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The borg. Dumbest Star Trek villains ever?
sonnikku
Member Posts: 77 Arc User
What is up with the borg? After watching all the shows I'm left to conclude they routinely clench defeat from the jaws of victory every time. After watching The Best of Both Worlds HD a few nights ago I'm left with a head scratcher;
If the borg have transwarp, WHY do they head to Earth at dinky ol' Warp 9, conveniently allowing the Enterprise to catch up to them when they could so easily reach Earth and hammer it's defenses before the Feds had the time to formulate a plan, much less get a fleet in place? Even if they didn't consider the Feds a threat, would not reaching the target of their assimilation sooner rather than later be more efficient? Surely the borgs favor efficiency, if nothing else.
For that matter, why do the borg blatantly leave the Enterprise in one piece and go about their merry way after Riker fires his big shot, letting the Enterprise off with a free pass despite interfering? Every other Fed ship the borg came across (Wolf 359) was decimated in contrast. What makes the Enterprise so special?
While we're on the topic of the Federation, why do the Borg even want it so bad? The Delta quadrant is positively teaming with life yet to be assimilated, some species of which even have slip stream and technology far and away better than Starfleet. Starfleet isn't even the biggest threat in the Borgs native quadrant, little own the galaxy. Yet taking Earth is top priority. Why?
While we're on the topic of assimilating Earth and conquering the Federation though, if the Borg have a transwarp hub that can drop borg ships off RIGHT at Earth's doorstep, why even bother plotting a long, time consuming warp course to Earth in the first place? If the borg queen has enough cubes to TRIBBLE away on something as frivolous as making a point to Janeway, surely she could have mustered 5-6 to send through the transwarp hub and take Earth without warning.
Near as I can tell, the good guys only win because evil is dumb.
If the borg have transwarp, WHY do they head to Earth at dinky ol' Warp 9, conveniently allowing the Enterprise to catch up to them when they could so easily reach Earth and hammer it's defenses before the Feds had the time to formulate a plan, much less get a fleet in place? Even if they didn't consider the Feds a threat, would not reaching the target of their assimilation sooner rather than later be more efficient? Surely the borgs favor efficiency, if nothing else.
For that matter, why do the borg blatantly leave the Enterprise in one piece and go about their merry way after Riker fires his big shot, letting the Enterprise off with a free pass despite interfering? Every other Fed ship the borg came across (Wolf 359) was decimated in contrast. What makes the Enterprise so special?
While we're on the topic of the Federation, why do the Borg even want it so bad? The Delta quadrant is positively teaming with life yet to be assimilated, some species of which even have slip stream and technology far and away better than Starfleet. Starfleet isn't even the biggest threat in the Borgs native quadrant, little own the galaxy. Yet taking Earth is top priority. Why?
While we're on the topic of assimilating Earth and conquering the Federation though, if the Borg have a transwarp hub that can drop borg ships off RIGHT at Earth's doorstep, why even bother plotting a long, time consuming warp course to Earth in the first place? If the borg queen has enough cubes to TRIBBLE away on something as frivolous as making a point to Janeway, surely she could have mustered 5-6 to send through the transwarp hub and take Earth without warning.
Near as I can tell, the good guys only win because evil is dumb.
Post edited by sonnikku on
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For instance, if I write one, Earth can blow up and then magically appear again without said fact requiring any logic to it.
USS Silverburn NX-150996-B
Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit [T5-U]
Still, as a concept, they rock.
Borg arrive at Earth (no starships in the way)
And make a landing
Immediately they are facing REAL humans with REAL weapons not just Starfleet
red necks with shotguns
Japanese businessmen with katana
Greek Farmers with very big knives
the borg last maybe half a day before the last borg is de-assimilated
then THEIR tech becomes human tech and all borg everywhere are a slave species within a decade
remember humans are smarter , meaner and nastier than borg
indeed prior to meeting humans borg were harmless machines
Ann Manistee Traverse - Human Science ~~ Oken Miquat - Saurian Tactical
Exin Jor - Joined Trill Engineer ~~ Vartox - Romulan Science
Dn'Dok, son of Ladok - Klingon/Romulan Engineer ~~ Mosa M'ren-faa - Ferasan Tactical
Krushan Twinn - Orion Science
In TNG, the Borg did not have Transwarp. They only had normal warp. It was the rogue Borg under Lore's command in Descent who were the first to get a transwarp vessel.
