon types, we got a lot of configuration to play with. Therefore if you don't know how to handle a cruiser or a sci... it doesn't mean they're weak, Escort, like any dpser type in mmo, is the easiest to play with but boring. Cruiser/Sci ships require skill full mastery. If you only know how shoot... flight an the escort It requires no skill or brain. However, if you want to master the art of true spaceship combat flight a cruiser or sci vessel.
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try to do an ISE with 5 cruisers.. you will be very close to not making optional if you even get it at all.
now 5 escorts, you will have 8 minutes left..
[12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
If you're talking about eSTF, then cruisers have no problem splitting out dps... if you setup it correctly. Think cannons and alpha strike. In some cruisers such as the bortasque, you can out dmg an escort The odessey pump out lot dps with cannons/torp setup. I can easily kill the cube or guard the probes with my setup... unlike other cruisers using beams. Off course cannons only work for cruisers that have enough tac boff. If you cant have rapidfire/scattervolley, cannons setup is TRIBBLE.
However, ppl complain about escort mostly because they lose in pvp. As I said, escort has only 1 trick - alpha strike. If you know how to cancel this trick, escort is out. And it's pretty simple to do it.
Now as to why escorts are OP. Beams take more energy but do less dmg, DHC do more dmg and use up less energy per cycle. Cruisers a tanks but have low defense value. Escorts a glass cannons but have the most defense.
In the begining escorts had weak shields, now fleet escorts have 1.0 shield mods like a lot of cruisers. In the begining escorts had weak hulls. Long time ago the escort hulls were upped and now most escorts have 40-50k hulls. Escorts used to be limited in sci and eng, now tons of them have LTC of either. DHC used to not have +10 crit d, and was on a global cooldown with other cannons, that was removed. There has been no change to beams since launch.
All in all time had given escorts tons of boosts. While little has aided sci/cruisers. When all optionals in STFs became time based the game became majorly focused on DPS, nothing dps better then a good player in an escort.
Are escorts OP? In the hands of a skilled player they are damn hard to kill, will shred you in a second. Even in the hands of a skilled player a sci ship/cruiser will have a much tougher time doing the same. Though if thats your goal go KDF/Romulan and get cruiser that mount DHC.
My opinion, ya they are OP vs when we started the game by a massive margin. But are they unkillable? Nope. Cruisers on the other hand has had a much less noticeable power creep or i should say less sever. Sci ship skills got nerfed, so they arent a lot better off then the start of the game.
Problem is any boost to sci/eng skills help escorts as well. New embassy consoles/Dilthium mine consoles are a prime example. Hard to close any power gap when we all share the same items, except for DHC. Id rather they made beams have +10 acc to balance out +10 crit d on DHC, and give each other type of weapon its on advantage like DC having +1% crit etc.
As for PvP they really need to seperate it from PvE and for every item that gives a boost in one thing add a weakness to another such as armor negating an escorts agility by X% making them easier to hit and an ACC X2 beam against one could be an ACC X3 ontop of having a more difficult time keeping whatever you are firing at inside the arc. PvP should also be more equal, sci ships should get a boost to shields, cruisers a boost to hull and escorts to DPS's where everyone is exactly on the same footing before consoles and weapons are added into the mix. All default weapons with no consoles and it should be a battle of attrition. Add a console that boosts X you lose an equal amount of Y.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
No one says that beams aint good. Beams have different playing style. Cannon is all about alpha strike. No alpha strike play style... no point using cannons. Beams have more firing arc compare to cannons. Hence, less dmg per beam, but if u're slow moving turtle, the beams wide firing arc compensate for the low dps.
You cant compare fleet escort stats to non-fleet ship. All fleet versions have better shield/hull. Fleet cruiser still have more shield/hull than fleet escort.
I don't think dps is a factor in my choice of ship. I flight cruiser/carrier/sci vessel 'cause of the skills/play style.
Escorts can shred anything in seconds due to its alpha strike. You know how to cancel the alpha strike, escort isn't a threat or op.
PVP. This is where it actually gets mixed up more, compared to even PVE. The best PVP groups are ideally balanced. SCI, Cruisers, Escort ships. The ideal is also cross support. You'll see the organized Premade groups are balanced in composition. For PUGs though, an Escort heavy group can be quite nasty, but are vulnerable in not being able to do Cross Support like a balanced group.