The Enterprise was left alone because after it's big shot, it was left immobile. It couldn't do anything, so it was left alone. Same reason away teams to the Borg ships are left alone until they start causing trouble. At Wolf 359, the fleet was there, active, causing trouble hammering the cube. They were required to have action taken to maintain the integrity of the Cube.
It's not that the Federation or Earth was a top priority target. Remember there was a cube floating around assimilating federation and romulan colonies along the neutral zone as early as the end of season 1. Cubes were floating around assimilating worlds all across the galaxy, earth just happened to be the one we saw. And with earth being the centre of the federation, it was the logical place to go and start (as Locutus said) elevating all other species to a state of perfection by incorperating them into the collective. The Borg's actions were taken by a benevolent objective, which just makes them all the more scary. They were helping us.
And then the Borg Queen came along. And all that lack of individuality, that lack of hive mind, the lack of centralisation, that goal of helping all other species just went out the window and they became the laughing stocks. For some reason, the Queen became obsessed with humans to the point she left Seven in as a sleeper agent. There is no real answer as to why, other than we as viewers are humans, and have more connection to the peril of humans than alien species.
The Queen also completely messed up numerous Borg lines in Best of both worlds about 'our archiac authority driven civilisations'. The inclusion of the Queen makes the borg exactly that. I loved Alice Krige's performance as her in First contact and Endgame, but that was one of the worst things they could have done for the Borg.
The transwarp issue you raised is valid. If Voyager had said the Borg only developed the transwarp conduits (and hubs, again removing the whole 'lack of any kind of centralisation that made them such a deadly opponent in TNG) after Descent, or even after First Contact, it would have been fine. The two cubes (2 cubes in 6 years, certainly not what you would call a high profile target) would have to have used standard warp, only aquiring transwarp after that. It would have been fine. But Voyager retconned it so the Borg had transwarp the entire time. Which does beg the question why did they only travel at standard warp?
It could be said the first cube went at standard warp as it was charting the sector, discovering what else lay in this area of space. Which makes sense considering it was there for at least 2 years before heading towards Earth. But why did the second cube not transwarp directly in? Who knows. The sphere in Endgame did, so it was possible.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
The answer is, the Federation and Earth were NEVER a real priority, even with the Queen having a somewhat obsessive view towards it.
The Borg had thousands to tens or even hundreds of thousands of ships. The most ever sent at the federation was one at a time. If assimilating the Federation were a priority the Borg could have sent a hundred cubes at once and steamrolled it. But it wasn't a priority.
The dumbest Star Trek villains - if not the Borg, then who? Gentlenerds, I give you the original Ferengi.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
In TNG's "Best of Both World's" the dilution of the Borg began; as suddenly the Borg (honestly for reasons that made ZERO sense); decided they needed an assimilated Human (Locutus) to "Speak for them" as they came to assimilate Earth (and supposedly would get around to all the other Federation member races afterward. So, in one fell swoop they went from absolute 'force of nature' locust-type enemies, to enemies that did parley.
In TNG's "I Borg" - the neutering was further (although, I'm sorry, but to say that a species who assimilates actual individuals into their collective on a regular somehow doesn't still know/understand/can deal with individuality - IE Picard thinking that if they bring out Hugh's individuality, it will spread among the Borg - is just stupid.
Then in 'Descent' we have the more neutering of the Borg; as (thanks to writers who just wanted a cliffhanger; and either forgot or discarded "Q-Who") they now have a 'splinter group' of Borg individuals, who embrace emotion and are lead by an AI/Android design teh Collective stated was 'obsolete' in "Best of Both Worlds".
Then in the feature film "Star Trek: First Contact", the Borg are reduced to being petty/negotiating/egotistical beings as we find the are all controlled by a 'Borg Queen' who uses them to fulfil her personal desires; and can lust after a Starfleet Captain, and decide to 'make deals' with other beings.