For PVP, the end goal is good spike damage. This is what outright destroys an enemy at the start of a fight. This is what it takes to get past the tough defenses of today, which Escorts are well capable of. Don't let the "smaller" shield mod of Escorts fool you. Combine that with the faster speeds that bring a bonus to defense, and great maneuverability to move a weak shield facing away from dangerous sources, Escorts have superior defenses despite "weaker" shields. Not to mention they do not have weak hulls in STO. Escort hulls are not that far off in hull points compared to most Cruisers. Hell, Escorts have MORE hull points than Science Vessels.
Anyways, Damage makes the world go around in STO. If you're not doing your part in pouring out tremendous damage, or being an Escort's Healbot/Healboat, then you are a liability in both PVP and high-end PVE.
I wish it wasn't like that in STO, but that is how it is now. At least at the beginning of STO's release, everything was fun and viable. Not now. If you're not a damage dealer or playing subordinate to an Escort, you are a problem.
The escorts are not OP. The other ships are slightly underpowered IMO, but not by much. I wish they'd increase sci power damage, and do something for the beams.
Their is no mission that is designed for Cruisers or Sci ships to get 1st place like their is for Escorts except for Cyrstalline Catastrophe mission. Just that 1 mission for them compared to multiples for Escorts.
The speed at which Escorts can kill stuff is just to high in comparison to other ship types. Yes a Escort is built for destroying things but the difference for it compared to other type of ships is just to high.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
As others pointed out, most of the game or endgame is based on time mechanics. Try doing a STF with all good cruisers and one with all good escorts. The escorts could do two or three in the time the cruisers did one.
I really like playing a cruiser, but the last few days I've been making some grind of nukara and omega marks and I had to go get my MVAE and leave the Odyssey because it's way more fast. For instance, on azure the 54000 hull and 19000 shields (Odyssey) are absolutely not an advantage as they are not needed at all. The MVAE clears the enemy before shields are down and hull is even needed.
Escort is easy, Sci ship is medium, Cruiser is hard. :rolleyes:
Too many Escorts have 35k+ hulls, 10k shields, high passive hull and shield regen, amazing procs (Crippling Strike, etc), and have the DPS of Gods to go along with it.
The glass cannons aren't so glass anymore.
Tried cruiser, didn't like, went to escorts and loving it ever since. Sometimes I fly mirror Vo'quv Carrier as a support for my pets only and with attack pattern beta they deliver some nice dps.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm sorry, but your friends in Starfleet Dental disagree with your pessimistic attitude to cruisers.
Please view this instructional video on how to run ISE in mainly cruisers and not fail the optionals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_dTfZpkTE
We will some day put up a speedrun with optimised shipbuilds, but as you can plainly see our kitchen-sink fleet managed to just edge in the optional.
If you have any questions about how to stop failing at easy STO content in cruisers, please contact one of our liaison officers.
put a tac in that escort, and it feels literally like cheating. srsly, I have fun beating tac kumaris with my sci in a vesta, but going to my tac with an escort, is just plain easy mode. only got 2nd once on SB24, because I warped in for the negvars at 5/20 O.o
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
Now, I can already hear the various cries of the escort crowd, "Oh, you just want more DPS!" or "Know what your ship is good for!", or "You know your role as a science officer!"
Okay, let me ask the obvious question then, what role does science really have?
What "role" does science play in this? Control just isn't happening, as all is needed to shake off even the most troublesome of tractor beams is APO, or simply Polarize Hull I. Gravity well is a joke, especially if you consider that probes (not spheres) fly away from it relatively unphased in elite STFs, or even a Recluse on the rare instance you see one in pvp, it's pretty sad. You certainly can't rely on Tyken's Rift, the energy drain is paltry, at best.
"What about subsystem targetting?" I can hear them ask. "What about it?" is my reply. Defense is based on movement (primarily, not touching upon skill trees, or boff skills), and they so happen to use the fastest moving ships, both in impulse modifiers, and turn rates, as one would rightfully expect if they were glass cannons. Even assuming it hits, which is a rather major assumption, the drain is minor at best, and even assuming it actually takes the engines out, a simple battery can fix that, and off they go again. This is made all the worse by the Leech console, making subsystem attacks even more of a joke, as the affected ship can easily make up the energy "lost" simply by continuing to fire.
"But you have Viral Matrix" Yep, and with a human crew it does... what exactly? At best 3 seconds, which is all well and good if by some strange miracle you have SNB ready as well to take off the tac team that one has plenty of time to pop, which case, you might actually get to do some hull damage before they use APO/EM/Aux2Damp and flee with relative ease, to heal up and try and spike kill again, assuming they don't simply use a heal, mid VM, and pretty much negate your attack after you blow your SNB.
So, that should pretty much cover control...
DPS? Yeah... not happening there, that is the realm of the escort, which it should be, as rarely does science immediately lead the mind to "supreme doom overlord".
That leaves one area, healing, which, thanks in large part to the Plasmonic Leech, many escorts can take care of themselves just fine, arguably better assuming a science ship goes beams to any extent and tries to balance weapons with aux.
Two tac teams, and boom, the minor variance in shield power is handily taken care of. Toss on a EPTS, an HE I or II (preferably both, and which also effectively kills pretty much every other debuff that is left) and congratulations, you've made an escort that can resist pretty much any hold, flee from any conflict, and heal itself rather nicely.
So, I ask again what role does this leave science? At best, to heal the cruiser, but as is more often then not the case, healing itself in the vain hope that another ship will come along and save it in time.
Am I saying that escorts should be nerfed on damage? Oh my no. Am I saying that they should be slower? Not in the least. What I am saying though, is with very little effort, thought, or skill, an escort can be self sufficient, highest damage dealing, and most evasive by default with relative ease. The "weakness" of their shields is minimal at best, nearly on par with cruisers to start, more hull then the science ships, and the maneuverability plus dual tac teams pretty much eliminates the idea of more shields by science. You certainly can't lock them down either, to any meaningful extent.
What I am proposing though, would be two things.
1. Respec science skills so they can actually do something again. As it stands, they're emergency healers (mostly for themselves).
2. Lower escort hulls (Oh my, now I've done it, I've suggested nerfing something, surely I must be the antichrist).
Hear me out on this. In what sense does it make sense that an escort of tiny proportions, and mass (as based upon inertial value), that is the most maneuverable and fast as well, has shields on par with cruisers practically, and has the most damage output? Damage, I'll grant it, speed, sure, as it's so small and light, but then to say it has heavier hulls then a science ship, or shields on par with a cruiser? I'm sorry, but how can that be reasonably seen as "balanced", or even seen as possible? Size and mass dictate hull strength in reality, and while this is a scifi game, there is some basis in reality (albeit tentative when applying some of the skills, such as transwarp).
To put it in a more palatable fashion, you don't expect an agile fighter to also be as good a healer as a cleric, or adept at magic as a wizard, which is pretty much what is going on. You expect them to hit hard, and either evade, or die. As it stands, they not only can evade, but can heal, counter grapples, out dps, and tank, all rather adeptly in the hands of a decent player.
I can't speak for cruisers in general, having only used science ships, so good luck to them.
As to how I get the alluded to kills in pvp? The new mines help a ton, but before that, transphasic cluster torps at point blank range to prevent evasion, and Rommy/Omega torps to make escorts burn their healing early, or risk burning up.
Anyway, I've rambled on long enough, I'm sure by the end of this I've either missed something, misread something, some other faux pas that I can't see since I should of probably passed out a few hours ago. I also hope I didn't step on too many toes, as it is merely my two cents on the matter and isn't my intent to cause any flame issues, and what I've observed in PVE, as well as PVP.
And you fail to mention the subnucleonic I win button. Yeah, right.
Bravo, way to really cut down my arguments.
1 ability with a 2 minute cool down does not make a balance, especially as it only turns off abilities that are currently active, and what's more, that effect only runs for 30 seconds total, or so it says.
So please, tell me how an ability that can be used once every two minutes, has a firing arc, and only affects healing that is currently active is a real counter to what I posted.
You also failed to answer my question, or address any of my arguments.
The defense of these ships are outrageous they don't give near enough bonuses to the scores that matter for skills for the captains the fall into the appropriate categories.
Let me explain. A tactical captain should not be able to have the same healing skills as a science captain, nowhere near. They already have better damage skills but their science and engineering heals should be non-existant as much as possible imo because that would give them too much of an advantage. Minor ajustments to the base skills of each type of captain would fix this problem in a heartbeat.
Add to that the defense bonuses from movement, the special gear from the fleet and reputations, and you have not a glass canon you have a diamond/dark matter canon that's bent on your explosion without any chance of you taking down their defenses in time.
It's highly imbalanced.
Yes. I destroyed all your arguments with that one, for it makes them all invalid.
Because once again, you fail to note that its an ability that totally debilitates the target and strips it of all buffs. Even if its countered, it basically resets all the cooldowns.
Its your personal I win button, what more do you want?
I stated pretty clearly that it turns off currently active abilities, but does not touch abilities used after the fact, if you have reading comprehension issues, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry to every little escort that just has to pop it's Evasive Manuevers, fly away, wait 30 seconds at most, and then fly back in every 2-3 minutes.