The Borg did manage to get even more neutered in VOY from what I've read; but by "First Contact" they were just transformed from their original concept -- to just another powerful alien race that the Federation could negotiate with. /yawn.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
It just does what it does and nothing you can say will stop it.
Then the Borg Queen arrived and suddenly the Borg grew a collective mustache to twirl.
Borg cant think outisde the box, per say. They need new minds to learn new technology. They are like a bee hive, once a collective mind is set to a certain goal, its nearly impossible to change thier natural programing. Adding in the queen worked for the movie, but I like how they portrayed them on TNG better, as you seen when Picard was captured, by chaging tacticsthey confused them and they couldnt think, it left them defensless like putting a leaf infront of an ant line...but they where still kind of a mystery and an actual danger, even one of the Foundry Missions I reviewed (Yet Another Borg mission By @stevehale) he captures what the Borg where meant to be, they where NOT cannon fodder! A Borg cube should have been a boss fight like the Crystaline entity. I also think the ground battles should be a bit more realistic too, like the zombie apaclipse from Champions Online, once you fall you become part of the zombies to fight the remaining heroes...in a 10 to 20 player battle, you should be turned into a Borg when you fall and allowed to fight the remaining players with Borg powers. You could call this "The Siege" and it can take place inside a ship, or better yet your star base.
As for why they wanted Picard and the Enterprise so bad....Story Reason: they have assimilated many on the way there i suspect, maybe Picards name and the emterprise came up as a key strategic component to a simpler victory...My reason: Its the Picard! Whats sells more then watching the season end on a 2 parter where hes turned into a villain?
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
Yes, they are like a zombie movie, not very bright but they come in waves and you can easily be one, thats why they are so terrifying. PLus the Invincible cube Idea was cool, because like a kid, who wouldnt want to run into battle playing terminater...u have to admit, god mode is a very popular cheat in gaming history! The ships should be few but super powerful, because I myself like dramatic battles against a powerful boss. Like Gravitar from Champions Online. I grew up reading comics, and seeing Superman and Green lantern or the xmen face a powerful enemy together was always epic!
The best thing the powers that be could do to reestablish the Borg as terrifying would be to allow the Borg to do what they do best, adapt, by adapting a non-centralized command structure that ends the Queen. They've lost two onscreen so far, the last to devastating effect on the collective. There's got to be enough in the hive mind to see what needs to be done.
...logically? So the Borg couldn't just dump nanites into the air and assimilate everyone?
Here, let Michael C. Hall explain it to you because your mind is tiny Sollvax, I do love your attempts though sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnaTtsClgc4
So see, ultimately, to people on the surface of a planet, the Borg conquer without a shot ever being fired...but by all means, continue to believe the Borg are insignificant and that "rednecks with shotguns" would defeat them. They would be assimilated the second a Borg sphere flew over, or launched them from space.
And for the record, dumbest Star Trek villain is probably that rogue Ktarian faction that thought they could destroy Starfleet with a mind controlling video game. They were defeated in a single episode.
Very much so. Everything up to that point, including the Borg Queen, was nothing next to the gutting of the Borg in Voyager. At least Best of Both Worlds and First Contact still had entire fleets being eaten by the Borg before the Enterprise crew came up with a solution. In Voyager the Borg were reduced to to basically Cardassians with square ships. Basic villainous aliens of the week routinely outwitted and outmaneuvered at every turn by a lone Federation ship.
It was also Voyager that gave us the staggering idiocy of the Borg Transwarp Conduit, with an exit leading (literally) directly to Earth, but apparently rather than sending two cubes through that and guaranteeing the fall of Earth, they prefer to mess around with single cubes and elaborate time travel plots. :P
no because that simply does not work
nanites are vunerable little toys that do not actually work for more than a couple of seconds in earths atmosphere
the best nano tech in existence DIES when exposed to EMP or acid atmospheres
so not nanites would not work on a planet like earth (or anywhere else without a liquid atmosphere)
Here, let Michael C. Hall explain it to you because your mind is tiny Sollvax, I do love your attempts though sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnaTtsClgc4
ah the famous pervert film
yes heard about that
nanotech in the human body fails in MINUTES as the superior human immune system EATS them
actually assuming nanites work (which they don't) assimilation of even ONE class one telepath makes the borg a slave species
and Greeks with big knives
nah you are crediting the borg with INTELLIGENCE which they do not have
also as soon as someone became immune to nanites the borg are screwed
or as soon as they assimilate a telepath
And for the record, dumbest Star Trek villain is probably that rogue Ktarian faction that thought they could destroy Starfleet with a mind controlling video game. They were defeated in a single episode.