Tell you what, get Cryptic to drop APO, and I'll trade SNB away in a heartbeat.
And "debilitating"? It does one thing, once, and not even to any spectacular degree, requiring AUX to pretty much be maxed to delay to any drastic extent. It doesn't reverse any shield heals, it doesn't stop the target, it doesn't damage the target... It stops currently active buffs, and slows down their skills only, for 30 seconds, or they could use science team, or more likely the case, have a science ship do it for them science team (yay, we found their one and only roll, to every two minutes use a science team on a tac ship). Know why science team isn't worth it? Because SNBl isn't an "I win" button, it's an annoyance, at best.
Even assuming, worst case, a 125 aux, and a person is hit, and they use tac team, they'll have to wait (assuming no doff perks) a whole 23 seconds instead of 15! Or say, HE, 47-48 seconds, they might actually have to ask a science ship or cruiser to use a heal! Yep, cripping, definitely can't recover from that. It's not like they're in the fastest, most maneuverable ships, with multiple means of escape, like APO, engine batteries, evasive maneuvers (which benefits the user based on speed, so it benefits them the most as they move the fastest per unit of engine power), Aux to Batteries, Aux to Dampeners, or if none of those are available, either by choice or by use, ramming speed.
Indeed, truly that person is trapped, crippled, desolate, and ultimately boned. They'll have to simply fly off, wait a few moments, then go back in. Truly a trying time for them...
So, do you have any arguments, or is it safe to write you off as trolling at this point?
Edit: I forgot to mention that they may even have to use, dare I say it, the T5 rommy power! Not that it isn't an instant, "So long suckers" to every ship that isn't an escort, giving them time to flee, buffs their healing and such.
All content rewards DPS.
More damage = first place in stf's.
More damage = faster stfs and ability to do the optional
There's no need for healing or tanking of any kind really. Which is the issue. Power creep over the months/years also had an effect on survivablity.
Personally, I run a hybrid cruiser. I have massive survivability with 6.5k dps atm. It's still nothing compared to escort damage. My problem is that my ability to get and maintain all npc's to focus attack me, is not rewarded. In fact by doing this, and taking a spot from an escort, I extend the time it takes for the STF to be done.
By playing a cruiser, I'm effectively punishing the escorts in my team!
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It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
dont feel bad. most escorts I have seen struggled to jump the 4k dps mark, while their low end should be 14k...
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
Put it his way:
I am in a cruiser, with 10K shield and nearly 40% resistances in all categories. (Not including my buffs that activate after) A Romulan Bird of Prey in PVP uncloaked and destroyed me in 1.5 seconds. IN order for that to happen his DPS needs to be almost 40K in that one second. I could not event react to click one of my abilities.
In many PVP Kerrat zones, some escorts can take damage like a tank. I don't know who they were but they had 6 ships on them, locking multiple tractors on it, and he/she was tanking damage like a TANK. It took 6 ships to destroy him while he/she could do some major DPS.
Escorts should NOT be able to do this. They are NOT tanks. Cryptic doesn't know how to balance or program anything that well.
cause sometimes its party time!
To be honest, I think you're being rather pessimistic here. There is a reason why the standard premade PvP team is 3 sci and 2 tac. I main science as well.
SNB may be as you say on its own, that is true. However, one must take a page from the tac book in that SNB shines when used in combination. SNB, tractor and warp plasma, and you have a sitting duck for your team's weapons fire. Add VM if you want to make things worse. Combining with doffed Siphon or Scramble would do nicely too.
Also, SNB is not aux dependent. It strips all buffs, and extends all cooldowns for 30s, no more, no less. In PvP, survivability is dependent on buffs. An unbuffed target is a dead target.
As for Sci team, true, someone else could toss it on. Still, in many cases,cthe subnuke has done its job in detoothing the escort, especially if he was buffing up for an alpha strike. However, this is where teamwork comes into play on your side as well! Have a buddy in an AtB cruiser focus on him while he has to get buffs back up, and he can be dead inside of 10-15s.
Finally, PvP is a bunch more fast-paced than you might think. People can go from perfect to 0 in ten seconds or less. Also, the t5 romulan power has a 5min cooldown, and goes off after 5 to 8s, after which your entire team can resume pounding on him.
As for escape, evasive is when you use the tractor. As for APO, SNB should be timed to put that on cooldown. Extremely few run AtB on escorts, and then they cycle it, which means it's on cooldown as well. AtD gives very little boost to speed, and tractor is a very big slow anyways.
In short, I think you're being a bit too pessimistic as PvP moves a lot faster than you think, and SNB really shouldn't be used in a vacuum.