i blame janeway...there is the right way, and there is the jane-way
Instead of that mess, the last episode of Voyager should have had the Borg finding the female caretaker and try to assimilate her. Voyager defends her and in thanks, sends them home.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
The only reason the crew were able to prevail, was because they were not dealing with a cube, just a partially assimilated scout ship, and initially, only partially assimilated Tarkaleans. Had it been a regular cube, Archer and co would have been toast... Janeway was able to fight the Borg because the information Picard retained from his time as Locutus was then given to other officers in their training, and because she had Seven to give her other 'inside information' (and good old plot necessity, of course
I infact wouldnt mind seeing several senarios played out, even in books dealing with all the things the previous ships did. For example, imagine Janeway or Picard encountering the Gateway, or a rouge crewman with those lazer eyes, why not even the satelite storm from the motion picture....you wouldnt have a bald woman, but youd have abald Picard
They should make a "What If" style book or tv series, with Q messing with different outcomes instead of the Watcher, like Marvel Comics did.
Here was a race that didn't think at all in a way we as individuals could imagine, that only evaluated the worth of a civilization by its tools and technology, and had a total uninterest in organic life ("Q Who"). These Borg were relentless, without conscience, unconcerned with anything the organic crew could do or motivated by anything organic beings would be, and could not be negotiated with. Power, glory, greed, territory were nothing to them, their assimilation of other race's technology no more than a function similar to the gathering of food by an ant colony, with no more emotion or desire involved than that. Further, they were depicted as a race that simply overwhelmed any opposition any race known had put up to them. This was a glimpse into what Humanity might become if we gave up everything we call 'humane' in favor of logic and machine-like purpose, and no doubt it hit a bit too close to many people's fears.
Then, in an effort to make them more 'understandable', the producers and writers made the Borg decide to use a single person to 'embody' them in "Best of Both Worlds". This was actually not inconsistent with the prior concept of the Borg, as it highlighted just how different they were from what other aliens had been shown in ST. Nonetheless, it chipped away at the concept of an race incomprehensible by races of individuals and without understanding of them in return.
The most damaging blows, however, were the efforts to 'humanize' the Borg by introducing Hugh and the Borg Queen. These were completely at odds with the entire concept of the Borg, and were clearly an iron-gloved approach to making the Borg 'just like us' so viewers would identify with them. Thus were the Borg reduced to 'just another side of Humanity/just another alien of the week' instead of the great unknown danger that might be Humanity staring at its own fate.
Once the Borg Queen was in ST Canon, the concept of the Borg couldn't be undone back to what they were initially, and the contradictions and 'dumbing down' of them left them as a favorite 'generic villian' whenever a writer needed a foe for the regular characters who could be introduced without a need to plan for repercussions to the ongoing story situation (conflict with a Klingon or Romulan force would raise questions about why a war didn't start over it).
But were the Borg put back into the implacable, alien force that swept whole civilizations from the galaxy, I think you would not think them so dumb or laughable.
I guess this is one of my nerd moments, but maybe it does make sence they changed as they did begin to assimilate more human personalitys to thier collective consiousness. Thankfully they never assimilated Tiny Tim.
If they started to assimilate caitians that would be a metal coated cybernetic pounce. Imagine the large claw attachments, also giving the borg reflexes and hunting prowess! NEW BOSS! You could call him Nyan-nite of Borg
That I agree with, I did enjoy Regeneration for the fact that the Borg were scary again, also the reason the Borg only sent 1 ship to Earth in first contact is because they were in a war with Species 8472 at the same time.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius